/a/ - Animu & Mango

>>777480

The whole tranny part really turned me off and I didn't care to keep following after I caught up with scanlations.

Too many time skips towards the end. Felt like it was being rushed.

There were what, 5+ timeskips? I didn't initially care, but then after a 20 year skip we get an 80 year skip which we barely see before a million years+ skip.

Truly, he was fire punch.

I still don't get the ending at all

I guess they were finally happy being the people they'd become and could finally die. Pretty sure the theatre was used to symbolise death, wasn't it?

>>777480

I only liked it for the incest undertones.

>>777480

A fucking waste of time, its a manga about nothing. I actually like it up until the part where he met the ice queen, it has a story arc, a characters have motivation and everything serve a purposes. After that where he goes and meet Doma for second time is when the manga turn to absolute shit, nothings matter anymore, it just a series of events that happened with no consequences to the story development. And it become more apparent with the time skip which you can tell the mangaka doesn't care at that point and just want to end it immediately. If I have to sum it in one sentence about the manga, its "things happened, the end". It's literally just that, all that moral dilemma Agni is facing, his revenge, his influences, new characters and world building, its all amount to nothing because theres no story to invest in.

All the contrarian hipster that praise the manga for being "different and refreshing" by not following a traditional storytelling arc never explain how not having a story is actually good.

>>777488

Would have liked it better if Director-san just wanted to kill herself, but couldn't, so she hyper-obsessed on movies to keep from going insane. Otherwise, it was a pretty fun ride overall. It's a mess, but it's a fun mess. I wouldn't be surprised if the author explained in interviews that everything was more symbolic that they initially let on (San & Luna = Sun & Moon, etc), but I wouldn't be surprised if they just pulled an Araki and forgot to define and explain things and they didn't care enough to go back and try to explain it.

As a straight revenge story set in a fantastical apocalypse it was/would've been excellent. As it is it's jap flavored grant morrison diarrhea.

It's only "fun" for the wtf retarded factor of how anyone could write shit like this and expect it to be appreciated or valued. It seems to fall under one of those "everything is pointless so stories should be pointless" themes that I've come to despise in fiction.

>>779258

It's enjoyable for being so bugfuck crazy. I'd love to read what the author's intentions were.

>>779257

> It seems to fall under one of those "everything is pointless so stories should be pointless" themes that I've come to despise in fiction.

This actually a perfect description of the manga.

>>779263

I'm certain that if someone asked him. he would say something along the lines "I have no fucking clue"

>>779258

It only comes off as pointless and nihilistic if you purely look at the destination of all events and everybody but Agni and Luna dying and being discarded out of the story. Moreover, you'd have to completely disregard everything Agni goes through after killing Doma and his sense of identity being shattered after losing his sense of purpose for revenge. The actual events that transpire are dsfjkjhaaak and often non-sensical (WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH GIANT TREES?), but Fire Punch is a character-driven story and how Agni is influenced by those events, as crazy as they are.

It's ultimately a personal story about Agni. The sidecharacters don't last long because they exist to serve as catalysts for Agni's development in life bef

accidentally hit post button too soon

>>779351

before being unceremoniously thrown away. Points can be made about sidecharacters often being wasted potential, but they serve their purpose.

It's kind of shallow and nihilistic in itself to say the story is about nothing because eventually (almost) everything within the story returns to nothing, but it really is about the journey as clichéd as it sounds. At first Agni decides to dedicate himself to enact vengeance on the man who killed his sister, which is the only thought which kept him sane throughout his initial years of being set on fire and so becomes his only reason for living.

After killing Doma, he doesn't really know where to go next anymore, torn about the fact that he might be as bad or worse as the man he killed. Soon after, he decides to live for the sake of others with his 'sister', but has to put up a facade because he doesn't really know how to find his own happiness other than to maintain the happiness of others, as his conscience for his deeds as the Fire Punch starts weighing down on him. He doesn't even know whether he's the big fiery brute everyone saw him as, or the kind onii-chan the family he's staying with is seeing him as, and just goes along with the act which slowly kills him inside because he knows he's faking it.

