/v/ - Video Games

The Dark Sun games are on GOG (or Goodolddownloads I presume) and are supposedly very good.

If you can stomach slow load times and lag, you can try D&D Tactics for PSP. Just make sure to build your party properly. For some reason, Metamagic feats don't actually raise spell level there.

If you want combat Temple of Elemental Evil is the best (gameplay wise) D&D game ever made.

>>15762450

>The Dark Sun

Sounds like a boring walk in the desert

But I can use that link to get myself NWN, was about to buy on steam

>>15762458

>If you can stomach slow load times and lag

I can't

>>15762461

Temple of Elemental Evil

Will check it out

Also, what about NWN2? Is it just shit?

>>15762565

Just pirate NWN. I'd recommend Tales of Arterra https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/module/tales-arterra-lost for a fun little 5-10 hour module.

>>15762450

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_video_games

I'd recommend

>dark sun shattered lands

>baldur's gate 1-2

>planescape torment

>icewind dale 1 (never played 2 so Icant recommend it)

>neverwinter nights 1-2

check PCGW for any fixes and pirate them on GoD

>>15762565

>what about NWN2?

it wasn't the worst game ever or anything but NWN1 makes it look like dogshit

>>15762788

Pirated both, enhanced have UI scaling, diamond does not, simple as that

>>15762873

How are the stealth mechanics?

Start with backstab then never again until the end of the combat (ie: next room)?

>>15762890

One of the classes has an amazing feat. Shadowdancer gives you Hide in Plain Sight for free on level 1. You get to attack, move away a meter, hide, and then attack again and catch your opponent flat-footed with crits with both of your weapons. It's very good.

>>15762920

Ah, I forgot. There's also a feat that you can get fairly early. There's a skill-check, and if it succeeds, the enemies get in prone position. Endless backstabs. Rogues aren't worth it if you can't get more than one backstab per fight.

>>15762920

>>15762936

time to make a custom portrait

>>15762565

>Also, what about NWN2? Is it just shit?

It was better in many ways, but had a worse camera. It's well worth playing, especially the expansions. The original campaign is just kind of generic and bland.

Also, you really should check out Icewind Dale if you haven't already, barring Planescape Torment it's the best D&D game.

>>15763055

You better have high appraise to rip off every goyim merchant you see.

>>15763055

>not putting 16/12 in constitution/wisdom instead

Enjoy shit tier saves and no health.

The morality system is warped. I was a fairly good guy according to game until I lied to a few criminals in order to catch them all. Really, some basic and tame ends justify the means stuff, and now the game thinks I eat children for breakfast.

>>15763099

Wisdom is a dump stat. It's not very useful in the game. Pretty much only for will saves, and there are other ways of handling that.

>>15763108

It almost sounds like getting shit on by wizards is good fun.

>>15763114

Maybe I'm a bit biased. I'm the rogee guy, and wizards are harmless to me. I just hide when they try to target me with a spell. With potion of clarity that gives you immunity to spells that affect the mind, they can only harm you with aoe damage, and they never do it when you're close. Still, with a warrior, I doubt it's worth spending so many points on wisdom just for some minor saves.

>>15763099

healthy is for niggers that get hit, gotta have those 44 skill points

>>15763080

had to put only 2 on it, too many other skills I want

What was the deal with hirelings? I feel like I lose too much firepower if I don't use them, but I don't want to baby sit them.

Going solo gives more exp, at least?

>>15763297

>solo gives more exp

In NWN? Not really. They also happen to have their chapter specific quests so they in a fashion provide more XP. Also, you're going to have one hell of a ride with that character. STR 6? Christ.

>>15763108

>not playing a chode-smashing motherfucker of a warpriest with amazing Will saves and good Fort saves

Reflex saves are not usually "save or die" shit. Will and Fort saves will save you from "save or die" shit a lot, not to mention all the other annoying shit that tends to fall under those particular saves.

>>15763340

Divine casters suck in just about every dnd crpg I've played. Honorary mention to Jaehira's insect swarm thing that pushed me thru BG2 until I got off that crutch and that lizard, orc thing from Birthright with the specter swarm.

>Reflex saves are not usually "save or die" shit

Reflex saves are used for AoOs. So, yeah, they usually are. And by mid game you're almost certainly equipped with one of the many items that provide spell resistance.

>>15763422

>bows and slings are mighty +0

>aka can't get a bonus but you get all the malus

Why a sling, then? You're without exaggeration cutting your damage by half with that strength. And what's the fun of playing rogue if you can't carry loot for shit?

There are literally no good D&D games because they're all based on fundamentally flawed tabletop mechanics that only work in the freeform multiplayer atmosphere of a flesh and blood role-playing tabletop game. Just play a good RPG instead, like Exile II: Crystal Souls.

