/v/ - Video Games

>>16836750

y tho

l never really get into transformers, maybe its because of the bay movies but i just couldn't see the appeal

>>16836759

Have you watched the 86' movie? It's just so great.

HEY

>>16836762

As somebody who likes Transformers in general, it's really not. I mean it's not awful or anything, and I'd rather watch it than Bay shit, but it's not good. Maybe fun, probably not bad, even enjoyable (although not for the reasons it intended to). I will say it's really influential in the lore, but Transformers lore is fucking weird to begin with. I'll back you up on Devastation since it's just Bayonetta but better, but don't lie to people.

>>16836771

Wait, why not? It's a great action movie.

Nocturne or DDS

Wild Arms 3 is fun

Zone of the Enders was a fun mecha gaem

Sonic Rush i enjoyed in my opinion though some may not like it because dimps and muh boost

Soul Hackers has a great late 90s feel to it that was enjoyable

Obvious recs like deus ex, morrowind (if you can bear the old graphics and slow movemont or if your into mods), Bloodrayne, Sunshine or 64, Kazooie/Conker/DK 64, Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3

The Neverhood i guess

thats all i can think of right now

>>16836775

beats me

>>16836773

It's okay at best. It's probably partially your nostalgia speaking saying it's great. Again, it's not bad, but it was a toy shilling marketing scheme's feature film, trying to sell you on the new toys by killing off the old product, and which went through so many different scripts that the people who worked on it didn't really know what the plot was anymore. Calling that greatis a stretch I wouldn't make, personally. Maybe good, if you have a lot of nostalgia for it and are really into Transformers. There isn't much in Transformers I'd call great, but I'm one of those people that really likes Beast Wars and Animated, after having grown up on the G1 cartoon because I found a GoBot in the garage and thought it was cool and my dad misidentified it (or saved me from being a GoBots fan, either way).

>>16836759

Whatever you do, don't read the comics. Trannies and gay faggotry abounds.

>>16836771

>As somebody who likes Transformers in general, it's really not.

You're not into Transformers in general if you think TF: The Movie really wasn't great. Feel free to stop being a retarded faggot.

>>16836945

I sorta understand that it can be overhyped due to nostalgia factor, at least. But it was pretty great for its time and holds up fairly well today.

any game that appeals to everyone is shit

>>16837936

>>16836945

I'm going to say it was probably better than the average episode of the original cartoon, and baring a few really bad and dumb episodes the original cartoon was pretty decent for 80's cartoon standards, but the next time Transformers was on TV in the form of Beast Wars it was on average better than the G1 caroon. Like, even the fucking stupid episodes of Beast Wars are better than the worst of Gen 1. Granted the awfulness of B.O.T. can be amusing enough that you might prefer it to The Low Road, but I don't think anyone can actually enjoy Carnage in C Minor.

Man there's so many little things I'd want to change about devastation.

>Remove the RPG shit entirely it only works to make the fights too dragged out of sad levels of short even on the hardest difficulty, character levels if you play long enough go on to ruin most difficulties.

>Either remove regen or change how last chance works, if you regen the slightest bit of health you now have 2 hits worth of health left now.

>co op, so many segments where you have 2 auto bots together and none of this is co op, wack feeling.

>Platinum rank design in general (Do boring repetitive task every time you play this level or else rank will suffer)

>>16836750

God that game was good

>>16836759

>Giant robots whose main gimmick is that they can transform into cars and trucks, but actually are ancient aliens

I could never get into Transformers even as a kid, because I have always found its premise simply too ridiculous, nonsensical and absurd to trigger my suspension of disbelief - even for anime, and even when I was a kid at a time when the Transformers toys and cartoons were all the rage among children.

I know I've been into shit that's probably even more nonsensical and absurd, though. Maybe it's just the way it's presented.

>>16838164

>too bad season 3 also skimped out on the usual pretty full out ones.

Blame AKOM, I mean I do. Compare that to Call of the Primitives, which is one of the best animated episodes of the series, and due to fandom autism research it was discovered it was done by Ashi Productions, which was a subcontractor of Toei at the time.

>>16836773

A great movie doesn't shove in a whole new cast of characters right away, kill off classic established characters, & waste most of the movie on a plot around helix aliens with ADHD being the benevolent creators of Cybertron. Yes the animation was great for the time & improved a lot from the cartoon's usual quality but the writing leaves much to offer. How many people really love Hot Rod? How many thought he was good enough to replace Optimus? Obviously not many because they had to bring Optimus back in the TV series later.

>>16838430

>waste most of the movie on a plot around helix aliens with ADHD being the benevolent creators of Cybertron

I like how five faces managed to merge with the movie in your head. The Quintessons were totally unexplained in the movie, they just appear kill a guy and then get their shit kicked in.

The movie only really stands by itself, its basically totally detached from the cartoon.aside from season 3 obviously

the new cast functions well enough really for a movie premise but season 3 was pretty much filled with Rodimus whining. The old cast besides Optimus are background characters for the autobots by the final version.

Hot Rod was meant to grow into a leader, but he's stuck in a perceptual loop in season 3.

I don't think you understand what caused the whole bring back optimus thing, it was some kid threatening to kill himself because of how much he liked Optimus, not because of how much he hated Rodimus.

>>16838438

They take up too much of the movie & stand out more than Unicron himself. Of course they stick in my mind when thinking about the movie.

>The movie only really stands by itself, its basically totally detached from the cartoon

That's the problem. It's a movie based on the cartoon. It should work off of the cartoon. Not write in new characters out of nowhere you're expected to care about rather than characters kids already know. Sure the new cast come into their own but that's because all the other options are gone.

>I don't think you understand what caused the whole bring back optimus thing, it was some kid threatening to kill himself because of how much he liked Optimus, not because of how much he hated Rodimus.

That sounds like bullshit but I'd believe. However, if hatred over Rodimus wasn't real then explain how every new iteration of the franchise has to have Optimus in some form as the leader despite being new continuities? It's because of nostalgia & the fact he's the iconic character that worked. Rodimus didn't. Even Cliff Jumper has more of a memorable character than him.

>>16838444

>It's a movie based on the cartoon. It should work off of the cartoon

I mean it is in line with the cartoon to shill a new group, thats not an new factor technically due to it being a toy cartoon and all that.

>However, if hatred over Rodimus wasn't real

Rodimus hate obviously exists, i'm not saying it didn't what i'm saying is that it wasn't notable enough for them to change their decision.

However Hot Shot exists for a reason you know. Hot Rod is memorable but they don't want to deal with the fallout of killing off optimus again.well fallout for killing him for more than ten minutes

And yeah Rodimus wasn't memorable outside of being whiny and trying to hand off the matrix.

>It's because of nostalgia & the fact he's the iconic character that worked.

And you know Brand image, and because of the aforementioned fallout from the time they tried to do so. People remember transformers from its highs, so either G1 or the movie; and the latter mostly aped the former because it was the brand in the average eye.

>Even Cliff Jumper has more of a memorable character than him.

Cliffjumper actually had loads of personality though? He always stuck out quite a bit when he was around. He was always one of the more standout autobots.

At least in G1.

Sengoku Rance

>>16838472

>I mean it is in line with the cartoon to shill a new group

Yes but it is poor writing to introduce new character… by not introducing them. Hot Rod is just thrown it outta nowhere & we gotta act like he was always there.

Don't forget they killed off Optimus in the Marvel comics way back when too. I guess that & the death in the movie really cemented it in Hasbro & Takara's minds that people don't like change or killing off an iconic character for too long.

Cliffjumper I only remember in recent memory for dying. In Prime & in the Bumblebee movie. Then also the Gridman anime which has a lot of Transformers references. Oddly enough to Bayformers & Shattered Glass.

>>16838478

The movie doesn't really have much time to explain it, it really feels like they intended to have the movie characters show up in an episode before the movie. But yeah thats poorly done.

But this is the movie that decided "decepticon generic to turn into a sweep" had to be the character called by the script later.seriously whats with the zero checking for what characters were meant to be dead

>Don't forget they killed off Optimus in the Marvel comics way back when too.

That was more in line with how they do it nowadays, marvel Optimus died and came back pretty quickly.

>Cliffjumper I only remember in recent memory for dying.

Yeah cliffjumper is pretty maltreated nowadays, but his G1 self was anything but random fodder. He was pretty much a key character in the pilot and stuck around for most of it. He only dropped out around season 3 because of disputes with his voice actor.

