/v/ - Video Games

>doom mods

>that makes the voxel and open-air sections of Solace Dreams take quite a hit to the framerate

We truly do live in the worst timeline.

>>16131528

I'm not sure what you're implying. But I will say that the dev for Solace Dreams recommends a 4GB GPU and a 4GHz CPU. A friend of mine ran it on his 3.6 GHz CPU, and said it was fine. It's all in the amount of cores, I guess.

>>16131860

Voxels aren't exactly the most efficient graphics style ever.

>>16131946

I guess that makes sense. Shame about the Solace Dreams dev focusing on GZDoom, then.

Is it just me, or does QZDoom leak memory?

Started Preacher today, it's pretty good, tough as nails too. You basically play as a cultist from Blood, and the sprites for the weapon replacements look really cool. I've only beaten the first map but so far it strikes a pretty good balance between actually good level design and slaughterwad. I usually hate slaughterwad faggotry (I hate Unloved for pulling that shit out of nowhere) but Preacher pulls off a large volume of enemies pretty well, largely because it's not just comprised of large, square rooms that are basically miniature nuts.wad. I'd say it's on par with Ancient Aliens in this regard.

>>16132085

>Quake 1.5 is a great modpack

Been meaning to give that a try, it has minor changes to levels on top of the redone weapons right? Does it make the boss fights less shit?

>>16132011

top kek

>>16132087

Yes.

>>16132011

>gets so mad and is such a primadonna he gets his title changed to "salty member" and stops posting therafter

Can't wait for graf to get ejected from the doom community, pull his sourceport as if the Doom scene will die without him, and get taken away by the waambulance never to be seen again.

>>16132099

Good to know, I'll have to try it, even though I think all the graphical shit that darkplaces adds is kinda pointless

>>16132011

What a fucking faggot. The sheer amount of autism on display is staggering.

>>16132128

This repugnant form of autism is what happens when garden variety autism is not tempered by STEM classes in school, and is allowed to metastasize with identity politics, egoism, and other bullshit.

I wanna play some Doom and wads and shit, do I just go for Chocolate Doom and hope for the best or would I need to go for different sourceports if I want all the wads?

>>16132079

>Cultist voicelines

>but Caleb's maniacal laughs

Interesting.

Play simon's destiny.

>>16132210

GZDooM, in spite of the faggotry behind it, is just "drag WADs onto gzdoom.exe, done". Unless a project calls for a specific source port, GZD should work fine. That said, even though I read about Aliens DooM in PC Gamer a billion years ago, the only conversion I've played is Contra DooM.

>>16132134

broski YES, you gotta have an outlet, might as well make it a good one

>>16132281

>on my work Mac

Just gas his and his whole family.

Oh and for comparison, the co-developer that maintains the vintage build takes 10 times that to build from scratch. That could explain why he's holding it up.

>>16132294

You generally don't get a say in a workplace unless you're the I.T. guy.

>>16132011

I didn't know this, it's fantastic. Gonna try lilith.pk3 for sure, now.

These power users hunting down anyone who gets remotely any success, like Sargeant Mk.IV, are the cancer to the modding community.

>>16132315

The Doom modding community has been cancer for a long time now. It's all primadonnas throwing tantrums, trannies, people that masturbate to trannies, leftists and liberals.

It's a miracle anything gets done, likely because most of the people doing good shit just mod and don't engage with the subhumans infesting the forums.

>>16132315

Note that you must run this with a particular version of ZDoom. It's actually a mod that more or less hacks the game to do things it shouldn't, and so it's dependent on certain code being as it is.

>>16132318

Fun story by the way. A certain well known Doom modder supposedly visited our Neptunia threads, and expressed at least interest in making a mod inspired from it.

>>16131860

That's pretty fucked up, considering PrBoom+ runs perfectly on my little ARM board (dual Cortex-A7 @ 1 GHz with 2 GB RAM). And that's without any GPU drivers, just a simple framebuffer.

Anyway that's basically all I need as far as Doom ports go.

>>16131514

>he can't even play fuckin doom

just kill yourself

>>16132358

Some WADs are just straight up unplayable on gzDOOM, like Sunlust, the last level goes single digit on me and I don't exactly have a toaster either.

>>16132281

This is also an issue of hardware growth as well. When Doom came out, all computers were expensive and had much more similar specs. But these days, you can find someone still running an Athlon machine with 4GB RAM alongside a guy with a $1500 monster of a PC.

So now developers can pick and choose what hardware levels can play their games. Which leads to weird attitudes where people who can't even spell "good coding practices" are telling you that you don't deserve to play their spaghetti mess.

My negros, is there any reason to migrate from ZDoom if I don't play mods?

>>16133204

Quality of life improvements, I suppose. Much easier to snipe annoying enemies if they're not being rendered at sub-pixel levels.

>>16133085

Why would I go through all that trouble just for your approval?

>>16133085

>the dos or 95 version

just use chocolate doom you posturing retard

>>16132877

>doom with a crosshair

What are you, casual?

>>16133731

This is always the dumbest thing ever. No one benefits from an upgrade to Vulkan. Graphics cards that support Vulkan don't have performance problems with GZDoom, it's pure retardation. Graf must think he's working on a AAA game engine and not a doom sourceport.

>>16133731

>2017

Has he said anything retarded lately though?

>>16133975

Aside from 3.7 being a giant shitshow? Idk.

>>16132011

>>16134039

GzDoom has been total shit ever since 3.x (especially the sound, because of some open source licensing autism), I only use 3.x when a mod absolutely requires it.

>>16132011

>Location: Germany

Well that explains a lot.

>>16133772

>rachael

Did anyone ever find out his real name? He's been a tranny for so long that even the wayback machine trick doesn't work.

>>16134221

I don't find the sounds bad on it's own, it's more that mods made for Zandronum never sound right on GZDoom now. The quality and everything is fine for me. I use 3.2.5 for most stuff since almost everything that isn't a zand mod needs ZS these days.

>>16134258

>I don't find the sounds bad on it's own, it's more that mods made for Zandronum never sound right on GZDoom now.

That's because the sound backend changed from 2.x to 3.x. It was an unnecessary change made solely because of GPL licensing autism, like I said.

I suppose you could get used to it, and might not even notice anything wrong if you never used 2.x or tried 3.x after a very long time without playing anything on Doom engine.

But to me the difference was clear as night and day, and not even on specific mods. Just try classic Doom and Doom 2 on, say, 2.2.x and then 3.x. Messing with advanced sound settings such as midi device and opl emu doesn't really improve things.

>>16134424

Actually, nevermind the part about OpenGL, I forgot that PrBoom+ also has an OpenGL mode.

>>16134762

That's just the genre it's classified under. Anyone that's made a map knows it's not, but whatever.

>>16134751

>Hired Guns

Excellent taste, anon.

>>16133784

Turbospergs are the only people interested in Doom enough to actually put in the effort to make source ports, Megaspergs the only people interested in Doom enough to actually make mods for it, and regular Spergs the only people interested in Doom enough to make custom maps for it.

>>16136310

No that's a really old mod. Chicken Doom. Besides there's already >>16134021 which is all about shooting those dopey-looking chickens.

>>16133784

>pozzed beyond repar

And we never got a Wolfenstein mod where you play as a German soldier gunning down the ZOG in an effort to fix the timeline.

I had hopes that the parody NuWolfenstein would inspire someone to make a proper game out of it, but the modders would rather mod their gay shit in and sperg at each other.

>>16132459

RIP you magnificent bastard. That said, has anyone made sense of his gobbledygook coding yet?

>>16132226

>>16132241

>>16132281

I'm liking this, I'm liking this a lot. Although I cannot see myself playing anything further than Doom 2. Heretic/Hexen/Dark Forces and wads might be out of the question.

Does Quake have as much a modding scene as Doom? Are Doom 3 or god help me and this thread nuDoom worth pirating?

>>16137818

Dark Forces isn't a Doom engine game

>>16137970

It isn't?

Whatever it is, I doubt it tops DF2

>>16138133

no for DF1 lucasarts used a homemade engine called jedi which was also used for outlaws, DF2 uses a different engine called sith

speaking of dark forces what happened to darkXL? is it still dead?

>>16137818

NuDoom, or DewM as I prefer to call it, is surprisingly not shit. The only annoying bit is being locked in boxes until you kill all of the demons, but you get weapon upgrade points for killing EVERYTHING, so I guess whatever. That said, I only paid $5 for the PS4 version when Redbox was dumping old games on the cheap. My ISP is like K9s when it comes to detecting large pirate downloads, and I'd rather not deal with compromised motherboards, so I leave my PC stuck pretty firmly in 2009.

>>16140128

It would've been fine if they just had more demons and cut the fatality bullshit out.

>>16140285

At least it's more fun than DooM 3 was. I hate the shit out of Bethesda, but credit where credit is doom.

>>16140389

No reason to hate it for being associated with Beth since Beth is only publishing it, not developing it.

>>16141588

>Kurashiki

>Wanting to fuck Doomguy and the Barons

Don't twist the wantopus' intentions.

She just wants to make the doominati go insane when they stream and she just moans outta nowhere.

>>16132011

Wow, this is recent too. now what happens I wonder, maybe someone more talented at coding should man the helm.

