af7bc1 No.15616819
One thing I've noticed is that while stealth games can provide ingenious ways of avoiding detection, when it comes to actually getting caught stealth games often only do the videogame-equivalent of fidgeting and twiddling their thumbs.
In most cases when you get spotted, it's often time to reload a save. The problem is usually that technically you could keep playing, but because of your fuck-up the whole level has been alerted and everyone's sense of awareness has been heightened, so continuing will only make it harder on yourself as opposed to reloading and retrying from a state where every guard is still docile. Running away as an option is often made harder when enemies are hitscan or when triggered alarms cause multiple security measures to activate such as raised walls and whatnot. You could retaliate and KO the guard who spotted you before he alerts the others, but often your means to do so are limited and ineffective, especially when you're doing a non-lethal run. The perfectionist way is often the easier way, while improvisation and actually using most of the tools at your disposal fall to the wayside. And I've never really seen a stealth game which encourages improvisation and living with your mistakes over pure perfectionism.
Having to reload a save several times just so you can position yourself in a shadow just perfectly enough so a guard won't end up spotting you after all, or trying to pull of a tricky headshot, or trying to make a tricky jump, isn't that fun to me, anyways. And all systems usually present in stealth games, such as alert levels, non-lethal restrictions, and enemy AI double down on single mistakes very hard.
So how would you design a stealth game which encourages you keep on playing after making mistakes?
Granddaddy Thief took the coward's way out here by giving players the ability to quicksave as much as they want, leaving it up to the player whether dying means losing 5 minutes or 5 seconds of progress instead of balancing the difficulty with a suitable degree of punishment for the chosen difficulty setting, and ultimately promoting degenerate savescumming strategies where reloading a save is easier on the player in the long run than living with their mistakes, further encouraging rote perfectionism. Hitman had a better idea by limiting the amount of times you could quicksaves per level and reducing this amount on higher difficulty settings, and while this establish a more consistent difficulty, it doesn't really address what happens the moment you do get caught. You could not use saves at all, but when Hitman/Thief levels can take up to fifty minutes, the prospect of having to redo all of it when a guard alerts the others isn't very attractive.
Metal Gear Solid allowed you to avoid enemy alerts by hiding somewhere until the alert/caution timer hit 0. Instead of reloading a save, you could just hide somewhere and business would continue as usual after that from where you could proceed safely, though it does make the enemy feel incredibly dumb when they can forget about you just like that. Stealth roguelikes are actually a massive unexplored opportunity. The prospect of permadeath and randomized layouts would put a massive emphasis on actually scouting the place instead of being able to trial 'n error your way through, and if you accidentally get spotted you have to think fast how you're going to get out of this one. It doesn't even need to be procedurally generated, in Payday 2 only parts of the level such as the objective or other points of opportunity were positioned at randomly chosen predetermined positions, so you still had to scout things out even if you were playing the level for the 100th time.
613eb6 No.15616842
Kojima did it well in MGSV. You fuck up and its not just ! ACTION MUSIC TIME But the first thing the enemy does is call in reinforcements and put all nearby bases on full alert. You do it enough times in the same way and they actively start to gear up to counter that.
Sure you can puss out and send your npc drones on sabotage missions but if you keep mixing it up the soldiers actively start to develop PTSD and talk about a 'horned demon in the afghan desert' and behave erratically.
I like leaving it to the player. Do you adapt or wimp out? and have the game reflect it.
2d806a No.15616847
Wasn't there a stealth game where the later levels changed based on how often you were caught?
cd83d3 No.15616858
>>15616842
> if you keep mixing it up the soldiers actively start to develop PTSD and talk about a 'horned demon in the afghan desert' and behave erratically.
Shit, really? I never really change what I do (and the game is fucking PISS EASY which disappoints me), but that'd be interesting to see.
42abc0 No.15616868
>>15616819
Yea yea yea whatever. Now give me sauce.
613eb6 No.15616874
>>15616858
I played it originally on ps3 as i was a poorfag at the time and later got it on real none ten year old hardware and started again, but knowing the game and its nuances/TECHNOLOGY i decided to fuck around.
