/a/ - Animu & Mango

>>853275

>Dragon Ball Z

>implying everything after Frieza saga isn't fanfiction

Andrdoids saga and pre-perfect Cell was an interesting spinoff but everything after is shit.

>>853284

Namek finished Goku's character development, but it shafts others. Vegeta's story is unfinished, Gohan's story is unfinished, Piccolo's story is unfinished.. and so are Krillin, Yamcha and Tien's.

Ending it at Cell is much better, everyone actually gets a happy ending.

>Goku is now dead and lives in heaven with gods

>Gohan takes over the torch as defender of earth, the new MC

>Vegeta has finally come to terms with being a good guy and settles down with his family

>Trunks goes back to his own timeline to finish the androids there

>Piccolo and Kami are one being again

>Krillin settles with his cyber girlfriend

>Yamcha pursues a succesful sports career

>Tien continues to train and meditate with Chiaotzu

>>853287

Because they're fun.

>>853275

>Only canon

Define.

>>853287

>Sr.Nigger.

Bump

>>854353

The really funny part is that this backward look actually completely changes the meaning of that scene. At that point Yamcha was NOT a useless jobber; he was one of Earth's strongest fighters, and it was completely expected that he'd be able to go toe-to-toe with these new enemies. Then, suddenly, he just gets killed in an instant. It immediately shows that the threat this time is far bigger, and the stakes are higher, and that people WILL die. It's meant to be a jaw-dropping shock for the audience. But anyone who knows how Yamcha eventually turns out, going back and watching that scene will just shrug it off, "Oh yeah, the loser got himself killed? Big surprise..."

In fact, the meaning of the entire first half of that arc is rendered inert; the audience now goes into it in full knowledge of the "everyone will get their asses kicked until Goku shows up" meme that the show turned itself into. There can't be any dramatic tension because they'd already know how it's going to go.

>>854386

Hasn't Yamcha been jobbing since the first tournament?

>>854351

I always liked Yamcha. Tien at least gets his moment in Z when he Kikohos Cell into the ground. Yamcha gets nothing. Nothing. The way he left always felt kind of sour because it seems like all of his friends only grow more disappointed in him until they're to the point where they don't even bother defending him when Vegeta puts him down. We don't see him ever improve. Was there even a single Wolf Fang Fist in Z?

>>853285

Yeah DBZ after Cell arch just becomes a tragic story of decline for everyone but Goku. Gohan squanders all of his potential and seems to just forget why he ever fought for the Earth against Cell. Piccolo has to fucking beg. Vegeta essentially goes insane. Chi Chi gets brutally murdered in front of everyone. I hated the Buu arc so much for how many lines were crossed and how dirty everything felt. That wasn't a valiant fight at all.

>>854386

See I read Dragon Ball as a kid and got into Z pretty late into the game so I never saw the scene that way. I just thought that Toriyama had developed a hateboner for Yamcha since he fucked his waifu. That definitely makes a lot more sense.

>>853276

>>853275

>>853277

>>853278

We told you these fan fiction charts belong elsewhere >>>/reddit/

>>853285

>>854422

>muh cell arc

That saga was fucking poorly written trash that's played seriously, be it Gohan suddenly made as a hero while sitting most of the beginning arc out doing fuck all or the fact that the time travel shit makes absolutely no sense and is hastily written off because Trunks traveled to a different "time line" from his own.

>waaah the buu arc is shit

Another mark of Toonami fags who don't understand Dragon Ball. Buu arc was a welcome return to Toriyama's comedic roots, as well as the fact that it basically took the piss out of how DBZ became this badly written drama, crawling up its own ass with intergalactic "lore" that Toriyama isn't known for writing. Shit like Super Saiyan kids, power ups that backfire (Z-Sword getting broke, Super Saiyan 3 being a colossal waste of ki, Gotenks being a brat, etc.) and a gluttonous pink blob for a villain are clear indicators of the arc's satirical bent.

>GT and Super are shitty fan-fiction and do not belong in this thread.

GT is shitty fanfiction, Super is good author-approved and influenced fanfiction that delivers some things better than the Z arcs. I'm not going to argue if they're fanfiction or not though, because they absolutely are.

>>854351

I miss this style of fight so much.

>>854426

The buu arc wasn't satirical in the least and didn't return to shit. GT, on the other hand, was a nice return to form for the series.

I wanted Pan, Trunks and Uub to be more relevant in GT and competent. I wanted Gohan to fuck shit up with his sword. Both times. What was with giving him swords but then doing nothing? At least Trunk wrecked shit with his sword.

>>854441

>What was with giving him swords but then doing nothing?

In the Buu arc's case, it was just another means at poking fun of DBZ, specifically having this big power up that will destroy the villain only for it to backfire as a gag.

Reminder that Amuro played Yamcha. It was one of his favorite roles.

>>854490

Oops.

<We're *not* arguing about one's individual sense for humor.

Again, keep trying kid. Maybe one day you'll actually finish DBZ.

>>854490

Whether you're right or not, you're a fucking asshole and don't belong here.

>>854419

He at least apperead to be on par against Tien and Krilin, only Goku, Jackie and later Roshi ewre leaps above him.

>>854576

>waaaaaaaaaaaaaah you're mean!

You can take your sensitive fee fees back to >>>/reddit/

I said before that I liked Beerus but I realized that I only liked how Planet Vegeta was fucked even if they beat Frieza. I personally didn't have a problem with the Buu arc although it could be a lot better. I think that Goku should stay dead if it means no DBS. I would accept a fucking reboot at this point. Not even Dragon Ball Evolution made me upset about the series but DBS did.

>>854351

>subfag

>>854386

Uhh, Yamcha STILL is one of the strongest humans on earth.

Yamcha/Tien/Krillin are still super humans in DBZ.

>>855278

Imagine being this assblasted for having shit taste.

>likes buu saga

>prefers jap version

>prefers goku sounding like a grandma

Get bullied, subtrash.

>>855284

I dislike all of Z and the nip version is great.

The shit taste is you.

>>855284

I've watched DBZ in 4 different languages and english is easily the worst one.

>>855272

Well, I meant back when that actually MEANT something. You know, back when Goku was only like five times stronger than the humans, not five million times. Now that the Saiyans have become LITERAL Gods, being the world's strongest human is no more impressive than being its strongest termite. No amount of Super plot fuckery can change the fact that Roshi has a canon power level of like 100.

>>855383

>No amount of Super plot fuckery can change the fact that Roshi has a canon power level of like 100.

Yet Super gave him a big moment using Super plot fuckery. It felt like the writers were debating on how the series was going to end thus all of the worthless foreshadowing that didn't go anywhere.

>>855383

>No amount of Super plot fuckery can change the fact that Roshi has a canon power level of like 100.

They could have potential unleashed everyone before ToP and the other characters still shouldn't perform as well as they did in the tournament recruitment episodes.

>>855564

In hindsight, maybe he just felt Krillin's power level diminish to nothing. But either way, the whole sequence is really contrived. "Hey, I left my plot device somewhere that's not here." "Oh, I'll just go over there all by myself." "Okay, surely nothing bad will happen at this time!" "Of course not, that would be silly!"

>>855552

This was mentioned Goku had his rematch with Tao Pai Pai. This also applies to Goku and Krillin. It could be assumed that it an issue of density rather than size.

>>855564

Sensing Ki is a common martial art ability on Earth. He hasn't quite learned that yet but it can be assumed to be that. In DBS (manga), Future Trunks said it was an Earth exclusive ability (probably to give Earth a special trait or something).

On the topic of satire, there seems to be a popular perception that the movie "Dear White People" was a jab at SJWs and general race baiting. The creators basically said that it was a satire on how White people thought that they weren't racist anymore. Basically, going around saying that something is clearly satire and saying that everyone who doesn't see it as a very specific interpretation is a retarded argument.

The only people arguing that anyone thinks Dragon ball (specifically DBZ) is perfect are Superfags. This video explains the whole "Goku being selfish" thing better than that furry nigger.

I like the idea of DBO as a post Z timeline but it has too much excuse plot and I don't think that there are enough Saiyans to make everyone part saiyan.

How is it possible that the Super manga is executing the tournament worse than the anime? I think I'd rather Toei's team and Toyotaro be left to managing the series rather than Toriyama. Seeing as Toei had most of the good ideas, regardless of shit filler and budget episodes.

>>855603

>In DBS (manga), Future Trunks said it was an Earth exclusive ability (probably to give Earth a special trait or something).

I forgot to mention that Demon King Piccolo genocided most of the martial artists of Earth prior to the events of Dragon Ball so maybe Earthlings are suppose to be closer to one of those "ones with weird powers" races. Also, there is just plain magic. I don't mind a small sub-race of "half"-Saiyans but I like the idea of Earthlings being its own race. A mean the strongest form in DBZ wasn't even a Saiyan form so was Ultra Instinct in DBS but they gave Goku white hair and the idea is super gay.

>>855622

I think the fights we got in Super were generally better, even if some of them were totally shit (Tien's). This latest chapter skips over the majority of Gohan's fight with Kefla and has him get taken out at the same time as her. It's a bit of a let-down after the last chapter where Gohan stepped up looking like he was gonna beat some ass. I did appreciate Roshi's lesson, that was a good addition, but Goku getting a quick pep talk and then tapping into UI was a little too sudden. I actually prefer the anime where Goku fucked his own shit up multiple times in an attempt to touch Jiren, the whole getting eaten by his own spirit bomb and needing to borrow energy to fight was a lot more enjoyable. It seems like the manga is just rushing things along, instead of trimming the fat and enhancing the story.

>>855622

>For the RoF, manga > movie > anime.

The fuck? What kind of retard opinion is this? Resurrection F doesn't even have a full manga adaption. It stops before we even see Golden Freeza and Super never bothered with it.

>>855758

>Resurrection F doesn't even have a full manga adaption.

I wasn't talking about the RoF tie-in manga; I was talking about this >>855622 I'm basically saying that RoF was incredibly shit arc that cutting out entirely is an improvement and the same goes for ToP.

>>855593

>literally no argument

>only other argument was you're a meanie

You really aren't helping your case, let it go.

>>855284

>You can only like this much of Dragon Ball and with the dub and you're all the same!

>grandma goku meme

Buufag here, illiterate dubcucks belongs on >>>/reddit/

>>853285

>Krillin settles with his cyber girlfriend

This went against everything in Krillin's character. Krillin's life was fighting. I liked how well the romance was done, but it came out of nowhere and before you know it Krillin is growing his hair out, giving up training and still fades into irrelevancy. Krillin could have become what Piccolo was to Gohan for Goten and Trunks would be more appropriate, or just something smart related to martial arts. Since Goku is a god beyond the scope of what he learned pre timeskip, Krillin could be Roshi's successor. But Krillin's "arc" shouldn't really have an ending.

>>855788

>Krillin's life was fighting

So was Vegeta's. Finding a girl and having kids has that effect on men; suddenly nothing else in the world matters. It was actually very genre-savvy of Krillin to "settle down", since he realized that with the god-like power levels being thrown around, pretty much any battle was just going to end up with him getting himself pointlessly killed. And despite Dragonballs being a thing, I have to assume dying is VERY UNPLEASANT. It's like a guy who spends his childhood dedicated to football, has some success in high school and college, and then goes to the NFL and not only isn't really good enough, but keeps getting injured. You can't fault him for making the very rational choice to quit and do something else with his life. That's actually a very realistic take for a shounen, where usually a character only has to try EXTRA HARD to succeed at absolutely anything.

>>856000

This.

Krillin and Yamcha pretty much gave up and stopped trying after the Cell saga.

They both retired from frighting. Yamcha sported cool yellow clothes and became a car mechanic or some shit. I'm not a fan of Krillin's hair though, it looks fucking terrible.

Only Tien continued training and meditating, because it's part of his personality.

>>856324

>I could create a Spirit Bomb using God Ki and absorb it to gain God powers

Goku did absorb a Spirit Bomb in Movie 7, except instead of it being God powers it was just a really powered-up Super Saiyan.

But as for AoE techniques, they're few and far between in Dragonball. Despite the fact that a Kamehameha can destroy an entire planet, it seems that if it doesn't directly hit you (ie: if you dodge six inches to the side of the beam), you're completely okay, whereas getting hit by it melts you. This flies in the face of literally every law of physics; a ball of energy capable of turning a planet to dust should be so fucking energetic that merely creating one would be like igniting a fusion bomb: everyone within several miles (including the user) would be immediately vaporized from the release of heat energy and the resulting shockwave.

But hey, it's fiction; who cares? If you can dodge someone's ki attacks you're fine, so AoE really isn't possible unless you produce so goddamn many ki balls there isn't space enough to dodge between them.

>>856352

Even if you AoE'd Ultra Instinct, they'd just levitate and parry the explosion somehow. UI, at least in the anime, is an excuse for Goku to bullshit his way through everything.

>>856352

>Goku did absorb a Spirit Bomb in Movie 7, except instead of it being God powers it was just a really powered-up Super Saiyan.

I'm just saying how would people think about using their abilities if they became Dragon Ball characters. You basically think of a bullshit idea that has a loose tie to an existing thing in the series and bam new power up. I mean Future Trunks can pull a new move out his ass. Even Krillin made up his "No Ego Zone" by just calming down.

>But as for AoE techniques, they're few and far between in Dragonball.

Kikoho

>>856389

>Even if you AoE'd Ultra Instinct, they'd just levitate and parry the explosion somehow.

That is why I said corner him first. Also, you can't parry an AoE attack. That is fucking point of an AoE attack.