>>16133731

How about making it more fucking optimized for other people than your faggot ass, just because it's not a problem for you it isn't the same for everyone else. I shouldn't need a rig that runs battlefield v with rtx cancer on fucking ultra for fucking doom, dumb fucking nigger

Anybody mess with this yet https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1934298? Literally just Doom 64: Retribution modified to work properly in zandronum for coop purposes instead of gormless zealot doom.

>>16133085

>Doom95

>can't play MIDI only MUS

>The sound effects are played back at a slightly lower pitch than in regular Doom played under DOS

>Less of the player's weapon is shown on screen when compared to the MS-DOS version

>The screen is slightly stretched, horizontally

>rendering of the invisibility effect looks like hot garbage

>can't even use the mouse unless you're running windows9x

>numerous other unique bugs and compatibility issues

wew indeed

>>16138401

>what happened to darkXL? is it still dead?

as a doornail

So can we at least get a tally for what source port to use? I'd give my specs, but, y'know how it is about data collection.

What's the most fun Doom wad?

>>16143592

DOOM.wad

>>16134424

>>16134657

Thanks anon, I missed your posts last time I was in this thread. I'm gonna try Crispy and see how it goes.

>>16143592

I'm having fun with No End in Sight

>>16143700

I myst getting a chance to play this game

>>16144617

The Quirky Domain. It's a level that abuses portals to have the maps violate Euclidean geometry, and it's a real blast to try and find your way through. An older equivalent that does similar things but without the luxury of true portals, Impossible: A New Reality. Both maps are fairly long so save often.

>>16143666

Give me a rough guide of what mods I should be able to play on PrBoom+ and what would definitely need (G)ZDoom.

>>16144879

I don't know sorry. That's why I mentioned it because someone here will know. Also don't know what the latest Doom infographic is but there is an issue of stale ones that keep circulating.

>>16144843

>Also someone needs to post that anon's Doom video

This one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ietb4JwaaXA

>>16144889

This is the most updated one I've seen.

>>16144895

That's the one.

>>16144902

I'll take your word.[/deusex]

I've started following this youtuber for .wad recommendations

>>16150003

>Icarus "Hideous Destructor is too hard" Lives

>Icarus "Won't play it unless it can load ketchup" Lives

Lmao

>>16150233

Beat Plutonia on UV before moving on to other wads.

>>16150233

Nearly any youtuber who plays Doom is better than Icarus "IFDA and call it a day" Lives. None of them are better than forming your own opinions. You'd be better off just googling names of wads and watching gameplay than taking any youtuber's opinion seriously.

>>16150265

Plutonia is fucking lazy garbage. "LOL let's make almost every linedef and switch open up a chaingunner or archvile trap!"

It gets really fucking old, really fucking fast. It's not hard, it's a chore and a waste of ammo.

>>16150279

>>16150265

Plutonia isn't very good. It's just talked about because it's a meme IWAD due to Revenants.

>>16150279

>>16150321

I agree but it's a solid benchmark for wad difficulty.

>>16150359

Alright well keep being a pleb and letting literal retards do your thinking for you then.

>>16150359

Faggot that's what the cacowards are for. You can get up to scratch in under an hour.

>>16150410

Fuck off Graf, don't you have a useless Vulkan implementation to be making?

>>16150342

Only shitty difficulty. It's the one Chaingunner trap in Doom 2 MAP09 turned up to 12 and repeated ad nauseam, plus Revenant hordes and sucky Arch-Vile traps. It's not good design. Why a sequel was deemed necessary, I cannot say.

>>16150367

He's trash when it comes to playing games but he's also chill and you get a much better impression of a mod seeing it being played. He's also decent when it comes to variety in what he shows off so for just discovering new mods he's fine.

Is it normal to get sick of doom by episode 3? There were plenty of levels I didn't enjoy and I ended up just blindly zerging through E3M7 and M8 because I got sick of it, and I didn't even give Episode 4 a shot. Gave Doom2 a shot, dropped it after E1M2. Surprisingly I'm digging Heretic a lot, that music is a big part of it.

>>16156149

You're probably not supposed to charge through DooM in one sitting. I played an episode every other day, but I haven't played DooM 2 since like three months after it came out.

>>16156461

I feel you, but I was already playing one episode per two days. Something about some E3 maps really made me get sick of it.

>>16157428

I don't disagree. It gets worse with E4, TNT, and Plutonia. Thank fuck for community megawads with some sense of design, and fun. Still, no shortage of faggots making stupid meme maps.

No Total Chaos?

>sullying doom with metroid

>>16162180

Seems a bit heavy. Good thing there is a retro mode.

>>16156149

I usually just zone out when a map designer forces me to go switch/key hunting all over the map, and the map is this fuckhuge, demented maze and monument to his autism. I just want to shoot demons in the face, not spend minutes wandering empty corridors trying to figure out what that switch on the other side of the map did.

>>16162198

Very few actually do though because it turns out it's quite hard. What I enjoy about Doom mods is either that they're fun to play or creative, not the visuals, and most mods are pretty lazy in the latter category. Graf's off his rocker pushing so heavily for things most mods don't do, or if they can, will abuse for shitty eye candy.

>>16163524

That's part of why I like Heretic so far, and another thing is that some enemies in doom I felt slowed the pace down to a crawl. Spawning in like 7 or so cacodemons(Slough of Despair, or whatever that level that was shaped like a hand is) when I've only got pistol/shotgun is pure cancer since it takes quite a while to get through all of them and I just can't ignore them since they'll box me in later. I had the same problem with Blood, in which I found enemies like the Stone gargoyles, hellhounds or spider birthers to be as dangerous as regular cultists, except they take too much damage and follow you all over the place so I can't jump in like a mad man and fuck them up with as soon as possible. One of the worst blood levels is 4-5, where the game starts you off against two stone gargoyles, then two spider birthers, and ends on three spider birthers. What bullshit.

With heretic so far(episode 2 so I don't really doubt the enemies that slow down the pace to a crawl will come along soon) I find the enemies don't take too much damage to be done with and things get really intense with just enough tombs of power for me to start ripping and tearing.

>>16163586

I also dislike bullet-sponge enemies. I like it when they hit hard and die fast, and the same goes for the player, instead of the game being reduced to a battle of attrition.

Then again, I have less of a problem with enemy designs (though, fuck Pain Elementals) and more with maps that don't naturally guide the player from one section to the next. I feel the greatest weakness of old-school FPS was the hunt for switches and keys that tended to ruin the pace, especially if the map designer gets a little too enthusiastic.

And yes, most of the classics tend to get worse the further in you go. The first two or three episodes are usually fine, the maps aren't that big, they're tightly designed and flow well, but the further in you go the worse shit gets. I still vividly remember how godawful the later maps in Doom 2 got. Far, far too large for their own good and a bitch to navigate, forcing players to spend more time trying to puzzle out what the switch they pressed did than actually fighting enemies, and God help you if they decided to add platforming into the mix.

>>16163619

I'm guessing Hexen is the doom2 to Heretic?

>>16163625

I think so, but there is both a Hexen and Heretic 2- not sure what's up with that.

>>16163625

Hexen's interesting. Its level flow is based on hubs where you traverse through the levels solving puzzles. Definitely worth a go.

>>16163638

Heretic 2 and Hexen 2 do this too. Hexen 2 is based on the Quake engine but even more insane for speedrunning. Expect some obtuse puzzles in Thysis (Egypt-based hub) and don't feel too bad if you need to resort to an FAQ. It's not a bad game and the expansion pack is solid. Heretic 2 is dramatically different from the original. Like Hexen it's based on hubs but is more linear, and also third-person with a heavier focus on story. Also worth looking into but sadly it's one of the odd Raven games without a source code release.

>>16140389

>>16140128

it has absolutely no multiplayer to speak of, and le snapmap is a butchery that is put to shame by an average terry wad.

and making every enemy in the game an ammo pinata just made them cut down on balancing ammo and health pickups throughout

>>16156149

don't even bother with Thy Flesh Consumed, and nobody can blame you for not completing the slogfest that is Inferno. Sure with tank controls it puts up a decent challenge but most of the time its just monster closets with dozens of cacos and souls and fuck that shit honestly

OP here, I have a Radeon RX 570 now, and I'm a faggot. Can run Solace Dreams just fine now. Can't get past voxel Iudex Gundyr though, so I'm a mega faggot.

>>16163871

Souls feel like a fuck you enemy that should go down in one or two shotgun shots but instead they don't and they're annoying. Honestly the only reason I don't outright hate them is using berserk punches to one shot them.

>>16137629

Did he release the source code?

Or did it die with him?

>>16163804

>Also worth looking into but sadly it's one of the odd Raven games without a source code release.

I just realized Heretic 2 is abandonware, that's a shame. I remember watching a video of it recently that made it look pretty good.

A question since I haven't finished episode 2 yet, does this enemy progression style remain? I really like how the enemies aren't bullet sponges and the higher tier enemies simply fuck you up faster than take longer to die. Even the iron liches die in a few shots compared to Barons/Gargoyles and offer some really dangerous attacks(tornados fucking with your view and control) and I'm digging this a lot. Is it the same for Hexen?

>>16179083

Heretic 2 still runs pretty good even on modern systems, with a few tweaks here and there. It's a really fun game too.