Once his past catches up with him, he decides to drop the act and become the other thing people saw him as in order to root himself into reality: a big fiery brute. But as San remarked, a big fiery brute who goes around killing everything without remorse is not who Agni really is. It's again only an act. Hflpyupppp happens and Agni gets reborn as 'San', free of the burden of memory and the expectations of those around him, though he comes to understand his past actions as he watches the movie Nenetto filmed about his time with the Director, where he's actually having fun to some extent and is not just a straightforward murderer or something he isn't, but just a guy trying to find his own place in the world. He survives long enough to meet up with Luna, and is glad for once for having stuck around.

Too many different kinds of things happen in the second half to be just generalized as 'dude suffering lmao'. The first half largely details the insanity of the world and everyone in it trying to find a reason for being in a world about to meet the end, be it through religion, love, or other base urges. The middle part is about attaching value to things you know are fake, be it through your religion being based on a lie, your sister not really being your sister, the messiah not being a real messiah, and people lying to themselves in general. The movie symbolism isn't just for show, as everyone is shown to play another role consciously or unconsciously ("What a fake smile...").

I think too many people went in the manga just letting themselves get dragged around by the inherent absurdity of the unfolding events, though it makes more sense as a personal psychological story, and would benefit from being re-read with that in mind. It's not about these sidecharacters, but it's also not about nothing either. After some point it moves on from being a revenge story and is IMO more interesting from a psychological perspective although not as fun, which might be why most people are left sour by it.

>>779250

Different and refreshing? If that's another way of saying it's insane and "what the fuck am I reading?" then sure.

>>779424

>Not every writer writes a story the same way anon.

except theres no story at all, I would be more forgiving if there is a story but that's not the case,its just random events happening.

>She became close to Agni

It's a pointless scene and a pointless sacrifice, Agni doesn't gain anything from her death and it doesn't resolved anything

>He sent most of his troops, I really didn't think about it, I just assumed he had shit to do since he's the priest of that entire village

They found out about Agni long before he sent his troops. But instead of meet him, he just left him alone until he doesn't want to left him alone.

>She had already been a tree once

It's not her choice, she doesn't want to be a tree, she just want to die.

>Yes, you could've cut this whole thing after Judah become a tree for the first time and you'd probably still get the same ending, but then instead of having a rushed and off-the-wall ending you'd have a rushed off-the-wall ending with no substance.

What substance? everything is pointless. theres no character development, theres no arc, theres no plot and theres no goal to achieve, it doesn't leads to anything, shits happened and Judah turn herself into a tree for a billion years, the end.

>>779636

> What substance? everything is pointless. theres no character development, theres no arc, theres no plot and theres no goal to achieve, it doesn't leads to anything, shits happened and Judah turn herself into a tree for a billion years, the end.

How the hell can you read the manga and come to this conclusion? Do you seriously ascribe everything that happened to pure randomness? Do you seriously believe Agni became suicidal for no reason at all after killing Doma? Do you seriously believe Judah pretended to be Luna for no reason at all? Have you actually made an effort to understand Agni and Luna's motivations, or did you assume there were none because there was no inner monologuing to make the characters' state of minds obvious to everyone?

The reason you see people unironically calling Fire Punch kino so much is because emotions are largely conveyed through the paneling (the comic book/manga equivalent of prose/cinematography), which is what said people consider unique about FP given how most manga go for the inner monologue approach in storytelling, and that FP doesn't beat you over the head with the usual Japanese storytelling clichés (aside from pseudo-incest?).

It's not even that deep or hard to understand, post-Doma the story follows the usual downwards spiral for main characters of revenge stories who find themselves with no purpose in life after vengeance is finally enacted on their target.

Your harping on traditional storytelling formats and the way you describe your understanding of the story comes over as if you only paid attention to the text bubbles and skipped most of the panels when there wasn't anything 'happening' in them, leaving you with little insight in the internal character struggles and general confusion given the absurd nature of the external events. I'm serious, re-read the manga and try comprehending what the paneling is supposed to convey instead of letting it sling you around for the ride. Just because the plot beats aren't made incredibly obvious doesn't mean it's not there. I'm re-reading BLAME! right now and even that has an actual plotline if you pay attention, though most people are left bewildered by the pretty artwork and leave confused.

