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File: 68e3c56da215692⋯.jpg (73.13 KB, 664x474, 332:237, normaldayinRussia.jpg)

3db6cc No.529573

I was looking over the common heresies because I am a catechumen.

I noticed the perpetual virginity of Mary and wanted to know why the Bible says Jesus had siblings? I researched and I did note that often the translation of brother could refer to any relative; is this true?

Anyone is welcome to reply to this thread including those that don't believe it.

7dc2f0 No.529575

>>529573

If you are a Christian, I call you my brother. Did we crawl out of the same womb?


108eb7 No.529580

Matthew 12:10

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.


3db6cc No.529581

>>529575

I see what you're saying; but I can see both sides as making sense.

At the same time I know that translation can often muddle the meaning of words even in context. Yet why didn't the Early Church followers say that Mary had other children if they could read Greek?


3db6cc No.529584

>>529580

What about when the pharisees talk about Jesus and his brothers and sisters?


f41096 No.529585

>>529581

Tertullian did but he is practically a lone figure for the Ante-Nicene period and is a Latin father. In fact we still get voices later on from the Latin side against the perpetual virginity of Mary. In the latter context however unlike Tertullian, even those who deny the perpetual virginity does so to make Mary a model for married Christians and not just the ascetics. The affirmation of lifelong virginity implies Mary is only a model for ascetics and not the normal Christians. So the later denial of perpetual virginity has nothing to do with any protest against venerating Mary


2d79f1 No.529588

>>529573

They were either his step brothers/sisters from Joseph's previous marriage or his cousins. The protoevangelium of James talks about this stuff. The Eastern Orthodox Bible has a great apologetics essay on it.

Tbh the best reason to believe it is true is because the church dogmatically teaches it to be true. The church is the foundation of faith. One should approach theology not from a position of rejection of dogma but from a position of innate acceptance and then wishing to find out why it is true if so inclined

If you can't take dogma on faith then you cannot maintain the catholic faith and will fail instantly the moment you hear an unpalatable dogma


498b74 No.529589

>So Abram said to Lot, “Please let there be no strife between you and me, and between my herdsmen and your herdsmen; for we are brethren. (Gen. 13:8)

>Now when Abram heard that his brother [Lot] was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan. (Gen. 14:14)

We know that Lot is not Abraham's blood brother — he's Abraham's nephew. And yet, Abraham refers to him as his brother.

In the same way, Christ's brothers do not share in being sons of the Theotokos, but are still his brothers in love and familial bond.


86972f No.529592

>>529589

But you're not answering the question, did the Jesus Christ have physical half-brothers? Wasn't James the one who wrote the Book of James, physically born from Mary and Joseph thus making James the physical half-brother of Jesus Christ?


498b74 No.529594

>>529592

The Apostle James was the son of Joseph and was raised as a brother to Christ. He is not the son of the Theotokos by blood, but is still fully her child by virtue of motherly care and love.


86972f No.529597

>>529594

>The Apostle James was the son of Joseph and was raised as a brother to Christ. He is not the son of the Theotokos by blood, but is still fully her child by virtue of motherly care and love.

So who's the physical mother of the Apostle James?


7dc2f0 No.529598

>>529584

Technically the word used is "brethren", not "siblings". The pharisees were talking about Jesus's "ilk", "clan" or "kind". His followers were his "brethren" in the sense that members of a club are "brethren".


f41096 No.529599

>>529588

What is important to know is that the term for brother in the NT is used beyond just a simple designation of a blood relative. Matthew 5:22-24 uses the term "brother"(adelphos) as referring to "neighbor" for instance. In Mark, aldephoi can also denote step-brother (Mark 6:17-18). So in Mark 6:3 for instance where the brothers and sisters of Jesus is mentioned, they could be non blood relatives.


7dc2f0 No.529600

>>529594

I thought James was the son of Zebedee and Salome. Different James? I swear sometimes those ancient texts are so confusing with so many having the same names.


86972f No.529602

>>529599

All of us on /christian/ understand Matthew 5:22-24 and also Matthew 12:46-50. Yes, if we do the will of the Father, we are considered brothers and sisters to Jesus Christ, but what about the following verse:

<Matthew 13:55

<Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?


7dc2f0 No.529603

>>529597

Wait wait … got it.

James the Greater was son of Zebedee and Salome.

James the Lesser was son of Alphaeus.


86972f No.529604

>>529603

I think the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics know what we're talking about, but they're trying to obfuscate by bringing up something we already know and diverting the conversation. They need to explain Matthew 13:55, yes, we're referring to the James in that particular verse.


7dc2f0 No.529605

>>529602

Isn't the word used in Matt 13:55 actually more like "cousin"? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.


7dc2f0 No.529606

>>529604

Yeah, the James mentioned in 13:55 is the son of Clopas.

John 19:25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.


86972f No.529607

>>529605

>Isn't the word used in Matt 13:55 actually more like "cousin"?

No, look at the original manuscript

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/13/55/t_conc_942055

>ἀδελφός - a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother

And the context in the verse is with respect to the physical half-brothers of Jesus Christ (the children of Joseph and Mary).


7dc2f0 No.529608

>>529607

The word used is "adelphos", meaning a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. Not necessarily from the same womb.


86972f No.529610

>>529608

>The word used is "adelphos", meaning a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. Not necessarily from the same womb.

Yes, but adelphos could also mean from the same womb, that's the first definition and in this context it's pretty clear which definition it's referring to. Here's a larger chunk of the Scripture for context:

>Matthew 13:54-58

>Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.” And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.


7dc2f0 No.529611

>>529610

According to what you're saying, it would mean Mary and Joseph had MANY children (aren't all his sisters with us)?

>could also mean

Sort of like the English word "brother". It can mean "from the same womb", but it does not necessarily mean so.