>>15763387

>Reflex saves are used for AoOs

AoOs are based on a number of things, but not a single fucking one of them is a Reflex save.

>And by mid game you're almost certainly equipped with one of the many items that provide spell resistance.

SR only matters when the spell's script checks for it. There are MANY spells and spell-like abilities that don't give a shit about your Mirror Shield. Also, nice SR, would be a shame if you got hit with a breach that effectively nuked it.

>Divine casters suck in just about every dnd crpg I've played.

3E makes them reasonably solid. 3.5E does better than that. Divine casters don't do DC-casting shit well unless you are PURE divine caster (and even then Wiz/Sorc beats you handily for shit that's downright impossible for enemies to save against), but they still get some absolutely ridiculous toys.

>>15763437

>And what's the fun of playing rogue if you can't carry loot for shit?

First: Recall stone

Second: I remember wandering with bags of carry inside bags of carry the first time I've played

Currently I've used the sling in the tutorial to save bolts, since enemies have only 1 health besides 3 or 4 exceptions out of 60~

>>15763449

Any random rpg out there will have even more flawed mechanics, like teleporting items between inventories of party members and telekinesis, which lets me carry a 12591 invulnerable backpack with layers upon layers of crates inside and beat the entire game with it

>>15762846

I just noticed I replied to the wrong person, sorry about that

>>15763452

Frankly you might be correct. But then saves are not something you need to consider all that much in NWN. Hell, even the AC becomes a joke after a point. It would be a shame if the guy throwing breach can't follow up on the account of those two +5 kurkis jutting out of his colon.

>>15763495

Base game/OC? Probably not. It's cake, and is generally regarded poorly for a good reason.

SoU/HotU? Shit's gonna get exciting when caster mobs worth their salt start showing up. Have fun with the Demilich in HotU.

>>15763466

>Any random rpg out there will have even more flawed mechanics

Kinda hard to get worse than the shitty dice-roll-for-success mechanic for fucking everything in D&D games.

>>15763522

>grr rolling imaginary plastic polyhedrons and then doing basic addition/subtraction with modifiers makes me mad

>>15763576

>That fight left such a large impression on me that I had to look it up to remember what you're talking about.

If you say so.

>Gutting a dragon or some nasty golem that's in your way only to tease about how you're not supposed to be able to kill them at that point? That's fun.

Good luck handling either breezily with a roguish build. There are entire sections in HotU that seem to be expressly designed to punish rogues severely. Traps? Who gives a shit. Cleric can, if really needed, whip Find Traps out and just make anything but scripted traps go the fuck away. Sneak attacks? Good luck when you're dealing with golems, undead, dragons (or undead dragons YEAH YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A LOT OF FUN WITH THAT ONE). You will have to crutch so hard on UMD in places you'll wonder why you didn't just roll a caster.

But hey, you'll probably make your reflex saves.

>>15763561

>addition/subtraction with modifiers

Can you read? The problem is the dice-roll-for-success faggotry, not all random numbers.

>>15763576

I'd replace it with a system where skills have hard stat checks and always work once you satisfy them. Why should I pump exp into a particular attribute when something that needs it could still fail anyway? It's a trash mechanic that doesn't value player skill or character progression.

>>15763609

>I'd replace it with a system where skills have hard stat checks and always work once you satisfy them.

<what is the Take 20 rule (if you're skillmonkeying in combat you're just retarded)

>The problem is the dice-roll-for-success faggotry, not all random numbers.

if you haven't stacked the deck well and good with skillranks+modifiers you deserve failure

>>15762880

My classes are Rogue, Shadowdancer and Ranger. I got the last class for the free dual-wielding feats, and shadowdancer is OP:

Play Dark Sun and the Gold Box games for peak D&D crpg

>>15763656

In NWN? I have never seen any feat that lets you roll a Sneak Attack against SA-immunes. I've played NWN and the expansions a fucking lot. You will still do basic attack damage to SA-immune mobs, mind you, but your Sneak Attack multiplier will mean jack and shit because the Sneak Attack never actually kicks in proper. Unfortunately, for a Rogue your basic attack damage generally tends to pale compared to a more martial role, in part because without the right amount of martial levels added to the mix your BAB/attack schedule isn't going to be fantastic.