I specifically remember standing in the middle of the road in the verticle Paz idol box. Some ruskie truck comes down the road and stops. Two ivans get out and do the japanese creepy perv chuckle as they saunted over and OOPS ALL BIG BOSS and i burst out the front, CQC them both the fuck out and leave them in the road and drive their truck away.
Not long after soldiers started talking about 'the horned demon' and the odds of a box working as a stealth thing dropped substantially.
c8a5a7 No.15616889
>>15616868
aka6
He is mostly shit though.
615e1d No.15616898
>>15616847
Payday 2 and MGS Portable Ops + had that mechanic
18c092 No.15616902
>>15616842
Except that never happened. No matter what you did, enemy troops would always get better gear. Same as in Peace Walker which nobody played and didn't realize Big Boss became the villain after the end of that game.
also you're a nigger
42abc0 No.15616903
>>15616889
Only looking at their sheer disgust is giving me a boner.
c8a5a7 No.15616907
>>15616903
its mostly hypershit and bulging, nothing actually hot
613eb6 No.15616909
>>15616902
What do you think all the "disable night vision goggles" style missions and Kaz specifically giving you a radio talk about how "the enemy will adapt to your behaviour boss" was about?
5d90ae No.15616913
>>15616874
Why would anyone ever use something that only has a chance of making the enemy not notice you?
613eb6 No.15616923
>>15616913
TECHNOLOGY. You can rocket out of it into cover and leave them investigating it, slide down hills with it like a sled for low visual, high speed movement.
Its one of those things like noticing there is a wind speed and direction mechanic in MGS4 and going "what is this actually good fo- OHMYGODTHISCHANGESEVERYTHING".
You can still just crabwalk around in a crouch like a protagonist from an amnesia game but you can approach near speed level autism if you want to go fast and like a ghost.
42abc0 No.15616931
File: 9b4d587904e10cc⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 234.73 KB, 850x883, 850:883, sample_56657757cf6228bf953….jpg)
>>15616907
Oh, now I understand…
4a1f01 No.15616942
>>15616847
It'd be cool if stealth games were more like the Mr Freeze fight in Arkham City. Ruling out certain options if you get caught using them. Like if an enemy saw you running around in a box, enemies in later levels should inspect boxes more often or remove them outright.
Closest thing I've seen to this type of adaptive AI is in that Hello Neighbor game, which tracks and anticipates how you play.
2d806a No.15616951
>>15616931
Look up his Samus stuff to see what he's really talking about.
613eb6 No.15616966
>>15616942
Honestly something stealth could look at in a wierd way is Prey 2016's 'Mooncrash' expansion. Its essentially a fixed map but played like a roguelike. Rooms will always be in the same place but enemys change, hazards like fires broken out, damaged power grids and so on means you can get super into a tech build character and on your next run expect him to do great then find out all the shit that needs repairing is destroyed and you need a stronk build to move some heavy shit and without it you are fucked.
Imagine a emergent stealth game where the enemies learn from you and instead of a difficulty select you can puss out and turn it off but otherwise your go to tactics become less effective over time forcing you to improvise. That would make something like Hitman full of replay value beyond its 'trying different toys' gimmick.
0cc54f No.15616979
I think the main problem is that stealth can easily fall into "get caught, run away and hide for two minutes, proceed as if nothing happened". Guards should be on constant alert after you are caught, change up their patrols and postings so it changes up, it can become a different level afterwards.
>So how would you design a stealth game which encourages you keep on playing after making mistakes?
There isn't really much else you can do though. A scoring system which heavily penalizes you for reloading most likely. Players would likely still find a way to get around it though. Best thing really is to offer players the choice and freedom to scum out or not. Deep down, those that save scum know they're doing it wrong so those that beat a mission without reloading or at least a full restart get better satisfaction.
2eacbb No.15617007
>>15616819
>>15616931
How to kill off your well thought-out thread in one easy step: a guide by OP.
0cc54f No.15617012
>>15616966
>>15616942
I could get behind that. Stealth is largely unchanged from the Thief and MGS days and they were two decades ago. Something that pushes players out of their comfort zones would be a nice change up.