>>16179105

That's good to know, thanks.

Is E2M9 supposed to kick my ass so hard? I've been having some insane trouble with it.

>>16179083

>Heretic II

It's not abandonware in the actual sense of the word. But it is a shame it has no source port. There was initial attempt at reversing one since it's based on the Quake 2 engine, but that went nowhere. In any case I'd have liked it to feel more fluid like most third-person action games, but nevertheless it's an interesting direction to take the series in and has some cool things I like. Make sure to play the tutorial mission. Start on normal difficulty though, hard is pretty rough. Easy is for elementary school kids.

>Hexen

There's one big "fuck you" enemy and it's the Centaurs. If they're shielding they cannot be damaged. But for the most part you don't get damage sponges there either, except for maybe one of the boss enemies.

Also there are some neat mods based on the games. Wrath of Cronos and Heretical Doom come to mind. It's also pretty fun going through Hexen with High Noon Drifter if you want something different. Vanilla first though.

>>16179144

It's a pretty tough level. But oh boy. Think the difficulty spike between most Doom maps and E4M1/E4M2. That's Heretic's episode 4 and 5. The opening levels have the episode 2 boss monster for example.

Last time I jerk off heretic, I swear, but the music is still fantastic.

>>16184253

Thank you, I'll try both.

Oh two more monster recommendations: The mod Demon Counterstrike which spawns in items/monsters randomly but in waves, it's a simple but brilliant mod I always use to keep me going and on my toes. Also if really feeling ballsy, if you have Plutonia in faked co-op mode (start-up options -host 1 -warp 01 -skill 4) there's a lot more enemies, including ridiculously, a Spider Mastermind right in front of you at start. Even regular Plutonia is a bit nuts with enemies though.

>>16185233

So I don't get banned for blogposting/spam/"lurk moar", the full comment is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjiyoxqIbLU

>>16185233

>>16185234

what

>>16134762

Please tell us how DOOM isn't 3D.

>>16185588

Classic Doom uses flat 2D maps and runs an algorithm to render the walls and floors based on the data attached to each sector and line. Height is a property added to each sector, and vertical coordinates for the player and enemies are determined by similar properties. Later builds of the engine added support for simple polygonal objects, allowing things like swinging doors, but true 3D processing and rendering was only added after it went open source.

>>16185466

It's just the xenofaggot screaming at his pre-determined place in the universe; Don't pay me any mind, it's not like this isn't exactly how things are supposed to be.

>>16131930

They actually are, it's just that nobody bothered to refine them becuase 3D models with 2D textures were more detailed at the time. There was a turning point in the games industry in the mid to late 90s where graphics developers thought "Hmm, we could do 3D models with textures, or we could do voxels." There were a few notable games that used voxels but they had a more "untextured" look, something which is not a problem today. Likewise hardware has evolved to meet this standard and theoretically we would need a slightly different GPU card to handle voxels more efficiently.

>>16185588

Jesus Christ, are you the most entry-level normalfaggot ever? Seriously, this is "recommended video on YouTube" level of knowledge we are discussing here.

If you want to see how Doom is 2D without anyone having to explain it to you, just open up or look up a screenshot of Doom Builder or any other map editor.

>>16185588

I'd say read "Tricks of the Doom Gurus" but is this even archived or common knowledge nowadays?

>>16185683

It's more expedient to look up the article for the rendering engine on the Doom wiki if I recall right.

>>16185725

Most of the stuff you posted is common knowledge amongst Doom modders. The last page deals with using an editor which nobody uses anymore, so it is irrelevant. Modding Doom is pretty fucking easy and enjoyable nowadays.

>>16185761

Yeah right. Most modders work to GZDoom or similar, and I cannot find anyone scanning such old works to preserve them. This was made around 1995.

>>16185800

It's interesting from a historical perspective to be sure, but I highly doubt there will be anything in old publications that bring to light new information about Doom. The game is open source and the community has been picking it apart nonstop since that happened.

>>16185621

>Height is a property added to each sector, and vertical coordinates for the player and enemies are determined by similar properties.

So it's 3D?

>>16185654

>>16185683

>>16185714

DOOM is and has always been a 3D game. It has supported heights and everything exists within 3D space. The fact that Cacodemons exist is proof that the game is 3D.

>>16131514

I'm looking for something similar to pirate doom and golden souls. I guess just mods that are light in tone, have novel level ideas and are still doom. Any suggestions?

>>16185899

>The fact that Cacodemons exist is proof that the game is 3D.

The fact that you cannot run under or over a Cacodemon in vanilla Doom is proof that the game is not 3D, and that you are a blithering moron.

>>16185899

Look, I don't want to sound condescending but you're making it difficult with your misplaced arrogance. You are talking to a programmer who is writing a game with a raycasting engine (what DOOM uses). There are no 3D coordinates. There is no 3D space. Doom can be played entirely using the automap from top-down if only it showed where the enemies were. What you are seeing is the illusion of 3D space, made possible by a bunch of hacks and jury-rigging. If the Doom engine were a person, it would ask, "What the fuck is a Z coordinate? I only know about map sector 'heights,' whatever the fuck that is. Why do you care about those?"

To be fair, flying monsters are the most "3D" thing about Doom but they are still subject to the same hacks as the player. Monsters have infinite height because they have no height. You can group a bunch of pinkies or any other monster at the bottom of a cliff, shoot a rocket straight forward and it will explode in mid air and damage the pinkies. The illusion of depth in Doom maps is entirely a perspective trick, just like on a painting. The camera says "Alright, there's a texture on this wall and it's X units away horizontally. That means I should draw it as Y units tall to make it look like it's far away." In a real 3D game, the camera says "This thing is X units wide, Y units long and Z units high, so based on the angle I'm facing and the angle the thing is facing, I need to draw this." Distance doesn't even factor into it.

>>16186056

Couldn't have summed it up better myself. Shit game, needs more voxels.

>>16132241

>I recommend downloading ZDL to make everything extremely easy to use if you have multiple sourceports, WADs and IWADs.

Rocket Launcher PW is nice too.

https://github.com/paynworth/RocketLauncher2

>>16186022

No, that's a (poor) design choice. The fact that you can shoot under a cacodemon proves it isn't 3D.

>>16186032

Doom has a Z-coordinate. Have you looked at the source code? How do you think an explosion to the bottom of a Cacodemon pushes it upwards? How do you think a player can fall gently off a cliff rather than abruptly running off it and hitting the bottom instantly?

>Monsters have infinite height because they have no height. You can group a bunch of pinkies or any other monster at the bottom of a cliff, shoot a rocket straight forward and it will explode in mid air and damage the pinkies.

No it doesn't.

>>16186056

>if I can't understand it then it's shit

go back to fartnite kiddo

>>16186087

Speaking of fortnite…

DUBG - Doom Battle Royale

https://www.moddb.com/mods/dubg-doom-battle-royale

>>16186082

And just to clarify

>that's a (poor) design choice

It was a fine choice at a time. Carmack was creating one of the first 3D FPS engines with a lot of new features. What they accomplished was a monumental achievement for such a small team. Not wanting to deal with collision (something that even modern multi-million dollar games manage to still fuck up) is totally understandable. Rather than worry about AI problems, gameplay bugs, syncronization bugs in multiplayer, performance issues, etc for something that wasn't terribly important, they just optimized it out as "treat monsters as infinite height for certain collision detections". The fact that they chose to ignore the Z-axis in certain calculations does not change the fact that there is in fact a Z-axis.

>>16186090

I'm holding out for Oregon Trail BR, myself

>>16186082

>>16186097

Alright, so now you're just straight-up lying. What exactly did you hope to accomplish by entering a thread filled with Doom fanatics and spouting off a bunch of shit everyone knows isn't true? Are you baiting? If so, I urge you to reconsider your technique. You don't need to expend this much effort to bait in this board.

>>16186103

Are you saying you can't shoot over or under a monster in doom?

>>16186132

That is indeed how Doom works and everyone here knows it, so yes, that is what I'm saying. Would you care to explain how you were able to break the game's forced "vertical" autoaim so that you could shoot over a monster?

>>16186154

I'm at work, so you'll either have to post a video or wait until I can confirm at home, because I don't believe you.

>>16186154

>>16186140

Also

https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Autoaim

>Since you can't look up or down in Doom or Doom II, the system compensates for you. Accuracy is not affected by the differences in the Z-axis co-ordinates of the player and target. However, vertical autoaim will only work against targets that are within a certain distance from the player; if the target is too far away, vertical autoaim will not take effect.

So:

>Z coordinates exist

>the game will deliberately not autoaim on far away targets causing you to never hit them

So obviously Z-coordinates and 3D space must exist. If your "weapons automatically hit anything regardless of height" hypothesis was true, how could vertical auto aim be turned off?

>>16186162

Monsters have infinite height in Doom. This is an irrefutable fact. I mentioned the pinky example as just that, an example. You are putting words in my mouth, but fortunately for you I am interested to get to the bottom of this any way.

>a wiki used the phrase "Z coordinate," therefore 3D

Come on, now.

>>16186162

>how could vertical auto aim be turned off?

show us the toggle in vanilla Doom's options menu to turn off autoaim

modern source ports allow for things like full mouselook, disabling autoaim, hell a port like 3DGE even allows for room-over-room, something impossible to do in the vanilla engine.

source port=/=Doom

>>16186159

Go ahead and test yourself. I'm using Chocolate DOOM which is demo-compatible with the original 1.9 DOOM (supposedly, I don't use it normally).