>>16838484

The Deceptions being turned into new characters was another issue too. Not only do we have no definitive idea which characters became which but there's also no consistency to how many there are. There's even animation errors in the transformation scene showing double of the same character sometimes. Then the Sweeps just keep multiplying by unknown means in season 3 till they're just goons. Really G1 is a mess of consistency.

>>16838488

Never forget cyclonus and his armada.personally i never got why they canned it, its a fun unifying gimmick for him and scourge.

But seriously if you look at script Shrapnel is clearly treated as a major character and wasn't meant to be thrown overboard, but the story boards decided to slap him in and forgot to even remove him from later scenes.well one scene by the final

The movie originally made me think the sweeps were drones, and that it wasn't really a matter of transformation in terms of actual mind. The toy bios make it pretty clear who Scourge and Cyclonus are meant to be.

But Toy Cyclonus was never reflected in the cartoon, hes not cold and logical; he's loyal which is the opposite of what he was made of. Which kinda makes it look swapped in terms of who is Cyclonus.

G1 and consistency were never a thing, you had the whole flying autobot thing from the start.

>>16838511

I guess nostalgia is really powerful when something as messy as G1 has stood out in people's minds so much that most new iterations are aping it.

>>16838406

>Or if you mean the movie, nah its a pretty

Mediocre big budget toy commercial meant to kill off old toys so you would buy new ones, you just have shit taste. No, Welles being the big planet toy doesn't legitimize it being good either.

>>16838515

Transformers never really has had a good base. A cleaned up G1 base is perfectly usable, its just layers of grime from how much crap was built on it originally.

As long as you just grab the basic premise it works. It just falls apart if you fall back too heavily. The only massive successes are still G1 and Bay at the end of the day sadly.

And the latter ain't very usable. Most lore for TF was either built in post or from marvel really, they definitely don't really pull from the cartoon for that.

Beast Wars isn't a good format base for Transformers, nor is any of the unicron trilogy.technically car robots is but its only really good for a short show.

Another attempt at something bright and new for transformers in a bigger medium than say comics is basically destined to happen eventually right haha.

>>16838528

Saying the intention of the movie doesn't automatically make it bad you know.

It has a nice sense of scale for a movie and the cast works perfectly fine, pacing is also mostly fine. I'd call it a decent product. Its main flaw is giving zero shits to its history mostly.

The animation is actually pretty iffy for what it is, some very clear animation errors.

>>16838393

While Bloodrayne isn't as good as titles like Devil may cry or Bayonetta i still think the game stands up on its own mostly the second one in my opinion other than that i was mostly referring to 2nd runner which was enjoyable save a few levels

>>16838550

>Saying the intention of the movie doesn't automatically make it bad you know.

It sure as shit doesn't make it good. Let's just say if you saw it when you were 6 and enjoyed already liked Transformers then it's "ok". Objectively speaking it's a mediocre long form toy commercial in a franchise made up of toy commercials. If you're over the age 12 then it's natural to not have any connection with Transformers.

>>16838565

It's still not essential playing. Really the only thing Bloodrayne is essential for is seeing how games used to get away with using attractive female sex appeal for marketing without cucks and trannies reeeeeing at it.

Real talk, a lot of you niggers are becoming worse than actual normalfags/boomers in how you think your personal nostalgia can be used as an objective measurement of quality. Protip: it isn't

>>16838601

>It sure as shit doesn't make it good.

Yeah uh, no u doesn't really do jack in this scenario. Good non-argument you've got there.

>>16838164

>>16838394

Transformers lore sounds like such a clusterfuck these days that my head spins just reading people talk about it on imageboards. To me looks like the franchise has grown gradually edgier and taking itself too seriously over the years.

If Transformers was only about "robots who can transform into vehicles", but instead of aliens they were advanced AIs created by some super secret organization to fight commies and terrorists or the army of some megalomaniacal Bond-style / GI Joe-style villain set on taking over the world (who also would have their own vehicle-transforming AI robots) or some shit like that, I'd probably be able to get into it.

>>16838629

Bumblebee is still very much to be seen, while the movie shows some promise it shows massive flaws in other places.

And said movie in question is pretty detached from the usual scale transformers calls for.

>bay movie games

You mean prime, man aligned was an absolute shitshow. A great showing of why trying to tie projects with different writing staff together will usually totally fuck it up.

disney starwars shows it as well, but the pieces in that are a lot less interesting; brand name aside.

Though Dark Spark was pretty bad, i'd still blame Primes nonsense in regards to the aligned concept moreso to the actual death of it.

Yeah i'd consider the alien robot part a selling point as well, i kinda always thought it was a major point in the original mania during the original cartoon as well.

If you didn't have all that cybertron stuff i don't think it would have stuck out as much.

Elite Beat Agents

>>16836759

It's cool sci-fi about a cool group of aliens. In a lot of the best parts of the franchise, such as the Marvel comics, and Beast Wars, the fact that they transform isn't particularly important. But they have a lot of cool stories and a lot of interesting characters.

Personally, I never got into the '80s cartoon as much as Marvel or Beast Wars, because that one really fails at characterization, and its stories are much less complex. I liked it when I was a kid, but Marvel and Beast Wars are still good now, as an autistic adult.

>>16836871

No, DO read the comics, but read the original comics from the '80s, from Marvel. Those ones are great. Also, Beast Wars is technically a sequel to those comics, and not to the cartoon.

There were also UK exclusive comics that were basically "filler" because UK comics back then were published weekly instead of monthly and they needed more content to justify it. But the filler was so good that they hired the main guy writing them to take over the main US original series as well. Most of the best Transformers stuff comes from this guy.

I stopped giving a shit after they rebooted the whole series after Beast Machines. I've read the convention exclusive stuff in the original universe, and it's pretty cool. Now I have to get into the Japanese stuff, since that's also basically the same universe. Though even that basically ends after Car Robots. Sometimes they say it's still the same continuity today, but that's bullshit.

Later comics are all different universes and shit. Apparently the IDW comics are set in the soy universe where robots can be trannies somehow.

TRANNYFORMERS: HOMOS IN DISGUISE

>>16836762

>>16836771

The movie is basically a feature length music video. The story is better than most of the cartoon, but not the best thing ever. The visuals have errors if you're paying attention. But if you just want stuff that looks cool and matches up with rad '80s music, then the movie has that covered.

The movie doesn't even explain what Unicron is. The comics had to explain that later. The cartoon also tried to explain it, and it sucked, so no other version ever uses that origin for Unicron. That said, when watching the movie, I'm too busy listening to Weird Al or Stan Bush, and looking at cool flashing lights, to care.

Also, the movie is basically canon to both the cartoon and the comics. The plot is so insignificant that it can basically fit into both universes. Of course the comics have all sorts of alternate futures, and idk if the movie makes sense with the last one, but it fits one of them.

>>16838406

>and beast wars takes a while to get good comparatively.

Beast Wars season 1 isn't as good as 2&3, but it was way better than the G1 cartoon. The worst episodes of it are still about on par with the best episodes of the G1 cartoon, and everything to do with the Vok, or the initial two parter, is a million times better. But ignore that and just look at normal episodes. At least new characters get properly introduced and have actual personalities. Also, the primitive CGI is still better than the terrible animation that most of G1 had.

>But even when it gets there it isn't really about a robot war so much as a very secluded fight, despite all the big set-pieces it rarely fits the premise.

You could hesitate to call it a war considering there are only like 20 combatants, but at the same time, the smaller number of characters allowed them to actually all be fleshed out. I'd say it's worth it.

I do agree though that Beast Wars isn't representative of the franchise. It's the best part of it, but unfortunately most of the rest of the series doesn't take the right lessons from it. The G1 cartoon and movie are what everyone remembers. The movie is better than the cartoon and you can watch it in 90 mins. After that, just read the Marvel comics, which are a better version of the cartoon.

>>16838438

>it was some kid threatening to kill himself because of how much he liked Optimus

>implying Hasbro or any of the other companies involved would spend any extra money in changing all their plans for the franchise instead of just letting a kid die

I like Hot Rod/Rodimus, but I think the biggest problem is that his "young autobot" bit overlaps too hard with Bumblebee. I like the idea of this unassuming little guy growing up to take over for Optimus one day, but if they were going to do that, they might as well have done it with Bumblebee, who was already filling that role and was already basically the second most important autobot. What even happens to Bumblebee after Hot Rod shows up anyway? In any continuity? He's made redundant. Or he makes Hot Rod redundant and Hot Rod just shows up because he's the one who gets the role of becoming the next Prime.