If you kill too many guards, they pair up or increase the number of guards. If you knock out too many, they pair up as well or wear something like the heartbeat monitor from the Batman games. Ghost too much and security is massively stepped up to make it damn near impossible.
c8a5a7 No.15617022
>>15617007
>>15616931
Thats one of his few good-ish pics though.
615e1d No.15617025
>>15616819
Splinter Cell Conviction just made enemies switch their pattern when they became alerted.
2eacbb No.15617026
>>15617022
I know, but he's taking a pretty big risk using something like that if you want to keep things on topic
3d35c3 No.15617146
>>15616819
You need Invisible Inc.
It has alarm levels that gradually increase over time. Things like getting spotted, killing guards, running through lasers, etc will advance the alarm, but so will wasting time. Actually hitting max alarm only comes after several mistakes.
Instead of quicksaves, it has a rewind that only goes back by a certain amount, and you can set a limit on how many rewinds you get per mission. This gives an incentive to try and roll with mistakes, since you might need that rewind for something worse later.
If you lose an agent and don't revive them or drag their body to the exit, the only way to get them back is by infiltrating a detention center and busting them out.
It also has randomly-generated levels.
ae3027 No.15617396
>>15616889
Obviously, because I'm pretty sure everyone knows that Asuka has twintails ON TOP OF untied long hair, not just the twintails.
f674ac No.15617397
>>15616842
>Kojipro remnants still shilling for TPP
The AI doesn't adapt to jackshit,
<durr hedshots?
>let's put on helmets!
nobody thought of that ever before!
<call in reinforcements
something doesn't happen because nothing actually exists beyond 300 meters, kind of exception being the vehicles in back up back down
<Use marking like a crutch
>enemy throws baloons
WOW, Amazing!
>Miller tells you no enemy forces in pursuit at the end of the mission
>except nobody ever pursues you because they'd despawn if they left their 300 meter leash radius.
NICE ADAPTIVE AI FUCKTARD
>>15616874
>TECHNOLOGY
>IN TPP
>NUANCES
go to >>>/suicide/ immediately you glue huffer.
Wanna see some technology?
>Throw a smoke grenade or get into a car accident with a walker gear,
>throw a smoke grenade into a jeep to have free, fast stealth camo
>drive horse into one of the 5 pairs of wild dogs
>park anything perpendicular to a car/truck's path
>tranqualize dogs outside mfinda oil field after blowing up the tank
>throw around decoys while full alert is going on to get away everytime
>Try to destroy the canopy of a helicopter to make pilot angry and vulnerable to non-lethal weapons
oh wait, that last one is peace walker, a PSP game, and feature that is missing from TPP
ea1c64 No.15617401
By designing an item that can quickly disable or eliminate an enemy without them alerting others, like a flash bomb or gas grenade.
Except those already exist and you should stop being bad.
50b4b0 No.15619177
>>15616874
that box mechanic has been around since mgs1, the box didn't become less effective, you just used the box in an area that was suspicious for it to be in. that's why there's like 30 different boxes in the game
ab79e6 No.15619216
>>15616819
Payday 2 had a good idea but there should be more missions like the concert heist where you put your mask off at certain points to go undetected again.
Ideally, you'd need enough tools to fuck with the enemy so that your options are many, see EyE Divine Cybermancy for example, being able to hack into cameras, turrets, and even other enemies and make them hostile to the guards is an excellent way of generating distraction from what you're doing.
There should ideally be a way to disable light systems, alarms, cameras, a system that's neither too easy or too hard.
>tl; dr give the player many options to distract, kill, manipulate or blind guards
f674ac No.15619220
>>15616909
>What do you think Kaz specifically giving you a radio talk about how "the enemy will adapt to your behaviour boss" was about?
Another cut feature like the call you get for not giving a fuck about the story-related FOB invasion where Kaz tells you assault failed and so hostages and assault team are dead
2eeec6 No.15619221
Thief already handled it fine, you have escape devices you can use but they cost money and supply is limited. The more you spend on flash bombs is less you can spend on water arrows, for example. Save states are there because it's not made for poorly designed japanese tardboxes with next to no disk space.