If you want videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLRvPJppwsM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GJ-gzna_dE

Pick your poison between neckbeard and Brutal Doom gameplay.

>>16186169

As the wiki says, vertical autoaim is turned off if the target is too far away. This is automatic in all versions of doom.

>>16186165

They have infinite height for collision with other monsters. Not for collision with things like bullets or rockets (though rocket explosions specifically still ignore height, which is used for Icon of Sin. They still need to impact a wall or something else at the right Z-height in order to damage monsters above or below them though).

The reason being how would you deal with a situation where the player runs into an elevator shaft and ends up standing on top of monsters? The player would be stuck unable to shoot directly down. There's dozens of issues like this that would be quickly problematic, you can see why id went the easy way out of making monsters not able to stand on top of each other.

>>16186187

So you're totally fine and dandy with "Oh yeah obviously monsters have infinite collision height, otherwise the player wouldn't be able to aim down at them. Duh." but you've never asked yourself "Wait, why can't I aim down?" Could it possibly be because the game isn't 3D, that floors and ceilings are literal holes in the map that the camera "patches in" textures to, and that skewing the camera up and down would completely ruin that illusion?

>>16186211

No, it's because they optimized the renderer in such a way that it could render things much faster (necessary for people playing on a 386) but only looked good when looking at a flat plane.

The fact that things have a z-coordinate makes it 3D. This is what the definition of 3D is, 3-dimensional. Objects exist and interact with each other in 3 dimensions. Collision boxes that don't correspond to the visual representation of an enemy don't change any of this. To a certain extent every game ever has had collision boxes that don't directly correspond to the models.

>>16186238

that the projectiles have a z-axis, does not make the entire game 3D. That's like saying that Ocarina of Time has menus that are flat 2D, therefore the entire game is 2D.

>>16186238

>The fact that things have a Z-coordinate makes it 3D

The fact that they have no Z-dimension means they aren't. It doesn't matter if you perceive a game as 3D thanks to the tricks it employs, even if those tricks are good. When the computer reads the code and runs the game, it has no mathematical concept of a 3rd dimension within the game system. Whether you wish to believe that or not is up to you, but it is most obvious in the rendering engine and map definitions.

>>16186253

>>16186255

The projectiles and the monsters have a z-dimension, otherwise the game wouldn't know if the projectile passed under, over, or hit a monster. Same for terrain, it has a z-dimension.

https://github.com/id-Software/DOOM/blob/master/linuxdoom-1.10/p_mobj.h

// Map Object definition.

typedef struct mobj_s

{

// List: thinker links.

thinker_t thinker;

// Info for drawing: position.

fixed_t x;

fixed_t y;

fixed_t z;

// More list: links in sector (if needed)

struct mobj_s* snext;

struct mobj_s* sprev;

//More drawing info: to determine current sprite.

angle_t angle; // orientation

spritenum_t sprite; // used to find patch_t and flip value

int frame; // might be ORed with FF_FULLBRIGHT

// Interaction info, by BLOCKMAP.

// Links in blocks (if needed).

struct mobj_s* bnext;

struct mobj_s* bprev;

struct subsector_s* subsector;

// The closest interval over all contacted Sectors.

fixed_t floorz;

fixed_t ceilingz;

// For movement checking.

fixed_t radius;

fixed_t height;

// Momentums, used to update position.

fixed_t momx;

fixed_t momy;

fixed_t momz;

So, objects have both a z-position and a height. Problem?

>>16186275

>Problem?

Not at all, because your lack of understanding of the subject matter is blatant and getting you nowhere. We are already retreading old ground. But keep fighting that good fight, I guess.

>>16186291

So, to recap. I've proven

>you can shoot over and under monsters

>auto aim can be on or off

>there is literally a z-coordinate for objects right next to the x and y coordinate.

>objects have a height

Yet you still don't think it's 3D because some vague reason of being able to look up and down mattering?

>>16186295

And again, you're ignorance and arrogance is stifling. I've been over this a few times already. It does not fucking matter because there is no 3D space. It is the difference between a Cartesian coordinate system with 3 dimensions and a 2D game board with miniatures that has those little plastic stands which make them look like they are flying. I've tried explaining it an out fifty different ways, but you insist a tomato is an apple because it is red and round.

>>16184456

>Preferably with lots of monsters and/or overpowered weapons.

Clusterfuck, definitely Clusterfuck.

>>16186303

Adorable. Do you have a pull string with catchphrases too?

>>16186303

oh shit, Wolfenstein 3D was 3D this whole time and I never realized! I mean it says it right there!

>>16186301

>Cartesian coordinate system with 3 dimensions

> // Info for drawing: position.

> fixed_t x;

> fixed_t y;

> fixed_t z;

It's literally right there in the code. It's uses a coordinate system with 3 dimensions. You can be any at any z-coordinate between -32768 and +32768 (I believe its an integer).

>>16186315

I don't know why you think repeating the same information is going to get you anywhere.

Here's a fun one. If Doom is 3D, then why can't rooms exist above other rooms?

>>16186322

Hang on, let me write up a .cpp file that contains a class with 3 integer fields. I just made a 3D game guys! My college degree is finally paying off!

>>16186322

Maybe you don't understand how this works. 3D is defined by having a 3-coordinate system. DOOM has that, and enemies and objects can exist at different heights. This is the definition of the word. Having a restriction on how the world can be made does not make it not 3D.

Is Quake not a 3D game unless it has a map with a room atop another room?

>>16186342

>Having a restriction on how the world can be made does not make it not 3D.

Well, when that restriction is "Sorry champ, I don't know how you can exist in a space above something else," yeah it does.

>Is Quake not a 3D game unless it has a map with a room atop another room?

Wow. You're finally getting it. I was beginning to think you were a lost cause, but you might finally wrap your brain around this yet.

>>16186352

I can make a Quake map without rooms over another room. Is that now not 3D?

>>16186361

I know you're being a disingenuous little shitheel with that question, but I'll make you a deal. As soon as you make a Doom map with a room on top of another room, you can call that game a 3D game. Deal?

>>16186368

No, because that's not required for a game to be 3D. Please tell me what you think 3D means if not 3-dimensional?

BTW, Hexen runs on the DOOM engine and allows both full player flight, proper z-collision on everything and looking up and down.

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Free_look

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Z-clipping

https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Wings_of_Wrath

>>16186372

>It's not required for a game to be able to comprehend a room existing above another room for it to be 3D

Did you even read your own post before you hit reply? I think I was wrong, you're hopeless.

>>16186375

Yes, and the Build engine creates the illusion of room over room with teleportation. What is your point?

>>16186380

No, it isn't. Are you an idiot? Do you not understand that a room above another room is a potential thing for 3D, but not required to be 3D?

No one said DOOM was fully able to represent any form of 3D space. Every engine has limitations, even if only limitations to how big a level can be. This does not make DOOM not a 3D engine. A 2D engine has characters interacting on a 2D plane, a 3D engine has characters interacting on a 3D space.

Are flight sims that don't allow for complex interior geometry not 3D games? Old games like X-Wing are clearly 3D games even as they are effectively just a bunch of spherical hitboxes in empty space. The fact that the engine doesn't support fully detailed 3D geometry doesn't mean the engines aren't 3D.

>>16186381

Build Engine is also 3D

>>16186395

>Build Engine is also 3D

also Pilotwings for the SNES is very clearly taking place in 3 dimensions

>>16186090

I'm not into fads, so to me mods are merely what they do. I'd be interested in a battle royale doom mod, just as much as in a jrpg doom mod. Just try new things and see what happens.

Siding with or against consensus by default is a sign of normalfaggotry.

>>16186395

Alright, well, you can think that, but no one will agree with you, and I'm definitely not the first "idiot" who's going to tell you you're wrong. It's clear that you think you're right about this – why, I have absolutely no idea, because it seems clear from our discussion that not only are you not well-versed on this subject, you have never talked to anyone that is. Regardless, it is apparent I'm not going to convince you. So I'm going to leave you with this thought.

Think about what I said earlier, about there being no real 3D space in the game engine. About how everything which seems 3-dimensional is actually a carefully thought-out trick. Now think about what I said about map definitions, map editors, and there being no rooms over other rooms. Why is that? Is it possible that the game cannot generate a room over another room because it doesn't know how? Or does it sound more likely to you that the game engine is actually 3D, fundamentally, but the team at id placed this arbitrary restriction on their map design for no discernable reason?

>>16186380

>Myth: The Doom environment is actually >2-dimensional (a horizontal plane). A

>vertical dimension, or "Z dimension", is >represented by the game's graphics,

>but is an illusion. A vertical dimension is not a >real factor in game physics

>or game play.

>Truth: Doom is not 3-dimensional to the extent >that Quake and similar games

>are; The Doom world is far less complex, and >much more restrictive. However,

>this does not mean that Doom is a >2-dimensional game. There are objects and

>events, calculations and variables throughout >Doom that deal with 3 spacial

>dimensions.