Be sure to pirate NWN Diamond GOG version, since the only way you can purchase it now is bundled with Beamdyke's "remastered" version

General rule is "if it's immune to Critical Hits, it's immune to Sneak Attacks". There are, IIRC, some anomalous monsters in campaigns that don't behave in the manner you'd expect (e.g. an "undead" creature that isn't crit/SA-immune) but this is generally the result of dev oversight. Crit/SA immunity is usually granted to monsters via a "skin" item (undroppable IIRC) that they have in their inventory, and there are certain monsters in certain classes where this skin item is presumably absent. You'd have to open up the Aurora Toolset and pick through campaign modules to find them, but they're there somewhere. Anomalies all the same, however.

>>15763748

>nwn2

would probably explain it.

>>15763602

You erping some passive aggressive shit for no reason aside, yes, I imagine making a reflex save against aoe like breath abilities would help. Now if we can have a nice chat I'd like to ask you whether you tried the drow tales module? Personally I had a grand time adapting my usual slasher to some of the more exotic critters and encounters.

>>15763704

>Sneak Attack never actually kicks in proper

What about blackguard and or assassin? I distinctly remember their levels and version of SA passing thru defences normal SA wouldn't.

>>15762458

The UI is also fucking horrendous. Pass on that game. Maybe if I was stuck on an airplane, sure, but no reason to play it otherwise.

>>15763766

Drow Tales? No. I think I've gone through ADWR, Swordflight (first chapter) and I tried SINFAR but don't think I finished.

>What about blackguard and or assassin? I distinctly remember their levels and version of SA passing thru defences normal SA wouldn't.

In NWN Blackguard SA and Assassin Death Attack roll the same check as a basic Sneak Attack, with the following caveats:

1. Basic Sneak Attack and Blackguard SA and Assassin DA all stack

2. Assassin DA absolutely REQUIRES the target not be in combat AT ALL to trigger the extra goodies Death Attacks give like paralysis.

>>15763518

The fight I remember the most from HOTU was the one against the evil adventuring party when you enter that one cave. That was some intense shit. Too bad the module was buggy as fuck in the second half and kinda became shitty.

>>15763609

The "dice roll for success faggotry" you're referring to is how a character is separated from you, the player. Some people find it appealing to let the dice "tell the story" of that character, adding unexpected things into the story. A story where you always win because you, the player, is good at the game is just as boring as one where you always lose. Maybe you should just accept that CRPGs aren't for you?

>>15763793

Do they really stack? It's been awhile since I had my hands on NWN but again, I'm pretty sure the trademark bioware coding didn't flag everything immune to SA immune to those two. But over-depending on one Maneuver with a mature character is silly. I mean, a mature slasher should either have enough attacks per round and fighter/whatever levels to apply damage even without SA or some magic of his own to fall back on. Both for best results.

>Drow Tales

You should probably give it a shot. Bastard of Kosigan as well for that comfy darklands vibe.

Something to keep in mind about reflex saves is that while halving a dragon breath or Fireball's damage is nice, they're not usually huge OH SHIT moments unless you're already kind of ragged. Furthermore, if you really want to capitalize on Reflex saves in particular (this can sometimes be a matter of what you are encountering in module, to be fair) you really REALLY want Uncanny Dodge. UD is fucking fantastic at saving your skin, and you usually don't really need more than one rank of it.

>>15763825

>Do they really stack?

To the absolute best of my knowledge, yes. There is also an item property for weapons that grants Sneak Attack multiplier, but I forget if it overrides basic SA or Blackguard SA (you're unlikely to see it anyway).

>>15763825

>he thinks rogue classes aren't good in NWN

I assume you're not familiar with corner sneaking.

>>15763837

>Uncanny Dodge

Rogues get that for free. I'm also certain they get all ranks other then epic levels for free.

>halving a dragon breath

What about evasion? It's avoid all damage. Slippery mind also comes to, pardon the expression, mind for all other saves.

>>15763853

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

>>15763853

Corner sneaking is great against non-crit/SA immune mobs. Very good in PvP environments (roguish chaps/backstabbers are amazing in PvP environments if you know the tricks).

Corner sneaking will, IIRC, sometimes grant you a SA opening against a mob with shit like heavy investment in Spot/Listen because of the slight delay before the mob in question rolls the skill check to Spot/Hear you. However, I have never corner stabbed a True Seeing mob successfully to my recollection. Dragons use True Seeing (and it cannot be dispelled in their case).

>>15763869

>What about evasion? It's avoid all damage. Slippery mind also comes to, pardon the expression, mind for all other saves.

Oh yes, evasion/Improved evasion are fantastic and I was getting them mixed up with UD (UD keeps you from being caught flatfooted and losing AC, Evasion/Improved Evasion let you shrug off breath/fireballs like nothing). IE will require 10 levels in Rogue, however (or 9 in Monk I think, I forget when/if Shadowdancer gets it)

Slippery Mind is deceptively terrible. Shadowdancer will get it for free, but it's bad. It lets you reroll a failed will save. You failed the will save once, you will probably fail it twice unless you actually have decent Will saves and just got incredibly unlucky the first time (Rogues generally have terrible Will saves anyway)

>>15763873

I spent a lot of time on PvP servers. Clowny as fuck, but good fun.