The general consensus is that Jesus was Mary of Nazareth's only son. Unless you have some new evidence to bring to light?


f41096 No.529612

>>529610

>>529602

Again given that it could refer to "step brother" and the most likely probability that they are speaking in Aramaic, the term "brothers and sisters" there could easily just refer to non blooded relatives or something along the lines of "cousin". Nothing here really refutes my point at all.

For all we know, those could be from Mary's own sister who is also mentioned to be at the Cross. Or any of the other Marys apart from Mary Magdelene. So far you given no plausible or certain argument otherwise apart from ignoring other uses for "adelphoi".


8622a6 No.529613

The Bible says that Joseph was a widower doesn't it? It's pretty easy for Jesus to have brothers that way.


7dc2f0 No.529614

>>529610

Should also point out that "adelphos" is primarily translated to "brethren", not "brother". The plural of brother is not brethren, it's brothers. If I have 2 brothers, Craig and John, I don't say, "These are my brethren." Even back in the Elizabethan days, people said, "These are my brothers."

Adelphoi in the context of Matt 13:55 is to mean "members of the same club".


f41096 No.529618

I forgot to add that Mark's Gospel does not mention Joeseph at all when the villagers asked "is this not the son of Joseph and etc". While the other Gospels do indeed mention Joseph, which implies that he is dead which is what the most extensive discussion on this topic within an academic context points out(see Mary in the NT pg 64 where the authors note this). Given this, those adelphoi could easily be seen as half brothers from a previous marraige, an explanation Origen accepted and one the Protoevengelium also states. These two pre Nicene testimonies and the fact that the Protoevengelium was widespread and considered non heterodox with apologetic intent meant that the belief in a perpetual virginity is widespread early on and is also possibly used apologetically.


fd9bbb No.529620

>>529612

To believe that, you must assume that the original Greek manuscripts have it wrong.

>>529613

No it doesn't say that. Instead there is a notable absence of brothers in the Nativity narrative.


a4c521 No.529621

>>529604

>They need to explain Matthew 13:55, yes, we're referring to the James in that particular verse.

>Observe, he says, James and Joses are sons of Mary, and the same persons who were called brethren by the Jews. Observe, Mary is the mother of James the Less and of Joses. And James is called the less to distinguish him from James the greater, who was the son of Zebedee, as Mark elsewhere states, 「And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid. And when the sabbath was past, they bought spices, that they might come and anoint him.」 And, as might be expected, he says: 「What a poor and impious view we take of Mary, if we hold that when other women were concerned about the burial of Jesus, she His mother was absent; or if we invent some kind of a second Mary; and all the more because the Gospel of S. John testifies that she was there present, when the Lord upon the cross commended her, as His mother and now a widow, to the care of John. Or must we suppose that the Evangelists were so far mistaken and so far mislead us as to call Mary the mother of those who were known to the Jews as brethren of Jesus?」

>You say that the mother of the Lord was present at the cross, you say that she was entrusted to the disciple John on account of her widowhood and solitary condition: as if upon your own showing, she had not four sons, and numerous daughters, with whose solace she might comfort herself? You also apply to her the name of widow which is not found in Scripture. And although you quote all instances in the Gospels, the words of John alone displease you. You say in passing that she was present at the cross, that you may not appear to have omitted it on purpose, and yet not a word about the women who were with her. I could pardon you if you were ignorant, but I see you have a reason for your silence. Let me point out then what John says, John 19:25 「But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.」 No one doubts that there were two apostles called by the name James, James the son of Zebedee, and James the son of Alphæus. Do you intend the comparatively unknown James the Less, who is called in Scripture the son of Mary, not however of Mary the mother of our Lord, to be an apostle, or not? If he is an apostle, he must be the son of Alphæus and a believer in Jesus, 「For neither did his brethren believe in him.」 If he is not an apostle, but a third James (who he can be I cannot tell), how can he be regarded as the Lord's brother, and how, being a third, can he be called less to distinguish him from greater, when greater and less are used to denote the relations existing, not between three, but between two? Notice, moreover, that the Lord's brother is an apostle, since Paul says, Galatians 1:18-19 「Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days. But other of the Apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.」 And in the same Epistle, Galatians 2:9 「And when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars,」 etc. And that you may not suppose this James to be the son of Zebedee, you have only to read the Acts of the Apostles, and you will find that the latter had already been slain by Herod. The only conclusion is that the Mary who is described as the mother of James the Less was the wife of Alphæus and sister of Mary the Lord's mother, the one who is called by John the Evangelist 「Mary of Clopas,」 whether after her father, or kindred, or for some other reason.


f41096 No.529626

>>529620

My argument is contingent on how the original Greek was used and underlying context such as how the characters would speak Aramaic most likely. Again, I did not say Adelphoi does not mean blood relatives from the same mother but that its use is broad even within the manuscripts themselves all over the place. Early Christian evidence like the Protoevangelium is meant to testify to widespread orthodox belief on the perpetual virginity.

The broad usage of adelphoi is clear and there are a lot of possibilities to tie them to the other Marys or even children from a former marraige which is at least further made even more likely considering Joseph's early death


deeb9a No.529630

File: 0e7cd02e3ade5c3⋯.jpg (11.76 KB, 235x325, 47:65, saintthomasseeshowyoumakeb….jpg)

St. Thomas Aquinas explains this doctrine in Summa III q.28 a.3

Article 3. Whether Christ's Mother remained a virgin after His birth?

Objection 1. It would seem that Christ's Mother did not remain a virgin after His Birth. For it is written (Matthew 1:18): "Before Joseph and Mary came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Now the Evangelist would not have said this–"before they came together"–unless he were certain of their subsequent coming together; for no one says of one who does not eventually dine "before he dines" (cf. Jerome, Contra Helvid.). It seems, therefore, that the Blessed Virgin subsequently had intercourse with Joseph; and consequently that she did not remain a virgin after (Christ's) Birth.