>>856440

Are you implying that cropping somehow negates the white balancing?

>>856458

Cropping is in no way forgivable at any time. And why don't you just put filters on everything you watch?

>>856440

B-but muh widescreens!

>>856391

>Kikoho

It makes a square hole about 10 meters across. Never seen any larger than that. Also doesn't destroy the Earth even when pointed at the Earth, which is WEIRD. Either way, still no sweat to dodge it.

>>856475

Do you even understand what white balancing is you dumb cunt?

>>856458

>It's okay that I see less of the frame, because now everything looks more like it was colored on a computer instead of hand-painted cels!!

Both are drawbacks.

>>856633

Don't patronize me, shithead; I know very well why it was that size when it was used in the Budokai. But my point was that it was the same size when he used in on Cell, so therefore it's presumably always the same size. If he could have made it bigger, why wouldn't he? And as badass as it was, it was also complete nonsense, and completely pointless, and accomplished nothing. It was like Toriyama just wanted Tien to do something cool, and picked something out of a hat, but couldn't be bothered to make it actually affect the plot.

>>856440

Kai is awful.

>Ugly ms paint "flash" graphics that appear in random scenes, jarring with the original anime style

>Shit intro

>Shit/non-existent music

>Great filler removed (Kid Gohan's adventures, Gohan vs Vegeta, Yamcha in x300 gravity, Piccolo driving cars, etc) and in consequence the story feels rushed. If I want a tl;dr version of DBZ i'd read the manga

Overall the dub is better, but some voices are completely ruined. Gohan sounds like an annoying girl, and Piccolo sounds less threatening.

DBZA episode 60 is out

>>856995

>Don't patronize me, shithead; I know very well why it was that size when it was used in the Budokai.

Then don't act like a smart ass about something that can be easily explained as: he was conserving energy (which he explicitly said to himself before he vaporized the entire ring in the original Dragon Ball), he isn't strong enough to, it wouldn't make it stronger so he had no reason to, he needed time to adjust the size, and/or Toriyama is just making a call back to it. You sound like that retard that said it was useless for Krillin to learn the Spirit Bomb because he will get one-shot. Spirit Bomb has always been a "teamwork" ability. No shit someone will get his ass beat if he just stands around holding his hands up in the air for minutes while a fight is going on. Wouldn't it make more sense to have your strongest fighter fend off the enemy then have a weaker teammate charge an attack that doesn't seem to be reliant on the user's physical strength?

>>857321

You're a filthy Toriyama apologist. Conserving energy my ass; literally nothing in Dragonball works that way. And any attack powerful enough to so much as make Cell feel an itch would be enough to blow up the Earth if it hit it. Why would the Kikoho be any different? It defies even the internal reasoning of the manga.

>>857832

I was talking about why he didn't make it as big as the Grand Canyon, retard. Besides, the Kikoho isn't a fucking beam attack like the Kamehameha. It is an instantaneous flash.

>You're a filthy Toriyama apologist.

Like the time that I said that DBS was complete dogshit? Or when I said Ultra Instinct is gay? Or the time that I said DBS is for Z-Fags that just want DBZ 2: Electric Boogaloo?

>>857872

Fine, you're only an apologist about the parts of Dragonball you actually liked and have a nostalgia boner for. Happy?

>It is an instantaneous flash

No, it's not. There's a clear delay.

>>857953

>No, it's not. There's a clear delay.

Between shots. You don't see an energy beam racing toward its target. Are you going to say artificial light doesn't travel as fast natural light because you have to flick a switch? Maybe stop being a retarded goldfish that can't read context based on the previous posts?

>Fine, you're only an apologist about the parts of Dragonball you actually liked and have a nostalgia boner for. Happy?

Are you one of those fags that think that DBS isn't worse than DBZ?

>>856995

<I know that he deliberately limited the size of his attack in the Budokai to the size of the ring. But my point was that it was the same size when he used in a situation where there is no tangible benefit to increasing the size of his attack, so therefore it's presumably he never had any control of the size of his attack and it was just a coincidence that his attack is exactly the same size and shape as the ring.

Great fucking argument, retard. I'll patronize you as much as I feel like.

>>858020

If there wasn't a delay, Goku wouldn't have been able to dodge it and would have been blown up along with the ring. QED. Just because the audience doesn't see a delay means nothing.

The rest is just you putting words in my mouth and then trying to be smug about it. How pathetic.

>>858380

>If there wasn't a delay, Goku wouldn't have been able to dodge it and would have been blown up along with the ring.

He wanted Goku to dodge, moron. He wanted Goku get off the ring and Goku couldn't fly at the time so he vaporized exactly the size of the ring. Also, I could make the same argument about Semi-Perfect Cell not being able to dodge.

>The rest is just you putting words in my mouth and then trying to be smug about it.

What do you think you are doing then? Besides, you hide behind the vague claim that you understood why the Kikoho was that size yet made the claim that the size of the Kikoho was fixed.

>>857872

Hey, I'm a Z-fag and absolute deplore that piece of shit.

>>858393

He didn't give a shit whether Goku died or not. Up until the attack, he thought Goku was going to die because he hadn't moved until the moment when it fired. When it was over, everyone in the crowd thought he had died, and so did Tien — who I THINK would know when he fired the fucking thing! Therefore, his expectation was that it was so fast that Goku couldn't have dodged it in that moment between it leaving his hands and hitting the ring, but HE DID.

>>858487

>He didn't give a shit whether Goku died or not.

He and Master Roshi told him to dodge. Also, he would have been disqualified if Goku died. He didn't expect Goku to Kamehameha the ground to fly up.

My point is that Kikiho doesn't work like other ki attacks and Ultra Instinct should be theoretically be countered with teamwork and the right timing. That or you could just blow up the planet. I'm not saying that Toriyama will do it. DBS gave Ultra Instinct a boost in strength for no fucking reason and gave Goku white hair like it was another SSJ form. Ultra Instinct being the ultimate skill means basically everything but speed is a dump stat. It should have worked more like omen.

>>858539

In almost every case in Dragonball, the higher your power level, the higher your EVERYTHING: speed, strength, stamina, toughness. There's rarely someone stronger but slower, or faster but weaker, or some kind of glass cannon. They could have had a lot of that sort of thing in the tournament, but instead opted just have basically everyone have silly gimmick powers that were easily countered. Not since the Cell saga has there been something like "I'm stronger than you but can't beat you!" Now it's just this guy claims to be super fast, but still gets caught by someone if they have a big enough power level. And if you think that's something that only happens in Super, Burter did it first, Mr. Fastest in The Universe or whatever the fuck it was. Ultra Instinct being nothing more than a straight power-up is what everyone expected.

>>856000

>suddenly nothing else in the world matters

Yeah, but Dragon Ball is a continuous story and presumably it's meant to go in one direction toward an end point. Not a soap opera where something random can happen like in real life (inb4 >Dragon Ball >not a soap opera).

>since he realized that with the god-like power levels being thrown around...

Is this a thing that happened, or are you coming up with sensible explanations based on what Krillin should be thinking? I remember him being too scared to fight Android 17 & 18, so maybe I'm forgetting more?

Could just be I'm retarded, but I don't like when people apply rational thinking to characters/stories that aren't very rational. To me it's as irrelevant as applying shounen logic to a serious piece of literature. Dragon Ball is what it is, and Krillin's romance romance came out of nowhere. It's just easy to be ok with that since 1) the romance was sweet and well done, and 2) we all first saw Krillin's story get derailed 10+ years ago, and most watched DBZ before reading pre-timeskip Dragon Ball, so Krillin's ending a given for us now.

Vegeta and Bulma is a completely different situation so I don't feel the need to defend or attack it.

>>858639

I think it'd be fair to make a distinction between "manga canon" and "anime canon". That being said, I agree that arguing continuity in a series where the creator himself doesn't care is a wasted effort. Toriyama only wanted to make a goofy adventure comedy featuring ideas from a Chinese novel, but it corrupted into a horrible mess. I'd almost feel sorry for him if he weren't raking in the dough from royalties.

>>858572

>Ultra Instinct being nothing more than a straight power-up is what everyone expected.

I expected Ultra Instinct to work like UI Omen. They could have explained that Goku Blanco was just Utra Instinct plus SSJB but they didn't. Also, the idea of instinctively attacking doesn't make as much sense as someone instinctively dodging, blocking, and countering.

>>858591

>Is this a thing that happened, or are you coming up with sensible explanations based on what Krillin should be thinking? I remember him being too scared to fight Android 17 & 18, so maybe I'm forgetting more?

I would describe as Krillin brave but not fearless. I think that is why Toriyama likes him over Tien Shinhan who is mostly just fearless because he is more relatable. Funny enough, Bulma ended up being a positive influence to Goku despite her selfishness. Although not really explored, Goku's relationship with Bulma resemble more of a brother-sister relationship. Toriyama retconned Goku's character to be more selfish and attributed it to his Saiyan heritage.

>>858593

>Pretty sure there are no Yamcha fans pissed off at that.

The unfaithful lover angle was only introduced to make Bulma seem less horrible when she used her womb to make another SSJ.

>>858639

It is less about canon and more about DBS sucking. People act like DBS being declared canon automatically ends all discussion. People somehow think that that scene in GT where two men were flirting with Bra/Bulla was two men hitting on an 8 year-old. People just make excuse over excuse. I keep giving DBS chances just like how didn't give up on DBZ over every little thing but DBS doesn't offer anything worthwhile. When talking about SSJB vs SSJ4, people just talk about SSJB is cooler for being stronger and Goku being a monkey is bad because apparently Saiyans don't have tails and turn to great apes. While I still think that a Super Human transformation would still be stupid and gay, it isn't any worse than SSJG/SSJB.

>>859050

There's been a lot of stupid shit in Dragonball that we've put up with because there was always a promise of better stuff to balance it out. The good outweighed the bad, and a lot of the things people griped about were more nit-picks.

But Super is just all-around bad. The animation is bad, the writing is bad, the character designs are bad; and more than merely bad, it reeks of being LAZY. You can tell the difference between someone trying hard, but it turning out bad, and someone who just doesn't give the tiniest fuck how it turns out.

I offer the creation of Super Saiyan Blue as the moment when the franchise truly jumped the shark. Because it was kinda a joke before then, with the reveal of Super Saiyan God: "They aren't REALLY going to just make every new transformation a different hair color and literally nothing else, r-right...?" but with SSB, Toei CEMENTED that this was, indeed, what they were going to do. And so it has gone from then on, with Super Saiyan Rose, and Super Saiyan Blanco, and Super Saiyan Slightly-Darker-Blue for Vegeta. It turned a supposition of their incredible laziness into a confirmation.

What we had before, with the three canon (manga) transformations being just: "Lol it's just his hair getting a bit longer and spikier each time!" was comparably silly. Nobody will deny that. But the difference, which I alluded to, was that it was merely BAD, not both LAZY AND BAD. Everything bad in Super, every single thing, can be determined by the fact that absolutely nobody at Toei gives a fuck anymore. Bad animation: laziness. Poor story: laziness. Re-using assets and ideas and overdone characters: laziness. Refusal to ever make older character models for the kids despite them now being 14/15: laziness.

And yeah, a lot of these were things that also happened in Dragonball/Z because Toriyama is the kind of guy who is forgetful, silly, and a little bit flippant about his own work. But he was never LAZY. There's a difference, and you can feel it every time you watch an episode of Super. It wears on you, the constant reminder that this beloved franchise is now a piss-poor, badly-animated, cash-grab kid's show that nobody producing gives a shit about.

>>858639

>this entire post

>Honestly, arguing canon in Dragon Ball is retarded

Epic bait

Speaking of the Spirit Bomb, Kaio-ken, and Instant Transmission; nobody taught everyone else the Destructo Disc or the Solar Flare. People just learnt it from seeing it as oppose to Future Trunks who learnt to use a variation of the Spirit Bomb from never learning or seeing it.

And let's talk about Saiyan society. For thousands of years, they never gotten strong enough and angry enough to turn Super Saiyan. They have a gay magic ritual which gives literal Godhood but they were so dickish that finding 5 good Saiyans was too hard. At the age 1 (3?), they are expected to be sent to an alien planet and conquer it instead of just being adopted. To be fair, Dragon Ball Minus did say that it was extremely dangerous presumably because babies are dumb.

>>859608

I appreciate the DB arguments, especially because it feels like the same two anons encountering each other every now and then.

>>859569

Destructo Disc never gets any love.

>>859569

The whole sending-out-babies thing, I always got the impression that it wasn't really expected to succeed. Basically, King Vegeta instituted a policy of enforced eugenics, where the children of lower-class Saiyans (who were never expected to amount to anything special) were commonly sent to other worlds as a way of getting rid of them. Perhaps they had a China-esque one-child-only policy, so Bardock got to keep Raditz, but any additional children (aka Goku) got sent away. Saiyan parents seem very hands-off about their spawn, and they probably reproduce like rabbits, so it doesn't really impact the population very much. And again, none of them were expected to actually survive, but even if only one out of every hundred or every thousand managed to actually clear out a planet (or weaken the inhabitants enough for later clean-up by decent warriors) then it would have been worth the trouble compared to just tossing them in the garbage, like what happened to Brolly.

If you want to go outside canon, you could even postulate that this was FRIEZA'S policy, to limit Saiyan population growth. Thus, even the royal family was not exempt from this rule, which explains why Tarble (the second born) was also sent away at a young age.