>>15763894

Statistically speaking, a reroll is roughly equivalent a +4 or 5 on a roll. Which is pretty decent. Of course, if the roll requires a nat 20 from you, then yeah, you're fucked.

>>15763894

I don't get why you're talking about HOTU and low level, single class rogues. Even if you don't go full shit and giggles with red dragon levels or something equally silly you're certainly capable of playing around casters. Plowing thru them, even. Again, I can't for the love of life remember one bam: you're dead tier spell or ability in the vein of something you'll see in BG or older titles. On the other hand early on a really, really high AC enemy with more attacks then you and damage soak can give you a run for your money.

>>15763946

>I don't get why you're talking about HOTU and low level, single class rogues.

I'm not. I played through HotU with a fighter/rogue/later WM as well and it was sheer unbridled pain even with good BAB and attack schedules (and IKD to crutch on in a pinch). Basically, once you leave Undermountain/1st Chapter your free ride is fucking over as a rogue.

>Again, I can't for the love of life remember one bam: you're dead tier spell

Finger of Death will come up occasionally IIRC, as will Phantasmal Killer.

>>15763941

>posts the definition of game as if that means anything

Games are not defined by skill, you clown. I'm guessing you haven't played any board games.

Again, "skill" is player skill, not character skill. CRPGs ans tabletop RPGs are story crafting games. The story isn't exciting if there's one dude who just always fucking wins because he's played the game a few times. Hence, the random element. It really sounds like CRPGs are simply not for you.

>>15762565

Neverwinter Nights 2 had its publisher bar the developer from releasing an essential patch for the game, but it's still pretty good. Mask of the Betrayer gets highly recommended as an RPG campaign.

>>15764011

>Games are not defined by skill, you clown.

In fact, they are. By definition a game must test the player's skill. If the player is simply fed a story as a reward without earning it, that's not different from a book or movie. If on the other hand skill is meaningless because of randomness, that's no different from gambling. The difference between a game is one of skill development getting the player closer to victory. If your game tests the player's skill poorly, it is a poorly constructed game. One of the skills in good RPGs is the player understanding that developing a specific statistic or piece of equipment will make the difference between victory and defeat.

The difference between video game RPGs and tabletop role-playing, however, is one of player count. Tabletop role-playing is essentially a party activity where you can fuck around and laugh with some friends and it doesn't really matter who wins. Singleplayer video game RPGs do not have the luxury of a good time with a friend to use as a crutch for bad game design. Thus it is quite tragic when one decides to crib all the worst design ideas from D&D and try to fit them into a singleplayer game experience where they were never designed to belong in.

It's starting to sound like games themselves aren't for you though. Care to answer my Ultima question at least?

>>15764090

MotB has an amazing evil playthrough. A lot of people shit on Storm of Zehir but it's still better than the NWN2 OC.

>>15764116

You're an adorable little motherfucker, aren't you? You think you're the gatekeeper on the definition of game. That's quaint. If you're really going to shift the goalpost to arguing about what a game is, this is going to go nowhere fast, because nobody actually agrees on that. You'd know this if you studiedgame design in a serious capacity. People can't even agree if a game has a fail state now, they just agree that it has to have a system of rules.

>players

While difficult, it is still possible to make a good CRPG that emulates the feel of crafting a story by writing good enough party companions and providing alternate ways to handle situations Not all skill is removed from the game because ultimately you have to make a decision to do something. The "exciting" part comes when you have to improvise because your roll to succeed at something failed. It's a similar experience to starting a Fortress in DF and seeing how it goes. Almost everything that happens in that game is random to an extent, much like CRPGs. But when you do something you think will work and it doesn't is when things get interesting.

>Ultima

Haven't played it, sorry.

>>15764157

Also

>hurrdurr I HATE RANDOMNESS

it's a good fucking thing D&D is nowhere near as random as you seem to think it is (as long as you're not a fucking retard).

fucking god damn nigger cunt shit you know who I meant to address

>>15764168

Like I said, it's not entirely random. The randomness is there to force you to resolve unexpected situations and prevent a dominant strategy from appearing, because those are fucking boring. Many newer groups have an issue when they play where they find an effective way of solving every problem and just do that, over and over again, then don't understand why the game is so boring. A popular one is setting everything on fire, when It's not a dungeon. It's usually the cause of an inexperienced GM, but the players are guilty even if they don't realize it. It's natural to gravitate towards the most effective strategy, but the most fun is usually had when you have to take serious risks.