As far as alternatives go, I think - and I'm not endorsing the game in general here - Dishonored 2's system of having some means of nonlethal takedowns when you get caught is good.
Give players the ability to fight off one enemy nonlethally, or two to three if they use up an item, and getting caught isn't an immediate loss. Have Thief's model of weighing costs for items that help with stealth vs items that help with combat. If a player does kill enemies more than a couple times, guards in later missions are more alert and keep better track of each other making combat no longer viable. Do not track times detected in post mission stats because that triggers people's autism and causes reloading. Detection should only affect alert state in that level.
The player should be just capable of dealing with an alert enemy that they can stop them from warning the level but still vulnerable enough that an area with lots of guards makes a detection very costly in items.
6b9553 No.15619258
I wish more games had limited saves like AVP has.
Can only save a couple times in a mission/level/stage. Playing on easy gives you more saves than on say hard difficulty. This encourages tactical saving and completely kills save-scumming.
6b9553 No.15619262
Monaco has good stealth, and it's not even really a stealth game.
It's a heist game that allows you to go full stealth or pure chaos. Both options are presented in each level and you can utilize improvisation depending on your class and if you're playing co-op with someone else.
6b9553 No.15619266
>>15619216
also this.
>give the player many options to distract, kill, manipulate or blind guards
A very important point. Monaco does this, there's lots of tools or ways to bypass guards, alarms, security cameras and dogs.
Levels get increasingly harder and harder so you have to make clever use of your items, timing and wits.
4b6b9a No.15619268
>>15617397
>nobody thought of that ever before!
>helmets are shit because they are common
Wew.
300m is the only valid critique, I blame consoles for that.
Still a shit MGS game and only a relatively decent sandbox, but that's because of the shit console maps and removed nigglet killing.
pls don't doublepost
b44c70 No.15619271
b44c70 No.15619272
>>15619271
guess we're ok now
621228 No.15619296
>>15619258
who the fuck cares if someone wants to save scum? it's a single player game so let them play how they want. don't tell me you're one of those zoomer faggots who cares about cheevos either. i like save scumming in stealth games because it saves time while you plan out your route for your saveless run. i'm not gonna spend hours running back to the same spot just to get a timing right when i can just save, reload and adjust until that particular part is mastered
5bdb06 No.15619372
>>15616819
Hitman Dos 2019 is planning on that whole instant replay shit with a wide-range of reviewing power to check the mistakes of your runs on the levels.
f098ff No.15619380
In a 3D stealth action game, the way to do it is make it so enemies who see you but can’t catch you ( either because you entered an inaccessible area for them or if you retreated back to the shadows out of sight) should run around to other enemy locations and alert them, and they should be on high alert from then on (with a small chance a comrade might not believe them and doesn’t enter alert)
63c024 No.15619407
>>15616931
I can actually taste my disappointment.
907989 No.15619408
The way Commandos did it. Once you're spotted, the alert level is raised, and you have to deal with more patrols, or the guy who was spotted can be jailed in certain levels, which you then have to go rescue. It doesn't matter in the end because you can still load a save.
6b9553 No.15619768
>>15619296
By save-scumming you're not playing the game anymore. You're playing trial-and-error using saving as a crutch because you suck otherwise and have no improvisational skills.
Savescumming completely sucks the fun out of a game and ruins tension.
14570e No.15619808
Trash pic, OP. I could fine you a gorrilan better Asuka/Rei lewds.
34dc3c No.15620618
>>15616819
>stealth roguelike
You could check out Cogmind, it's approach has a non-omnipotent AI that can be alerted by certain activities (player being caught hacking, killing robots or damaging equipment). So if the player gets seen/goes loud the heat gets turned up. You can apparently go full-combat but as far as I'm aware most people use stealth builds. It's not really my cup of tea at the moment since I'm not big on stealth, but I keep an eye on it because the dev is really dedicated and loves his game.
065686 No.15621128
>>15616819
I've been trying to properly format this for a while now, but I don't think I have my thoughts fully organized, so forgive me if this seems like rambling (which it is.)