>>779789

>Just because the plot beats aren't made incredibly obvious doesn't mean it's not there

What.Fucking.Advantage.Is.There.To.A.Story.That.Obfuscates.The.Fucking.Story.?

Every fucking post defending this shitpile just showcases why it is a shitpile, hiding the story making it more difficult to follow or less powerfully felt is a severe fucking disadvantage. It's a lot done to obfuscate an incredibly shitty character story, firepunch is hot garbage.

>>779943

>What.Fucking.Advantage.Is.There.To.A.Story.That.Obfuscates.The.Fucking.Story.?

The way you phrase this makes it come off as that every story development needs to be clearly stated to the audience through dialogue so even the most inattentive pissant can tell what's going on, and abandoning the idea of "show, don't tell" in a visual medium. Imagine how redundant all of the panels would feel if they all had a thought bubble detailing a character's current thoughts and feelings which we can already see on their faces or infer through panel composition. Given how heavy Fire Punch is on the cinema symbolism, it's fitting that it heavily utilizes visual storytelling, as most movies don't have characters talking to themselves like in your usual anime or manga. The usage of paneling is also what made that one particularly praised comic book called Watchmen successful, you might have heard of it.

It's not so much obfuscation as you're expected to actually pay attention in order to understand what's going on, as opposed to a mangaka straight up telling you what you're supposed to know and beat you over the head with it. It also makes for some interesting discussion on what the author meant with his shit, like with Neon Genesis Evangelion to name a fitting example.

I can't really agree with visual storytelling being inherently bad because of it inherently not making everything obvious to everyone, as I'm no fan of stories where the author doesn't respect my intelligence and feels the need to constantly remind me of what he's trying to say but I already understood from the get go. Moreover it's a waste of the medium when movies or comic books don't make an effort to use shot/panel composition for storytelling or when videogames don't use interactivity as a means of storytelling but instead try to emulate movies.

Though requiring the reader to put in some effort into understanding the unfolding events doesn't make it particularly accessible as not everyone will understand it.

>>779943

you are arguing with some pretentious arthouse film student that find "deeper meaning" from something retarded like fire punch

>>779948

>The way you phrase this makes it come off as that every story development needs to be clearly stated to the audience through dialogue so even the most inattentive pissant can tell what's going on

what story? there is none, theres no plot.

>It also makes for some interesting discussion on what the author meant with his shit

oh, its one of those "up to the readers interpretation" crap, and you still insist that fire punch have an actual plot. Well, from my interpretation, the mangaka is fucking retarded and based his next chapter on a dice roll

>>779954

Fire Punch is not even that deep, it's just got a keeno sense of paneling and an unorthodox character-focused story which makes it prone to misunderstanding by many.

>>779958

>what story? there is none, theres no plot.

Do you really understand the events in the manga to such a degree that you can safely say that nothing of importance happened, that none of the characters have been impacted or changed in any way, that whatever the manga was trying to do fell flat on its face because the manga was sabotaging itself, and that it's a series of disconnected events with no relation to eachother? Or did you understand nothing at all? Otherwise you'd really have to make your case and understand what actually happened in order to come to the conclusion that really nothing happened, which would take more effort and arguments than saying there really isn't any plot at all (and hopefully won't have its goalposts moved to trying to argue that although there is a plot, it's just done badly).

>oh, its one of those "up to the readers interpretation" crap

>oh

You yourself don't even know whether that's really the case, do you? Else you would have brought it up yourself to begin with. I merely brought it up as an example for stories heavy on visual storytelling in general, though it shouldn't apply that heavily to FP given that it essentially is a basic revenge story, and shouldn't be that complicated to understand in the first place.

Also for that one other point you seemingly ignored, do you really have a beef with the idea of "show, don't tell" and feel it's actively detrimental to stories in general and that everything should be made very obvious to the reader?