>Ctrl + f "Knights of the Chalice"

>0 results

Plebs, all of you.

>>15764203

Yes, KotC is good D&D vidya, here's your (you) for your services.

>>15764157

The fact of the matter is that game can have a meaningful definition, and rather than attempt to refute any of my points you just decided a game can be anything. Okay. Doesn't take away from the central complaint that excessively randomized shit, especially random failure that can only be risk-assessed rather than avoided, is antithetical to skill development.

>>15764190

I'm not talking about any old randomness by the way. It's one thing to let a the damage of some attack follow some range of possible quantities; that's fine and makes things more interesting as you say. It's quite another thing for every type of skill or status-affecting move's success or failure be tied to a dice roll and whose randomness can never really be eliminated even maxing out some related statistic.

It's fitting that you think you're the gatekeeper on definition of CRPG when you haven't even played an Ultima game. Ultima games generally didn't have a problem with this excessive random failure crap that is a "feature" in more blatant D&D ripoffs. If Ultima is too primitive for you then go play one of its excellent clones in the Exile series and experience what a genuinely great CRPG is like.

>>15764528

Even if I knew you had studied as much as I did, I still wouldn't care to "refute" any of your "points." You haven't even defined "skill," for a start. Are adventure games not games? They don't test "skill." On the other hand, if problem-solving is a skill, then that certainly makes CRPGs a test of it. Can you see yet why this argument is banal and retarded? And why I didn't even care to approach it, when you wouldn't even define what you think "skill" is? It's a waste of time that more closely resembles a philosophical debate, and like those neither of us will have walked away with a changed opinion, regardless of the outcome.

>exile and ultima are less random

I honestly don't even comprehend how you can make this assertion. The attacks are still randomly determined and so is the damage. What are you referring to that is somehow less random?

>>15762439

Try this OP.

GG for D&D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temple_of_Elemental_Evil_(video_game)#Controversy

>>15763131

>With potion of clarity that gives you immunity to spells that affect the mind

I don't believe Clarity protects from Phantasmal Killer, and any wizard with that most likely buffs True Sight at the start of combat.

Wanna know how many rogues I've had die?

So.. how does stealth works anyway?

Sometimes breaking line of sight makes me go out of combat, sometimes it does not… Is it the listen check? I doubt those prisoners are getting it on every single fucking time.

Is it because I need to match the line of sight break with the turn timer?

Also, about killing random friendly npcs for the sweet sweet exp, any consequences? I already know you can de-aggro invulnerable plot npcs by entering/leaving the room and quickly talking to them when you re-enter

>>15764528

>it's quite another thing for every type of skill or status-affecting move's success or failure be tied to a dice roll and whose randomness can never really be eliminated even maxing out some related statistic.

Most DnD GM guides I actually read instead of collecting dust on my shelf or harddrive recommends only calling for rolls when it seems like the task the character is doing would actually have a reasonable risk of failure or where adding the risk increases the tension or suspense. It's also not uncommon for GMs to just straight up suspend rolling anything if modifier is so low or so high it's nigh impossible to get any other result for several dozen rolls.

>>15764701

Well if I were to categorize skills for games I'd do it for separate mental skills. I'd keep the actual physical actions of rolling dice or pushing a button as being measured for the skill floor of simply having basic unimpaired cognitive functions for memory and hand eye coordination.

Should I stop being autistic about the 20% exp tax for having a henchman or should I:

a) never open a single fucking chest with my warrior

b) take 11 years to kill undeads with my rogue

?

>>15777004

just play wizard or cleric with knock domain you fucker

who plays melee classes in 3.5e anyway el em ay oh

>>15762963

>Also, you really should check out Icewind Dale if you haven't already, barring Planescape Torment it's the best D&D game.

Literally how can you think this? BG2 blows IWD1/2 out of the water.

>>15779468

xp is not modified by which class you pick, but it is lowered by mutliclass penalties

>>15779468

You get shit XP from killing mobs. I think it all came from doing quests. Also clerics are fucking broken

>>15780093

oh yes it is in the original campaign

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Effective_character_level

>>15780106

Returning a piece of a walterdevian or whatever creature to the paladin lady gives you 200 exp.

killing 3 goblins gets you 225 as a lv3 cleric

>>15780129

Oh. Then you just get shit XP in this game and leveling is slow as shit. They probably nerfed clerics because there's TONS of undead levels and clerics are stronk as fuck all around.

>>15780129

Summons and familiars also count as party members for dividing experience in NWN. A well built cleric will still make pretty much any module a cakewalk.

>>15788718

I am walking around with 31 armor at lv9

I can go up to 25 str for 102 seconds while beating the living shit up of things like I was a warrior.