The only game I've really done this is Splinter Cell, and I think it's due to psychological reasons. The first is that Sam Fisher is a highly trained Black Ops specialist, so no one knows he exists as a spy in the first place outside Third Echelon. The way the games are presented also influences how I play. Most scenarios are when things are all but FUBAR, and only I, or Sam, can stop it. I'm also directly told that I need to be discrete in some situations even if it's not totally necessary. The way quick-saving and load are integrated in is almost as if it were like a mechanic rather than a tool. Even in situations where the game can continue, like getting stunned when infiltrating that Japanese base in Chaos Theory and waking up to be interrogated, which you can get out of, I found myself reloading because I kept telling myself no killing, no detection, no trace of anything.
The two things that need to change are how the games are presented and that there are opportunities for success after being discovered, meaning that you need to be given options as into how you combat enemies and that you can get captured but escape.
0cc54f No.15624700
>>15619768
What about saving as a checkpoint system opposed to saving every five feet?
f10fdb No.15624721
>>15624684
Delicious pic anon.
>>15616931
Disgusting pic anon.
>>15619768
Fully agreed. As an ex-savescummer it felt like a cheaper experience by doing so.
Now I do an honor bound save scum system where I allow myself checkpoints in safe areas, if I get too frustrated I start over and think over again about my strategy like what >>15624700
suggested.
>>15619408
>>15621128
If only more stealth games were clever enough to do that.
af7bc1 No.15624724
>>15624700
Then you just reload back to the checkpoint when you mess up. Unless there's at least thirty minutes between checkpoints, it doesn't solve the problem of reloading a save and undoing the mistakes you just made being more optimal in the long run.
9d474b No.15624766
>>15616858
Because you can send out your solders to disarm them. Its so easy to do without thinking that you may not ever notice any new tech development. MGSV is mechanically a very impressive game, its core problem is how easy it is. If the maps where modular and not open world maybe the level design could have been more focused to provide a fun challenge. MGSV really needed a hard mode (and multiple save files).
cd83d3 No.15624771
>>15624766
>Because you can send out your solders to disarm them.
You can what. I've never used fire support or supports of any kind. I just sneak around and stealth them all. It's just…. too fucking easy. I never even played around with anything.
9d474b No.15624788
>>15624771
no back at the base you can send out your units to disarm the operations. For example they remove the cameras and helmets etc.
cd83d3 No.15624819
>>15624788
That's even cooler (there are only cameras in one fucking MISSION, and not even in the world map otherwise, which is a goddamn travesty).
2d806a No.15624938
Don't respond to it. Just filter and report.
f674ac No.15624968
Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>15624766
>MGSV is mechanically a very impressive game
2d806a No.15624989
>>15624968
This looks like a UPS delivery in a ancap society.
633c18 No.15624997
>>15624968
>a couple of people being able to break the game makes it not mechanically impressive
Every game in existence has been broken or pushed beyond its limit at some point.
f674ac No.15625013
Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>15624989
Was skullface morally good or bad for hiring mentally retarded?
>hospital assault retards bring RPG's GROM's into the building they're assaulting
>once you can walk again the squad throws a smoke grenade to blind themselves and allow you a free pass
>>15624997
(^:
>AI not returning back to their cycle and being frozen in Place after you have the audacity to make a noise or arouse suspicion is mechanically impressive.
doubly so when mission objective relies on the script being fully executed.
cd83d3 No.15625018
>>15624997
>literally defending this shit
Get the fuck out.
3d35c3 No.15625021
>>15624997
>guards finding sleeping bodies pushes the game beyond its limit
f674ac No.15625051
>>15625018
I can't be bothered to reinstall that piece of shit to webm it but some other "Pushing to the limit"
>wild canines aren't properly programmed to react to you riding a horse, they get very close and just growl at you forever
>12 enemies can be seen, up 12 more will be turned into literal smoke when you're not looking at them, 13th will crash the game
>soldiers will materialize handguns from thin air when you CQC disarm them
>Parking a vehicle perpendicular to the direction a truck or a jeep is driving (for example red brass, a main mission) will cause the driver to SLAM into the obstacle and attempt to drive through it.
>If you don't kill the skulls in "Code talker" enemies will be zombiefied, there's over 100 enemies programmed to be in the mission area, but only 6 or so spawn at any given time
>if you fulton 100 people you won't be able to extract code talker, because the 100 fulton limit per mission is retained from peace walker
>>15625021
Animals that are always in that place too.