This entire bit was done much better in Beast Wars/Machines with Cheetor. What happened with Hot Rod would be like the equivalent of if Nightscream ended up taking over for Optimus, despite him just being a less developed (and less likable) version of Cheetor.

>>16838478

>Yes but it is poor writing to introduce new character… by not introducing them. Hot Rod is just thrown it outta nowhere & we gotta act like he was always there.

This was standard practice for the cartoon though. At least the movie used a timeskip so you could say the new characters all showed up over the last 20 years.

>Don't forget they killed off Optimus in the Marvel comics way back when too.

Multiple times, actually. And Hot Rod still only existed in the future, that they never actually reached except for in time travel and future stories. Instead guys like Grimlock and Blaster became leader. And Shockwave and Soundwave are leaders of the decepticons probably longer than Megatron is. Hell, the final semi-canon story that leads into Beast Wars, Alignment, has Soundwave as leader instead of Galvatron.

>That was more in line with how they do it nowadays, marvel Optimus died and came back pretty quickly.

The second time, maybe. The first time, which was near the release of the movie (when Hasbro clearly demanded he be killed off in all media) he stayed dead for a pretty long time. Long enough that Blaster became one of the most developed characters.

>>16838488

Clearly the thing that makes the most sense is that Skywarp and Thundercracker became Scourge and Cyclonus, and the Insecticons, with their ability to multiply, became the Armada and Sweeps. But fucking retards fucked it up, and other retards couldn't use their heads and figure out what was supposed to happen, so now we have Cyclonus being an insecticon and the Armada and Sweeps making no sense, when it should have been very simple.

>>16838550

The base should be mostly the characterization and lore from the Marvel comics, mixed with the basic premise of "small cast, focus on characters" from Beast Wars. I know that was only because of technical difficulties and Hasbro wants to show off all the toys, but have them be guest stars, with a small core cast. The movies especially should have done this since they don't have as much time to show off every character.

>>16838621

>Transformers lore sounds like such a clusterfuck these days

It's been a clusterfuck since the early 2000s when they did hard reboots and then a multiverse really started. They tried to unify it for a while by saying there were only one Unicron and Primus, but they fucked that up so bad they had to do a whole Crisis to fix it and just say everything was separate. Just read the Marvel comics and watch Beast Wars/Machines. And the '86 movie. That's pretty much one continuity and it's fairly simple to follow. After that, it's all rehashing the comics and cartoon anyway. And the original cartoon is just a shittier version of the comics.

>instead of aliens they were advanced AIs created by some super secret organization to fight commies and terrorists or the army of some megalomaniacal Bond-style / GI Joe-style villain

Cobra is somewhat important sometimes. In Generation 2, it's Cobra that rebuilds Megatron. But the thing is, if the robots don't have personality, I don't care about them as characters, and that's a huge part of the appeal. That's why the Bay movies suck. So even if Cobra builds Megatron, his personality demands that he betray them and then they aren't as important anymore. And if he doesn't do that, then I don't care about anything.

>>16838642

Well yeah it wasn't a perfect movie but it was a great set up for things to come with showing off the war & setting up the Autobots coming to earth. Even leaving Megatron a mystery in the background instead of blowing their load immediately was genius. They just need to work on the human characters. Everyone was fine except for Memo. There was no point to him & he just acted as a third wheel cuck.

Prime didn't have anything to do with this game. It also had nothing to do with the movies themselves. Prime just lifted some design ideas from the movie but put their own spins on them. They're separate continuities that didn't intersect anyway.

Exactly. The scifi elements are what give Transformers more ideas to explore outside of human conflicts or the basic war. For all the flaws of the G1 cartoon, it understood it can't hinge primarily on those same conflicts all the time. You gotta spice it up with other alien shit.

>>16838648

Was that really what nightscream was like? Most of Beast Machines just feels like a fever dream to me anyway.

Cheator was definitely a better hot rod in execution.

The optimus thing was really early in season 3, they could swap out the finale. Theres a reason why Dark Awakening was a thing, it was suppose to be a quick "he's not coming back".

Animation unlike toy molds can be swapped quite a bit easier.

>Skywarp and Thundercracker became Scourge and Cyclonus

The issue with this is simple, Skywarp wasn't a character in G1; he was literally 100% a grunt. Thundercracker even in gen 1 had moments, skywarp sure as shit didn't.

Bombshell comparatively was a major player in G1 alongside shrapnelwho clearly was meant to live. Sweeps and the Armada were clearly meant to be fodder, so non-characters like Kickback and Skywarp got it.

>The base should be mostly the characterization and lore from the Marvel comics

A core cast with rotation is a simple and usually done at this point anyway. Bay just tends to kill its main cast consistently.

Of course some questionable characterization is really fucking common. Though loads of transformers really deserve a better character in general even if you use marvel, like dirge who just gets to be "the third conehead who might be the leader".

Or the even more fucked characterization of haha he died multiple times in G1.

>>16838654

>They're separate continuities that didn't intersect anyway.

Fall was putting a fuck ton of leeway and trying to set up stuff in prime. It was officially the same canon as well.

Prime crashed the aligned community and only one thing came walking out of the wreck.

I wasn't implying prime interacted with bay, i mean Fall/War for Cybertron by the way. In case thats what you meant.

>>16838663

You're saying Prime was the continuation from Fall/War of Cybertron?

>>16838671

Hasbro said so, i don't really get a choice in saying what nonsense they consider true.

Prime definitely didn't really care to follow such a concept.and actively went against it with the trypticon thing, for no real reason might i add

RID2016 even referenced the connection if i remember right, something like bumblebee commenting on how Starscream went back to his old colors.

>>16838663

>Was that really what nightscream was like? Most of Beast Machines just feels like a fever dream to me anyway.

>Cheator was definitely a better hot rod in execution.

Well Nightscream was a bratty little gayboy, which was basically an amplified version of early Cheetor. But that amplification made him really unlikable.

Cheetor was done well because it was done slowly. He basically acts like a kid in Season 1, which is weird because he doesn't look like a kid, but whatever. When he becomes Transmetal he act like a four year old anymore, but still basically a kid. Then his Transmetal 2 transformation is basically a metaphor for puberty. For as much shit as Beast Machines gets, the way Cheetor has to take temporary command when Optimus is out of commission, then even has to steal command from Optimus when Optimus is losing focus, but gives it back when Optimus comes to his senses, but is basically left as the military leader while Optimus becomes a spiritual guy, and then finally Cheetor just becomes the successor. It's a very smooth transition (unlike, say, Blackarachnia becoming a good guy). It could have been done with Bumblebee just as well, but Hasbro wanted to sell a hot rod toy instead of just letting the new leader be Goldbug Prime or something. To be fair, Goldbug Prime probably would look fucking stupid.

What really happened in the comics, and makes sense story wise, is that by the time Hot Rod shows up, Bumblebee isn't young anymore. So that's all well and good in a very long form story, but I don't think we're gonna get a very long form story like that anymore. Aligned could have been that, but well you've been talking about how that turned out. Hot Rod could have been the Jason Todd/Tim Drake/Damien Wayne to Bumblebee's Dick Greyson. But then you also need to develop Hot Rod for long enough that it doesn't feel like bullshit when he becomes Prime. But Transformers reboots all the time, so good luck getting through basically two whole generations of characters before finally getting to a good version of Rodimus.

>>16838663

>Though loads of transformers really deserve a better character in general even if you use marvel

Frankly, even though I prefer Marvel, in cases where a Marvel personality contrasts strongly with a cartoon personality, I'd go with the cartoon, because that's more well known. Marvel Shockwave and Soundwave are fucking awesome, but they're very different from the cartoon versions, so I'd probably just go with the cartoon versions, with as much of a Marvel tinge as I could fit in with the cartoon personalities. Luckily, a lot of cartoon characters have practically no personality anyway. I'd have no problem swapping just going with Marvel Blaster instead of cartoon Blaster. And Marvel Grimlock is basically just a more fleshed out version of cartoon Grimlock.

>>16838688

The current reboot comics did try to make Bumblebee into a mentor character. Only to kill off the bot he was mentoring for a murder mystery the Autobots have to solve.