Really, this whole subplot has the potential to be a lot more interesting than actual Dragonball. Would be neat to have a spinoff series about life for the Saiyans before the genocide. Get a whole new and original cast of characters in there, with infrequent guest appearances by Bardock, Frieza, and Vegeta and Raditz as kids, to keep it grounded in the rest of the series.

>>859714

>Destructo Disc never gets any love

To be honest, after Freiza many of the major enemies could straight up regenerate being cut in two, so it no longer mattered. There was that one filler moment of Cell completely no-selling the kienzan hitting him in the neck; but I kind of prefer the idea of it always being effective no matter what the opponent's power level.

>>859779

I have thought about what you said but I was thinking that babies wouldn't understand or care about the plan. Why is Goku getting a head injury necessary for the plot to work? He was a fucking baby. He doesn't need an excuse for not recognizing his brother.

>I kind of prefer the idea of it always being effective no matter what the opponent's power level.

I heard about that but it almost never hit because of that.

>>859824

>Why is Goku getting a head injury necessary for the plot to work?

You must have missed something. It was explicitly stated that the head injury made him kind and loving, instead of being a big asshole like Saiyans naturally are.

The babies "understanding the plan" isn't required if they're a nonstop raging temper-tantrum that kills everyone. Even if they have a power level of only 10 or 20 as a toddler, that increases to 100-200 on a night with a full moon (supposing they only send them to planets with large moons?) which is enough to wreck pretty much anyone by the measures of early Dragonball, where, keep in mind, literally nobody had a power level over 1000 until Raditz showed up.

>>859268

>trying to use logic when talking about dbs

I found the problem anon.

>>859779

>Tarble

Cease.

>>859913

>You must have missed something. It was explicitly stated that the head injury made him kind and loving, instead of being a big asshole like Saiyans naturally are.

The head injury resulting in memory loss in already a bit of cop-out but a head injury to completely rewire the brain sounds bullshit. In my headcanon (we really don't have much to go with so deal with it), the "3 years incubation" in Dragon Ball Minus also came with mental conditioning to make perfect Saiyan warriors.

>>859961

First we had stop talking about Chinese cartoons in the Chinese cartoon board. Then you go "just turn off your brain." Did you even read the post? I also gave my opinions which DBS is way too padded.

>>859973

We brought up DBS so might as well.

>>859973

Why don't you try adding something to the conversation, instead of standing there and pissing on yourself in meaningless impotent anger, big boy.

>>859977

Lots of what happened in Dragonball is a cop-out, especially with retcons. One day Toriyama probably thought, "Oh shit, I've made Goku a member of a warrior race where everyone is a bloodthirsty killer, but he's not like that at all!" Really, it would have been interesting if Goku was just a freak occurrence (and then being kind-hearted, but losing your shit, was the only way to ACTUALLY become Super Saiyan). Would even kinda work with Vegeta if you say that being with Bulma softened him up a lot, explaining why he could only ascend afterwards. Of course the hybrid kids are half-human, so are nice by default (compared to Saiyans, anyway).

>Dragonball Minus

Is that even canon or any good? I've legitimately never read it, because I put it on the same shelf as the Episode of Bardock nonsense and dismissed it altogether.

>>860080

We haven't seen how Marron will turn out, so it's impossible to tell. Though it's not exactly like she has a lot of competition, between the raving bitching harpy that is Chi-Chi and the selfish hands-off style of Bulma.

>>860080

>ENDLESS STAMINA

>>860017

>Why don't you try adding something to the conversation, instead of standing there and pissing on yourself in meaningless impotent anger, big boy.

What kind of impotent response is this? I just want us all to forget Tarble and that movie exist. Is that so wrong?

>>860199

>I just want us all to forget Tarble and that movie exist. Is that so wrong?

What is wrong with "Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!"? It had some problems but it was still better than DBS. It told a Dragon Ball story that wasn't really told before. The characters reacted how they should have to a Frieza level threat. Launch came back when Tien Shinhan was absent (the voice actor died).

>>860222

I know why they say that they hate it. However, it is always framed as part of the GT hate wagon; which would be fine if, it wasn't usually filled Superfags. There are people here that argued that SSJB was actually better designed than SSJ4.

>>860122

So she can deal with raising a family?

>>860204

>Launch came back when Tien Shinhan was absent (the voice actor died)

Remember when Toei said they would not bring back Tenshinhan out of respect for his late VA? I feel like I'm the only one who does, because they dropped that like hot shit when they made DBS, and that's kind of a dick move (especially because he's completely unnecessary to the plot, anyway).

>>860228

The SSJ4 form was polarizing since its inception. Which is ironic because it's one of the more interesting things about the series (and pretty much the only saving grace in the entire second half). The fact that the DBS kiddies who were still a glimmer in their parent's eye when GT actually aired have latched onto it is no surprise. They're just parroting what they've been told, and (like always) claiming that whatever is newer is best.

>>860358

>Remember when Toei said they would not bring back Tenshinhan out of respect for his late VA? I feel like I'm the only one who does, because they dropped that like hot shit when they made DBS, and that's kind of a dick move (especially because he's completely unnecessary to the plot, anyway).

It wasn't that they never plan to use Tien ever again. It was just that they didn't want to do it so shortly after he died. Bulma was going to be in the new DBS movie. However yes, Tien wasn't important to the story but people will throw a fit like in GT if he didn't came back.

>The SSJ4 form was polarizing since its inception. Which is ironic because it's one of the more interesting things about the series (and pretty much the only saving grace in the entire second half). The fact that the DBS kiddies who were still a glimmer in their parent's eye when GT actually aired have latched onto it is no surprise. They're just parroting what they've been told, and (like always) claiming that whatever is newer is best.

Look at the YouTubers making channels talking about DBS. With all the hype, views, and money; do you think most these fags are going ever admit that DBS is shit? They basically make a living doing stupid speculation or analysis videos. So many of them regurgitate the same meme defenses like "Goku has always been selfish!" meme. This is the same shit that happened with the new Star Wars Trilogy except the part when Disney killed the franchise by having weird SJW writing. The new fans act like this is a return to form when it is actually just the same shit package in a new but shitier box. There is also fucking social media.

Most people in the West didn't watch the original Dragon Ball so they can't appreciate the nodds to the original. I'm not saying that it was good but hating GT while loving DBS is stupid. Also, did Toriyama deliberately lock out SSJ4 by making all of the U6 tailless? Is this out of respect or dislike of the concept?

On another note, why is it that other Superfags have such an issue with Toyotarō? I don't exactly like DBS manga because it is still DBS but other Superfags seem to be harder on him.

>>861114

>people will throw a fit like in GT if he didn't came back

Are there really that many people who give a shit about Tien?? Seems unlikely. He showed up once (twice if you count filler) after Cell, and I don't recall anyone ever giving much of a shit.

>did Toriyama deliberately lock out SSJ4 by making all of the U6 tailless?

I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt he would have the foresight to do something like that. Probably, he just forgot (again) that tails existed at all. Also, there's no way Toei would ever reuse an old design, because then they would have to pay additional royalties to the guy who invented it in the first place. It's the same reason why anime remakes use different music, and why the new Star Trek used different Klingons.

>>860228

>There are people here that argued that SSJB was actually better designed than SSJ4.

Well, no one said that all posters here are intelligent.

>>860358

>Which is ironic because it's one of the more interesting things about the series (and pretty much the only saving grace in the entire second half)

I would disagree. The premise of the shadow dragons, designs notwithstanding, is very interesting and could've been shoehorned into canon. Super 17's ability was also something I liked.

>>861200

Super 17's ability was literally just Android 19's ability. It wasn't unique at all.

While the concept of the Dragonballs granting too many wishes and getting "corrupted" was a nice premise, it just turned out stupid. Yet another case of "we pulled these new characters out of nowhere and they're super strong just because".

>>861236

>Super 17's ability was literally just Android 19's ability. It wasn't unique at all.

It was, but it was used completely differently to 19. Where 19 needed that to sustain himself, Super 17's used it to power himself up.

>>861123

>Are there really that many people who give a shit about Tien??

Yes, they just have to bait out his relevancy just like they did with Gohan with the "I'll follow a different path." bit.

>Also, there's no way Toei would ever reuse an old design, because then they would have to pay additional royalties to the guy who invented it in the first place.

They did reused it in Super Dragon Balls Heroes the anime. Speaking of which, where and when the temporary Potara fusion started? In Dragon Ball Heroes? In DBS?

>>861405

>Super Dragon Balls Heroes the anime

They made an anime...?

THE FUCK?!

>>861419

Yeah, promo animations. They're about six minutes long, release every few months and there's only three of them. Also their animation sucks and the story is a joke. It's not a legit effort to make a series.

On another note, I can't recall where DBZA fit within the rules of /a/, but they just wrapped the Cell saga and confirmed they'll be doing the Buu saga. They did a pretty great job. Curious to see how they'll handle Vegeta sperging out.

>>861519

They did a fucking terrrible job

>>861522

Go on.

>>861519

I find it funny that we were supposed to be pumped up from seeing Cooler turning to his Golden form. What he basically said was "If my brother can achieve this new form in 4 months of training, I can achieve in 0 months of training." because that is how power scaling works in Dragon Ball now.

DBS is like a pretty boring fan fiction. At least, fan fiction does some interesting things. Hint that weaker characters will be relevant but they aren't. Gohan swear to become powerful in a different way than his father but nothing. Introduce a good Frieza race person but make him secretly evil. UI is just another transformation. Introduce 11 alternate universes, the MC becomes the strongest before we get to know anything about the other universes. Make a Piccolo 3.0 OC and make him Goku's friend immediately. Have him eliminated early. Make a female Broly but have her learn to control her power.

>>861519

>It's not a legit effort to make a series

Oh, thank fuck for that. Then I can safely ignore it.

>I can't recall where DBZA fit within the rules of /a/

I'm sure you'll mostly only get "it's popular so it sucks" types around here.

But as for me, I'm torn on finding out they're going to continue. For so long now the rumors that they were going to quit after Cell had almost entered the realm of "unconfirmed fact". They'd slowed down their uploads so much, and were talking about their IRL things taking up their time, and they've been doing actual professional VA work... it just seemed the right time. I have ZERO confidence that they'll actually get through the entire Buu saga at the rate they were going, so they will either quit halfway, or worse: the quality will drop precipitously. It'll be nice to get anything, but this ending here was just so Perfect. And I was SO READY for it to end, and then there was the stinger telling me to expect more... later. Totally killed the catharsis for me.

Team Four Star finished the Cell Saga.

Where's the fucking comedy?

>>861608

Goku’s speech about not coming back sounded like they were speaking through him. They should have ended it on that note and put out the occasional specials from there. A Buu special that gets treated like one of the movies would be better than trying to an actual abridging of it.

>>861635

They did the same with the Helsin Abridged, removed any chance for comedy in the few last episodes.

How many years until they start Season 4 and ruin the Boo saga with NO comedy at all. And who was the fucking idea of making Mr Popo and Dende some sort of badasses when they are shit?

Weeklytubeshow makes much better dubs.

>>861608

They only slowed down the releases near the end because of legal troubles. DBZA is the only reason they are where they are, if they cancelled it then money would drain fast. Some of them virtue signaling aside, they aren’t retarded.

>>861637

They had always written Mr. Popo like that. I didn’t like Dende’s flanderization though.

>>861642

>Virtue signalling

I was really surprised that they’ve kept politics out of DBZA. It’s so rare to see ecelebs not make complete asses of themselves.

>>861636

I definitely thought so, too. And Cell singing "My Way" was also kinda for them, it seemed.

>>861637

Dende wasn't really a badass, he was just kinda a jerk. Except for when he's hardcore gay for Gohan. Is it even gay if Namekians don't have dicks and thus aren't actually male?

>>861644

I know. I mean I don't like that Popo joke from the very beginning.

>>861698

Psycho gays are rarely funny. Is a pretty cringey joke in my opinion.

>>861711

Popo being the way he is is one of the last holdovers from the early days where the jokes were worse and more random. It's crazy how much they've grown as writers, editors, directors etc. Did anyone really think Teamfourstar would be so big in 2018? The guys have gone pro. I figured they'd just fade away, hell I didn't even like DBZA when it first came out. I still can't watch their early stuff.

>>861698

The Cell arc probably should be where they cap things off. The whole tone of this episode is so final. Like another anon said, they might be worried about losing Patreon support if they announce they're not doing the Buu saga.

>>861743

I don't mind their early stuff for the stupid humor, but just because they were so TERRIBLE at dubbing, and even worse at editing. At that stage they were incapable of anything better than just copy/paste and zooms. Didn't help that their source footage was also pretty garbage, and it being THAT OLD means that youtube was basically 240p as a default.

But then, almost every abridged series is like that in the beginning (only I've ever seen that was golden from the very beginning was Outlaw Star Abridged, which unfortunately died after only like four episodes), which is why people tend to have a dim view of them. DBZA is the exception. It ran long enough for the crew to actually get really good at what they do, improve their jokes and timing, develop an entirely unique (albeit mostly just flandarized) cast of characters, and create their own running jokes and style. A lot of that comes down to just putting in the work. Did anyone else actually watch the Android-saga "Episode Breakdowns"? Gives a good teaser at the sheer amount of editing that goes into one of their modern episodes. Really, it's a fantastic success story that sometimes hard work and persistence really can pay off.

>>861830

>hard work and persistance

As in DBZA, as in Dragon Ball itself.

>>861915

>As in Dragonball itself

You mean the series where you ain't shit unless you were born a Saiyan, or whatever Frieza is, or whatever the GoD/Angels are?