Objection 2. Further, in the same passage (Matthew 1:20) are related the words of the angel to Joseph: "Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife." But marriage is consummated by carnal intercourse. Therefore it seems that this must have at some time taken place between Mary and Joseph: and that, consequently she did not remain a virgin after (Christ's) Birth.

Objection 3. Further, again in the same passage a little further on (Matthew 1:24-25) we read: "And" (Joseph) "took unto him his wife; and he knew her not till she brought forth her first-born Son." Now this conjunction "till" is wont to designate a fixed time, on the completion of which that takes place which previously had not taken place. And the verb "knew" refers here to knowledge by intercourse (cf. Jerome, Contra Helvid.); just as (Genesis 4:1) it is said that "Adam knew his wife." Therefore it seems that after (Christ's) Birth, the Blessed Virgin was known by Joseph; and, consequently, that she did not remain a virgin after the Birth (of Christ).

Objection 4. Further, "first-born" can only be said of one who has brothers afterwards: wherefore (Romans 8:29): "Whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of His Son; that He might be the first-born among many brethren." But the evangelist calls Christ the first-born by His Mother. Therefore she had other children after Christ. And therefore it seems that Christ's Mother did not remain a virgin after His Birth.

Objection 5. Further, it is written (John 2:12): "After this He went down to Capharnaum, He"–that is, Christ–"and His Mother and His brethren." But brethren are those who are begotten of the same parent. Therefore it seems that the Blessed Virgin had other sons after Christ.

Objection 6. Further, it is written (Matthew 27:55-56): "There were there"–that is, by the cross of Christ–"many women afar off, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto Him; among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee." Now this Mary who is called "the mother of James and Joseph" seems to have been also the Mother of Christ; for it is written (John 19:25) that "there stood by the cross of Jesus, Mary His Mother." Therefore it seems that Christ's Mother did not remain a virgin after His Birth.


deeb9a No.529632

File: 15a65fe8fa2fbde⋯.png (49.05 KB, 1789x246, 1789:246, perpetual virginity.png)

>>529630

On the contrary, It is written (Ezekiel 44:2): "This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it; because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it." Expounding these words, Augustine says in a sermon (De Annunt. Dom. iii): "What means this closed gate in the House of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that 'no man shall pass through it,' save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this–'The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it'–except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of angels shall be born of her? And what means this–'it shall be shut for evermore'–but that Mary is a virgin before His Birth, a virgin in His Birth, and a virgin after His Birth?"

I answer that, Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb ["Sacrarium Spiritus Sancti" (Office of B. M. V., Ant. ad Benedictus, T. P.), wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

Thirdly this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards.

(see also pic from other exemples)


47b4a7 No.529634

>>529612

>Again given that it could refer to "step brother" and the most likely probability that they are speaking in Aramaic, the term "brothers and sisters" there could easily just refer to non blooded relatives or something along the lines of "cousin". Nothing here really refutes my point at all.

But you're not making a point either, your statement is just as valid as mine and if we look at the original Greek manuscript you're right that it could go both ways, but the first definition is referring to physical siblings. Now if you read it in context, it's pretty clear (at least to me) it's referring to the physical half-brothers of Jesus Christ (children of Joseph and Mary) and not spiritual brothers or "step brother." I know you're trying to defend Mary in good faith (and frankly, this point doesn't really matter), but God's Word needs to hold precedence.


deeb9a No.529635

File: 585b6540f98f41e⋯.jpg (99.63 KB, 595x582, 595:582, from mama with lovw.jpg)

>>529632

Reply to Objection 1. As Jerome says (Contra Helvid. i): "Although this particle 'before' often indicates a subsequent event, yet we must observe that it not infrequently points merely to some thing previously in the mind: nor is there need that what was in the mind take place eventually, since something may occur to prevent its happening. Thus if a man say: 'Before I dined in the port, I set sail,' we do not understand him to have dined in port after he set sail: but that his mind was set on dining in port." In like manner the evangelist says: "Before they came together" Mary "was found with child, of the Holy Ghost," not that they came together afterwards: but that, when it seemed that they would come together, this was forestalled through her conceiving by the Holy Ghost, the result being that afterwards they did not come together.

Reply to Objection 2. As Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): "The Mother of God is called (Joseph's) wife from the first promise of her espousals, whom he had not known nor ever was to know by carnal intercourse." For, as Ambrose says on Luke 1:27: "The fact of her marriage is declared, not to insinuate the loss of virginity, but to witness to the reality of the union."

Reply to Objection 3. Some have said that this is not to be understood of carnal knowledge, but of acquaintance. Thus Chrysostom says [Opus Imperf. in Matth., Hom. 1: among the spurious works ascribed to Chrysostom] that "Joseph did not know her, until she gave birth, being unaware of her dignity: but after she had given birth, then did he know her. Because by reason of her child she surpassed the whole world in beauty and dignity: since she alone in the narrow abode of her womb received Him Whom the world cannot contain."

Others again refer this to knowledge by sight. For as, while Moses was speaking with God, his face was so bright "that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold it"; so Mary, while being "overshadowed" by the brightness of the "power of the Most High," could not be gazed on by Joseph, until she gave birth. But afterwards she is acknowledged by Joseph, by looking on her face, not by lustful contact.

Jerome, however, grants that this is to be understood of knowledge by intercourse; but he observes that "before" or "until" has a twofold sense in Scripture. For sometimes it indicates a fixed time, as Galatians 3:19: The law "was set because of transgressions, until the seed should come, to whom He made the promise." On the other hand, it sometimes indicates an indefinite time, as in Psalm 122:2: "Our eyes are unto the Lord our God, until He have mercy on us"; from which it is not to be gathered that our eyes are turned from God as soon as His mercy has been obtained. In this sense those things are indicated "of which we might doubt if they had not been written down: while others are left out to be supplied by our understanding. Thus the evangelist says that the Mother of God was not known by her husband until she gave birth, that we may be given to understand that still less did he know her afterwards" (Adversus Helvid. v).