>>16838693

It's stupid if the character he's mentoring isn't Hot Rod. But then the IDW comics do stupid shit like saying that Galvatron is a completely different guy that has nothing to do with Megatron. Not to mention Trannyformers.

I also hate how they keep doing stuff set after G1 that ignores G2 and especially UK. UK was the best part, and I never understood why G2 gets shit. I thought it was really cool. Alignment was cool too. I wish they'd just make all the convention exclusive stories widely available, make Alignment canon, and then just tell stories either between G2 and Alignment, or after Beast Machines. There is like one convention story that takes place after Beast Machines, but it starts crossing over with the Unicron trilogy and quickly becomes more about that then the G1 universe, so I don't care. It basically got cancelled halfway through and then "resolved" with a throwaway reference in a Unicron Trilogy comic.

>tl;dr: G1 is the only good universe/universe cluster.

>>16838707

The IDW character he was mentoring was a fodder character, so of course he wasn't anyone with weight like Hot Rod. The IDW Galvatron thing is really weird, i suppose him being separate was influenced by Galvatron II

G2 gets shit for its comic being overly edgy and for the early toyline just being reruns.it may have set the standards for many things and introduced the cyberjet mold, but it had a lot of suspect shit going on

Also for the wacky colors. Basically no G2 character is really notable besides non-toys as well. Trannyformers is really a fucked case though.

Alignment really does deserve to just be outright canon though. I'm reminded that any sort of Transtech stuff kinda just faded away in regards to beast machines sequels, even if the comics for that were never really linked.

>>16838718

Galvatron II was still Megatron, just from an alternate timeline. Making him a different guy from Megatron takes away the only interesting thing about him.

Yeah the G2 toyline isn't really notable, but I don't think the comics should get thrown under the bus with it. It was early '90s edgy, but people complaining about that turned out to be SJWs overreacting anyway. G2 didn't get so bad with it so as to ruin things.

Also, Megatron's G2 design is the best compromise for him not being a gun. They should just keep using stuff like that, if they're not gonna make him a gun.

The original idea for Transtech sounded awesome, and I wish they'd just do comics of that, since they do so many retarded comics anyway. The later thing they called Transtech wasn't nearly as cool.

Transformers makes the same mistake as Digimon, where they reboot all the time, not realizing that each time they do, they are resetting the audience's investment back to zero. Being in the same universe doesn't automatically make something good, and not being in the same universe doesn't automatically make it bad, but every time you reboot, you have to win over your audience again, and you miss out on the chance to tell long form stories that can result in much deeper characterization and storylines.

Instead, Hasbro and IDW give us stories where the Beast Wars guys live at the time of the Great War, completely removing big parts of their story, and how they see G1 as legends. That's not Cheetor. Cheetor is the guy who grew up to slowly become leader of the Maximals. Not some random guy who happens to transform into a cat. This is especially stupid since the convention stories already successfully merged the characters simply by saying that there were survivors of the Great War that, after Beast Machines, join the Maximals for future adventures. Seeing Rodimus (no longer Prime) and Arcee show up in that era and team up with those guys was cool, and functionally no different from how they were before. Doing the opposite and just having the beast guys in the past doesn't work the same.

>>16838729

Galvatron II was technically a clone though haha.

Arguably you could pull a galvatron as a Fallen type character without the actual megatron part, but then you run the question of why you aren't using the fallen. Galvatron really does only have three traits, and insanity isn't enough to hold him up by itself.

I think the weird part of G2 is still that it set the standard for everything while nearly everything else in it was as you mentioned mediocre.

My main issue with G2 Megatron these days is knowing about Megastorm, though really he really was always better as a really small trypticon.its still a case of knowing a distinct character with it as a base body

However its not like its hard to just make it G2 tron but silver orlike his blue robot master body or whatever random G2 repaint you feel like.

The endless reboots come from multiple factors really, but one of the main ones it none of these recent series have staying power besides the one for pre-schoolers.

However they do seem to forget that robots upgrading their bodies really shouldn't be that hard. Which would make new toys of certain characters piss easy.

Yeah i remember the convention stories of G1 in beast era, those were pretty fun. The comic transtech was almost a background factor in its own stories, and was more of a crossover thing in the end.

Kinda a sad use of a unique set of transformers from a design perspective. And thats only from a design perspective, what little info that exists is pretty interesting which the comic didn't really follow either.

If Hot Rod transformed when using the matrix, how come Optimus didn't shrink when taking it out?

>>16838781

Generally its a "chosen one" thing, as in the idea was probably more of a only Hot Rod can even open the damn thing.

that idea didn't really last too long

Optimus probably never had any unicron tier things to open the matrix at anyway. Even if he could.

>>16838781

In universe answer would probably be Hot Rod transforming was a way to represent his maturity into a leadership role. Whereas Optimus was already grown into this role. Real world explanation is just inconsistency.

Twinsen' Odyssey

Doom

X-COM

>>16836750

>Games you think everyone should try at least once.

Pac Man, so everyone can know how lame the 70's were that this game created a fever and movement.

>>16838647

>That said, when watching the movie, I'm too busy listening to Weird Al or Stan Bush, and looking at cool flashing lights, to care.

Did you know, Vince DiCola's soundtrack for the movie almost never actually has anything to do with the lyrical songs they included? The only exceptions are some light references to Dare or the Touch (I can't quite recall) occasionally, or at least it feels like it, and an explicit reference to Dare to be Stupid during one scene with the Junkions. I thought that was interesting. Also Vince DiCola does video game soundtracks now, I think he might have worked on Devastation as a matter of fact.

>>16838683

Dude if I told you what a continuity family was I'd blow your fucking mind. Or do you want me to break out the Japanese lore? Because I fucking can.

>>16839010

The non-vocal part of movie soundtrack pretty much relies on its own itself and nothing else, yeah.

Unicron, the decepticons and what i'm guessing has to the "autobot" themewhich is the one there are pretty constantly throughout the movie.

The decepticon theme is "the shuttle theme" which is plainly obviouseven if said track was cut, that is probably one of the purest examples of it

Jap lore is the ultimate meme, they tried to force literally everything into G1 at one point. Its beautiful.

>>16839010

Do it. Let's see how batshit this all can get. Go nuts.

>>16840584

This is an official flowchart for a starting point. The purple offshoot is jap continuity.

its from 2007 so its missing quite a lot.

Headmasters is pretty tame outside of fucking friendship beams.

Masterforce basically resets human transformer relations, and victory holds this over by being a virtue of being a sequel of that. However headmasters clearly acts as a jap season 4.its still bad so its not a "good season 4

Masterforce has the point of having two really strange gimmicks in it, its in the powermaster/pretender era with the former having a very odd reason.

However i'm pretty sure its the only case of human pretenders being human sizednot with much good reason though. It also is the first time organic head masters were a thing in jap canon, headmasters just had big bodys for headmasters empty shells for a small transformer to control.

Featuring an odd point from this concept, the excuse for the main character to look like optimus is that the main character is literally using a body intended for optimus. However the main showing

"Godmasters" the japanese version of powermasters had chi or some shit and had literal auras and such. Its main villain was a ball of energy or something, that was the source of godmasters and organic head masters; when he died the bodies just gained their own lives.

Victory was pretty tame really, brain masters and breast masters don't really do any mythical shit.

However the end of "animated G1" ZONE is an amazing clusterfuck, the main villain is a culmination of a bunch of dead decepticons and he bought a bunch of guys back to life.and shrunk trypticon for some ungodly reason

Suddenly humans are allowed back into the space age, and the decpticons are searching for a mcguffin to make a new planet. Despite being a pretty tame era of toy gimmicks micromaster era comes off as a fucking fever dream.

Despite Zone only making it as an OVA it got multiple sequels as you can see from the chart, the first of which Battlestar(or return of convoy as its listed) resurrects both Optimuswith the mcguffin from the last one. and megatronheadmasters killed him off in a really goofy way by the way, he got bullied by friendship beams and got trapped under a glacier

Battlestars main villain is Dark Nova, which due to this being only told in story pages and early drafts is totally conflicting, he's always the planet with tentacles but sometimes he has a robot mode and get run through; sometimes he fuses with megatronseems these two both get treated as canon sometimes he just falls into sun.

Legends actually made him into a Vok as an odd note, not that that is canon to anything but itself.

Operation isn't not very notable besides mentioning scrash; whos a virus or somethingand has basically been retconed to be jap Skyquake via using his body. But even then its basically a thing randomly noted.