>Some examples: Projectiles may pass >above/below monsters or players; A player

>can run across a gap or pit without picking up >items on the ground directly

>below; A tunnel or doorway that's just tall >enough for a Sergeant to pass

>through may be too low for a Cyberdemon to >pass through; A player standing a

>few paces back from the edge of a tall cliff may >remain unseen by monsters on

>the ground near the base of the cliff, but may be >visible to monsters further

>away from the base.

>The heights of objects and obstacles, >projectiles, monsters, players, windows,

>crushing ceilings, and so on, all have a real >effect on what can happen, and

>what you can do, in the Doom environment.

http://classicdoom.com/doommyth.htm#01

>>16186087

For a moment I had hoped Superdoom receive an update.

>>16186420

>I'm 12 and what is 2.5D

>>16186420

>Conflating colloquial definitions with industry terminology

The standard at the time and since forever is being able to render an unlimited number of objects, barred only by performance limitations, in any position absolutely in relation to one another. That is a true 3D simulation. The limitations discussed in your normalfag article are the same limitaitons that prevent it from being real 3D. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

>>16186441

*absolutely and in relation

>>16186428

2.5D is a made up name to distinguish something that doesn't have the full capabilities of representing 3D space yet is still 3D.

If I tell you to make a 3D engine, then I tell you to optimize it so that it runs 100% faster but you can't have a room on top of another, that's still a 3D engine. You can't take a 2D engine and just magically add in heights for terrain and objects and bullets along with movement and velocity and acceleration and elevators and vision checks and so on without literally adding a z-axis coordinate to track all of that.

>>16186454

>You can't take a 2D engine and just magically add in heights for terrain and objects and bullets along with movement and velocity and acceleration and elevators and vision checks and so on without literally adding a z-axis coordinate to track all of that.

That is literally what Doom is. Vision for monsters works the same way it does for the player, it tracks 2D verticies along the 2D game map until it finds a wall closing off an enclosed space and checks if the player exists in that space. It is literally a 2D algorithm.

>>16186503

https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Doom_rendering_engine

>It is not a true "3D" engine (as it is not possible to look up and down properly, and one sector cannot be placed above or beneath another), but is however a fairly elegant system which allows pseudo-3D rendering. When first published, Doom was revolutionary and almost unique in its ability to provide a fast texture-mapped 3D environment on contemporary hardware — late-model 386 and early 486 PCs, without specialised 3D graphics hardware, running at clock speeds of around 25-33MHz.

>>16186513

I did slightly more research and am less retarded now, but only by the tiniest amount.

>>16186516

Also a reminder to check ID's, I was a different dude from the one arguing vehemently that original Doom is 3D. I posted 1 thing that alleges it is actually 3D (it's not).

>>16186503

You really replied to all of my posts a second time because you are that anally annihilated about being wrong? I'm sorry, anon.

Look, you're not going to convince me of anything. I'm a professional programmer, I've modded Doom even when I was a kid and I've made games in my spare time. Again, it's clear you have a totally different definition of "3D" than I do. That's something I really can't convince myself to give a shit about. I have never, in all my years, see anyone advocate the position that a non-3D engine is 3D because subsystems of that engine are handled in 3D, from a logical perspective. I appreciate your passion but there's no need to act so arrogant when you are obviously out of your depth.

>>16186513

There's no definition of 3D requiring either of those things. In fact

>provide a fast texture-mapped 3D environment

That's all 3D is. Cutscenes in modern games don't let you look up or down during them, are they not 3D? Is a game that doesn't have rooms at all (like a space sim) not able to be 3D?

>>16186537

I am a professional programmer as well and unlike you who merely claims to know about DOOM I actually know about DOOM, as evidenced by how every single claim you've made about the game has been shown to be utterly wrong time and again. Your stupidity and inability to understand simple concepts like "what is a 3-dimensional space" does not make a game that represents a 3-dimensional space not 3D

>>16186544

>I am a professional programmer as well

I don't believe you, primarily because you had to reference wikis to prove your point and I was able to recite everything from memory.

>>16186572

I stated all my facts from memory and when you disbelieved them I added examples. Your recitations from memory were incorrect, why would they lend any weight to your argument?

>>16186665

How is anyone supposed to take anything you say seriously when you say things like "A 3D game does not need to be capable of rendering a room on top of another room?" How can you get so indignant when you say something so incredibly stupid on its face and pretend not to notice?

Let's try approaching that from a different angle. What differentiates Quake and Doom? What term would you use to differentiate Doom's engine, which renders by creating strips of textures of varying height to create the illusion of distance, to Quake's engine, which renders everything based on absolute coordinates in a 3D coordinate space and then maps textures to those 3D coordinates?

How am I supposed to believe you're a professional programmer when you say the illusion of 3D is all 3D is? Is a picture of a cube the same as a cube?

>>16186544

>I am a professional programmer as well

Congratulations on learning to program your TI-83 but Doom still isn't 3D.

>Cutscenes in modern games don't let you look up or down during them, are they not 3D?

Quite possibly the dumbest thing you've said yet.

Play Quake or any modern FPS and note how you can move the mouse and fully look straight up or down, without the scenery warping unrealistically. Now load up Hexen and try to do the same thing. Note how your vertical field of view is blocked after a certain point, preventing you from looking straight up or down, also note how the floors and ceiling warp as you push the viewpoint to its vertical extremes.

That's the difference between a real 3D environment, and smoke-and-mirrors psuedo 3D.

>>16186665

>>16186692

Actually, I've come up with a better analogy. If I'm not mistaken, you're making the argument that Doom is 3D because the engine is "mostly" 3D, correct? It doesn't matter that the map is 2D and that monsters and map props have infinite height, blah blah blah.

So would you fuck a tranny? They're like 95% girls right? Just gotta deal with that pesky penis. They're basically the same as girls right?

>>16186733

>I don't like how the 3D is rendered, so it's not 3D

lolwut? So any game that you personally think is ugly is not 3D?

Games have rendering glitches and imperfections all the time. Rendering has absolutely nothing to do with whether DOOM is a 3D or 2D game. DOOM could have no visual display at all, if its tracking characters in memory in a 3D space and having them interact in a 3D space, it's still a 3D game.

>>16186750

How is the map 2D if it has height?

A question, is the Quake modding scene as vast as the doom one? If not, then why? I'm not terribly far into Quake because Heretic is fucking awesome and I really want to give Hexen a shot after it but the engine would allow for all sorts of neat advancements over the doom engine. It's not a matter of saying Doom doesn't deserve those mods, it's a matter of me saying that if Doom modding is at this level then what level would Quake modding be at?

>>16186810

For the same reason that you can take a sheet of paper and write "This sheet of paper is ten feet tall." on it. Then you create a social contract with your buddies to pretend it's a 10 foot tall amazon anime girl. But to the universe and everyone outside of the system, it's still 2D.

>>16186803

The reason the game is "ugly" is because it is not rendering real 3D. Do you know what Y-shearing is?

>>16187056

Prepare for a game that is difficult to like with Hexen. I personally enjoy it, but there are parts that can be quite frustrating, mostly the key and switch hunting in the second episode. It is essentially "what if we made a nonlinear FPS using only switch and key hunting as the motivator for player progress?"

>>16187141

I'm fine with it as long as the combat is as good as Heretics, I love the intense fights that are now the norm in every minute of episode 3 maps.

As for switch hunting that never really felt like a problem since, at least with Doom up to episode 3 I guess, how are Plutonia and E4 bad? I haven't really bothered playing either if I'm being honest and Heretic there is some sort of odd yet logical flow to levels that somehow makes it incredibly hard to get lost. I can't explain it.

>>16185172

Cool. I'll check Maps of Chaos and Colourful Hell out.

>Most mods that port weapons from other games are also not balanced in respect to Doom monsters.

Yeah, I've been balancing that by using slaughterwads and monster mods or setting enemies to respawn.

Been playing Trailblazer recently. Shit gets pretty ridiculous when you combine it with stuff like Speed of Doom, monsters set to respawn.

>>16187161

>E4 and Plutonia

Mostly agreed to be shit. Plutonia is just a slog with tons of chaingunners and tough monsters like archviles placed in early levels in ways that make them more tedious than challenging.

Hexen does have some intense moments to be sure, but much of the game is spent running around the different levels and hubs trying to gather shit. Nothing respawns so a lot of that time is spent not fighting enemies. The secret levels are cool.

>>16187178

>I forgot to shit on Thy Anus Ruptured

Stupid fucking level design mostly, like the one which just has you gathering 3 keys so you can use them all on a single door. I dislike this because it adds backtracking for no reason. You could have laid the key rooms out in a line from the beginning to the exit and it would have accomplished the same thing.

>>16187056

Quake has had plenty of great mods since the very beginning, like the original Team Fortress and Quake 1.5 today. But I don't think as many people are making mods today since, as far as I know, it's always used the same coding language which is harder to learn than what Doom source ports have.

>>16187081

But the universe of DOOM recognizes floor height. That's why monsters below you can't see you if the floor obstructs them.

>>16187104

Are modern games with blurry full-screen filters not real 3D then? After all they aren't displaying the game world correctly and similarly look like shit. If not worse than DOOM.

>>16187209

It's C, whereas Doom can be modded with the very easy DECORATE script language if you use modern source ports.