Because if it was all "hard work", then Vegeta would be stronger than Goku for starters. Tien would probably be the strongest in the universe, because he doesn't have a family and trains literally all the time. Frieza would be weaker than Mr. Satan, because the latter actually DOES train.

>>861916

Sure, half is what you are, but I'll remind you that even Beerus had to train to become a God of Destruction.

>>861939

What's your point? If you're specifically chosen by Plot or some higher power to achieve greatness, you will indeed become great by applying a modicum of hard work?

Has there ever been an anime where someone is "chosen" like this but doesn't achieve jack shit because, despite being immensely talented and having great luck, is a lazy shit with zero motivation? Because that sounds interesting and I would watch it.

>>862062

Closest you can find is probably Konosuba.

>>862143

>It is all done off screen now

Yes, but it also takes progressively less work as the series goes on. Achieving Super Saiyan took Goku 20+ years of growing and getting stronger and then seeing his friends get killed and his son threatened. He then got SJJ2 and 3 by fucking around in Heaven for a few years. He then got Super Saiyan God from a hand-holding ceremony, and then Super Saiyan Blue from training with Whis for a few months. Frieza jumped from Super Saiyan power to Super Saiyan Blue power by just training on his own for a few months. The U6 Saiyans got Super Saiyan by just practicing back tingles for a few minutes. Jiren got Ultra Instinct power by... what was it? seeing a few friends get killed and crying about it really hard...?

Really, there isn't a series out there where the person who just works the hardest clearly ends up as the strongest. That was my point.

>>862193

>there isn't any real sense of scale for the new forms aside from more powerful then the last

This is VERY true. For the most part all you get is "character A is stronger than character B who is stronger than character C" comparisons. This leads to fans making hilariously erroneous conclusions like saying Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu because they think Goku SSJ3 was actually able to beat Fat Buu, or whatever. It also, for a long time, led many to believe that SSB might actually be WEAKER than SSG, because SSG Goku was shown to be much closer to Beerus than he was (or, more correctly, they later retconned Beerus holding back a lot more than he stated he was at the time) while SSB seemed to be not nearly as intense. This seemed plausible for a while as neither Goku nor Vegeta ever went back to using SSG (and how could they? it needed the ceremony) so there was nothing to compare it to. Then in the ToP (mother of fuck, we use a lot of acronyms for this series) it was indeed, shown as weaker than SSB. Which of course SHOULD mean that it's a bazillion times stronger than SSJ3, because SSJ3 Goku was tossed around by Beerus with a flick of the finger, but able to at least give him a good fight at SSG. And yet his strength against the Mary Sue Saiyans between SSJ3 and SSG really didn't seem all that wide a gap, except that obviously both were stronger than SSJ2. So maybe the version of SSG they're using without the ceremony was somehow not as powerful as the one with?? In which case you end up with the possibility that "true" SSG is still better than SSB, possibly even greater than UI or Vegeta's SSB2.

Honestly, fuck all this.

Why does Vegeta get shafted in terms of power at the end of DBZ?

Goku reaches SSJ3, Gohan blows everyone out of the water by unlocking his Ultimate form.

Vegeta just remains SSJ2, at Super Perfect Cell tier. He never even gotten stronger than Majin Buu.

>>862649

Because DBZ's run would be over in a year by the time Vegeta blew himself up? Toriyama had to up the stakes with more than just SSJ forms so he made stuff like fusions, and Ultimate Gohan. Just giving Vegeta SSJ3 to match Goku would be redundant, so Toriyama made Vegetto.

>>862723

This and Vegeta isn't really a martial artist. He doesn't have the same mindset as Goku when comes to self improvement. Vegeta started out way stronger than Vegeta but Goku manages to surpass him quickly. Vegeta's pride and stubbornness prevented him from taking advantage of the opportunities that he had. Goku learnt the Instant Transmission from a supposedly weak race. Vegeta did eventually improved. He asked to be trained by Whis.

DBS loves telling the most uneventful stories possible. All of the arcs minus BotG more or less ended in the status quo. Sure Goku and Vegeta get a power up maybe a character gets introduced but everything else remained the same. In that episode where Krillin got a gun wound, they could have moment where his co-workers go to apologise to Krillin for being a burden and ask him to train them. Instead he gets an insignificant power up that never get brought up again except having a wiki entry.

>>861743

>Like another anon said, they might be worried about losing Patreon support if they announce they're not doing the Buu saga.

I thought that's what they did before the first part of the final episode, announce they aren't doing the buu saga. I wouldn't be surprised if they go back on it either, but I remember reading that people were disappointed that they weren't. I hope they end it there because besides how people feel about the buu saga, making a parody of it feels pointless. The show has a mixed tone throughout it.

The other problem is that DBZA hasn't been a parody for dozens of episodes. It stopped being a parody after the namek saga and became more and more until it was blatantly a "slightly more silly" redubbing of DBZ. They were clearly milking as much as they could get out of the show.

The first ten episodes of DBZA had more parody in it than the last two dozen episodes combined. I honestly am surprised no one else sees through it. They mix the dialogue that is applicable to the scene with their homemade dialogue they invented for jokes and instead of "abridging" things they end up using almost every thing that was shown in the original series. There's basicslly no abridgement by the last two dozen episodes. It's essentially just a redubbing with forced jokes.

I would still want to know if they're continuing it or not so I can expect more awkward references to it in the Super official dub.

>>862870

>buu saga, making a parody of it feels pointless. The show has a mixed tone throughout it.

>Buu Saga parody.

Buu Saga really was parody wasn't it?

>Gohan goes to High school

>Completely fails at Clark Kenting his way as a "normal highschool student".

>Videl finds out he is a "super hero" in about 2 days. While other series draw this out.

>No real fucks is given about the martial arts tournament, even before Vegeta's murdering spree.

>What if we make the final bad guy a fat tub of lard that has a mind of a country hick/mind of a 5 year old dub.

>What if Satan shows him how to love life.

>What if we make him evil too.

>What if we make the last hope for humanity a pair of kids who actually act like a pair of kids.

>What if we make their moms' watch too.

>What if we make him Perfect Cell again, but Gohan loses.

>What if he becomes chaos incarnate.

>What if the universe is united and saved by praising Satan.

>>862870

At the end of episode 60 part 3, they say "See You in Season 4!" so it's happening. They've said they won't do GT or Super, but they aren't really in a position to turn down more material since it'll kill their patreon.

>>862870

>making a parody of it feels pointless

Very little of what they do is a straight parody anymore. They have their own little storylines and running jokes and characterizations to play with. To a certain degree, they can even mess around with the plot by using careful editing (or just completely original animation added in).

Which would make it pretty damn funny if they just did the reverse. Instead of a comedic parody of a shounen that took itself too seriously, they'd create an edgy grimdark version of a comedic shounen that was often parodying itself. It's not like the Buu saga wasn't deadly serious sometimes, it's just masked by all the silliness and lolrandom events. Properly edited, it could easily be turned into a horror series. In many ways Buu as a child-like entity is the most terrifying of all the villains; he can't be reasoned with, he doesn't have a goal or agenda, he's not remotely rational or predictable, he's not even really evil; he just murders people because it's fun and they're tasty when turned into candy.

>>862925

>Buu Saga really was parody wasn't it?

Parody of what? They should have pretended to keep Gohan the main character but Toriyama only sees the Saiyaman thing as a joke.

DBS is so bad that I rather have a reboot of the entire series. It is like it makes everything retroactively worse. Everything leading up to DBS becomes a mistake.

Are any of the arcs of DBS even good in concept much less execution?

>>862925

The proper term is probably self-parody, but more precisely the Buu saga is when it reintegrates elements of being the gag manga that started the series off in DB. A lot of people forget that for all the times Toriyama forgets things, he's always tried to mix absurdity into what's happening. The more I learn about him the more I'm starting to see that the middle of DB to the end of the cell saga was a phase he went through where he was trying something out and it worked.

He took his popular gag series and turned it into the quintessential shounen we see nowadays that most shounen aspires to be. Once king piccolo entered the series and krillin died the first time, DB changed and for all intents and purposes stopped being a gag manga. DBZ had ups and downs in terms of humor but was basically the standard of shounens we know today. Things like the Ginyu force is in the same vein as a buu-style villain, a self-contradictory villain. The Ginyu force is a parody of sentai teams, are flamboyant and literally colorful, but are terrifying for how powerful they are and the threat they pose.

Across DBZ it's hard to name anything else that was major that played itself comedic but by the time we get to the Buu saga it's like the gag and the shounen elements clashed on even grounds. I'm almost convinced that Toriyama was done playing it straight and wanted to return to making comedy, which sorta makes the bulk of DB/Z an experiment he created and couldn't live down. It's kinda brilliant that the most popular shounen worldwide came from a guy who's made a successful series of a robot girl that is entertained by smiling pink-purple shits and I lost count of all of the pissing scenes in early DB.

>>862945

>Which would make it pretty damn funny if they just did the reverse. Instead of a comedic parody of a shounen that took itself too seriously, they'd create an edgy grimdark version of a comedic shounen that was often parodying itself.

They will most likely play it safe since they're more interested in milking the series than doing anything but recycling their own catchphrases and in-jokes. They've shown they're capable of editing things to their advantage but the main goal is to keep milking DBZ as long as they can. Look how long their schedule was for the android/cell saga compared to the namek saga. By the time cell appeared they were blatantly just redubbing episodes than making an abridged series. The only thing they're really good at is finding scenes to stretch out and fill with pointless dialogue where the characters say the exact same thing in the real show but just "funnier."

To really put this in perspective, their abridged series has gone on longer than DB/Z, both the show and the manga.

>It's not like the Buu saga wasn't deadly serious sometimes, it's just masked by all the silliness and lolrandom events. Properly edited, it could easily be turned into a horror series. In many ways Buu as a child-like entity is the most terrifying of all the villains; he can't be reasoned with, he doesn't have a goal or agenda, he's not remotely rational or predictable, he's not even really evil; he just murders people because it's fun and they're tasty when turned into candy.

I agree he's oddly enough one of the most terrifying villains. The time he found kame's lookout and was turning everyone into candy is probably one of the sickest moments in the entire series. He was an unstoppable force of chaos, basically a mindless monster.

>>862946

>DBS is so bad that I rather have a reboot of the entire series. It is like it makes everything retroactively worse. Everything leading up to DBS becomes a mistake.

DBS is an enjoyable mess. If they tried to redo it for whatever reason it would just be worse. Toriyama was done with the series before Buu was a thing and Toyotaro can only do so much. The only thing they should redo is the animation. TOEI should be ashamed for giving koreans a shoestring budget to animate the series. It looks terrible even when it starts to look better.

>Are any of the arcs of DBS even good in concept much less execution?

I would argue that every arc in DBS works in concept but they're concepts that not everyone likes. I wouldn't defend their execution(s) because that's part of the mess that DBS is. The arc that was the most interesting and I can't tell if you've seen it or not so spoilers: Zamasu as a concept is probably the most interesting of all villains in the franchise because he's a supreme kai that goes to great extremes. That arc is the darkest in DBS and yet it still has comedy sprinkled throughout all of it, sometimes meta like Gowasu always asking for tea. I feel like DBS being mostly comedic was a compromise that had to be made. There's more gags in the hundred-plus episodes of DBS than all of Z.

That said, I feel like the one saga that works the best is the Shakai Sabaibaru Hen. Toei got their shit together for that one and for once the drama and comedy blended real well. It was lightning in a bottle that makes DBS worth it.

>>860153

But he did give his approval by designing it.

>>862963

He was also the only villain to go from threatening genocide to actually carrying it out. Each form of Buu has its own flavor of frightening. Mr. Buu was childish and a corrupted innocence. Super Buu was just coldly pragmatic, even if that pragmatism was: "You want me to kill everyone on the planet? Okay... and done! NOW can we get to the fight I was promised?" or turning Chi-Chi into an egg and stepping on her just to shut her up as quickly as possible. And of course Kid Buu was the embodiment of chaotic evil, blowing up planets even if it BLEW HIMSELF UP at the same time.

>>862964

The Zamasu/Black arc was the one time in the entire franchise when I honestly felt the series had become more than just a tired and formulaic battle-shounen with predictable plots and a convenient hierarchy of bad guys for the good guys to beat. This feeling didn't last, but for a short time it almost ascended from a mediocre shounen to one of the best shounens. Zamasu had a very complex and mature motivation, certainly compared to just wanting to blow up the Earth because they're eeeevil, and the execution through the first two-thirds of the arc showing his descent was inspired.

Of course, a lot of this is because it relied on the Dark Future of Trunks' timeline, which is another of the times when the series really shined. That's because it channels despair really well, reaching back to a rare moment of honest helplessness on the part of the heroes as happened with Frieza (and, to a lesser degree, Cell). It had a tension and uncertainty that the other arcs just couldn't compete with.

>>862963

>The proper term is probably self-parody, but more precisely the Buu saga is when it reintegrates elements of being the gag manga that started the series off in DB. A lot of people forget that for all the times Toriyama forgets things, he's always tried to mix absurdity into what's happening. The more I learn about him the more I'm starting to see that the middle of DB to the end of the cell saga was a phase he went through where he was trying something out and it worked.

Toriyama never completely abandon DB's comedic roots. Here is what I think was the thought process:

>Goku is the strongest on Earth now.

>Goku and Piccolo are strong because they are aliens.

>Goku went to space to kill the strongest alien in the Universe.

>Z Fighters go back to Earth.

<Fuck! I wasted entire Universe of possibilities in one arc.

<Fuck! Nothing on Earth is strong enough to be the bad guy.

<...Robots!