Like most things G2, jap G2 isn't very developed.

Car Robots(RID 2001) is considered a part of their canon, basically there's this excuse manga for the time jump for the cartoon to movie period; basically starscreams ghost time travels and tries to use himself to kill everyone; but since he used a space bridge as his body he basically left everyone in limbo for a long period of time.

So they retconed car robots by saying it took place in that gap.

You know i thought Kiss Players was a alternate reality or something, but no; it takes place between the movie and season 3. Basically Galvatron crashes on earth both imbuing humans with some unicron powerwhich allows them to power up transformers by fusing with them with their kisses, hence the name and creates the "legion" from fusing into cars and such.

The legions are megatron looking things with dick tongues by the way.

Rodimus apparently gives his matrix to Ultra magnus because he doesn't consider himself ready to handle being leader while dealing with the whole galvatron thing. Eventually obviously to work with season 3 galvatron inactive body is blown into space again at some point.

Unicron tries to return by using servants who can time travel with some of his cellsso the kissing gimmick, nearly does but gets cucked by primus.

Beast Wars II still has unicrons essence be on earth and is what the predacons of that series are afterand get mutated by, the end of II has it launched into random other planets. Also humanity was wiped out by the time period.

Beast Wars neo has the predacons searching for unicrons blood again, with some of unicrons servants running around; eventually they resurrect unicron in the body of the villain of beast wars II; but intend to transfer him to cybertron; cybertron gains some horns and probably a few other things but then unicron still in galvatrons body gets fucked by a matrix gun.

>>16840714

Apparently even posting images is too hard for this site now.

>Transformers game

>no Decepticon campaign

What a missed opportunity.

Transformers is My Little Pony for boys.

>>16840740

Thats why it has stuff thats clearly catered to adults, and i don't mean just mean references like reusing characters that've been left in limbo for variety.and still pandering, but thats not a dedicated form of it

Stuff like Masterpiece toys and the IDW comiceven if it went to total shit are very clear points that its adult market is officially a part of the brand.

MLP has nothing like that, and for a good reason; the actual product is basically untranslatable. A transformer can be an impressive piece of plastic; an MLP is always just a doll gimmick slapped onto a solid lump of plastic.

>>16840737

I'm reminded of the DS movie/war for cybertron games for some reason, while they were fun i definitely wouldn't categorize them as what this thread was meant to be about.

I suppose its just because they split the two campaigns into different versions, definitely makes it stick out more; even if not for a positive reason.

If we're talking about a transformers game that kinda fits the OPs bill i'd say the PS2 armada game.which of course is literally just called transformers and nothing else for some reason.

>>16840701

>A Rank

Fuck top rank hunting in these type of games.

>>16844501

Why did i think of classics anyway, its pretty unrelated. Was i actually thinking of Henkei Henkei or something.

>>16844501

>kiss players and kiss players position have the biggest squares

Classic Japan.

>>16844620

Its a console exclusive. Like say Capcom's SFV on the PS4. Do not think Nintendo would fork out money for it to be a complete exclusive as its kind of Armored Core for scrubs.

>>16836750

Ninja Gaiden on NES. Everyone should beat that game at least once.

>>16838781

>>16838784

>>16838786

At least as far as G1 goes (because I don't know much beyond Beast Machines), the actual question is why Optimus didn't transform when putting it in. He already looked like that when he got the Matrix. I don't recall if Orion Pax is even mentioned in the comics, so Optimus might just have always looked like that. In the cartoon, Orion Pax is destroyed and physically rebuilt into his more familiar form by Alpha Trion before getting the Matrix. So it makes sense that he wouldn't revert to Orion Pax, but then Rodimus Prime does raise the question of why he transformed when Optimus didn't. Perhaps that is because HE is some sort of chosen one, beyond even Optimus. But that's reaching.

In some convention exclusive comics, which take place post-Beast Machines, Hot Rod, did revert to Hot Rod when he gave the Matrix back to Optimus (as seen in the cartoon. I don't think the comics ever cover that since Rodimus really only shows up in future stories). But by the time of Beast Machines, he has upgraded his body manually, and taken on the name Rodimus (not Prime). I always figured that was a fair compromise. Also, Arcee has upgraded herself into a spider so the convention could sell Blackarachnia repaints. But I think Rodimus was still a car. It's a text story anyway, so it's sort of moot.

Also, I'm pretty sure Optimus does use the Matrix to kill Unicron at some point in the comics. They fight Unicron a few times there. Doesn't do shit to transform him though.

>>16839010

>Dude if I told you what a continuity family was I'd blow your fucking mind.

Continuity families are a useful concept for /v/irgins to know, because it's the only way to explain how basic Pokemon mechanics work on a narrative level.

Each save file is a universe. Each file from the same version is a universe cluster. Clusters from the same Generation are a supercluster. Gen I and II's superclusters are a separate hypercluster than the one that the later games take place in, since Gen III was basically a reboot that strongly contradicted earlier continuity and even overwrote it with a remake that changed those things. Plus they weren't backwards compatible until years later, when technology was finally invented that could make contact with different universal hyperclusters.

>>16845288

Stage 6 was too much for me.

>>16846740

What, you didn't have unbreakable determination?

Man that track is just great.

>>16846713

>Pokemon

I've been arguing that for ages, possibly using some of the same wording you have. I'd argue about distinct divisional lines with you, but that's not super important because somebody else finally gets it.

>>16847206

As for an unironic recommendation, Rune Factory is on average better than Harvest Moon, although the only HM game I really liked was Friends of Mineral Town so take that with a grain of salt.

>>16839010

>Or do you want me to break out the Japanese lore? Because I fucking can.

Go ahead.

>>16838393

The fuck, are you me?

Wait

>Transformers

>Boomer

That's Gen X you buffoon.

>>16847847

Transformers lore is a really funny thing to look at from an outside perspective, just from how many times it gets fucked.

The comic lore autism was amazingly dumb, the convention stuff was a pretty much a bunch of wikifags trying to patch up holes with convoluted shit and then other wikifags screeching at them in the form of another comic.

And the whole aligned thing in general, knowing what prime was meant to follow and then watching the show sure is something.

Lore autism usually comes from being invested in the series in general really.

I found War/Fall for Cybertron decent, its probably like the fourth/third best games for transformers. Animated was pretty good yeah, can't say i agree with prime though.

That shows falls apart even ignoring the whole aligned thing. Megatron comes off as an immense retard that squanders any fucking advantage he gets, and he has gets a lot of them.

Arcee keeps on fucking bitching about her dead partnerswhy the hell does she need TWO dead partners, except when it actually could kill the writers pet where suddenly she doesn't act on it.

Starscream is inconsistent, Shockwave is bland by himself which isn't good when a good chunk of your cast happens to just be outright bland. It still has the retarded trope of a humanand a child at that being able to hack alien tech.

The show quickly tries to establish stakes exist but then it basically never happens past the early stretch outside of Dreadwing and Breakdown; the latter of who was clearly killed off because of his voice actorjust like Cliffjumper.

>Oh no bulkhead might be crippled for life

>about an episode later he's totally fine

Anyway in the case of animated its just kinda sad where it got canceled, it did well enough to actually end on a note where the main stuff could be concluded; but "lesser" stuff like waspinator were still around and kicking.

The script they showed off for a opening arc for season 4 was pretty cool, and the stuff mentioned for a season 4 in other things was also so. Animated actually got a lot of things to explain random shit.

>bad CGI

You mean the G2 commercials right? I remember that, those were a trashfire yeah. I think G1 had reruns with some CGI portions slapped in as well so it could be that.

G1 didn't use 3D, i suppose you could be talking about Beast Wars but honestly i can't see that coming off as bad around its time.

the animation itself still holds up, even if the models and such don't Beast Machines is another candidate i suppose, due to looking outright ugly.

Or the final candidate is Energon i suppose. Which means you missed the show most people of that era would say got them into transformers, Armada; which featured normal 2D animation.albeit the dub had early animation so it was extra wonky

>>16838430

Fun fact: all of those autobots and decepticons were killed off because their respective toys had run their course, and new toys were starting their run (keep in mind that the cartoon was just a half-hour advertisement for the toys). The problem was that, while the suits knew that the cartoon (and by extension, the movie) were just advertisements, the fans didn't see it that way. The fans became really attached to the characters. Fan backlash caused Optimus Prime to be brought back.