>>16187293

Only the part of the engine which processes player and monster position recognizes that height. To the map engine and the renderer, it is equivalent to a piece of ground marked out in chalk with "Height = 10" written in the center.

>>16187301

>Only the part of the engine which processes player and monster position recognizes that height. To the map engine and the renderer, it is equivalent to a piece of ground marked out in chalk with "Height = 10" written in the center.

You mean like a piece of ground marked (5,20,10)? You realize every vertex in every game is marked with a "Height = x", right? The game just plays pretend and simulates a 3D world for your amusement based on these numbers.

The map engine obviously understands height since you can fall, just the top down view doesn't understand height. But its a top down map view, not the game. The renderer understands height, else how does it know not to render the monster behind a raised section of floor?

>>16187334

See, this is why I'm pretty sure you're not a real programmer.

>You realize every vertex in every game is marked with a "Height = x", right?

This is a blatant fabrication that you just pulled out of your ass.

>The game just plays pretend and simulates a 3D world for your amusement based on these numbers.

Yes, but if we were to go by your loose "it looks like 3D, so it must be 3D" definiton, then vector games from the 80s would be 3D, too. That's not a useful definition. There was a specific point in time where games transitioned from rendering an image which looked like 3D, to rendering a simulation based on an absolute and consistent system of 3D coordinates. Doom is not consistent in this regard; it uses a different system of abstraction when it comes to sector height and monster/projectile position. This is "true 3D," it was a holy grail of gaming until it was finally achieved commercially in the mid-90s. The engine allows you to effortlessly render objects and discrete spaces above or below one another, with no tricks, shortcuts or caveats; it is a complete system. I know you can tell the difference, and I know you're pretending to be obtuse. I don't know why.

>>16187368

Also, there is an extremely key point here, which shows you really don't understand Doom/raytracing on a fundamental level:

>But its a top down map view, not the game

Wrong. A thousand times wrong. You have it entirely backwards. The top down view IS the game map. Your FPS game screen is "just an FPS view." The "3D" view is extrapolated from a 2D system.

>>16187334

>>16187368

One more thing, with a courtesy sage.

>The renderer understands height, else how does it know not to render the monster behind a raised section of floor?

It does not understand height as you and I know it. It sees that a texture is a certain distance away on a 2D plane and has a height value. When it reads that height value it doesn't think, "Okay, I know exactly where to place and size this texture in 3D space," it says "I'm going to draw a shape on screen and scale it because the height value means I draw it bigger." It literally does not understand 3D position as you and I do.

>>16187293

>Are modern games with blurry full-screen filters not real 3D then? After all they aren't displaying the game world correctly and similarly look like shit.

Filters and shaders are post-processing which occurs after the fact of the base graphics being rendered. Whether it looks pleasing or shit is subjective but it is entirely removed from how the gamespace is being computed, which I'm sure you understand perfectly well you contrarian baitlord. If you've dabbled with emulating the PSOne for example then there is a good possibility you've experimented with filters to make the graphics look better. Adding a postprocess filter does not magically change a 3D game to 2D or vice versa. Do you also want to argue that Donkey Kong Country and Vectorman are true 3D games, because you can pull up a video of the character models being rendered and rotated in 3 dimensions on SGI workstations so therefore it must be real 3D? Actually you probably would.

>>16187481

I can 100% gaurentee you that he thinks Final Fight is a 3D game because you can move up and down on the street.

>>16187467

>It literally does not understand 3D position as you and I do.

By that metric no game does. Every 3D engine is just using a math transformation to place dots on a screen in the correct order.

>>16187481

It's almost like whether a game is 3D or not doesn't have to do with whether yyou like how it renders things.

>>16187485

The character moves within 3D space but the camera does not, it's fixed. DOOM is rendering 3D geometry while sidescrolling games render a flat background.

>>16187589

Do you really not understand the concept of a complete and consistent system? And have you ever met another person who believes a game which is partly 3D is 3D? You are a very special individual.

>By that metric no game does. Every 3D engine is just using a math transformation to place dots on a screen in the correct order

In true 3D games, the camera viewing space is a 3D shape called a frustum – a trapezoidal prism, basically. In raycasting games like Doom, the camera viewing space is mathematically represented by a triangle.

>>16187589

>>16187750

You know what, I'll take it a step further.

https://lodev.org/cgtutor/raycasting.html

This is perhaps the most prolific raycasting engine tutorial in existance. It's how I learned to write my own engine. If you read this article and still believe Doom is a 3D game, you're hopeless.

>>16187764

Also, I realize I have been using the terms raycasting and raytracing interchangeably, which was a dumb mistake on my part. Here's a link to my repo just to show I'm not full of shit.

https://gitgud.io/36poptarts/raycastinggame

>>16187750

>>16187764

>>16187788

DOOM doesn't use raycasting you idiot. How are you this incompetent yet still pretending to know shit about the game? DOOM uses BSP trees.

Even if DOOM did use raycasting, that would change nothing about whether the game is 3D. You could write a raycasting renderer for Quake if you wanted. Would Quake be 2D if its rendered used raycasting?

>people arguing with a redditor who read somewhere "the cool tru facts" that doom isnt 3d

Just stop arguing with redditors.

>>16187994

>a facsimile of 3D geometry extrapolated from map data wherein the actual playspace is a 2D plane.

If the "actual playspace" is a 2D plane how the hell do cacodemons work? How do stairs and elevators work? How is it that if a door is opening slowly there's a specific point at which you can move through it, roughly corresponding to a sort of "player height"?

>If the engine was really rendering a 3D space, what would prevent you from firing a rocket straight up at a cacodemon directly above you, or at the floor directly under your feet? The answer, again, is because it's not a real 3D space.

It's real 3D space, id just didn't want to let you look up or down. The concept of up and down still exist in the engine.

>>16188030

Doesn't matter if a game is pseudo-3d or "true 3d" if any part of it uses 3d co-ordinates its 3d.

>>16187978

Despite the engine limitations with the game making rooms over rooms impossible, everything within the game is fully capable of moving in full 3D if programmed to. Hell, even Duke Nukem 3D and some the earlier fully polygonal games have to use tricks to give the illusion of one room being over another- but they're still widely considered to be 3D.

>>16188030

You have to remember that any physics in the game are incredibly basic as well. It's limited to an object being pushed in a single direction, something that was common even in games half a decade later- with the major exception of grenades. Not a competent programmer though, so it's based only on my observations of games I've played.

>>16188030

So many pseudo-intellectuals think they know how 'doom isn't really 3d!' because it used 2d sprites for the enemies, and make a fucking idiot of themselves because they never played the game at length.

>>16188067

How the fuck do you jump over gaps then you moron?

>>16188067

>Why do you think that is?

Because the engine port is emulating Doom as faithfully as possible, GZDoom (and QZDoom to a lesser extent) is fully capable of 3D because of OpenGL. Indeed one guy did make a fully 3D doom game in GZDoom. The capabilities of ZDoom and it's two forks is beyond what the original Doom is capable of and therefore a terrible example to ever use.

Maybe you should study up on what Doom actually does instead of relying a source port that's far more capable then the original game.

>>16188187

meant for >>16187994

>>16188030

>>16188095

The Doom engine's wall rendering algorithm is designed to work with vertically oriented walls. With this constraint, the Z coordinate (depth) of the wall is constant across each column of pixels, so it can achieve perfect perspective correct wall texturing for cheap. If you could look up and down, walls would no longer be vertically oriented, and this algorithm wouldn't work, so they prevented you from doing that. As a result, the game ran fast (enough) on machines of the time, and really did render a perspective correct, accurate 3D view, just one with a number of restrictions to make it work.

Quake actually does something similar, but with arbitrary triangles. It renders triangles in columns a little like Doom, and iirc renders 8 pixels at a time using the same depth value for each when texture mapping. It was designed specifically to run on a Pentium, which had a floating point unit that ran simultaneously with the integer unit. This meant they could do the floating point perspective texture coordinate division "for free" while the integer unit did the texture mapping. I guess they timed the code and figured out that they could render 8 pixels in-between each perspective division with no discernible quality loss; any less and the texture mapping code would be stuck waiting for the division to finish, any more and the texture mapping code would be producing less accurate results than necessary.

Duke Nukem also did something similar to Doom, but instead of rendering columns, it could figure out arbitrary lines of constant depth across the surface of a polygon, and thus render sloped surfaces (and possibly look up and down, I don't remember) at a similarly low performance cost.

I gotta go so I'll be brief but in conclusion, I think it's more of a philosophical question than anything where you draw the line between "2.5D" and "real" 3D. There are so many vague ways you can say a particular engine is "faking it" or "real" that I don't see the point in angrily insisting it is one or the other.

>>16188187

Substitute Hexen with its Wings of Wrath and the closest rocket launcher analogue then. Why can't you 'rocket' jump? Maybe you should study up on what Doom actually does if that's your best attempt at a counter argument.

>For instance, while yes, you can walk under a projectile, you can't walk under (or over, for that matter) an enemy.

>There's no Z axis check on melee or switch/door use either - you can punch a demon, or throw a switch, on a ledge 50 feet above you.

>It's also impossible for the vanilla engine to have one room above another, so when you show that cube and ask what the difference between it is and the polygonal one is, the answer is, the polygonal one has a bottom side. The one in doom can't. It can't float above the ground. Unless it's hollow, it can only have a max of 5 sides. The sixth has to be connected the floor or ceiling of neighboring sector.