<...A robot with all of the strongest fighters DNA!

>Gohan kills Saiyan-Namekian-Human-Frieza Bio-android with Infinite Energy x2, Infinite Growth, Infinite Regeneration, and Infinite Learning potential mostly by himself.

<...Fuck, now what?

<Oh yeah! Magic exist in DB.

>>862964

>DBS is an enjoyable mess.

No, it wasn't. DBS peaked at the Zamasu arc and I hated that arc. The first two arcs were hard to watch.

>I would argue that every arc in DBS works in concept but they're concepts that not everyone likes.

<Goku fights even stronger god using another transformation unique to Saiyans.

<Frieza comes back and trains for 4 months. He becomes stronger than SSJG Goku.

<However Goku already gains SSGSSJ. Quickly making SSJG obsolete after one use.

<Goku beats Frieza but he cheats. Someone just a strong as Goku intervenes.

<The tired Frieza is no match for Vegeta so he blows up the planet.

<The strongest person in the Universe intervenes.

<A tournament arc; prize is status quo.

<Evil Goku; mystery is dragon balls.

<Edgy Supreme Kai kills everyone for flimsy reasoning.

<Another tournament arc; prize is super status quo.

>>862971

>The Zamasu/Black arc was the one time in the entire franchise when I honestly felt the series had become more than just a tired and formulaic battle-shounen with predictable plots and a convenient hierarchy of bad guys for the good guys to beat.

No, it felt like the first arc to be structured like a DBZ arc.

>Zamasu had a very complex and mature motivation

<Ningen kill each other. Why can't they be more like gods?

<Ningen gain the power of the gods. Why can't they know their place?

<Ningen time travel. Why are they so reckless?

<Gods won't let genocide the Ningen. Why are they so inactive in punishing?

<Now I'm going to do EVERYTHING that I shat on others for doing with a poorly conceived plan with no real end goal.

>>862964

>If they tried to redo it for whatever reason it would just be worse.

I thought long about it but DBS really left me with a bad enough impression to want to reboot the entire Dragon Ball series.

>>862967

Yes.

>>863050

>There is a real sense of scale that I feel is missing in the Android/Buu sagas.

Flying really fuck over the gathering the Dragon Balls aspect then Goku gains instant transmission. GT tried to fix this but DBS couldn't even make collecting planet sized Dragon Balls interesting. Zamasu did it himself twice. How?

>>863050

>Cell tier power is supposed to destroy entire solar systems and Buu tier power is supposed to be wiping out entire galaxies

Once you pass planet-buster power, there really isn't anything left. To be pedantic, being able to "destroy a solar system" or "a galaxy" doesn't even make any sense. Compared to a planet which is solid rock and metal, space is just a bunch of empty space. It's like saying you're going to destroy smoke; you CAN'T, all you can do is scatter it about a little more than it already is. It was even more pointless when Cell threatened to destroy the solar system instead of just Earth. So? There isn't ANYTHING OF VALUE IN IT except for Earth. If Dragonball had some humans living on Mars or whatever, okay that threat has merit. But otherwise it's like a mugger in an alley saying he's going to shoot you to death and also put some holes in the brick wall behind you.

>>863199

DB probably takes place on a planet Earth where the dinosaurs never died and the moon doesn't actually matter if you want to be gay about it.

Well, I say probably, but those are actual facts.

Also, pretty sure one of the movies (or maybe the manga) said Earth was a 'backwater planet', so there probably isn't much around it in terms of livable planets.

>>863199

I always figured the continents being mixed-up were as a result of the series taking place hundreds of millions of years before now, when there were actual dinosaurs around Earth.

In any case, I seriously doubt there were any nearby planets with aliens on them. You'd think they would show up in the series.

>>863275

I mean, that is the original story of the Monkey King, so if Goku is still suppose to be a "retelling" of that, then yes, its suppose to be before one of the many plate shifts.

>>863137

Frieza Saga was pretty much the last time they could have a meaningful adventure on a planetary scale. It took Gohan and Krillian hours? Days? To get from village to village. Namek was basically a shitty open world game. Where there is actually nothing interesting aside from a handful of villages so I wondered how far away the villages actually where from each other. Anyway, point is, distance mattered, which is important for an adventure. After that, everyone could get anywhere in less then a day. The androids "Artificially" created a reason why they didn't just fly to Goku's house immediately, and that would have taken them less then a day, Probably.

>>863275

>You'd think they would show up in the series.

Where do you think furfags come from?

I read up how Ki suppose to work in DB and found this.

>Genki (元気 lit. "Vigor")

>Yūki (勇気 lit. "Courage")

>Shōki (正気 lit. "Mind")

Yet it still devolves into ooga booga bigger power level.

>>863439

>Martians exists in the Dragon Ball-verse

I don't care if Toriyama says Jaco or his other random side-stories are canon to Dragonball; they are not. You can't just write something decades after the fact and say it takes place in the same universe, but you just never saw it before. That's bullshit.

>Gohan regains his Potential Unleash from powering up

How did he even lose it in the first place? It doesn't even make any sense because it was supposed to make him as powerful as he could possibly ever be, so that any transformation is rendered completely irrelevant. Probably, Toriyama forgot that it wasn't just Gohan's personal version of Super Saiyan 3.

For all the rest, it's just new powers as the plot demands. Writing themselves into a corner and then writing themselves out of it with nonsense. I don't think a single person at Toei, nor Toyotaro, nor Toriyama, had more than a bare outline to plan DBS. Literally just making shit up every single week.

>>863444

This reads exactly like how chakra in Naruto is supposedly formed from a balance of "spiritual energy" and "physical stamina", but is basically never brought up after first being mentioned, and never has any effect on the plot. Would have been interesting if it was mentioned that the reason Rock Lee can't use any ninjutsu is because he's always doubting himself and thus has zero "spiritual energy".

>>863488

>How did he even lose it in the first place?

Maybe from disuse?

>It doesn't even make any sense because it was supposed to make him as powerful as he could possibly ever be, so that any transformation is rendered completely irrelevant. Probably, Toriyama forgot that it wasn't just Gohan's personal version of Super Saiyan 3.

Look at this shit. He is just yelling until his hair turns from blond to black. I assume that he was going to regain it with mediation because Potential Unleash was suppose to be stronger than SSJ2/3 without having to tax your sphincter. He unlocked Potential Unleash the first time by letting an old man dance around him. Why would yelling and powering up unlock it?

>Would have been interesting if it was mentioned that the reason Rock Lee can't use any ninjutsu is because he's always doubting himself and thus has zero "spiritual energy".

He was just born with a disability like all of us. I thought that Ki was suppose to have frequency or density or something.

>>863488

>You can't just write something decades after the fact and say it takes place in the same universe, but you just never saw it before. That's bullshit.

Man, you must hate the Star Wars Expanded Universe.

How long can you last image training against Goku?

>>863497

>He unlocked Potential Unleash the first time by letting an old man dance around him

He didn't do shit. He didn't have to. It was just an advanced version of what Guru did to him on Namek. The difference was that back then he was a five-year-old so his tiny body's "full potential" as to physical strength and ki capacity (while still being impressive) wasn't even enough to phase Frieza. But as an adult, it was powerful enough to beat Buu (or nearly, anyway).

The way I always interpreted transformations was like muscle limits, except on ki. Everyone has a certain amount of ki they can produce at any time, but the body naturally restricts this amount because otherwise it will cause damage to themselves. Saiyans have a shitload of ki but normally can't use it all, so what Super Saiyan does is temporarily force the body to break those limits so they can use a lot more of their "potential". What the old kaioshin did for Gohan was basically alter his body so he could always use his full strength all the time. This wasn't possible before because using all that power like that would tear his body to pieces; the only reason Goku could use SSJ3 was because his body wasn't "alive". We saw what happened when someone who doesn't have that same capability uses their full power all at one, when Vegeta self-destructed to try to kill Buu. So it was less that the kaioshin installed a bigger tap on Gohan's reservoir of ki, and more that he rebuilt the pipes so more could flow out without the force breaking them.

Or, you know, he just waved his magic wand to make Gohan super-strong because that's what the plot demanded for the next few chapters...

>>863557

That's different because its fanfiction, and some of it (like Thrawn) was legitimately GOOD fanfiction. But nobody was ever going to pretend it was supposed to be canon. This is to contrast with the sequel trilogy, which is legitimately BAD fanfiction, but they're still trying to convince us that it's canon.

>>863664

Sequels are planned, or at least there was a reasonable contingent for allowing them to happen. The SW OT wrapped everything up with a pretty bow, and nothing that was referred to in the past (that was put into the prequels) required further extrapolation. There's a huge difference.

>>863709

The whole Supreme-Kai-and-GoD-are-linked was one of the stupidest things they ever came up with. It's actually surprising that Toyotaro didn't come up with something better. Shit, anything would have been better. Say Zamasu bode his time until Beerus went to sleep, and then gathered all the Super Dragonballs and wished him to cease to exist. Or make it kinda funny by saying that he somehow found a way to poison his food thus killing him. I understand that this was supposed to be a cop out explanation that allowed Zamasu to kill off Beerus while keeping Beerus stronger (for what purpose? he never DOES anything) but this was just the worst possible way to do it.

>>863839

>Sequels are planned, or at least there was a reasonable contingent for allowing them to happen.

There is no special requirement to writing a sequel. They never planned for a "Back to the Future 2" when the filmed "Back to the Future". Also, I doubt Toriyama plans things.

>The whole Supreme-Kai-and-GoD-are-linked was one of the stupidest things they ever came up with.

It was literally the only thing established held the GoD back. Beerus was one fucking punch away from destroying the Universe and it isn't the first time or the last time.

>>863839

>while keeping Beerus stronger (for what purpose? he never DOES anything)

Goku becoming stronger then Beerus is basically Super's end goal. Once Goku does that the series is "over". It really is the only long term goal it has.

>>863883

>They never planned for a "Back to the Future 2" when the filmed "Back to the Future"

Sure sure, but they left open the possibility, and did it fabulously within about 30 seconds, too. If there would be a sequel it would take place in the future from 1985, where technology was much more advanced (flying cars and fusion technology), and it was concerning some really bad trouble that Marty and Jennifer's children had gotten into.

To contrast, there was NOTHING at the end of Dragonball Z or Star Wars RoTJ to suggest that anything that happened in their respective "sequels" would be happening. They just invented new characters and groups and plotlines out of nowhere.

Which, come to think of it, you know the way SW is just rehashing the OT movies one by one? Super is kinda doing the same thing with DBZ. Mystery alien comes from nowhere to threaten Earth, and Goku isn't strong enough to beat him; am I talking about Raditz or Beerus? Second arc is about Frieza either way. Third arc is about a guy composed of Goku's DNA, who came from the future, showing up and wreaking havoc; oh and Future Trunks is there, too.

>>863883

>Beerus was one fucking punch away from destroying the Universe

That was anime-only filler that was quickly established as nonsense because plenty of times after that shit happened with Beerus that most definitely did not result in destroying the Universe. Also, why in the FUCK would he want to destroy the entire Universe when he literally lives there and cannot go anywhere else?? That would be like suggesting that someone who demolishes buildings for a living would, if given the chance, choose to destroy every building on Earth all at once. It's ludicrous. Beerus might be a bit dumb and have a short fuse, but he's not an unhinged maniac who's only leash is a mutual Sword of Damocles over some completely unrelated deity.

>>863918

It takes some fairly severe troll math to figure that he hasn't somehow already passed Beerus by gaining the strength of UI, considering how close he was just with SSG.

>That vid related

It is not healthy to drown in self-indulgent nostalgia for years past, but it's nearly impossible to avoid when everything new is trying its hardest to be objectively inferior.

>>863921

>Already passed Beerus.

This is probably accurate, but several reasons could have made Beerus not up to par in that fight when he said "70%".

>He just woke up.

>He was rusty from his nap.

>He tired himself out from all this made break dancing skills he was doing at the party.

>He has since gotten stronger.

>Destruction God Kai scaling works differently from regular Divine Kai like what we saw with Vegeta vs Topo.

Not that any of those reasons would also be just as bullshitty, but you know, Toriyama.

Also, how does anyone even know that was "70%". Freiza's "1%" was someone believable since its basically him "just waking up" or something, and "50%" is more like "Let me actually start trying." and 100% is "Oh shit this is happening!". This is more of a nitpick anyway, but how would any one know if they are doing 65% or 66% without a scouter or isn't an android. Sounds like just making widely vague assumptions. At least in my widely vague head cannon. Chances are they forgot he said that.

My head canon has this. Excuse the autism.

>God of Destruction Divine Ki.

>Divine Ki

>Supreme Ki's Magical abilities that might just be from a fused witch.

>Magic aka "Babadi, Buu, Master Roshi, and Witches."

>Normal Ki

>Technology aka "Androids, blasters and robot" Poison needles too I guess.

>Raw physical Strength. Would share with Technology bracket is the writers cared enough, Poison breath too I guess.

>Cells, Viruses, sicknesses, and Diseases, Beerus getting food poisoning from eating from the same plate as Poopoo.

This is just what I mean on different "Powers". I still think that "Normal Ki" and "Divine Ki" just works on different levels. With Divine cutting through anything thats just normal or "mortal" like butter. Not because its stronger, but just because its Divine.

>>863439

Future Gohan was more of a protag than current Gohan and that's because he had no choice in the matter. He was easily outclassed by the androids, but still fought till the bitter end to protect others. Current Gohan doesn't have a reason to be the hero. Goku doesn't stay dead and Vegeta is still around.