Reply to Objection 4. The Scriptures are wont to designate as the first-born, not only a child who is followed by others, but also the one that is born first. "Otherwise, if a child were not first-born unless followed by others, the first-fruits would not be due as long as there was no further produce" [Jerome, Adversus Helvid. x]: which is clearly false, since according to the law the first-fruits had to be redeemed within a month (Numbers 18:16).

Reply to Objection 5. Some, as Jerome says on Matthew 12:49-50, "suppose that the brethren of the Lord were Joseph's sons by another wife. But we understand the brethren of the Lord to be not sons of Joseph, but cousins of the Saviour, the sons of Mary, His Mother's sister." For "Scripture speaks of brethren in four senses; namely, those who are united by being of the same parents, of the same nation, of the same family, by common affection." Wherefore the brethren of the Lord are so called, not by birth, as being born of the same mother; but by relationship, as being blood-relations of His. But Joseph, as Jerome says (Contra Helvid. ix), is rather to be believed to have remained a virgin, "since he is not said to have had another wife," and "a holy man does not live otherwise than chastely."

Reply to Objection 6. Mary who is called "the mother of James and Joseph" is not to be taken for the Mother of our Lord, who is not wont to be named in the Gospels save under this designation of her dignity–"the Mother of Jesus." This Mary is to be taken for the wife of Alphaeus, whose son was James the less, known as the "brother of the Lord" (Galatians 1:19).

tl;dr Mother of God is ever-virgin. Deal with it.


7dc2f0 No.529636

File: fda74fec1e62b3e⋯.gif (50.69 KB, 615x637, 615:637, 1.gif)

>>529630

>>529635

>tl;dr Mother of God is ever-virgin. Deal with it.


fd9bbb No.529638

>>529626

The people of Nazareth clearly didn't refer to Jesus's spiritual brethren. That should be clear from the context. The people of Nazareth also can't have talked about Jesus's broad circle of kinsmen, such as cousins, as that usage doesn't exist in Greek and would have been a mistake by the evangelist, even though the evangelist should have been in the position to know better.

But to talk about the actual point of the passage, I think the passage underlines how ordinary Jesus's family was, as perceived by Jesus's neighbors. Writing materials were expensive back then, so the evangelists had to be selective about what they included.


47b4a7 No.529640

>>529635

>tl;dr Mother of God is ever-virgin. Deal with it.

Or you could just read the Bible and accept God's Word as it is.


f41096 No.529644

>>529634

You do know that if someone has a half brother, that means the brother is from another father right?

And secondly, the possibility for those adelphois being not blood relatives of the same womb is more stronger compared to that of the view that they are Jesus' blood related brothers of the same womb.

Joseph is most likely dead at early on as Mark's Gospel given he is not mentioned as present at the cross or the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. This if I am not mistaken begins at Cana where no mention of blood related siblings are ever given nor Joseph or even when Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to Jerusalem when He was young. These raises the question of whether those aldephoi are even Jesus' own blood related brothers and sisters as at least they should be at the wedding. Thus kinship of these aldephoi would be more akin to cousins from available evidence.

Third is how the "until" or "firstborn" argument is very weak and only sounds plausible on the surface. Both of these do not imply or suggest that something necessarily comes after. Mary in the NT even points out a Tomb inscription in Greek about a mother who gave birth to her firstborn but died.


7dc2f0 No.529645

>>529640

Since you're illiterate, I'll help you out.

Everything in those posts is from scripture. It's in the Bible. It even cites all of its sources. Take 5 minutes and read it before sperging out. If you can read the Bible, then surely you can read a few paragraphs from Aquinas.


f41096 No.529650

>>529638

>that usage couldnt exist in Greek

Actually as I had proven, it can. I even provided verses here which is also echoed on the most extensive discussion on the issue, "Mary in the New Testament". So they could indeed be something like cousins or half siblings assuming the Protoevangelium is right.

The point of that passage where the villagers named Jesus' family is done in a negative way to undermine Him by focusing on their "ordinariness" as you said.


47b4a7 No.529654

>>529644

>the bible is fallible

Got it.


47b4a7 No.529655

>>529645

I don't need to read your sperg posts either, I just read the Bible. Why can't you just do the same thing instead of adding another layer on top of the Bible like the Mormons do?


f41096 No.529658

File: 26716ab335f53e0⋯.jpg (40.23 KB, 372x421, 372:421, 1505395692633.jpg)

>>529654

>not an argument


47b4a7 No.529659

File: 52f35c75c7f9bb1⋯.png (181.55 KB, 506x504, 253:252, 26716ab335f53e02a7866a39f2….png)

>>529658

Pic related is my argument. You're six steps away from walking into the depths of Hell.


f41096 No.529662

File: e1e6d298851751f⋯.jpg (69.1 KB, 1200x675, 16:9, 1505434489558.jpg)

>>529659

I laugh


7dc2f0 No.529673

>>529655

>I just read the Bible

No, you don't. You read an interpretation of a translation of the interpretation of a translation of a translation of a copy of a copy of a copy of an interpretation of a spoken narrative.

Why would you avoid scholars and church fathers?


4b4c8a No.529688

>>529640

I did. That's why I am Catholic. Sola Scriptura lead me to it as well to proclaim with God-breathed words that Sola Scripura is heresy and idiocy


37cc67 No.529690

>ITT: papists fumble over the clear contextual meaning of scripture because of their unbiblical dogma

(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST)

ca26b6 No.529692

>>529673

>bible is fallible

Head on over to https://blueletterbible.org, there you can read the Bible with the original manuscripts if you ever doubt. Also here's some Scripture for you in case you've missed it:

<2 Peter 1:20-21

<Above all, you do well if you recognize this: No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet’s own imagination, for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

inb4 get canned by catholic mods for citing Scripture like they did in the Middle Ages


7dc2f0 No.529697

>>529692

The Word is infallible. A printer is fallible. Printers make mistakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Bible

A rather famous example of a printer's error.