Fun Fact Redux: In the commentary for the 25th anniversary DVD for Transformers: The Movie, one of the guys who worked in Transformers and G.I. Joe said that TF:TM was released in theaters as they were putting the finishing touches on G.I. Joe: The Movie. In G.I. Joe: The Movie, Duke dies. His toy ran its course, and Flint was the new toy to start its run. However, after the backlash from Optimus Prime's death, they put in the part where (I think) Lady Jay says "He's slipped into a coma" after Duke took a cobra to the heart. Then they added a line over the radio later that says "Duke's gonna make it".

>>16847975

People say this but don't seem to understand that killing off characters was never common place.

Nor did rereleases of stuff like screamer or Optimus stop. And the insecticons weren't old 1984 toys in the first place, despite this they were chucked out with the jets.

Ain't that an odd group to kill off? Its true they clearly tried to get rid of the 1984 autobots, but they weren't against killing later bots to make it more even.since the decepticons in 1984 were very sparse

People really like to put emphasis on an irrelevant part, the alternative to having a cool death was to be silently replaced with newer characters never appearing again.

Season 3 didn't exactly use the droves of autobots that were still around either.

>>16847975

>Lore autism usually comes from being invested in the series in general really.

So it's like Bionicles then?

>Arcee keeps on fucking bitching about her dead partnerswhy the hell does she need TWO dead partners, except when it actually could kill the writers pet where suddenly she doesn't act on it.

Don't forget the random out of nowhere love subplot with Optimus, that shit boggles my mind to this day. Atleast she can turn into a sick talking bike, she's better that way.

>Starscream is inconsistent, Shockwave is bland by himself which isn't good when a good chunk of your cast happens to just be outright bland.

Now that you mentioned it, i can't remember much of the Decepticons except for him, Airachnid, Soundwave, and Dreadwing.

>It still has the retarded trope of a human and a child at that being able to hack alien tech.

Yeah, it's as if they missed Animated's takes on how a child being able to be friends with a bunch of advanced robotic aliens by not being one in the first place.

>The show quickly tries to establish stakes exist but then it basically never happens past the early stretch outside of Dreadwing and Breakdown; the latter of who was clearly killed off because of his voice actor just like Cliffjumper.

I don't know dude, Dreadwing's pretty fleshed out. Can't say the same for Breakdown though. I guess you are right that Cliffjumper was offed really early to set the stakes, but Arcee bringing him up kind of makes his death less impactful

>The script they showed off for a opening arc for season 4 was pretty cool, and the stuff mentioned for a season 4 in other things was also so. Animated actually got a lot of things to explain random shit.

Yeah it's a shame, but the finale of season 3 ties up pretty nicely. However i still get your point, while they've closed a few year's worth of arcs the snippets are promising since it showed a lot of thing that they could've done with them at Cybertron.

>You mean the G2 commercials right? I remember that, those were a trashfire yeah.

Yup, those are what i was thinking about.

> I think G1 had reruns with some CGI portions slapped in as well so it could be that.

Honestly i've never even seen the G1 shows since i wasn't even born yet when it was released

>transformers, Armada

I've only heard of it because it was made by the same studio that made GuP.

>>16848016

>So it's like Bionicles then?

I'd imagine so to an extent, though Bionicles from what a remember is much more of an extreme case in regards to its own lore.

Transformers took ages to be as strange as it is.

>I don't know dude, Dreadwing's pretty fleshed out.

Was more of a comment on how the cliffjumper thing flat out doesn't hold over past like the really early episodes, Dreadwing wasn't a voice actor issue and it shows.

The whole cliffjumper thing was incredibly bemusing if you kept up with promotional material, he was very clearly promoted as a main autobot and has a fully unique design along with being a pretty big player from G1.and only G1

But then you saw his voice actor being the rock and it became very blatant as to what was going to happen.they didn't even promote his voice actor that much weirdly

Yeah G2s commercials sure were something. I really have to question why people wanted to use CG when it was clearly not ready for such things yet.

I suppose without mass use it would have taken a bit more time then.

G1 had a shitload of reruns, realistically if you attempted to look for it at the time you would have gotten a G1 rerun, G2 had a """cartoon""" that was another edit version of G1.

The fact that multiple "rerun edits" exist of G1 is still incredibly bemusing to me.

>>16848016

>So it's like Bionicles then

That depends if Bionicles was just making up as they went along, because Transformers was just made up as they were going.

>Beast Wars

In one of the commentaries for they said they knew nothing about G1, and it was pure coincidence that there as an event known as the "great war" in the G1 series that matched up with the "great war" they wrote about. Additionally, they didn't have it set in stone that they were on earth, they basically said, if we want it to be earth we can just blow up one of the moons, so when they decided it was going to be earth they blew up a moon.

>>16848405

I've heard a couple different things about Beast Wars. I definitely know that at some point during the development of Season 1 they started going on newsgroups (alt.toys.transformers if I recall) to scope out the primordial fandom at the time, and one of the season 1 episodes was about Starscream so they clearly knew a thing or two about the lore fairly early on (although it was definitely late in the first season if "Possession" is any indication). That moon thing sounds absolutely correct though, especially since they were never sure if they would get another season or not. I'd also like to note that, by sheer coincidence, the writers of Beast Wars invented a very similar idea to one of the concepts that was never used in the final version of the animated movie. Any UK fans remember "Life Spark" from the Target: 2006 stories? Another idea that never got used was originally Optimus was going to discover the "Secret of Cybertron" that revealed it to be a transforming robot years before Simon Furman came up with the same idea because that's sick as hell.

>>16846799

>I don't remember any post beast machines anything though, was universe placed after beast machines or something.

Some of the con exclusive comics/magazines included text stories. It was in one of them. I forget which one, but they're all hella autistic and tie together, so really you need to read all of it, starting with script readings from like 1996, to multi-part text stories that never get real endings.

>they are just hyped up Micromasters in the end.

Well sure. I always saw them as a cross between Micromasters and Pretenders, since their alt modes hide that they're robots. But presumably The Great Upgrade came with stuff that upgraded their power and all that, new tech over time, so that they aren't little bitches like Micromasters. Presumably they're supposed to be as powerful as the old type of Transformers. Otherwise you certainly wouldn't see any Decepticons converting themselves.

>>16847799

There are posts above where he tried to explain it. But long story short, Takara, who owns Transformers in Japan, tried to argue that EVERYTHING that had ever been published in Japan is canon (which basically only excludes the Marvel comics and the last couple episodes of the cartoon). For a small taste of how retarded this is, they at one point tried to say that the 2007 movie was the same universe as the original cartoon.

>>16847847

>early Transformers

>CGI

underage b&. It's from the '80s. It didn't have CGI. That said, the show is meh. The '80s comics are way better. Beast Wars is '90s and CGI and it's awesome. Mainframe knew how to work within their limitations, for the most part. Now, the 2000s Transformers shows, the Japanese ones, those have shit CGI. But anything after Beast Machines is shit anyway, so I don't care.

>>16847867

>Arcee keeps on fucking bitching about her dead partners

I never watched much of the more recent stuff. Is this all a reference to that time she became a spider? Because she did that because she was emo that Daniel died, and that must have been the first time they'd have killed her partner.

>>16847990

>People say this but don't seem to understand that killing off characters was never common place.

Because network censors would throw a fit if you killed a character in a cartoon. Look at other Mainframe series, Reboot, which was forced to be self-contained comedy for the most part, until ABC cancelled it near the end of Season 2, and Canadian Network YTV picked it up and immediately started a multi-part arc where the main character dies. They managed to kill a couple characters in Beast Wars, but it was almost never something they could make a point of. Scorpinok and Terrorsaur are killed and never mentioned again so fast that if a kid blinked he would miss it. Dinobot is notable because he actually gets attention, and again that's due to it being on YTV, already big supporters of Mainframe because of Reboot, and Fox, who was the slightly edgier network, even though they still wouldn't let Spider-Man throw a punch.

Also, Hasbro was cycling out toys fairly quickly. And they also figured the old ones would still be advertised in reruns. They didn't need to keep making more commercials for the same product.

It's not like the characters were only killed in the cartoon. Many of the same ones were killed in the comic around the same time.

>>16848086

>I really have to question why people wanted to use CG when it was clearly not ready for such things yet.

ANY CGI back then was impressive. I didn't watch Beast Wars because it was Transformers, I watched it because it was the makers of Reboot, which I only watched because it was CGI.