I was expecting Broly once we got Kale, but I'm curious if he'll be more than some retard who can only say kakarot this time around? I don't ever expect him to be match Cell in terms of banter, but I'd like it if he did have something else to him.

>>863931

>Also, it isn't an insignificant detail.

typo

>>864157

>This is probably accurate, but several reasons could have made Beerus not up to par in that fight when he said "70%".

I think that in the movie.

<V-Jump notes that Beerus is without a doubt the strongest character in the history of the Dragon Ball franchise. The series' original author, Akira Toriyama, stated that Beerus was the strongest in the universe, and that there was nothing higher. However, this is disproven in Battle of Gods when Beerus reveals that his attendant and martial arts master, Whis, is stronger than him. Regardless, Beerus' power is in another dimension altogether in comparison to the non-godly Z Fighters. Toriyama stated that, in terms of power, Super Saiyan God Goku would be a 6, Beerus would be a 10, and Whis would be a 15. Toriyama also noted that Beerus could destroy the Supreme Kai's realm, which is 1/10th the size of Universe 7. Toriyama states in Dragon Ball Volume ‘F’ that Frieza is no match for Beerus no matter what he does, even after his training.

>My head canon has this.

The series never really made God Ki out to be something other than an upgrade. Goku said some bullshit about SSJB having regenerative properties but applied it inconsistently. It is funny that SSJ4 feels less like an incremental upgrade than SSJG or SSJB. I mean they said that mortal can't sense God Ki yet Goku has been shown to Instant Transmission into places using gods as anchors. Shouldn't someone like Buu have God Ki too? I always associated God ki to magic and assumed that magicians uses energy around themselves instead of inside themselves. The Buu arc keep establishing witches as being powerful; Babidi controlling Buu, Fortune Teller Baba freely entering and leaving the afterlife, and that witch who was in the sacred world of the kais for some reason.

>>864179

>Video not available in your country

The best case scenario is Broly beats the shit out every "strong" DBS character and form without any conclusion.

>>864157

>This is more of a nitpick anyway, but how would any one know if they are doing 65% or 66% without a scouter or isn't an android

It's just a shounen cliche. We assume it's a correct assessment because it's never wrong. Most of the time there isn't any basis for it, and half the time it's used just so they can go "beyond the impossible" and somehow reach inside themselves to get up to 120%, or whatever.

As a matter of plain fact it's impossible for a living being to get anywhere near a theoretical 100% of their strength. This is the kind of thing that would immediately result in ripping out tendons and shattering their own bones. Hence the body naturally limits it most of the time, and in times of great need allows a little but more.

As for the scaling of different types of powers, it doesn't really seem to be the case. There are plenty of examples of "magic" getting broken by someone who was just using normal ki, like Vegeta resisting Babidi's commands (while somehow still keeping the Majin powerup). Also Frieza being able to use his normal ki to contain a ball of Hakai, despite nothing ever suggesting that he had god ki like Goku with SSB does. Not that this makes any sense, anyway, since mostly it's god ki coming from absolutely nowhere. How would five Saiyans holding hands generate god ki? How would training enable someone to tap into it by themselves? How was Toppo able to just will himself into a GoD? The line between mortals and gods has long since blurred into nothing, and arguably this has been happening since Dragonball when King Piccolo was able to kill Shenron, who up until then was portrayed like a divine being.

>>864179

>I was expecting Broly once we got Kale, but I'm curious if he'll be more than some retard who can only say kakarot this time around?

I think people forget some facts of the movies. Broly isn't just a retard repeating Kakarot over and over just 70% of the time. He is basically the legendary supersaiyan but it doesn't mean he can't be a psichotic son of a bitch.

I like Broly.

>>864216

>Frieza couldn't even sense ki. Future Trunks said that it was an Earth warrior exclusive ability although Namekians seem to know it and the Yagarats need it to use Instant Transmission (maybe their variation is short range because of that). I don't know what is special about Earth martial arts to make it that rare.

Isn't the whole sense energy stuff learned from Kami, and by proxi, from namekians? Also, the Yagarats had clothes similar to namek, so maybe they shared some space culture?

>>864420

>Which sounds like a cop-out

It IS a cop-out. It's literally the same thing with the androids. "How can someone with a power level of a gnat create androids stronger than a Super Saiyan?" "With technology!" "How can someone with a power level of a gnat create a being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3." "With magic!"

>>864950

I don't even want to try to figure out the difference between magic and psychic powers, especially in the context of DBZ. When Guldo freezes someone in midair, it's a psychic ability; if Babidi teleports people it's magic, seemingly only because he says an incantation, "Paparapapa". But then again he does things without any sort of magic spell.

Of note: Kaioshin was able to similarly "freeze" Gohan, who was at the time SSJ2, and stated to be much stronger in power level than Kaioshin was. This could be a psychic power, but given the user seems more likely to be a DIVINE power. One wonders why he never tried that technique on Buu. Maybe he just forgot?

>Is Ki part of the soul or the body? Because Zamasu stole Goku's body but kept his ki

I would say part of the body. It was basically the same story with Ginyu, except he didn't know any of Goku's techniques. He couldn't use the kaioken so his "version" of Goku was actually quite weak. Souls in Dragonball are basically little wispy clouds that don't seem to have much substance, much less ki.

>That timeline chart

I'm surprised they never took advantage of the second one on there that we never saw. Would make an interesting alternate timeline. Goku doesn't die, presumably Gohan doesn't become SSJ2 because they wouldn't need to train after killing the androids, and Cell is still asleep underground to emerge sometime around about when DBS happens.

>>864988

That'd be a good timeline to shoehorn the 'Everyone is important' thing people want so bad, seeing as there's no SSJ2 (well, there will be as Goku and Vegeta both attained it at some point on their own) and no reason to use the Room of Spirit and Time.

And Cell would come out some time after DBS currently, as Trunks is 14 in Broly, which is how old Mirai Trunks was when he went SSJ in the History of Trunks special. Wasn't there a year or two inbetween that and Trunks going back in time?

>>865007

>Wasn't there a year or two inbetween that and Trunks going back in time?

One year I think, as I was pretty sure he was stated to be 15.

One thing that confused me, while we're at it: the thing in DBS where they say that time moves forward at the same rate in each timeline. So if you spend a week in the main timeline and then go back to the future, a week has also passed there. Well, this REALLY didn't seem to be the case in Z. Trunks travels back in time at the age of 15, and then goes back to the future. Then he comes back a second time after the three years have passed in the main timeline, just in time for the (wrong) androids to show up. But it doesn't look like he's any older, certainly not THREE YEARS older.

Just doesn't make much sense. All of the "timelines", whether official or fan-made, are mere sequences of events, with no real indication for where the years are going.

Hey, Buufag, you might like this.

https://may.2chan.net/b/res/589383719.htm

>>865383

Well, instant transmission is just a teleportation ability, not a combat technique, and so doesn't require a high power level like a kamehameha or something.

Anyway, the main thing with magic is that the power resides outside of the user. It doesn't matter WHERE it comes from (often not even discussed) but it's definitely not inherent to the wizard using it. They essentially summon or borrow this power by using the right spells/rites/gestures to bring it into the physical world, and only under those conditions. So anyone can use that technique provided they can perform the correct invocation. There isn't any particular skill or strength needed to do this.

The depiction of the instant transmission at times has been that it's an alternate dimension or a "hyperspace" through which the user travels. The implication, sensibly enough, is that the user enters this space and exits it somewhere else, and the time this takes them doesn't apply to the physical universe as time flows separately between them. Hence, in the physical universe it's instant, even across vast distances. This COULD be a magical ability, as this hyperspace exists outside the user — it's not just moving really fast — and requires knowing the technique to enter it.

As for creating matter, it could also just be teleportation. When Kaioshin "creates" a cube of katchin, maybe he's just summoning it from the core of a planet made of the stuff. I dunno.

>>865084

Trunks went back to the future then came back to the day of the android arrival.

>>865510

>When Kaioshin "creates" a cube of katchin, maybe he's just summoning it from the core of a planet made of the stuff. I dunno.

So when Piccolo does the clothes beam, is he just summoning an outfit from his closet or something?

>>865672

I mean he could be.

It would certainly raise the question of: "Why does he have a Gohan-sized version of his own outfit in his closet." though, and the answer might creep you out...

We even see Goku randomly doing psychic abilities. I think that psychic powers are basically magic like abilities performed by non-magic users. They work more like superpowers rather than a spell in a spellbook. General Blue had that paralysis eyes, no magic words, hand waving, it just works. Psychic powers are like hotkeying a magic spell while magic is like crafting a spell on the fly.

>>865510

>Well, instant transmission is just a teleportation ability, not a combat technique, and so doesn't require a high power level like a kamehameha or something.

If Ki was just Vigor and Mind, it would be easier to understand but there is also courage. People understand that magic is generally for weaker individuals but apparently Goku can learn it when he has shown to have no inclination to magic. I guess that magic suppose to be manipulating the energy around you (except if you have a pool of magic energy like Buu) and Psychic power is forcing a spell to run on your Ki.

Just retcon my shit up.

>>866042

That's... too much retcon.

I thought they cloned Broly for a second time or some shit.

>>866042

>Retcon ALL the things

Also now all Saiyan children in their little pods are carefully swaddled in machinery, because apparently showing baby dicks in popular anime series is passe these days.

Watch out: they're definitely coming for your lolis next.

>>866123

Pretty sure I've seen naked girls in anime, too. Just not as often because of cultural reasons and boys being naked being a joke.

But that wasn't my point in the first place. My point was that this is an obvious indication that Japan is throwing away their own standards to capitulate to Western norms and mores. If you think they'll stop with boys, they won't.

>>866042

Dragon Ball Minus is now canon. More plot device-jin lore. Frieza did nothing wrong.

>>864196

>As a matter of plain fact it's impossible for a living being to get anywhere near a theoretical 100% of their strength. This is the kind of thing that would immediately result in ripping out tendons and shattering their own bones. Hence the body naturally limits it most of the time, and in times of great need allows a little but more.

This is literally the point of Kaio-ken and other similar techniques.

>How would five Saiyans holding hands generate god ki?

Literally magic. It's a magic spell. Which makes sense because it's to become a god.

>How would training enable someone to tap into it by themselves?

Goku is that much of a savant, who is so good at copying techniques that he learned to naturally copy a magic spell. Vegeta is then so envious that he trains until he can copy whatever Goku does if he tries hard enough.

Not saying they're good excuses, but those are the best excuses you're gonna get.

>and arguably this has been happening since Dragonball when King Piccolo was able to kill Shenron, who up until then was portrayed like a divine being.

King Piccolo was also the devil. If anything he's more of a god than Shenron. But once Goku becomes more powerful than God, which happens very shortly after, then yeah I'll concede that the line becomes irrelevant. He also was long stronger than Korin, who is also some sort of divine being.

The series is always about finding ways to push Goku further, and finding new "strongest guys" to overcome.

>Strongest man in the world (Roshi)

>the Devil (Piccolo Daimao)

>a stronger devil who is explicitly stronger than God (Piccolo Jr., who Goku needs to become stronger than Kami to beat)

>aliens, since everything on Earth has already been exhausted (Saiyans)

>the alien's boss, the strongest alien of all. AKA the strongest guy in the universe (Frieza)

>uh.... robots. Because we need new guys to literally be created since we already established that Goku is the strongest guy in the universe.

>death itself, by training his son to overcome him and leave a legacy, just like Roshi did with him (training Gohan to beat Cell)

>all the strongest guys who ever lived, and now continue to train to get even stronger in Valhalla (Otherworld Tournament. Yeah it's filler but it is the next logical step for Goku)

>a magical monster who is essentially a combination of a God of Kings of Worlds, and his boss, the actual top god of the universe, the Grand God of Kings of Worlds. So the current top god of the universe comes to Goku for help and finds out that even Goku's weaker friends all make all the gods look like a bitch (Buu)

>the destructive counterpart of all the gods, who is much stronger for some reason, who Goku can't beat but essentially trains Goku to finally become a God (Beerus, Super Saiyan God)

>the strongest guys from an alternate universe that has even stronger guys than his own universe (Universe 6)

>all the strongest guys from every alternate universe (Tournament of Power)

>in the process of beating the strongest guys from every universe, he became on par with Beerus, the strongest God in the multiverse, so he'll need to beat him soon (got Ultra Instinct, and Beerus is the only God of Destruction who has that)

>then he'll need to beat the Angels

>then Zeno

>then he'll need to travel to Multiverse 6 and beat everyone there

>>864950

Also, the manga had Future Trunks explicitly warn that 19 and 20 are coming.

So long as we're talking about the time travel, here's what's always bugged me. I know you'll just say it's a fuckup but it's more fun to try to make sense of it.

So the most unaltered timeline is Cell's timeline, so we'll call it Timeline A. Trunks from Timeline A goes back in time and this creates a new timeline we'll call Timeline B. He warns about the Androids, comes back to Timeline A, goes back to Timeline B, helps to kill the Androids, and returns home to Timeline A where he kills Future 17 & 18 but then Cell kills him and goes back in time.

Cell going back in time creates a new timeline we'll call Timeline C. In this timeline, Trunks arrives from the future, presumably Timeline A, Cell absorbs the Androids so they have to kill Cell, and then Trunks returns back to the future. But since Trunks has knowledge of his own future, due to Cell going back in time from further in the future, essentially information the information of Trunks's future has gone back in time to before it happened in its own timeline, this creates a new timeline where Trunks kills Cell instead of Cell killing Trunks. We can call this timeline D.