37cc67 No.529698

>>529693

People already raised the common points and it seems you've made up your mind earlier


567a4c No.529702

Good post>>529585


fd9bbb No.529706

>>529635

>>529632

>>529630

The problem with the above is that it's not honest argumentation. Rather the quoted text is going to great rhetorical lengths to make the Bible say the opposite of the plain meaning, because holding to the Catholic Church dogma makes that necessary.

When the argumentation goes along the lines of "derogatory to Christ's perfection" etc. with us just being meant to accept that Mary having children after Jesus's birth would have been derogatory somehow while being born in a stable wasn't, you know they're reaching, just like with those analogies about how Mary is like something else she isn't. The required complement is trying to find loopholes in actual New Testament passages so that their testimony against the perpetual virginity can be ignored.

It would be too long to address all the text in detail here.

>>529650

There are multiple levels to consider here. Yes, the villagers did try to undermine Jesus's claim to specialness. But for them to try to do so in the first place, means that Jesus's earthly family must have appeared normal enough. After all, the villagers didn't try to deceive any outsider, but just plain didn't believe based on their shared background information about Jesus's family's ordinariness. And for the evangelist to have included the event, it means that the evangelist too was making a point, because the villagers really did know something, even if their conclusion was all wrong.


86972f No.529708

>>529692

Dear mods,

I am sorry for falsely accusing you and my Catholic brothers. On my way to campus, the Lord put it in my heart to repent. I wasn't able to report my own post so please delete it and this one as well. Thank you.


c4daa8 No.529715

Matthew 13:55

Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?


a4c521 No.529716

>>529706

> After all, the villagers didn't try to deceive any outsider, but just plain didn't believe based on their shared background information about Jesus's family's ordinariness

<In Holy Scripture there are four kinds of brethren— by nature, race, kindred, love. Instances of brethren by nature are Esau and Jacob, the twelve patriarchs, Andrew and Peter, James and John. As to race, all Jews are called brethren of one another, as in Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy 15:12 「If your brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto you, and serve you six years; then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.」 And in the same book, Deuteronomy 17:15 「You shall in anywise set him king over you, whom the Lord your God shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set king over you; you may not put a foreigner over you, which is not your brother.」

<Moreover they are called brethren by kindred who are of one family, that is πατρία, which corresponds to the Latin paternitas, because from a single root a numerous progeny proceeds. In Genesis Genesis 13:8, 11 we read, 「And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray you, between me and you, and between my herdmen and your herdmen; for we are brethren.」 And again, 「So Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan, and Lot journeyed east: and they separated each from his brother.」 Certainly Lot was not Abraham's brother, but the son of Abraham's brother Aram. For Terah begot Abraham and Nahor and Aram: and Aram begot Lot. Again we read, Genesis 12:4 「And Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son.」

<Innumerable instances of the same kind are to be found in the sacred books. But, to be brief, I will return to the last of the four classes of brethren, those, namely, who are brethren by affection, and these again fall into two divisions, those of the spiritual and those of the general relationship. I say spiritual because all of us Christians are called brethren, as in the verse, 「Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity.」 And in another psalm the Saviour says, 「I will declare your name unto my brethren.」 And elsewhere, John 20:17 「Go unto my brethren and say to them.」 I say also general, because we are all children of one Father, there is a like bond of brotherhood between us all. Isaiah 66:5 「Tell these who hate you,」 says the prophet, 「you are our brethren.」

<I now ask to which class you consider the Lord's brethren in the Gospel must be assigned. They are brethren by nature, you say. But Scripture does not say so; it calls them neither sons of Mary, nor of Joseph. Shall we say they are brethren by race? But it is absurd to suppose that a few Jews were called His brethren when all Jews of the time might upon this principle have borne the title. Were they brethren by virtue of close intimacy and the union of heart and mind? If that were so, who were more truly His brethren than the apostles who received His private instruction and were called by Him His mother and His brethren? Again, if all men, as such, were His brethren, it would have been foolish to deliver a special message, 「Behold, your brethren seek you,」 for all men alike were entitled to the name. The only alternative is to adopt the previous explanation and understand them to be called brethren in virtue of the bond of kindred, not of love and sympathy, nor by prerogative of race, nor yet by nature. Just as Lot was called Abraham's brother, and Jacob Laban's, just as the daughters of Zelophehad received a lot among their brethren, just as Abraham himself had to wife Sarah his sister, for he says, Genesis 20:11 「She is indeed my sister, on the father's side, not on the mother's,」 that is to say, she was the daughter of his brother, not of his sister.


33b446 No.529724

File: b19ffed834087dd⋯.webm (9.28 MB, 640x480, 4:3, Why50percentofcatholicdog….webm)


fd9bbb No.529750

>>529716

None of that Old Testament Hebrew stuff matters here. Hebrew is not Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek text refers to Jesus's brothers in a way that in the context cannot be interpreted to mean spiritual brethren, and Hebrew/Aramaic-based speculations about cousins and such don't apply because Greek is its own language with its own rules.

Sure, the villagers likely were speaking Aramaic, but if you think the evangelist mistranslated the crucial word, you are not only saying that the Bible is wrong in the original language, but you're also implying that the evangelist made the error because he didn't know about Mary's perpetual virginity, which you are also claiming was common knowledge and a teaching dating back to the earliest church.

But if you think the evangelists made such errors in ignorance, what's even the point in finding legalistic loopholes in the strict definition of the word "until" and similar exercises? You could just say that yep, Matthew was wrong there too.