Really, this isn't even that deep of a manga or even anything other than a 7/10, but to say nothing happened for the sake of nothing is just retarded.

>>779975

a bunch of tl;dr and you have yet to explain what the second part of the manga is about.

I read through the entire manga between the past two days, and frankly, the damn thing sucked. First, the manga makes a big deal out of a religion that by "pure coincidence" is aesthetically similar to Christianity. Then the author dives into how horrible it is to be a woman in this world where because of religion, women are viewed as either breeding tools or sex slaves. After that, the author treats us to two side characters who announce themselves as gay, then they never appear again. Just when I thought the author couldn't get any more pointlessly liberal with this crap, it turns out that one of the main characters is a fucking tranny. You don't have to look far to see why the author is as brainwashed by Jewish media as he is when all he ever talks about is Hollywood movies.

However, those are all relatively superficial aspects of the manga, and don't necessarily make a story bad. What made the manga bad was something else.

I've noticed two arguments in this thread so far, both of which I partially agree with. The manga was, in fact, a character-driven manga focusing on Agni and his inability to let go of his sister, along with searching for a way to live on. Frankly, the entire series revolves around that theme, with side characters existing only as mediums for it. However, the manga lacks a coherent story. The manga story in the manga can be simplified to random events happening with no thought put into it. Reading the damn thing just gave me a headache for how empty it was.

It's very possible to both have a plot centered around a central theme, message, or character, and tell a story. Evangelion did it, Punpun did it, and Umineko did it Hell, that last one even had a tranny and/or gay character in it, and I even liked that aspect of that character. The problem with not having a coherent story is that the events are sprung on the readers with no rhyme or reason, leave little impact, and ultimately fail to convey the message.

tl;dr Fire Punch does have a message, but absolutely terrible execution, and lack of a real storyline gives readers no reason to care enough about the characters for the message to have meaning.

3/10

>>779980

>a bunch of tl;dr and you have yet to explain what the second part of the manga is about.

<post-Doma the story follows the usual downwards spiral for main characters of revenge stories who find themselves with no purpose in life after vengeance is finally enacted on their target

You see Agni trying to rebuild the old life he had with Luna by deluding himself into thinking that this random girl is really Luna. You see Agni losing his sanity because he knows he's keeping up a lie and everybody is seeing him as something he himself believes he isn't. You see Agni become increasingly suicidal as an attempt to escape immortality and atone for his sins, only to be lived back. You see Agni giving in to his Fire Punch persona and going full Face/Off. You see Agni getting reborn because of hpfdjsksdffff and Judah/Luna trying to live for Agni in the same way Agni did for her.

I'll agree with >>780012 that the actual events which happen are logically disjointed and often make no sense. I do not believe however that they leave no impact on the characters within the story as there's certainly a point to the things happening, though the manga's tendency to pick up new things as soon as it drops them and the edgy nature of it all makes it hard to believe there's any thought put into anything. It's easy to get swept along and expect crazier shit to happen after crazier shit only to get disappointed by the mellow ending. Other stories have done similar character journeys better, but more coherently as well where the world and other characters do not just revolve around the main character.

>>780021

Y'know, in a real ironic twist, I feel like the whole thing could work as a movie. Just cut out a lot of the edgy and sjw bullshit in the beginning and put all the focus on scenes that develop the characters, scenes like this >>779424 pic. Replace the pointless, infuriating liberal crap with motivations that make the story come together better, like what >>779257 suggested for the Director. Add some good cinematography and have a great soundtrack that fits the emotions the characters, and I think we're looking at a potential masterpiece here.

>>780021

>post-Doma the story follows the usual downwards spiral for main characters of revenge stories who find themselves with no purpose in life after vengeance is finally enacted on their target

Are you fucking retarded? Agni given up on revenge TWICE and he doesn't kill Doma out of vengeance. He choose to saves the prisoners, he talked it out with Doma and all is well but then out of nowhere we are introduce to faceless fire punch. The whole scene with him saving the prisoner are now pointless.