>Projectiles use sort of a virtual coordinate system to draw and perform hit detection. Note that projectiles are also sprites which are occluded by BSP surfaces, the same occlusion calculation being used to detect hits against walls. This explains why you can't shoot through raised platforms as you demonstrated.

>In all, I liken the Doom engine to something like the SNES Mode 7 on steroids. What you see on-screen is a complicated system of drawing skewed surfaces basically like sprites, giving all appearances of being a 3D environment, with many small tricks regarding sprite positioning and an internal 3D coordinate system informing features like projectile hit detection and clipping. The fact that rendering is performed using a basically separate dataset (BSP nodes) from the game state information, rather than a unified 3D model of both the game state and level as with successors like Quake, makes the Doom engine a "pseudo-3D" system in my mind.

>Basically, Doom is "3D" in the same way Mario Kart is "3D", it's just much more convincing. The fact that we are still debating this 23 years later is a testament to how well Doom simulated a 3D environment, and how much of an awesome technical feat it was at the time.

>>16188284

>Maybe you should study up on what Doom actually does if that's your best attempt at a counter argument.

>counter argument

That is not a counter argument to your main point, I am just annoyed that idiots like you look at ZDoom and think they can make any accurate analogies with it when the engine itself is capable of far more then what the original Doom is capable of. Even the 2D things ZDoom can do which Modders like to use frequently is beyond vanilla Doom's capabilities. It is not a valid comparison.

>>16188660

>performance sucking portal method

This shit is why idtech 4 needs to be the codebase for enhanced source ports. The difficulty of supporting the classic data formats and modding methods would be offset by the excellent per-sector portal efficiency and overall performance boost compared to GZ.

>>16188435

Case in point, I just discovered Lambda. It's Doom but with the Half-Life and Opposing Force weapons. The demo vid has the high-definition models from Opposing Force but it's presently only got the original ones. In any case it's a flawless re-creation.

>>16188742

Not sure I agree, because the majority of mods are sold on fun or creativity, not visuals. Great visuals are out of scope for the majority of modders, there's a reason so many "borrow" assets from other places. So again, I don't understand why Graf thinks catering to that is a good idea.

>>16188781

I don't care about the grafics nearly so much as the efficiency. Even basic maps and mods can choke in GZDoom on my toaster, but Doom 3/Prey/Quake 4 run perfectly smooth while being enormously more detailed and complex. The render code in id tech 4 is great and I think it'd be a perfect replacement for other enhanced source ports if the game logic could be written in.

>>16188435

I like how you completely missed earlier in the thread where I explicitly stated that source port=/=Doom, and you completely ignored where I said SOFTWARE RENDERER in the post you responded to so that you could screech incoherently about GZDoom and OpenGL. Not to mention your idiot ass has yet to even acknowledge whether the Hexen example is or is not a 'valid comparison'. You're out of your depth, son.

>>16188910

I don't know how feasable it would be to actually do, but there is a clean-up port iodoom3, like ioquake3 is to idtech3. If we're talking basis for a Doom source port I'd probably prefer that.

The bigger problem though is displacing GZDoom is next to impossible. Like game consoles and operating systems, it's all down to running what people want, and most mods need GZDoom. It's a struggle to attract porting of mods, let alone new ones. Even the author of Lithium backed down on porting to Eternity Engine after ranting about how wretched GZDoom is as a platform, which is also why mod compatibility is out of the question. The whole ZDoom lineage is riddled with mis-design and implementation bugs, and changing anything is liable to break mods. Imagine when array indexing order is backwards. ZScript did.

>>16188945

>>16188813

>>16188794

Chill out tough guy, and go and play some fun mods.

>>16189012

>backwards array indexing

You'd have to go out of your way to fuck up something like that.

>>16189032

In fairness to that one it was resolved fairly elegantly without breaking anything. But it's indicative of a deeper problem in development of features. They are not adequately tested. A similar stupid inherited from ZDoom is that scripting for map markers has their visibility toggle reversed. Nobody obviously used the feature to figure this out until recently, chiefly the devs.

>>16188910

I don't understand how or why GZDoom has vanilla doom or heretic chug on my toaster. Yeah it's a toaster, but still it's not like I'm playing a slaughter wad where 1000 or more enemies are being triggered at the same time.

I just found a really cool easter egg in Lambda. If you have the Gluon Gun equipped and are under the effects of both double and quad damage, it becomes a Proton Pack. That's a cute nod to the original weapon obviously being based on it, and even named "weapon_egon" internally. It also becomes fucking insanely overpowered. Tap-firing normally does 80 damage. In this state it does 800. Sustained fire is about 33% more efficient too.

>>16189175

There is more it has to account for given all of the complex scripting and stuff behind the scenes, but for the most part it's plain inefficient coding. And plenty of mods make the problem even worse. Again, refer to >>16132281 for why they might have such a bogus coding methodology.

>>16187835

Uh, yeah because raycasting and BSP trees are both methods of extrapolating a 3D image from a 2D map, by definition. I was hoping you'd pick up on that considering its at the top of the article but apparently not.

>>16188054

>>16187978

>sheeit nigga, i aint gonna be lernin n shiet, u think u smart r sumthin

I didn't know Doom was so popular with such niggerlike attitudes.

>>16189282

Amid Evil is easily my favorite retroclone shooter. I hope the dev goes on to make other shooters afterwards.

>Minotaurs are now regular enemies

>They take 20+ phoenix rod shots to take down and can oneshot you with the fire line attack

I take back all my dicksucking for Heretic. This blows ass.

It was great fun but I'm not going near E4 or E5.

Important question now, Preacher, Hexen, Heretical Doom or something else?

>>16193757

>>They take 20+ phoenix rod shots

Well there's your problem, maulotaurs are immune to splash damage, much like cyberdemons. You would be better off with the hellstaff, tomed phoenix rod, or tomed gauntlets, which allows you to out-heal their damage output.

>>16194021

Too late, already started Hexen. It's okay but I feel like the ranged enemies weren't thought out for the fighter class, at least on the highest skill. It's pretty gorgeous though.

>>16185184

German autism

>>16193757

I warned you. But that said you aren't obligated to kill everything just because it's there, and I recall it being at least possible to 100% those levels with even vanilla weapons.

>>16194395

When ranged enemies really start being a problem he will have a solution. He's probably the best class too to be honest since his melee devastates most other melee enemies, and flechettes help a lot with ranged enemies. The other two classes are still viable though.

For Hexen 2, the expansion is probably better than the base game and you can start with either. You can viably use all classes too but I'd recommend either Crusader or Paladin (or with the expansion, Demoness). Necromancer suffers from high mana consumption and mediocre ultimate weapon, while Assassin doesn't fit into the gameplay and has weak first two weapons. God-tier ultimate weapon though.

>>16193887

It's mostly OK on high-end PCs. That's the problem though, it shouldn't need that.

>>16197049

>Demoness

Oh yes.

>Ranged enemies

I just finished Hub 1, the secret level that I wasn't aware was a secret level was absurdly fun and intense, although some parts of Hub 1(that part where you spawn in with three wendigos against you, and then the walls drop and there are 5 others) was pure bullshit that required you to have stockpiled quartz flasks(thank god I did) and spam healing while bumrushing those wendigos. Otherwise I really like the game and it's probably the best looking one out of the Doom, 2, Heretic, Strife games I had played.

Goodness. Mix Demon Counterstrike and Lambda, and play Maps of Chaos. It's intense. MoC is basically slaughtermap versions of the original Doom 2 levels. But it's amplified by surprise monster closets in MoC, random monsters/items spawning wherever, that most of the basic Half-Life weapons need to reload, and that the RPG can only be used sparingly. The tripmines are pretty fun to use though.

>>16197512

>pure bullshit

YUP. They are even more total bullshit if playing on max difficulty (fast monsters, no respawn thank god) but thankfully that's their only real encounter.

>the secret level

Make sure you find the secret map on hub 2 as well, and there will be a secret level in hub 4 you can visit. Otherwise it's barred.

>Oh yes.

She's powerful but stem your excitement a little because the Hexen 2 classes are similar in nature to Hexen ones. 4 weapons, last is in two pieces. The only addition is a basic stats system where you auto level up on killing enemies, and gradually do a bit more damage and gain max HP/mana and such. Also two class-specific abilities open up at level 3 and 6 respectively. The Crusader ones are particularly godly. If you're into speedrun stuff, he's also got the best movement tech.

>>16197049

Hexen was fucking great. Thank you. Is the expac worth playing or should I just skip to Quake?

I want to play nu-Doom just because it's something different, but every time I see it's 100 niggerbytes and I immediately lose interest.

What is wrong with brutal doom and it's creator?

>>16207963

I haven't actually played Deathkings sorry. It's been in my to-do list for a while. You'll be fine going to Quake though, and checking it out later.

>>16211460

What are your specs, and are you using the vintage build. Because I take a pretty low view of people who can't run it when even my dogshit laptop still somehow manages.

>>16214483

Community drama but fuck that noise. All you need to know is that Brütal Doom is not actually a bad mod in terms of playing it, but it's sub-pajeet in terms of programming, and its popularity and fanbase is rabid. Worse, people expect it to work with everything else, to the extent some mods have anti-BD checks.