5353ea No.529757

>>529750

Jesus didn't speak Greek.


25666b No.529758

>>529757

he spoke King James English


95050f No.529782

>>529724

That's a pretty radical position. So you think the most important Christians in all of history were liars ? Can you get into this in terms of something you can back up or are you just trying to virtue signal about your special little system ?

I'll wait for your response darling


a4c521 No.529785

>>529750

>Sure, the villagers likely were speaking Aramaic, but if you think the evangelist mistranslated the crucial word, you are not only saying that the Bible is wrong in the original language, but you're also implying that the evangelist made the error because he didn't know about Mary's perpetual virginity, which you are also claiming was common knowledge and a teaching dating back to the earliest church.

I don't know where you get this? All you've done is assume your interpretation of the text is exactly what was meant to be understood, but that's evidently not the case, anymore than Jesus is the son of Joseph by blood. As St. Jerome writes

<It is clear that our Lord's brethren bore the name in the same way that Joseph was called his father: Luke 1:18 「I and your father sought you sorrowing.」 It was His mother who said this, not the Jews. The Evangelist himself relates that His father and His mother were marvelling at the things which were spoken concerning Him, and there are similar passages which we have already quoted in which Joseph and Mary are called his parents. Seeing that you have been foolish enough to persuade yourself that the Greek manuscripts are corrupt, you will perhaps plead the diversity of readings. I therefore come to the Gospel of John, and there it is plainly written, John 1:45 「Philip finds Nathanael, and says unto him, We have found him of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.」 You will certainly find this in your manuscript. Now tell me, how is Jesus the son of Joseph when it is clear that He was begotten of the Holy Ghost? Was Joseph His true father? Dull as you are, you will not venture to say that. Was he His reputed father? If so, let the same rule be applied to them when they are called brethren, that you apply to Joseph when he is called father.

>But if you think the evangelists made such errors in ignorance, what's even the point in finding legalistic loopholes in the strict definition of the word "until" and similar exercises? You could just say that yep, Matthew was wrong there too.

Because we believe everything the bible says. Included in this is the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin.


4b4c8a No.529788

>>529706

>The problem with the above is that it's not honest argumentation. Rather the quoted text is going to great rhetorical lengths to make the Bible say the opposite of the plain meaning, because holding to the Catholic Church dogma makes that necessary.

I will give you a quick round of history.

>incarnation happens

>everyone who knew Mary knew she was a virgin

>all of Church knew that

>suddenly Helvidius shows up and says "no, no, you all got it wrong for four centuries stight, I am the one who knows best"

>gets btfo by St. Jeome so hard that noone ever knows about him anymore

>eight centuries later St. Thomas gives, as he himself says "quick and short introdoction to theology" with sources so anyone who is willing can look it up himself.

>When the argumentation goes along the lines of "derogatory to Christ's perfection" etc. with us just being meant to accept that Mary having children after Jesus's birth would have been derogatory somehow while being born in a stable wasn't, you know they're reaching, just like with those analogies about

It would be. Contrary to being born in stable which was fitting for he was to "Shall be called a Nazarene"; which is taken from Isaiah 11:1: "A flower shall rise up out of his root"; for "Nazareth" is interpreted "a flower." Christ wished "to flower" by His holy life, not in His carnal birth. Therefore He wished to be fostered and brought up at Nazareth. But He wished to be born at Bethlehem away from home; because, as Gregory says (Hom. viii in Evang.), through the human nature which He had taken, He was born, as it were, in a foreign place–foreign not to His power, but to His Nature. And, again, as Bede says on Luke 2:7: "In order that He who found no room at the inn might prepare many mansions for us in His Father's house."

>how Mary is like something else she isn't.

Like making her ordinary woman who was pride enough to think that being a Mother of God was not enough?

>The required complement is trying to find loopholes in actual New Testament passages so that their testimony against the perpetual virginity can be ignored.

No such thing in NT. Nor in OT. The only direct quotation about Virginity of Mary in NT is this "How shall this be done, because I know not man?" which was already proven to totally btfo not-virgin heresy while the best that hertics can bring up is easily understood with light of true faith that Apostles given us.


f41096 No.529823

>>529706

Except as we had seen and so does the most significant NT scholarship on the issue, Joseph was dead then. The reason for the mention of the brothers and sisters are simple. They happened to be there at the time as the villagers were referring to who the human father of Jesus is and his family. The Semitic context must be also taken into account here since the villagers are most likely gonna be speaking Aramaic.

And those who deny perpetual virginity must answer the question of why the adelphoi werent at the wedding at Cana for instance and where were they during the childhood of Jesus we do get.

>>529750

You do know the Apostles would quote from the Greek OT right? And adelphoi had been used there is well in the way which I had described. Beyond the meaning of "blood sibling from same mother". Even Mary in the NT made this clear too. And given that the Apostles were Jews and Semitic, it does not do justice to kick them out from this background simply because the inclusion of it does not satisfy your concerns


f41096 No.529831

File: 0e0ecb1711f7d28⋯.gif (116.53 KB, 480x270, 16:9, 1505567536907.gif)

>>529724

This debate confirms my suspicion of James White's ignorance of academia and dishonest use of historical sources. When Latin authors said Mary didnt remain virgin, it was an affirmation that Mary is a model not just for ascetics and is a model for everybody. The failure of White to mention this context entails him trying to tell us that there are some Reformed Baptist tier Christians who denied Mary worship.

And we also get to see a whole rant about how the Fathers should not be consulted and instead only Scripture. So we see that White is telling us that going to the fathers are bad for doctrinal aid.

And also…saying that Odes of Solomon and the Protoevengelium are Gnostic with no reference except being triggered by one part of the Protoevengelium is not proof or argument that they are Gnostic. Most scholars today agree both are orthodox in nature.