When YTV started airing ReBoot, they also started airing random CGI shorts from the '80s between commercials. They were my favorite thing back then, and I finally found most of them recently. Embed related. It's called Transformers, but it's not those Transformers. It's just a trippy early CGI thing.

>>16848423

>Optimus was going to discover the "Secret of Cybertron" that revealed it to be a transforming robot years before Simon Furman came up with the same idea because that's sick as hell.

I hear a lot of people getting mad that Beast Machines said Cybertron was originally organic, but I always saw it as making sense, because Primus isn't technically a Transformer, he's some sort of primordial being, so organic, basically (same as their Sparks basically are), and he just happened to inhabit a rock that he slowly manipulated, and the rock was partly organic. It makes sense. Beast Machines gets an undeserved bad rep, but I think it's a really good ending to G1/Beast Wars.

>>16848755

>It's not like the characters were only killed in the cartoon. Many of the same ones were killed in the comic around the same time.

I wouldn't call like two years later at the same time really, since the comic used underbase starscream to mass genocide old toys.

>ANY CGI back then was impressive.

Not really, i don't really see what was impressive about stuff that almost seemed on par with the crap i'd seen that came from like the 1980s.

I wasn't talking about beast wars in terms of CGI usage, i'd consider early g2 commercials were around a really odd point.

Reboot was incredibly impressive yeah, and so was beast wars. But i'd considering the main g2 commercials you'd see kinda bad even for the time.

>because Primus isn't technically a Transformer, he's some sort of primordial being

The issue here was Beast wars was almost schizophrenic in what it was meant to be a sequel to, the Cartoon lacked primus and had no reason to be attached to an actual planet. Reminder that beast wars had what was clearly marvel starscream running around as a ghost.who ironically was never even dead by the end of either series.

It also ignores the massive problem that any attempts to go to the core in either series showed a very metal underbelly. Primus was literally made from an asteroid as well; not exactly something that would have fuller life than some bacteria.

The issue it also ignores is even if this was the case, why the actual fuck does the full robotic race need it; they clearly functioned as an actual species without it before.

>>16848755

>Beast Machines gets an undeserved bad rep, but I think it's a really good ending to G1/Beast Wars.

Also since i may as well mention its other issues it has;

>totally negates the point of beast wars

Even its little excuse by primal falls apart once you remember beast machines has bots getting beast mode from bones.

>all the characters get the short end of the stickexcept cheetor ironically

Man i sure did wish Rattrap became a pussy, Rhinox became randomly evil for a bit and Silverbolt became an edgelord.

How about Megatron not acting like himself until the final few episodes? Real funny that the guy who clearly liked his beast mode a bit too much was retconned into hating it.

I'm still bemused by the Jetstorm thing, yeah it sure was a good idea to bullshit about the whole "give him a choice" thing and to kill off your main comedy guy.

>>16848773

It is just better to pretend beast wars had another version of G1 it followed but it was clearly a case of miscommunication.

I really like more alien transformers honestly. So i'd consider the vehicons cool; pretty sure its a pretty common case to have with beast machines from a usual standpoint.

After all, the vehicons generals were being used as the main points of levity a lot of the time and didn't suffer from the terrible uncanny valley of the maximals.

>I'm a Decepticon sympathizer so that's probably just me.

I am as well, but the case is that i've seen people note this that clearly are not. Beast Machine maximals are very off putting from a design standpoint alone. Probably another reason why the whole techno organic thing didn't sit well with most.

After all, beast machines maximals are the main example of it

>>16848777

If you want to talk about miscommunication, I recall almost everybody higher up telling the Beast Machine writers to cut all ties with previous Transformers fiction even though it was explicitly a sequel to Beast Wars. Thankfully they ignored that, and not only tried to reconcile Beast Wars (although given what you said it's slightly botched) but threw in a couple other references to G1 lore (mostly cartoon based stuff that fags who now run the wiki definitely got off to back then).

As for Vehicons, yeah the weirdness about them is something I think is kinda cool, even in other series. Like, Whirl and Shockwave are weird cyclops guys, but there's two of them so that seemed normal (James Roberts may or may not agree, or just used them to make a point, whatever). Hell, Wheeljack's head can be interpreted several ways, although the main portrayal where he doesn't really have a mouth and talks with blinking ears is a pretty good one. I probably would like Bumblebee if he looked more like his toy's head instead of Cliffjumper but angular. People like Soundwave and he's got the same kind of face, although that might be because he has a cool voice and a cool gimmick (I fall into the latter camp). However things can get too weird, like I'm not sure why they ever tried making Ironhide and Ratchet into toys when the original Diaclone versions were clearly not even close to robots. I guess it gives "sit on my face" a whole new meaning though.

>>16848766

>I wouldn't call like two years later at the same time really, since the comic used underbase starscream to mass genocide old toys.

Optimus and Megatron died well before that.

>The issue it also ignores is even if this was the case, why the actual fuck does the full robotic race need it; they clearly functioned as an actual species without it before.

Spiritualism 'n sheit. It's all Primus's plan.

>Even its little excuse by primal falls apart once you remember beast machines has bots getting beast mode from bones.

Good point that that one excuse about bringing organics from Earth is BS. They could have just as easily said it was to prepare them mentally or spiritually for the grander plan, but they didn't. Then again, I really don't have a problem with the Beast Wars just being about stopping Megatron from destroying time itself. That's still there regardless.

>Man i sure did wish Rattrap became a pussy, Rhinox became randomly evil for a bit and Silverbolt became an edgelord.

Silverbolt was pretty gay, but I felt like Rattrap's arc made enough sense. He was never a particularly deep character in Beast Wars either (even though he was my favorite when I was a kid). Him being made the small but smart guy wasn't really what he was in Beast Wars, I admit, but he had something to do, at least. And it wasn't too jarring a change.

Rhinox/Tankor I've always defended. To be fair, he acted the same as when he was previously turned into a Predacon in Beast Wars. People say they should have reprogrammed him, but I buy the explanation that he wasn't actually reprogrammed, and instead, when stuck inside Tankor, came to change his views. This is an even more defensible case of not reprogramming him than Blackarachnia, who was actually reprogrammed from Maximal to Predacon, but they still said they wouldn't touch her shell program unless she wanted them to.

>How about Megatron not acting like himself until the final few episodes? Real funny that the guy who clearly liked his beast mode a bit too much was retconned into hating it.

Not really a retcon when they never said he always hated it. He had time to change his views as he was taking over the planet. Again, I think you're overstating how jarring this change was. It is a change, I admit, but not as jarring as you seem to imply.

I liked the Jetstorm/Thrust red herring thing. Yeah, the series went less comedic than Beast Wars, and not really using Waspinator much went with that. I liked how they did use him though. And frankly, I wasn't watching Beast Wars for the comedy anyway.

I'll agree with you that I think most of the Maximal designs aren't as good as Beast Wars, though. Cheetor and Blackarachnia in particular got too weird, IMO. I don't mind Optimus or Rattrap that much. Or Silverbolt, even though, yeah, he's barely Silverbolt. Nightscream is a little gayboy and I won't bother to try to defend him on any level.

>sweet sweet transformers autism in the thread

I also like megaman threads for the same reason.

>>16849673

Oh right, marvel megatron got treated like shit; i actually totally forgot.

Still a very different case really, since the movie would definitely not be pointed at as much if it didn't attempt to genocide the 1984 bots.

>Spiritualism 'n sheit.

It still comes off as really fucked. While this is an excuse, its not a very good one.

Its just a poorly thought out parallel that falls apart considering what it relates to.

>but I felt like Rattrap's arc made enough sense.

It made mostly sense but the issue its stuck in a series that does these extreme changes to nearly everyone, i totally forgot to mention ole pope primal.

The fact that all of these changes are slapped into the same series is extremely jarring, and "maximal" Blackarachnia isn't exactly a striking character to retain. This leaves one very pissy cheetor to have any sort of notable link character wise.

>when stuck inside Tankor, came to change his views

Rhinox is literally the second worst choice for this based on what little had going on in Beast Warsthe worst option is the very dead Tigatron.

Its true that it functions well as a fun extension of the predacon shell program thing, but it needed a better explantion and better ending than "I'm dead, am good now".

>I liked the Jetstorm/Thrust red herring thing.

That wasn't what i was talking about, Blackarachnia literally says in an episode to Jetstorm that he deserved a choice in regards to ceasing to exist.