Unless he meant throwing smoke grenades to confuse enemy, nobody has ever done that in the history of video games.
cd83d3 No.15625061
>>15625021
Know what would be great? The bodies reacting to the incoming shots with physics. That would cause them to fall away from the direction of the shot, which would let anyone who was near them see where the shot was coming from. Rather than this bullshit of "oh, they have no fucking clue where the shot was from but of course the AI is just magically making its way toward me."
>>15625051
>the 100 fulton limit per mission
Wait, really? Is that only in actual game "missions" or does it apply to the free roam, too? I've gone through an entire map and fultoned everyone at every location before and I never hit the limit. That COULD be because the world is just THAT sparsely populated, though.
f674ac No.15625098
>>15625061
Only that mission.
in Peace Walker the 100 limit was arbitrary number that wasn't reachable without serious autism and farming respawning guards (the only ones I know of are alert reinforcements who have low ranks so why bother.)
it doesn't apply to free roam because in free roam areas beyond 300 or so meters are not loaded.
You can find out the exact amount by calling in a supply drop a kilometer away from your current location and the "ding" noise will play only once the area with your supplies was loaded in.
I remember doing a "eliminate wandering zombies puppets" mission, and a RANDOM ENCOUNTER truck driving by, seeing a puppet and immediately being knocked out, so i picked up one of the puppets, and wanted to tour afghan outposts with a non-lethal WMD but he was auto-fultoned after I drove far away enough.
0931ef No.15625207
>>15625018
>sperging because I pointed out a fact
You first, newfag.
>>15625021
>they didn't account for animals being asleep in the road
And holding a can pushes HL2 beyond its limits, and exploding barrels can do no damage to you in Doom if you stand a certain way. My point stands.
>>15625013
>AI breaks in one way because you slept animals in the road
Replicate it, prove to me that this isn't just a random bug.
2d806a No.15625217
>>15625207
God damn Metal Gear fags are such pathetic cuckolds.
f674ac No.15625282
>>15625207
>the kojima drone compares speedrunning glitch in HL2 done in a specific way or a specific exploit in doom to something you arrive at by utilizing tools commonly available to you basically from the start
now justify >>15625013 both the smoke grenade in a jeep exploit and walker gear behavior (^:
<replicate it
>Do the mission "pitch black" or the rehash,
>press the button, objective #1
>leave the Mfinda oilfield
>launch a grenade/rocket at the tank 2nd objective from the gate
>tranqualize the 2 african wild dogs standing on the road outside.
>???
>profit.
The embed was on PS4, i did it on PC.
if you find someone who has an XBONE it'll probably work there too.
cd83d3 No.15625328
>>15625207
>a fact
But it wasn't, dumb fuck.
3d35c3 No.15625341
>>15625207
>holding a can pushes HL2 beyond its limits
Are you talking about holding an object and repeatedly leaping toward a wall like you're a first-year trying to reach Platform Nine and Three Quarters? Nobody does that on accident, they're doing it to get out of bounds.
0fbd23 No.15625465
>>15625341
He's talking about how AI only target the player's head, so if you hold a can infront of your face and have it in front of an enemy's face he won't fire. Or something like that. It's on youtube.
f674ac No.15625654
>>15625465
What if there's more than 1 enemy shooting?
0fbd23 No.15625701
>>15625654
It only works on one at a time. Most famously on that one turret gunner in the Canals that you have to advance down that long corridor to kill with the cover scattered around.
da6de3 No.15625757
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>15625465
It targets the "camera" or view point of the player which is just a very small object in the game world. And if you cover this small object - let´s say with a tiny can - than the enemy AI technically can´t "see" you anymore. Vid related.
9d81e6 No.15625878
>>15625757
>>15625701
I remember testing this in various situations when I played through the HL2 games a few months ago. In my experience this is only true for mounted Turret AI (it works on the segment in this video as well as the turret in the canals earlier in the game), it doesn't work on normal enemies, even if it's just one. An oversight from lack of playtesting most likely.