I will fully buff up tonight and post a screenshot, it's completely bonkers

>>15788758

I'm perfectly aware of some of the roids available for clerics and with that said the only time I'd call a cleric strong was in case of a thief/cleric with a staff of ram or staff of magi. Lvl 9 fighter munching and with some decent items has at least STR 21, much higher base attack and better HP rolls. Also better weapons and specialization for said weapons.

>>15763108

>Will Saves

>Almost all CC, stuns, and mind fuckery spells ever.

>All those edgy ass Undead with their fear auras that forces everyone to run and hide.

>Playing a tiny shoe stealer leprechaun.

You did this on purpose.

>>15763387

>Divine casters suck in just about every dnd crpg I've played.

Compared to what? Wizards? No shit.

>>15763452

<3E, 3.5E

>Master of Time and Space Tier

Wizard

>God Tier

Cleric

>I don't know that spell Tier

Sorcerer

>Make up your fucking mind already Tier

Fucking Druids

>Can someone else do it Tier

Bard

>I can use healing wands Tier

Paladin

Ranger

<Not a caster Tier

Everyone else.

>>15790106

>A non minmax lvl 9 fighter would have STR at least 18 and probably 19-20, DEX at the very least 16 and probably higher and CON the same

<Not even 21 STR, the bare minimum I get if I bother using the buffs

<Thinks that ability scores are THAT important, favors DEX higher than STR on a melee character

You know that STR mod is just +1 attack/damage, right? Not only I have more than your examples, I got spells that do better than that

>At least one more attack (at higher base attack), weapon focus, weapon specialization and likely power attack and cleave (and again, base attack to pull it off).

Every single one of these I get and better with spells, which I can use every single encounter at the cost of 0gp. Fighters only get 3rd attack at level 11, and so do I during my 22 rounds duration Divine Might.

Did you forget the 1d6+4 fire damage on every attack that you can never have?

<Thinks that power attack is EVER a good feat and not just the prerequisite to greater cleave

>He's also have higher base HP

Don't even have a 10/+5 soak with a 90 health for physical and 30/- with 40 health for each individual element and thinks he got more HP

>and same if not better AC

Please tell me what you are smoking. Let's say you cheat yourself +3 full plate and +3 tower shield at level 9. You are still missing 3 deflection from Shield of Faith (replaceable with +3 armor ring/ armlet) and +1/+1 natural/dodge from mage armor. Before you say Barkskin, I also can use the potions. I too have Improved Expertise, but I won't be using that until about lv15 when I can stop wasting time with melee combat

>A smart fighter would also carry some liquid courage in the vein of potion of haste/stoneskin/whatever.

So could I, if I were weak enough to need those

>Most common priest buffs you used there for example come in cheap scrolls

<Thinks that he will have the gold to afford 8~ 120~ gold potions and scrolls every single encounter

<Don't know that scrolls and potions are mostly caster level 3

>A proper smart fighter would take rogue levels and add a ton of versatility with the use device skill.

I have been planning doing that, since I want that +5 dodge AC +3 dex monk only boots in chapter 4

But I don't know if measly 2 AC is worth spending a whole level taking a shit class

Face it, clerics are the ultimate melee fighter, during the time they are still not good enough to be pure casters.

MAYBE a weapon master keen sabre user could top it, but I doubt it

>>15788874

Why the fuck would you roll 10 strength? Isn't encumbrance going to be a bitch and a half? Do 12/10/14/10/18/8 like a sensible person.

>>15790556

>Why the fuck would you roll 10 strength?

Because Divine Might sets to 18 regardless of the current value (but will not decrease it). I was even considering rolling 8

>Isn't encumbrance going to be a bitch and a half?

Magic bags and bags of holding, also, bull strength is available at lv5. It's not much of a problem using light armor and light shields until then

Also, I need at least 13 int for Improved Expertise

>Roiding a shit fighter will objectively be weaker then roiding an excellent fighter

You can't make two characters, so that's not a factor.

Were this a game where you build a whole team rather than a single character, you would be correct, but it's not

>Don't loot anything the whole game, so that not only you don't need to juggle knock and detect traps with your buffs, all items will generate at whatever is the max level you get at the current chapter

<Do the mind-boggling boring-ass mechanical work of going through all maps and looting stuff

MY KINGDOM FOR A LOOT ALL HOTKEY

>>15790862

You have been proven objectively wrong, feel free to post smug anime to feel better about it

>>15790889

I do actually feel for you. If you were shitposting and not actually as shit for brains as you are you'd consider I'm bored enough to try and help you. Crutching a shit character on few cheap, low level select spells that scale for shit with no endgame, no follow up build and no core capabilities leads to bad times. Same goes for pointless downtime you keep spending on prebuffing and shit.