Unfortunately, the Catholic side didnt fare too well here and also like White, is ignorant. Important evidence like the New Eve motiff, Athanasius mention of liturgical commemoration of Mary or how her veneration is also a part of the arguments against Nestorius (evident in the Five Tomes against Nestorius) and also, the oldest prayer to Mary that is found which dates to the pre-nicene period.

If the Catholic side wants a development of doctrine approach, their best bet is to say that Marian Dogmas like the Immaculate Conception sprang up from early Christian interest in Mary.

Mary in the New Testament is the source for information about Mary from a Biblical standpoint.

And also,

Mary: Glimpses of the Mother of Jesus

Mary in the NT is a Protestant-Catholic collaboration which also tends to be cautious and even reject some aspects of Catholicism's intepretation whilst presenting a high view of Mary. The latter book is Protestant but also arrives at a high Marian view


c4daa8 No.529833

File: e82367c65c787a0⋯.png (41.77 KB, 432x457, 432:457, fd75e5676.png)

>>529690

>ITT: getting yourself banned without even bringing up 1 Corinthians 7:5

>ITT: the jesuit strategy of pretending to be on the edge of accepting something and then pretending to be convinced by their friend's arguments

>ITT: eisegeting a theoretical Greek translation of the Old Testament for clues while ignoring Matthew 5:18 and Luke 16:17 telling us it's in Hebrew.


fd9bbb No.529834

>>529788

But for some reason none of the New Testament writers express knowledge of Mary's perpetual virginity, and some of them imply the contrary. So clearly not everyone in the church knew. Jesus's biographers didn't appear to know and indeed wrote passages about non-metaphorical brothers and sisters, and that should be a huge red flag.

And then there are all those hypotheticals about proper holiness that get expressed with perfect certainty. Even near the end of his ministry Jesus ate with whores and publicans. For Mary it would have been prideful to think that she was too good to have normal relations with her husband, who had waited patiently. Siblings were also part of allowing Jesus to have a normal human childhood. He came to Earth to live as a human. He wasn't treated as an object of worship by his family while he was alive, and this is supported by multiple Biblical passages.

And this thread was about Mary's perpetual virginity, not initial virginity.

>>529798

It's a matter of engaged to be married vs. actually married. Do not confuse the two. Mary was a virgin in the beginning because she hadn't married Joseph yet. They didn't even live together or anything like that. Back then it wasn't the custom to try out how it goes with different partners.


f41096 No.529837

File: 4fa4dbc63b90260⋯.jpg (244.33 KB, 1698x1200, 283:200, 15167573_1027550994034706_….jpg)

>>529833

>ignores the fact that multiple Hebrew versions exist

>ignores Baptist Craig Evans who also accepted the NT does cite from the Greek OT

>tries to shove away important Semitic, linguistic and use of Biblical scholarship

>provides zero input whatsoever


a4c521 No.529842

>>529834

>and some of them imply the contrary

You mean you interpret them to imply the contrary, where no implication exists.

>So clearly not everyone in the church knew

Everybody did, however some people twist scripture and ignore tradition to get heretical views, like denying the perpetual virginity.

>Jesus's biographers didn't appear to know and indeed wrote passages about non-metaphorical brothers and sisters, and that should be a huge red flag.

They also called Joseph His father, is Joseph now the father by blood of Jesus? Again, as Saint Jerome writes

<The only alternative is to adopt the previous explanation and understand them to be called brethren in virtue of the bond of kindred, not of love and sympathy, nor by prerogative of race, nor yet by nature. Just as Lot was called Abraham's brother, and Jacob Laban's, just as the daughters of Zelophehad received a lot among their brethren, just as Abraham himself had to wife Sarah his sister, for he says, Genesis 20:11 「She is indeed my sister, on the father's side, not on the mother's,」 that is to say, she was the daughter of his brother, not of his sister.

<tell me, how is Jesus the son of Joseph when it is clear that He was begotten of the Holy Ghost? Was Joseph His true father? Dull as you are, you will not venture to say that. Was he His reputed father? If so, let the same rule be applied to them when they are called brethren, that you apply to Joseph when he is called father.

Some previous marriage or being cousins by Mary of Clopas is most likely.

>For Mary it would have been prideful to think that she was too good to have normal relations with her husband, who had waited patiently

On the contrary,

>That chastity in the married state is God's gift, is shown by the most blessed Paul, when, speaking on this very subject, he says: 「But I would that all men were even as I myself: but every man has his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.」 1 Corinthians 7:7 Observe, he tells us that this gift is from God; and although he classes it below that continence in which he would have all men to be like himself, he still describes it as a gift of God.

St Augustine goes on further to write

>But God forbid that the nuptial bond should be regarded as broken between those who have by mutual consent agreed to observe a perpetual abstinence from the use of carnal concupiscence. Nay, it will be only a firmer one, whereby they have exchanged pledges together, which will have to be kept by a special endearment and concord—not by the voluptuous links of bodies, but by the voluntary affections of souls. For it was not deceitfully that the angel said to Joseph: 「Fear not to take unto you Mary your wife.」 Matthew 1:20 She is called his wife because of her first troth of betrothal, although he had had no carnal knowledge of her, nor was destined to have. The designation of wife was neither destroyed nor made untrue, where there never had been, nor was meant to be, any carnal connection.


c580c2 No.529987

>>529588

I think this thread demonstrates very well the importance of taking dogma and church teaching on faith. All these protestants have no faith in god and only hear what they want to hear (which for some strange reason was that Mary wasn't ever virgin)


80c6d0 No.529990

>>529575

Some people have already touched the topic but I'll elaborate too.

The word used when Jesus is talking about his "brothers" is "Adelphoi"

This word means "brother", but was used in a non-blood related context.

Why you ask?

Well Greek (and lots of other ancient languages) do not have a word for nephew or cousin.