>>16214483

His mod is really popular. Also he wrote the word "nigger" in a comment once, pissing off the SJeWs.

>>16132079

Could use the actual blood weapon set to be honest.

Angst seems like it's got a pretty nice aesthetic to it.

https://mikestoybox.net/2019/01/13/angst/

>>16214483

>>16214518

>>16214521

If you want some of the features of brutaldoom without the performance issues and more mod compatibility, go for BDLite

http://teamouse.net/games/doom/bdlite/index.php

>>16214587

I've been looking at that, but sadly, it doesn't have the magic that actual Brütal Doom does, not now at least. Specifically, it feels like a run-of-the-mill weapon mod. I am watching it though, and I am not someone who is invested in Brütal Doom, I primarily play more silly mods.

AMC TC Episode 3 is out.

>>16215044

Ignoring GWs recently silliness. This new chaos stuff they are showing has a strong doom vibe.

>>16214518

>What are your specs

Intel HD 4000, core I5 3210m, 8gb RAM, 64 bit system

>vintage build

Tried it but didn't work either

Error is:

>Code: C0000005 (Access Violation - tried to write address 00000040)

Whats the best way to experience Doom64? Don't say "On an N64 hooked up to a CRT TV."

>>16226846

HD 4000 should be more than adequate. Most of the complaints of that particular error I've seen through searching though seem related to bad mods, or bad drivers, and Microsoft are known to gimp the ones they provide as far as OpenGL because what do you expect when they want to push DirectX? Embrace Extend Extinguish hasn't died out, and Intel directly may provide ones that actually work.

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/product/81499/Intel-HD-Graphics-4000

Failing that, check it's not an issue in the latest dev build, and if it is, try reporting it on the forum. Graf can be an idiot but I don't believe he's actively malicious, and the community in general do actually try to fix things. Guest posting is an option but otherwise just make a throwaway. Make sure to be as informative as you can though. At a minimum, the crash report, your operating system and version, your GPU and driver version, and whatever else you think will help.

>>16226877

doom64ex

>>16214524

Quite frankly outside of the shotgun and dynamite I hated the blood weaponset. Something like the tesla gnu, voodoo doll and spraycan are pretty much situational for various weapons. The napalm lawnchair is good. Tommy gun is a solid meh. Life Leech sucked ass. I can't even remember if I'm forgetting a weapon or not.

>>16226992

>tommy gun

>meh

That's a crime. They're on par with bolt-action rifles as favorite video game weapons. Not enough Doom mods have them either, I think only Moon Man Doom has a BAR of any sort.

>>16234470

It's got great animation but at the same time you're never really that far away from cultists to require using it over the dynamite/napalm, and as far as I remember it wasn't really that good against bloater butchers/gargoyles/hellhounds.

>>16234470

> I think only Moon Man Doom has a BAR of any sort.

You mean the FG-42? Yeah I added it in, even though strictly speaking the Wehrmacht was equipped with the MG-34/42 not the FG-42 at all, those were reserved for the Fallschirmjäger only, but I didn't really feel like it to make another class just for a single weapon. If anything I really would love to have a loadout system instead which depending on your class gives your more flexibility how your looted weapons are going to be. Much more flexible imho but I know jackshit about ACS ;_;.

>>16234470

>>16234740

Speaking of Moonman, does anyone have the "latest" version.

Mine is like a hundred years old.

>>16234908

https://gitgud.io/moon-men/moonman-doom

Links on there but I just cloned the Git repo. GZDoom can accept folders as well as WAD/PK3, not sure about other ZDoom variants.

>>16242209

for anyone curious as to what the fuck I was doing, I'm playing through a bunch of doom mods

this is my current loadout:

-iwad base/doom2.wad -file wad/visual/droplets.pk3 wad/gameplay/bulletz.pk3 wad/gameplay/immerse.pk3 wad/maps/eviternity.wad wad/weapons/latailorgirl.pk3 wad/gameplay/enhancedAI.pk3

>people itt hate Icarus Lives

I… didn't know he would elicit this much of hate. I thought, for a yter, he was alright since he actually reviews the game without poor narration.

>>16150192

>Hideous Destructor is too hard

Don't you tell me it's easy. The mod was meant to be difficult, after all.

Anyway, to contribute to the thread, I suggest a time-waster mod: REELism. I personally find it outshining from the rest as this mod has RNG, making each play session a different experience from the last. Besides, majority, and I mean 85% of Doom mods are just map and weapon changes.

>>16243324

I'll second this one. It's ridiculous just how many mods there are to import weapons from other games, but even moreso that many of them feel exactly like in the base game and are fit naturally into Doom. Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Blood, Half-Life. There's undoubtedly more.

>>16243309

That one's a fun one, along with that one survival mod whose name escapes me. Like the UT2004 game mode where you have to fight off waves of Unreal enemies but also focuses on defending something more than pure survival.

>>16243299

He literally didn't read the manual and bitched about basic shit. He's fucking retarded.

>>16150192

Tell me about Hideous Destructor, anon.

>>16248540

That guy is a CIA acceleration faggot.

>>16249324

Mark, you may as well tripfag if you are gonna be this obvious. Please stop damaging what little PR you have left this is emberassing.

Also,

>>16249292

>>16249653

So it's tacticool doom? Looks nice, thanks anon.

>>16249720

It's a little overly tacticool, imo.

A little advice, swallow your pride and start on one of the lower difficulties. Even in Vanilla Doom/Doom 2, the number of enemy spawns on Ultra Violence can be too much for you to possibly handle.

https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=37044

DoomRL Arsenal updated to 1.1 two day ago fucking finally Yholl, it only took you three and a half years.

>>16250814

why the fuck does IDKFA draw a joke weapon and then crash? I just want to test the damn weapons. What a fucking meme.

>>16250943

Because retards think that shit is funny, same as the "epic" intentional brutal doom troll code.

>>16250943

It's to do with the weapon/armor pickup limits and going over it causing shit to break. If you want to try stuff out open up the console and type "give RL(weapon/armor name)pickup". You can do the same with modpacks as well.

>>16251387

>retards only play Doom with BD

>retards try playing other mods with BD, cry to mod authors when they obviously break

>mod authors try to make it clear BD is incompatible with most shit, retards don't listen

>mod authors stick in jokes making fun of casual retards who keep trying to use BD with everything, because nothing else gets the point across

Take a moment and really think about the fact you're so salty over something that hurts nobody and only affects idiots who refuse to play without BD. Are you saying that making fun of the casual masses is bad? We do it here, on this board, all the time, when it comes to the people who play CoD, ASSFAGGOTS, and other such games, yet a few modders making fun of the casuals who flocked to Brutal Doom is unacceptable?

>>16251420

No, I'm telling you that the people who are so fucking mad that they deliberately include code to break mods are retarded. You think people like Terminus aren't pandering to those exact same casual masses? It's the modding equivalent of virtue signalling, they themselves are hardly better than what they're mocking, they're just slightly more up their own asses.

You don't have any knowledge of ZDoom's "culture", or you're deliberately ignoring it.

One thing I've learned in my years, the vast majority of modders across all games are drama queen faggots.

>>16251437

The mods are not deliberately broken. They were already incompatible by virtue of Brütal Doom being grossly incompatible and shitty code in general, and yet retards think loading mods that change the monsters and weapons onto a mod that changes the monsters and weapons is going to work out somehow. They deserve to have fun poked at them and it shows the modders have a sense of humour.

For reference, I know of 3 mods that have BD detection. Demonsteele, H-Doom, and Abort. All 3 of those replace weapons and monsters.

>>16251437

>they deliberately include code to break mods are retarded

I thought handling errors, without just immediately crashing, was what programs were supposed to do. I guess every programming source I've learned from is wrong. These mods should just be allowed to crash clumsily when loaded with Brutal Doom.

>>16251295

https://github.com/Sumwunn/DoomRPG/tree/drla_update

>>16251510

Oh thank fuck. I remember trying to update it myself a long time ago and just falling flat on my face the moment it came to actually fixing bugs. Hopefully it's fixed that one issue with hellstorm elementals crashing the game.

So it's basically Quake?

>>16271709

Sure looks like it

Why would you use a first-person engine to simulate third-person games?

>>16132103

anyone who tries to create a cult of personality around themself or act in such a manner deserves this, too many communities get destroyed by people like this

>>16131514

For people looking for the Project Brutality 3.0.

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>>16281633

christ couldn't you pastebin it?

>>16281633

>>16281790

https://github.com/pa1nki113r/Project_Brutality/tree/master

>>16290665

thanks for letting us know, s'arais, it's extremely important and relevant

>>16290739

That's funny because they're all better than anything pulled out of your miserable ass :)

>>16290752

I'd wager that one of my turds has significantly more value that any of your "my first map" disasters, honestly.

>>16290769

Except it doesn't and never will.

Anybody who thinks YOUR maps are good are your personal fuckbuddies.

No map made by the "veterans" these days is good. They're all unplayable clusterfucks.

90% of the shitposting against my works is just slander made by assblasted furfaggots (like you).

Shame that I am a literal god in this area.

Your attempts to suppress will be all for naught.

>>16290787

i almost had hope that you would actually come to your senses for real this time

what a shame