But what's worse you drool over obvious shit, ignore everything else, and can't even into the truly munchkin talk of domains and further prestige classes.

>>15790916

Dude, my cleric is a caster character, this is for shits and giggles until it can cast high level spells

Just because it can out perform a fighter when it is not even trying to be one, you don't have to get mad about it.

>>15788780

>with that said the only time I'd call a cleric strong was in case of a thief/cleric with a staff of ram or staff of magi.

<Not monk/cleric one of the most broken builds in the game

>>15791002

OK, let's go to the imaginary world where I want to be a dirt eating melee character

Weapon Focus: +1/+0 attack/damage

Weapon specialization: +0/+2 attack/damage

Weapon Master: Superior weapon focus: +1/+0 attack/damage

Total: +2/+2

Meanwhile this motherfucking lv1 spell:

Caster Level / Bonus

1 +1/+1

6 +2/+2

9 +3/+3

12 +4/+4

15 +5/+5

A single lv1 spell outperforms 3 feats by more than twice

Can you please get any more wrong? Please Illuminate me.

>>15791006

>Duration: 10 rounds

I will delete you if you forget to mention this again

>>15791017

that's literally forever my dude, uses lv1 slots, can be extended with lv2 slots

10 fucking rounds is 30 attacks

Did you know you get spell slots back by pressing "R"?

>>15791006

I think that dude is thinking about clerics in 3.5 D&D or something. When this game had servers that weren't RP, like capture the flag, pvp, MobA-likes, hell even the MMO clones you'd see clerics a ton, because they had OP spells (implosion, true seeing), ok fighting stats, heals & roids out the ass. This is considering the fact that everyone multi-classes. They weren't straight up broken like palemaster but if you mixed with monk it was getting to that point. I think you could even still get devastating crit) ontop of your broken ass spells, but I can't remember for sure.

Seriously. Cleric monk is fucking retarded:

>Move speed out the ass

>Most attacks per round in the game

>Tons of roids

>Wisdom scales both spells and monk abilities

>Some of the best saving throws

>Really high AC

>Broken ass spells

There where other builds that edged it out involving epic dodge, pale master, devastating crit, etc. It's been years since I played so I forget the exact build and numbers, but I remember back in the day clerics where no joke. Both in PvE and PvP. This is of course strictly for NWN, not D&D 3.5

>>15791054

Thanks for reminding me not to be retarded

I was going to get a level in rogue at lv21 to get use magic device (so that I can get that monk only boots with 5 dodge AC and dex) and tumble for the sweet dodge AC

Now I know the true way is monk.

Although my character was not made for that, therefore 10 DEX.

I assume most monk shit don't work on full plate armor and tower shield

>>15791031

Except you also need to cast Haste, Divine Power, Battletide and sometimes Clarity/Spell Resistance when nigger wizards are afoot. Though you are right in that there are means of extending those effects, there's still some buffup time at start of combat.

>>15791054

>multiclass caster

>multiclass monk

Maybe it's something with Divine Power/Strength domain abuse to limit cleric levels though.

>>15791069

Wouldn't you as a warrior too?

20 turns is literally forever, 6 turns is way more than enough to clear any room of enemies, even if you spend 4 of your turns buffing.

>>15791065

No it doesn't. You honestly don't need it. Monk has insane AC.

>>15791069

I don't remember exactly. I stopped playing NWN when the servers all died off and haven't played any other D&D clones since.

I think the biggest part was Wisdom scaled with Monks fighting abilities AND clerics spells, so you could have some OP as fuck spells + be a ridiculously strong fighter at the same time who was basically immune to magic and most other things. There would always be at least 1 person running around at 10000 mph, fully buffed, getting 6 hits in usually spamming stunning fist or knockdown and blowing people up before they react. Keep in mind NWN is still really different than D&D 3.5, so maybe this only works in NWN. I don't know. All I know is that shit was fucking retarded back in the day.

>multiclass caster

>multiclass monk

Also it's funny you mention that. Pale master was broken because you'd always have fighters getting enough levels in it for the immunities (immune to crit, sneak attack, death magic etc) WHICH ALSO MADE YOU IMMUNE TO DEVASTATING CRIT ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL ABILITIES IN THE GAME. They would have absolutely 0 spells, but they would be able to dev crit you and you couldn't do the same.

Most of the time Dev Crit and Palemaster are nerfed hard into the ground because of this.