The word adelphoi was used for blood-brothers, friends, nephews, cousins, actual blood-related brothers and sometimes even allies.

Why I believe that the context here was not blood related is because I believe the old Church Fathers could speak and understand old Greek better than some guy in a costume of the 21st century.


fd9bbb No.530013

>>529987

No faith in God? I know the Roman Catholic Church puts its own dogma and tradition above the Bible, but… I have trouble putting this into words.

Protestants don't believe that the Church Fathers were infallible prophets. The Church Fathers didn't make the cut for the Bible for a reason, and the reason was that they weren't considered trustworthy enough to be included.

>>529990

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/definitionlookup?type=begin&q=cousin&target=greek

First cousin: ἀνεψιός

Second cousins: δισέκγονοι

Homer mentions cousins, so the word is not some modern innovation.


a4c521 No.530014

>>530013

>The Church Fathers didn't make the cut for the Bible for a reason, and the reason was that they weren't considered trustworthy enough to be included.

The reason they aren't scripture is because the Holy Spirit didn't speak through them. This does not change whether their arguments are correct or not, and this does not change whether Tradition is valid or not. So far all you've done is show that a passage can be interpreted in such a way as to mean Mary was not a perpetual virgin. However, that is all you've done. You haven't actually proved it must be interpreted in that way. Maybe because you can't?


eec531 No.530015

>>530013

>Homer mentions cousins, so the word is not some modern innovation.

Homer wrote in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Greek

While apostles in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek

>No faith in God? I know the Roman Catholic Church puts its own dogma and tradition above the Bible, but… I have trouble putting this into words

That we are right and your interpretation is wrong? Try starting with "I am sorry"

>

Protestants don't believe that the Church Fathers were infallible prophets. The Church Fathers didn't make the cut for the Bible for a reason, and the reason was that they weren't considered trustworthy enough to be included.

<This is Lutheran view on History

Luther himself hold that Fathers are to be venerated as real saints and great theologians that do not erred. And more importantly, he hold that any of arguments you present against perpetual virginity are laughable.


f41096 No.530024

>>530013

There is indeed an instance in one of the Pauline epistles where a different term apart from adelphoi is used for cousin. But this is only an instance and Scripture attests to a broad usage of "adelphoi" apart from denoting blood siblings with the same mother. So the use of "adelphoi" referring to the brothers and sisters of Jesus as other relatives is still possible and isnt something foreign. Especially given Semitic context of the place that narration.

Regardless the early death and silence of Joseph and the lack of mention of these siblings at imporant events like the Wedding at Cana for one seems rather odd if Joseph was still alive and those are indeed other born of Mary.


0b7fd5 No.530044

ITT: 1800 years of scholars, theologians, great orators, thinkers, debaters, and historians are WRONG! I'm smarter than they are.


237221 No.535716

It says somewhere that Jesus is the first born son of Mary so that's implying there is a second. Also why the hell would Mary even remain a virgin? Especially since she got married.


237221 No.535719

>>530381

>How can you prove a pastor/priest wrong if they argue their interpretation is correct

How can you argue what the pope said is right? It's just your interpretation of what he said.


c4daa8 No.535777

>>535719

Never heard an answer to this one yet.


f63315 No.535834

>>535716

No, you are incorrectly inferring the implication. The use of first born is important because under mosaic law all firstborn sons are consecrated to the priesthood like Jesus was. It's basically emphasising that Jesus was a priest.

>21st century american tries to apply his personal cultural and linguistic standards to 1st century judea


f63315 No.535835

>>535716

>doesn't know things like why Mary would stay a virgin

>claims to know Mary was not ever virgin

Why do protestants with a primitive decadent grasp of Christianity always insist on their personal half baked interpretation even when they acknowledge they don't know things. Read protoevangelium of James for answers


f63315 No.535838

>>535719

Because Jesus personally appointed the first pope St Peter as the rock of the church and gave him the keys to heaven and the power to bind and loose and all popes have come from St Peter in an unbroken line of succession and the holy spirit guides and speaks through the seat of peter and the church.

Pastor Jim on the other hand appointed himself.


eb42af No.535844

Remember rule 2:

2. Interactions must be for the sake of Charity. Post made in the spirit of disruption or spite could earn you a short to permanent ban.


d3c5af No.535850

>>535777

It's because they literally can't answer it. This argument can only be used to support epistemic solipsism. It's really an argument against external sources of knowledge, not sola scriptura.


991001 No.535857

>>535850

It's called knowing english, not taking stuff oit of context of the chapter, interpreting it with other books in the Bible.


991001 No.535859

>>535838

It never says anything about people coming after him. Also it's mentioned literally one time ever if it actually mattered it would be more. Also the Bible says you can figue oit all doctrine wothout mans help.


991001 No.535861

>>535834

>>535835

>like Jesus was

Does it say that?

Also there would be absolitely zero reason why Mary would ever remain a virgin. The prophecy just says she will be a birgin when giving birth to Jesus and says mothing about her remaining


d34d1a No.536213

If Mary was a virgin, then I pity Joseph.


3115af No.536225

>sitting in Bible as History class

>professor says The Holy Mother was a prostitute

>"Oh, it's in the Talmud!"

Opinion discarded, why the fuck do people even bother with that book?


c4daa8 No.536230

>>535859

For every word out of the Pope's mouth you get a thousand different interpretations. And no Biblical assurance like 2 Peter 1:20 about any of them, because 2 Peter 1:20 only applies to Scripture.


53d423 No.536244

>>536230

???

The Pope has the ability to make authentic, authoritative statements, do not grant the issue with definitive authorities that Protestant Sects have with Roman Catholicism.


c22220 No.536666

>>535716

>Jesus is the first born son of Mary so that's implying there is a second.

I don't see how that follows. Did the final plague pass over all the sons of egypt who did not have younger brothers?




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