The issue is, when Cell goes back in time, Trunks arrives after him. What timeline is that Trunks from? He can't be from Timeline A because it's established that he returns to the same timeline he came from, but there was already another Trunks from Timeline A that Cell killed. There's timeline D, but that is only created when this Trunks goes back to the future with knowledge from further in the future that he got from Cell.

So are there more timelines? Timeline B is already one that we never actually see but is only briefly mentioned. When would this theoretical Timeline E have been created? Does Cell going back in time in fact create two new timelines due to the timeline he's traveling back in time to before another instance of time travel by someone who left before Cell did and therefore wouldn't be affected by Cell's time travel? Or do timelines actually exist all along because they are pre-destined to be created by time travel that is pre-destined to happen? Even if that's the case, I don't know if it ends up making any sense for the Trunks that travels to Timeline C, to originally be from Timeline D. Though maybe.

And that's not even mentioning the clusterfuck that is the time travel in Super. But we can just ignore that for now. They make clear that the idea of timelines pre-existing isn't true, but if that would make sense in the context of just the original manga then I'll buy it regardless of Super.

>>872114

My point is that, on the face of it, Trunks from Timeline A seems to go to both Timeline A and Timeline B on the same trips. As if Cell going back in time creates not just a new timeline, but a new Trunks. And Trunks travels back and forth to the future several times before he eventually would create a new timeline with the knowledge of Cell from his own future. But each time both Trunkses, from the timeline with Cell and the Timeline without Cell, are seemingly going back to the same future. Though perhaps they are just two futures that are similar, but when did the timeline that the Trunks that Cell created goes to come from?

>>872264

Youtube deleted it? Lame.

I think he said in the video too, that the timelines themselves are "absolute" so unless the event was time travel related, only one out come happens. Black "winning" isn't a possible outcome and neither is Beerus deciding to not erase Zamasu." Perfect Xenoverse plug, but what was even the point of 2 Mais and 2 Trunks.

Just going by DBZ, timeline 2 is still a complete mystery, and timeline 1 must be depressing as all hell for Bulma. Unless time lines are suppose to start merging at some point? As in, maybe Trunks that goes back after the Cell games could find his "Corpse", aka the other Trunks that got his time machine stolen and then killed by Cell. Fucking time travel.

Probably why they blew up the other time machine in super. They just didn't want to even bother with it.

>>872274

>>872264

I don't actually like Plagues of Gripes because he is a filthy DBS apologist but I found a mirror. I'm not going to watch it because I already knew that time travel in DBS is fucked up (and also DBZ if you look deep into it but it has more to do with Toriyama changing things in the plot midway).

DBS had Goku Black follow Future Trunks to the main timeline for no reason and had Goku trigger Zamasu despite Goku only visiting Zamasu to investigate Goku Black. Any retard can see that is fucked up. The DBS manga is much more straight forward with time travel.

>>872578

>had Goku trigger Zamasu despite Goku only visiting Zamasu to investigate Goku Black

Yeah, this. That was the biggest problem with time-travel in Super. The entire time in Z it was made out to be branching timelines in a multiverse, and then suddenly they wanted it to be a stable time-loop with self-fulfilling prophecy? There's nothing in particular wrong with that, but just changing it like that in the middle is nonsense. Plot holes are plot holes, but this...? This is just plain not giving a fuck.

>>872626

>And they killed him

Wait, what?? But Dr. Gero WAS Android 20.

Toriyama really didn't know what the fuck he was doing.

>>872595

You could argue that the Time Rings function differently than the Time Machine. But even if I were to pretend that were the case, I'm not even going to begin trying to understand what the fuck is going on with the time travel in the Super anime.

>>872691

I took this to be a combination of two things 1) Trunks didn't realize Gero was 20 and assumed, and 2) some sort of Darth Vader "from a certain point of view" bullshit. Also, the panel is a straight up plothole even ignoring this, so it's somewhat irrelevant.

>>872768

I suppose if you squint really really hard you might imagine that Trunks had no idea what number designation his androids were (they were just "the androids"), and somehow was wrongly informed they were 19 and 20 at some point. Perhaps he and Gohan investigated Gero's lab and found research notes for 19 and 20 and jumped to the wrong conclusion. It wasn't until Trunks met them in the main timeline that he learned they were actually designated 17 and 18.

Of course, this begs the question: what happened to android 19 in Trunks' timeline? Because the only changes that were made for the main timeline was that everyone had trained to be strong enough to fight the androids as they knew they were coming, and Goku was still alive. Perhaps Gero and 19 showed up as before and were fought off, so Gero went to his lab and activated 17/18, same as the main timeline. Which would actually mean that the only thing that changed for the main timeline was that the androids were stronger (for some silly reason, almost invoking the predestination thing again) and then Cell showed up. If Gohan wasn't even there at the time (perhaps taking care of his mother?), he also wouldn't have known that there were other androids, just that the current androids were who killed all his friends.

Of course THIS begs the question: why were Future 17 and 18 such assholes? Instead of just beating up everyone and walking away like they did in the main timeline after fighting them, they straight-up killed them. Did hanging around 16 for all of five minutes make them more laid-back? Did his incessant yammering about killing Goku make them decide to go kill Goku right away, instead of taking the time to finish everyone off?

Oh yeah, and where the fuck was 16 in Trunks' timeline...?

>>872776

>Because the only changes that were made for the main timeline was that everyone had trained to be strong enough to fight the androids as they knew they were coming, and Goku was still alive.

They never say this, though. If the Androids are also stronger in the new timeline compared to Trunks's timeline, I think we can also figure other changes might have also happened. Perhaps 16 and 19 were never activated. But I agree that that's not as fun an explanation.

Goku never fought any androids in Trunks's timeline, but did in the main timeline. So that presumably changed things a bit. Maybe that caused the fight to go worse for 19 and 20 and this changed the specific circumstances of how 17 and 18 were activated and resulted in 16 being activated when he wouldn't have otherwise.

Aside from that first panel, Trunks repeatedly talks about 17 an 18 being the two Androids in the future, and not 19 and 20. So perhaps 19 and 20 don't even exist in the future. Maybe Trunks showing up and killing Frieza changed things so much that Gero made 19 and also turned himself into an Android. It's clear that since Future 17 and 18 are not as strong that Gero did build his androids differently in the present timeline. This same butterfly effect of being stronger, having Gero activate them under different conditions, having Trunks around, probably all influenced them to also be less evil. The other thing I think is probably most important, because it fits a recurring theme of the show, is that Goku surviving resulted in his good nature rubbing off on people. He never met them, but perhaps his influence on everyone else caused them to act differently and be spared. At the least, he spent much more time with Piccolo in the present timeline, training with him for three years. This would make Piccolo a much better person than before. Also, Vegeta obviously acts differently with Goku still alive than he would otherwise, since his whole thing is competing against Goku. The rest of the cast would probably also be even more pessimistic if Goku were actually dead.

So the real question comes down to if there's any way to justify that initial panel where Trunks talks about Future 19 and 20. Is that Trunks perhaps from a different timeline? You could say that the Trunks that comes back in time the second time, after the Androids show up, is from a different timeline than the one that showed up the first time. It almost makes sense because Cell already killed one future Trunks and then went back in time to before Future Trunks arrived in the past, so there must be two future Trunks because the future Trunks that Cell killed went back in time to a timeline where Cell hadn't come back in time, and he can't go back in time to two timelines at once. Of course that Trunks also killed 17 and 18 in the future, not 19 and 20. Unless he killed 19 and 20, but 17 and 18 were activated by the time he did, so he had to kill them as well. But this is really stretching things. This would then also say that the second time Trunks came back in time also created a new timeline, which it feels like it should. It's weird that some instances of coming back in time would create a new timeline, but others wouldn't. It then raises the question of what timeline would be created when Trunks came back in time the third time, after Cell was defeated.

>>872578

>I don't actually like Plagues of Gripes because he is a filthy DBS apologist

When was this, it seems like he loathes it just like most people who aren't retarded.

>>873317

>Yamcha, the guy who wanted to use the Dragon Balls to gain the confidence to talk to girls, apearently cheats on his first girlfriend, the richest woman in the world.

This plot "twist" never sat right with me. What little character development Yamcha got was totally inconsistent with adultery.

>>873317

>Why did Dr. Gero went back to energy absorption rather than give himself infinite energy?

Presumably he thought that energy absorption would eventually lead to a higher maximum power level, while infinite energy was infinite, but could never improve. (Of course, Super belies this by having 17 and 18 get stronger with training, but... well, fuck Super.) If you look at Cell, who eventually became stronger than everyone, it was specifically because he had his own odd method of absorption.

>Backtingles was totally okay because Trunks and Goten got SSJ at a young age

Don't even get me started with that shit again.

>>873317

>Where did the heart virus came from?

I always assumed it was a War of the Worlds thing where Goku was especially weak to a regular earth disease. But moreso I think it's like what happens in Superman: The Movie when his dad dies of a heart attack. As powerful as he is, he can't beat nature. The virus doesn't need to be anything special. That's not the point. If anything, it being special would defeat the point.

All the other stuff is butterfly effect though, yes. You can somewhat justify it further by saying that Trunks coming back in time gave Gero data on the strongest fighter yet. But then he says he wasn't even aware of Super Saiyan, so nevermind. But did Cell have data on Super Saiyans? I forget. Or Frieza for that matter. If they had Frieza data they should have Trunks data.

Having Goku as an actual goal and 16 keeping them on task seems like a reasonable explanation for the Androids ending up less evil. Perhaps they weren't as evil at the beginning of Trunk's timeline but got worse over time as nothing was there to deter them, especially after they killed everyone.

17 and 18 never had specific "Kill Goku" programming. They knew it was what they were made for but they had enough free will to disobey if they chose. They were still interested in it though because they were essentially bored gods just looking for something to do, and that seemed as good as anything else. Yet without that goal, they would just go even more mad with boredom.

>I don't know when Toriyama planned for Android 16 to be based on Gero's deceased son but he hasn't been revived unlike Android 8 which doesn't much make sense. It can be assumed that Future 16 is still buried in the lab.

Android 8 is quite clearly a cyborg like 17 and 18 and not a robot like 16 or 19. I've heard people argue that since Arale comes back to life when the earth is blown up, robots can come back to life. But I think the circumstances of the wishes are different. Buildings get restored when the earth gets restored, too. I think wishing the whole earth back would bring back non-living things like robots, but when they just wished to revive everyone that Cell killed, that wouldn't bring back objects that he destroyed, like buildings or robots.

>>873353

Perhaps 17 got stronger by training his organic components like a regular martial artist, and the android parts merely gave him a head start.

>Backtingles was totally okay because Trunks and Goten got SSJ at a young age

I can buy backtingles because presumably it still only works if you're extremely powerful. The U6 Saiyans were extremely powerful but just never learned this technique, and what we previously saw was that this technique required an extremely high power level and then also a certain physiological response, which was initially triggered by emotion but eventually mastered so that they could cause the physiological response without the intense emotion. So essentially all they did was have slightly more intelligent, but not doctor level intelligent, characters try to explain that physiological response, but still in a way that a not particularly smart person would explain it.

>>873317

>Future Trunks' timeline got destroyed and was fixed with time travel.

It wasn't, though. They very explicitly went to a new timeline that already had a Trunks and Mai. Which is obviously going to be super weird for them. They should have just kept them as main characters in the present. If that was completely off the table, then have him join the Time Patrol at this point. They still can, I suppose. Say that living in a timeline where he is a near exact copy of another guy sucked, so he became a timecop.

>>873394

>Perhaps 17 got stronger by training his organic components like a regular martial artist, and the android parts merely gave him a head start

Aside from the bombs, there's never been any even vague description of what the cybernetic enhancements to 17 and 18 even were. Structurally they seem completely human; they even bleed. I doubt Toriyama thought about it, either; just went "They're cyborgs which makes them stronger, yes, yes..."

>The U6 Saiyans were extremely powerful

Except they weren't. They were total scrubs until they got transformations handed to them with zero effort. And it was still nonsense, as every single other time it was stated to need an emotional trigger. That's even how CABBA got SSJ, so you can't say that the U6 Saiyans are somehow different.

It was nothing more than a bullshit plot device to get the Mary Sue Saiyans to SSJ in a single episode. Which, narratively speaking, pisses me off more than anything else about it! Because they could have just fucking off-screened that whole training montage, left it a mystery as to how they achieved SSJ so quickly, and it would have been perfectly fine. It's the perfect shining example of how the Toei writers were completely incompetent at even the most basic skills of the craft.

>>873436

>Aside from the bombs, there's never been any even vague description of what the cybernetic enhancements to 17 and 18 even were. Structurally they seem completely human; they even bleed. I doubt Toriyama thought about it, either; just went "They're cyborgs which makes them stronger, yes, yes..."

While I'm sure you're correct that Toriyama didn't think about it too hard, the explanation Super gave that they basically have artificially enhanced cells works for me. It's not without precedent in science fiction, and they still fit the term "artificial human." Other examples I can think of include the first Marvel superhero, The Human Torch, who is consistently referred to as an android (no translation error this time) but is made up of "Horton Cells," named after the scientist who created him. Which felt like it made sense in 1939 sci-fi. The first Android we meet, No. 8, is a Frankenstein monster, and Frankenstein is obviously organic, but still an "artificial human." And there have been adaptations of Frankenstein dating back to Edison at least where he's grown in a vat rather than stitched together. A homunculi is still an artificial human. In a way it makes more sense for them to be absorbed by Cell this way, since they're closer to him than you'd think if they were just humans with metal and wires stuck under their skin.