And then in a few episodes she proceeds to force him anyway.

>He had time to change his views as he was taking over the planet.

I really must emphasize that machines megatron was clearly a case of them being unable to fine tune him, which is why he's suddenly pretty close to himself again near the end. Its not like the time period that it took megs to take over cybertron was ever stated.

Makes "off screen character development" a lot more sketchy.

There is also no attempt to explain his ideology change either, though i suppose his "bible" reading in the of beast wars matches him suddenly wanting to pull the "all are one" thing.

PokeMMO.

>>16850157

>Still a very different case really, since the movie would definitely not be pointed at as much if it didn't attempt to genocide the 1984 bots.

I think people really just remember Optimus's death and Hot Rod being a poor replacement. A bunch of older guys die or just stop being used in the comic, too, but I will admit it doesn't seem as jarring as the movie, because the movie was a movie and made a big point of killing Optimus, while the other guys happened to die in the same movie. In the comics, at least Optimus and Megatron died in different issues, even if it was close together.

>ole pope primal.

I actually like this. This is one of the main things I like about the series. Again, I admit there wasn't much of him being spiritual in Beast Wars (though a little bit right at the very end), but it fits with his basic personality, and they make a point to say that after his "reformatting" (a clear metaphor for "conversion") he actually begins to go too far and get too into his religion. The fact that he is changing so much is presented as a character flaw.

>Rhinox is literally the second worst choice for this based on what little had going on in Beast Wars

Yeah, if anything Rhinox was the most into Cybertronian religion, given he was the one who connected to The Matrix to bring Optimus back. That does bother me. I justify it by saying that at least he acts the same as in the episode where he becomes a Predacon, but that isn't nearly as significant to this particular plot as his connection to The Matrix. I do still buy his explanation, that seeing things from a new perspective for a long period changed his opinion, but that could have worked with anyone, as you point out, and he was the least likely. Of course, I suppose that was the point. To make it more shocking and painful that even he could fall.

>the worst option is the very dead Tigatron.

Pretty sure Tigerhawk comes back in some botcon story, doesn't he?

>but it needed a better explantion and better ending than "I'm dead, am good now".

Naw, because when a Transformer dies, they become one with The Matrix, with Primus himself. They then truly understand his grand plan, so it would take a truly evil monster to not then be converted to the side of good.

>Blackarachnia literally says in an episode to Jetstorm that he deserved a choice in regards to ceasing to exist.

Oh yeah. That. To play Devil's Advocate, didn't she say she would leave him alone when they thought Megatron was dead? She figured at least they didn't have to be enemies, so she would settle with Silverbolt being gone. When Megatron came back and they became enemies again, then she changed her mind.

Getting into it this deeply brings up the problem of erasing shell programs, which seem to be completely different, equally sentient, personalities that are forced on top of the spark's natural personality. They refused to remove Blackarachnia's and she was still able to naturally convert to Maximal. Tankor is stated to be a personality on top of Rhinox's and they destroy that. And then they destroy Jetstorm, and Thrust too, but Waspinator prefers to just continue acting like Thrust anyway. I suppose if anything you could argue this is a bit diffferent from how Beast Wars handled it, where Blackarachnia wasn't treated as an alternate personality, but just a forced change to her personality. They remove the shell program eventually, but by that point she had already changed naturally so the change is basically unnoticable. You could argue the original personality was underneath the entire time, and the shell just changed to be like the original, then was removed. But they certainly never say that.

>>16850866

From what i remember of what people were talking about during the time a decent chunk of people were pretty distressed by Brawn or Ironhide dying.

The hot rod thing only really settled like some time during season 3.

>The fact that he is changing so much is presented as a character flaw.

The thing with this is that it never changes, he's still the extreme preacher of the Oracle till the second he become a martyr.

Ironically despite an "extremism is evil" message being intended it doesn't really seem to go the entire way with Primals personality.

>Pretty sure Tigerhawk comes back in some botcon story, doesn't he?

I'm too lazy to check but Tigerhawk doesn't exactly act like his components anyway.

>so it would take a truly evil monster to not then be converted to the side of good.

My point about the better end part wasn't in a logic sense, but in the sense that it felt weak from an emotional view.

A major character like Rhinox getting "redeemed" off screen comes off as extremely weak.

>but Waspinator prefers to just continue acting like Thrust anyway.

It seems more likely that the bodies just repair the shell programs eventually considering Jetstorm got hit with the same goo and definitely recovered.

I'm pretty sure the Tankor case was more of said program being very weak in comparison to the being it was meant to override.

I'm reminded that Sparks weren't even meant to carry whole personalities in the beast wars days, well non-starscream sparks. Just intent.

Actually i just realized the Beast Machines shells do have a comparable case in Dinobot II.

>>16850866

>so it would take a truly evil monster to not then be converted to the side of good.

Reminds me of a probably non-canon story where, when Megatron briefly sort of dies during BM, he goes on a spiritual journey with Rhinox, but ends up killing his soul and returning.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Singularity_Ablyss

>>16850963

I totally forgot to mention the whole "all sparks are like starscreams in beast machines" thing.

Like seriously those things fly around.

>>16850963

>The thing with this is that it never changes, he's still the extreme preacher of the Oracle till the second he become a martyr.

Naw. It changes after Season 1. It's a big plot point in Season 2 that he realized he was being too extreme. He doesn't just drop everything entirely, but he's certainly much less extreme.

>A major character like Rhinox getting "redeemed" off screen comes off as extremely weak.

I don't think it was even meant to be seen as a redemption. He died for his sins. Then he made one more appearance when Optimus temporarily died (or whatever it was that happened at the end of Season 1) as Optimus's friend who died for his sins, telling Optimus not to also lose sight of Primus's true plan like he did. That scene wasn't really so much about Rhinox as it was about Optimus.

>It seems more likely that the bodies just repair the shell programs eventually considering Jetstorm got hit with the same goo and definitely recovered.

Waspinator explicitly says he prefers to just continue being Thrust, since being Waspinator sucks. So maybe the shell program just repairs, but it could go either way. They're not always terribly clear on how exactly shell programs work.

>I'm reminded that Sparks weren't even meant to carry whole personalities in the beast wars days, well non-starscream sparks. Just intent.

Well they seem to have both sparks (souls) and also programming which is more like their minds. They were never incredibly clear in the first place.

>Actually i just realized the Beast Machines shells do have a comparable case in Dinobot II.

Which I always found weird, since if anything, when he spark came through, he should have acted like Rampage. The closest it would come to making sense is that it was Dinobot's DNA that came through, so their personalities come from some combination of sparks, programming, and DNA. I kind of just overlook it because it's a cool moment, but I really wish they did that one lost episode where Rattrap gives him Dinobot's memories. At least then they could argue that it wasn't really the old Dinobot, but his memories made him have the same realizations that the old Dinobot had.

>I totally forgot to mention the whole "all sparks are like starscreams in beast machines" thing.

That's because they don't actually kill them. Both sides are mechanically removing sparks so as to put them in other bodies later. Theoretically they could still be killed. Starscream is outright immortal.

>>16851689

>They were never incredibly clear in the first place.

In the case of Beast Wars it could be reasoned either way, but beast wars is very heavily leaning to the idea that its more of a base instead of a personality; considering backups exist.

>That scene wasn't really so much about Rhinox as it was about Optimus.

This still really doesn't change my point, its not a very hitting ending.

>Waspinator explicitly says he prefers to just continue being Thrust

Waspinator also shows he can't act as Thrust for shit.

>when he spark came through, he should have acted like Rampage

Yeah it was clearly meant to pull from the cut episode considering the memories showing up, its definitely better to just consider the cut episode canon in regards to Dinobot II.

Dinobot II very clearly states the fact that Rampages spark stopped effecting him before he decided to act as such.

>Both sides are mechanically removing sparks so as to put them in other bodies later.

Sparks in Beast Wars were very clearly mortal to an extreme extent, they weren't meant to be able to survive exposure for long periods of time; megatron could have mutated his sureespecially considering what he was doing.

But Blackarachnia sure as shit shouldn't have. Sparks outside of those two were usually in what was probably dedicated spark containers anyway.

>>16851736

Yeah the best excuse I can figure for the sparks surviving outside of the bodies is that the extractor does it in a way that somehow lets them survive that way. Megatron explicitly does mutate his, but not the rest.