>>15791095

I am conflating rounds with turns

I meant 120 turns is literally forever, 36 seconds is way more than enough to clear any room of enemies, even if you spend 24 seconds buffing

>>15791031

>Rest key

This is one of the biggest issues I had with NWN2, resting for 8 hours with the risk of getting attacked was a key factor for a resource mange based system.

>Buffing before combat

>Not during

Technically, if getting the drop on someone should play out like this, but again, if it happens in reverse, your going to waste a turn buffing? That rogue leprechaun has a surprise round and beat your initiative, and you might not even see where it came from. Although I think Initiative is fucked in NWN2, still, he is gonna get some free hits in.

Also

>Buffing before every single encounter..

>Liche doing a shit load buffs in front of fighter.webm

I haven't played NWN2 in a while, but yeah, thats something you can do. Why do they even bother with spells per day, I don't know.

Regardless, a straight fighter getting buffs from a full caster cleric would be much stronger then a fighter/cleric. Considering single player expects you to have a party full of other characters. For a self sufficient solo build, in a low level encounters, that works too. Just hope no one casts dispel magic.

>>15791152

I am playing NWN 1, no idea how it works in 2

In 1, you have a item that lets you teleport back to the main hub, even during combat. So even if the leprechaun jumps me, unless it's instant hit, I escape

Without this item, you can also drink invisibility and disengage to another zone

>Buffing before every single encounter..

I only bother using the short term buffs on bosses, and most "bosses" are so weak that you don't even need. All of the others lasts about 1 hour in real time

>>15780086

Baldur's Gate is pretty reddit, Icewind Dale is much better.

WATERDHAVIAN CREATURES

>try 10/8/14/14/18/8 cleric build

>Level 5, Divine Power, strength domain

>activate and it just deletes everything

>Level 6, extended Divine Favor

>Level 7, Death Ward, Greater Magic Weapon, extended Divine Power

>

This fucking game. Without those buffs it's average, but with those everything just dies to faceramming. You don't even need cure potions that much because things like Magic Vestment on armor AND shield gives you enough AC to bring enemy accuracy down to like 20% or less. The downside, however, is that you don't get nearly enough spell slots for Divine Power, so you only get like two uses per rest and rebuffing after resting every time is really long. Can't wait to get to level 9 to add Haste to the pre-fight buffing queue.

>>15792898

Good job, you discovered CoDzilla.

>>15793015

Dungeon and Dragons Online quests happen in closed off 'dungeon maps'

Those feature "rest rooms" that are one use only. I think. It's been ages since I've played that

It's free up to lv20

>>15792509

BTW anon if you come across any unidentified boots, keep em if you're planning on rolling monk. It has to do with AC.

AC stacking is weird as fuck in this game. It's tied to the type of item. Rings, amulets, belts and gloves all have the same AC type (I think) so they don't stack. If you want to double check, just examine the item. You'll see a type next to AC bonus. Natural, dodge, etc. 2 items with the same type of AC don't stack. Boots had a unique type of AC, BUT all the items with this AC bonus are only available to monk (unless grab UMD as bard/rogue)

>>15762439

The Mystara arcade games are the best D&D games. Find yourself a friend though. It's designed to be played that way, and more fun. None of the CRPG versions are worth a damn. They simulate the mechanics, sure, but they don't actually simulate the adventure. You'd be better off playing Arena.

>>15794928

>They simulate the mechanics, sure, but they don't actually simulate the adventure

Everyone and their mom's grandma would tell you the main draw to NWN is the online play and custom modules, which has Dungeon Masters and most servers these days are Role Playing as adventurers. So this part is complete bullshit, unless you're only playing the original campaign, which was never the draw of the game in the first place.

>>15795001

I won't deny that NWN is the best at that - albeit with the caveat that 3rd Edition is a terrible system, and that it's own implementation is even more limited than the original - but you're ignoring the point here.

The idea that D&D originally attempted to accomplish was to let you put yourself in the role of a fantasy adventurer. You might have some rough props, like the miniatures, but the game at its heart was still played 90% in the head. The problem that almost every D&D game has, NWN included, is that it takes you out of the role and puts you in the space of the observer, controlling the pawn. In the case of NWN, this is combined with the fact that you're using the 3E system, which further encourages the mentality of build-crafting and viewing each character as a tool to act with, rather than as a personal avatar to be acted through.

The Mystara games don't exactly leave much room for characterization and such, but instead accomplish a similar feat through the opposite approach - whereas table-top D&D lets you act through a character mentally, and leave the reflexes to die rolls, these games create the character's and let you control the reflexes. Neither give you 100% control of both facets, but each give you 100% control of a single facet. CRPGs accomplish a bastard middle-ground, even in their absolute best form.

>Improved Expertise

>Let's take 3.5e casters and give them 10 AC for free!

this game is a mistake