>Except they weren't. They were total scrubs until they got transformations handed to them with zero effort.

They weren't though. In Universe 7, Goku and Vegeta are insane supermen who make the rest of the Saiyans of their universe look like absolute chumps. In Universe 6, they're weak compared to Goku and Vegeta, but obviously much, much stronger than any Saiyan other than the ones who got strong on Earth/Namek. Just because they lose to Goku and Vegeta doesn't mean they're not way stronger than Frieza was when he ruled the Galaxy.

This isn't to say that they couldn't have done a montage, or have it offscreen so, say, Cabba sees Vegeta do it and then vows to train to achieve it some day, and next time you see him, several arcs later, he's actually done it. But "back tingles" isn't quite as stupid as people try to imply. It doesn't change the lore the way people try to say. It's not the most emotionally fulfilling thing they could have done for the viewer, but in effect, all they were doing was explaining what Goku and Vegeta had learned to do when they mastered Super Saiyan and were able to do it without getting angry. The anger caused them to burst forth with it first, but the entire point of Super Saiyan 2 is that Goku learned to control SS1 like it was normal for him, so he could do it without getting angry. He located the physiological response that triggered the transformation and was able to train to do that without the emotion that first caused it. Of course he's a retard and can't explain it well. Cabba could explain it a little better. I figure Gohan would be smart enough to actually explain it without sounding as dumb as Cabba, but he has no Saiyans to tell it to.

>>873521

>Plagues of Gripes insisted that they aren't Mary Sues because Japan doesn't have SJWs

Mary Sues predate SJWs by like 50 years, so obviously he's just being a moron. And clearly using his channel as a thinly-veiled political soapbox if that's the kind of garbage he typically spouts.

>One of the biggest problem of DBS is, unlike DBZ or DBGT, you don't get the impression that everything will be fine after Goku and Vegeta are gone

I'm still not convinced that 17 and 18 aren't immortal. They still look like teenagers after like 20 years since Cell. Of course... since Trunks and Goten are also teenagers who seem to be aging in reverse, I'm not sure one can be convinced of anything anymore.

>>873552

>And clearly using his channel as a thinly-veiled political soapbox if that's the kind of garbage he typically spouts.

He does dislike DBS but he thinks that it is terrible simply because of the typical shonen power creep. He had to ignore that DBGT wasn't just DBZ with bigger numbers or how DBO was insistent to be closer to the manga rather than pander to normalfags. I don't like everything from DBZ. I didn't like how all of the background characters forgot the events of the original DB and believed Mr.Satan's lies. Only Superfags think that anyone thinks DBZ was perfect. I don't like any of the DBS characters except Beerus and Whis and I would rather those two be written out because of the problems that they create. Those who liked the Saiyan girls are the same normalfags that liked Rey from the Force Awaken. Yes, there is also SJWs but what made the Force Awaken successful is the normalfags just wanted a New Hope with bigger everything.

>>873584

>what made the Force Awaken successful is the normalfags just wanted a New Hope with bigger everything

It's funny. In New Hope we felt more pain over a single planet being destroyed than in TFA with several getting destroyed at once. It's exactly like Super. It's a tournament to decide the fate of the entire fucking Universe, unlike those in Dragonball which decided nothing more than bragging rights (and a cash prize), and yet we give less of a shit. Looks like bad writing is bad writing, no matter how high the stakes are.

>>873521

>So they never gotten angry before?

Not as angry as Goku did when he met the guy who blew up his planet and then killed the last member of his race and then also was blowing up the planet he was on and also blew up his best friend in front of him. Or as angry as Vegeta was when thinking about how a pleb like Kakarotto became a Super Saiyan instead of him. The rest were all trained to become Super Saiyans on purpose. Even if Goten and Trunks ended up sorta doing it by accident, but it was while training with people who were aware of Super Saiyans and trying to make them stronger.

>DBS made DBO and Xenoverse non-canon. Too bad for Trunks that they retconned the Potara earrings.

I was trying to read the various Dragon Ball Heroes manga recently, but can only find translations for the first 15 chapters or so of the very first one, Victory Mission, and then the first few chapters of Dark Universe Mission, which introduces Time Patrol Trunks and stuff. It doesn't all line up with Super, but the Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime treats Time Patrol Trunks as the same guy as the Future Trunks that fought Zamasu. There seems to be no major reason that stuff can't still take place in the main timeline. Most of the characters are explicitly from other timelines anyway, but there's no reason to think the central timeline is also an alternate one to the main series.

>>873923

>Not as angry as Goku did when he met the guy who blew up his planet and then killed the last member of his race

He didn't particularly cared too much about those things.

>and then also was blowing up the planet he was on

Frieza wasn't doing that before he turned Super Saiyan.

>and also blew up his best friend in front of him.

And no Saiyan in U7 or U6 has ever had anything just as bad happen to them?

As I said before, the state of Dragon Ball discussion is arguing about when characters pull something out of their asses rather than the asspulls themselves. Future Trunks unlocked SSJ Rage not from watching Goku Black kill his mother but Future Zamasu "victim blaming" Future Trunks. Cabba unlocks SSJ1 from an empty threat. Frieza unlocks a golden form by training for 4 months yet he still can't sense Ki when Goku can sense Ki since the original Dragon Ball.

>I was trying to read the various Dragon Ball Heroes manga recently

DBH does whatever it wants but so does Xenoverse. I just liked that Xenoverse didn't just folded Earthling and Saiyan into one race. There just isn't enough Saiyans for most of Earth to be part Saiyan.

>>873821

>It's exactly like Super. It's a tournament to decide the fate of the entire fucking Universe, unlike those in Dragonball which decided nothing more than bragging rights (and a cash prize), and yet we give less of a shit.

That is because Goku has lost several times before finally winning. It was Goku's one goal in life. Now, despite Goku technically not winning any tournament since, he is still crowned the strongest fighter. Also, making the stakes too high means that he must win.

>>874113

>Cabba unlocks SSJ1 from an empty threat.

Goten gets it from sparring with his human housewife mom.

>Frieza unlocks a golden form by training for 4 months yet he still can't sense Ki when Goku can sense Ki since the original Dragon Ball.

Because he wasn't aiming for that. The point was that he was just focused on pure strength. He didn't even bother to master his new form before going after his target. I like to think he even purposely aimed for a golden form to be like a Super Saiyan, or else he'd just end up like Cooler. But yeah obviously that's headcanon and they weren't thinking about it at all to that degree.

>That is because Goku has lost several times before finally winning. It was Goku's one goal in life.

He still does though. He hasn't beaten Beerus yet though he probably will shortly after the Broly movie. He lost to Hit sorta, in the same "sorta" way he lost to Tenshinhan. Jiren took all sorts of teamwork to beat, which doesn't fucking count for Goku but it won't matter because next time Goku will be more powerful than him anyway. Just like how Tenshinhan technically won but Goku quickly surpassed him so hard that Tenshinhan became irrelevant.

Beerus has been a looming threat since 2013. Something Goku has been training to overcome for five years. So he's not the strongest and he knows it. Whereas he thought he was the strongest since Piccolo, but new guys had to keep showing up. It's not just that he's not the strongest known fighter that makes it worth anything. It's the execution.

>>874199

>Goten gets it from sparring with his human housewife mom.

Why do people keep saying that? It seems like that scene was just the first time Chichi saw Goten transform. I assumed that Goten and Trunks don't need to unlock SSJ1. It is simply the case of activating it.

>>874199

>He still does though. He hasn't beaten Beerus yet though he probably will shortly after the Broly movie. He lost to Hit sorta, in the same "sorta" way he lost to Tenshinhan. Jiren took all sorts of teamwork to beat, which doesn't fucking count for Goku but it won't matter because next time Goku will be more powerful than him anyway. Just like how Tenshinhan technically won but Goku quickly surpassed him so hard that Tenshinhan became irrelevant.

Did you even read the rest of what I posted? Besides in the original Dragon Ball, he re-enters the tournament the next year instead of going to a bigger tournament. When he finally won the World Martial Arts Tournament, he was so happy.

>>874226

>Why do people keep saying that? It seems like that scene was just the first time Chichi saw Goten transform. I assumed that Goten and Trunks don't need to unlock SSJ1. It is simply the case of activating it.

People don't say this because it's even dumber than saying he got it while training with Chi Chi.

I can get your point though that beating Piccolo Jr at the tournament, saving the world from the devil, proving he's stronger than God, while simultaneously winning the tournament and being recognized as the strongest guy in the world, was a logical end point for the series. People talk about how Cell was a logical end point, and Frieza before him, but the end of the Piccolo Jr arc really had a lot of things all line up to tie together for an ending.

>>874472

>People don't say this because it's even dumber than saying he got it while training with Chi Chi.

Why is that? It isn't like fighting his mother was traumatic.

>I can get your point though that beating Piccolo Jr at the tournament, saving the world from the devil, proving he's stronger than God, while simultaneously winning the tournament and being recognized as the strongest guy in the world, was a logical end point for the series.

No, my point was tournament arcs suck after the original Dragon Ball. The Cell Games was only a tournament in name. The tournament in the Buu saga wasn't the main focus and was mostly an excuse to bring everyone together. The Other World tournament was filler and stakes were low enough that Goku could legitimately lose without affecting the plot.

DBS basically had two played straight tournaments. While stakes in U6 arc tournament weren't that high, the show wasn't going to change the status quo that drastically for a tournament. The only point of the U6 tournament arc was to setup for the ToP. The ToP started out with the idea that the strongest fighter would get a wish from the Super Dragon Balls. Everyone already knew that the winner (most likely U7) will wish back all of the other Universes. People made theories about the ToP being interrupted because of how boring the real plot is. While the concept was bad, the execution was also bad. Teamwork and strategy was replaced with more ooga buga bigger powerlevel. Writing was a mess like they were actively changing the story as it went. Thing about them always planning to destroy the Universes contradicts the Zamasu arc.

Superfags genuinely get angry about certain characters getting weaker in the manga even if it meant everyone else is also weaker.

>>853275

>>853276

>>853277

>>853278

Power level speculation is gay. They're introduced when Raditz shows up for the express purpose of showing that they aren't reliable and that our heroes are beyond scientific numerical observation.

Apparently the next villain is El Hermano de Hit, Knuckles Blanco.

>>875608

El goblino...

This scene alone is the reason why I will never think GT is better than Super.

>>875879

<Bringing back villains is why I prefer a show that takes bring back villains seriously.

Golden Frieza is gay.

>>875608

>I lived to see the day that Dragon Ball rip-offs Sonic.

>I lived to see the day Dragon Ball fans are more autistic than Sonic fans.

I'm not old enough to suffer like this.

>>875980

It's more like a Star Wars rip-off, tentacles in the head are a common trait in plenty of humanoid alien species in the Star Wars universe.

>>876013

Yes, but I like making fun of Superfags.

>>876930

>Normalfags were the ones watching Super.

This. DBS is Super Plebian tier.

>>874546

>The Other World tournament was filler and stakes were low enough that Goku could legitimately lose without affecting the plot.

This is largely the case in the Tenshinhan arc as well, though. And I'd argue perhaps in the first tournament as well. The tension in the Tenshinhan arc isn't so much about the plot but about Tenshinhan's character development. What would change if there was a different winner in either of the first two tournaments? Would Goku stop training if he won? No. Would Tenshinhan not become a good guy if he lost? I doubt that. Granted, these endings wouldn't have been as fulfilling from a character perspective, but the plot wouldn't be affected. Of course the Otherworld Tournament was filler so it comes across as even more pointless, but I argue Goku winning that is a logical thing for him to do at that point in the series. Right before he fights a monster who killed all the strongest Gods, he is established as the strongest mortal who ever lived (after he was previously already the strongest man in the world, after beating Piccolo, and then the universe, after beating Frieza).

>Thing about them always planning to destroy the Universes contradicts the Zamasu arc.

How? If anything, I always thought they should have said that the Zamasu incident convinced them to get rid of a bunch of universes so that they're left with a more manageable number, with less of a chance of one crazy fucker like Zamasu doing this again.

>>874859

I actually think Chi Chi training Goten is a great moment because it shows some actual character development for her. But people get mad about the kids becoming Super Saiyans because it completely devalues a concept that was still treated seriously up to that point. But then the Buu Saga is so comedic, it's almost like this was just one more way of letting you know that the tone is gonna be different from the last few arcs.

>>876924

The only things more powerful than Whis would be some of the other Angels, right? And Zeno I suppose. If Super was good I'd be excited for the point when Goku has to fight the Angels. But I'm sure Super will make it as boring as possible.

>>878021

>This is largely the case in the Tenshinhan arc as well, though.

That was my point.

>How? If anything, I always thought they should have said that the Zamasu incident convinced them to get rid of a bunch of universes so that they're left with a more manageable number, with less of a chance of one crazy fucker like Zamasu doing this again.

It was a throw away line in the anime only put there to absolve Goku of blame. The manga showed the Zenos deciding to destroy the Universes after realizing that there are too many and most are stagnating. The mortal level is a stupid concept. It is implied to be related to powerlevel but that could just be Beerus being a shit GoD again.

>>853275

You are now aware GT was better than Super.

>>874894

>They're introduced when Raditz shows up for the express purpose of showing that they aren't reliable and that our heroes are beyond scientific numerical observation.

Yeah, except they are very reliable, the *most* reliable indicator of any given fight. The only thin it needs is an endurance counter to it as well.

>>873317

>Where did the heart virus came from?

Low class, aka heritably poor, guy who eats like a pig has heart trouble in his middle age? You don't say?