/v/ - Video Games

>>15596720

Third option unless the game is designed around using it as a mechanic.

How about when you level you get a choice of multiple gifts, including a full heal, a boost in damage/gold/whatever.

>>15596734

So the Civilization V approach?

>>15596735

If that's really the only game that does it then sure, call it what you like. I just think it's retarded we're over 30 years in with RPGs and I haven't seen a single fucking game do it yet. It just seems so obvious.

>>15596743

That's option 2.

3 is really important for leveling up healers in Fire Emblem.

I guess it really comes down to what the health pool represents, if it's a increase in capacity of health, like your "gas tank" getting bigger then it should remain at the same number value it was before. If the health increase is supposed to represent a higher capacity for taking damage as in the character is tougher and they can handle more pain/damage, or your "gas" becoming more potent or your engine more efficient then it should represent at the same percentage it was before.

I don't see why it would ever be fully restored after a level.

>>15596764

>180/200=90% health

>185/205=90.24% health

No it isn't.

>>15596774

>0.24% difference

Literally a rounding issue and you round down.

>>15596786

It would be 184.5 if you exactly maintained 90% health.

>>15596797

>then you have no option for keeping the difference between current health and max health consistent.

But I do because it's % based.

>>15596805

Round up then my bad.

>>15596805

5 rounds down so the rounding isn't even correct

>>15596720

Despite the autistic arguments about percentages or whatever. The 2nd option is most fair, imo. If you simply gain the extra hp you gain when you level, but it doesn't heal you.

Asheron's Call MMO goes with option 1. It's fine.

Depends on the timing of leveling up. I usually limit level ups to require a long rest at an inn like Wizardry before characters can level up. With a full rest model 1 makes sense. Otherwise I save XP tallying until the end of the encounter. Which model 2 is more adequate as post encounter restores a bit of health.

Otherwise if all leveling is instant then it has to be model 3. Because a work out puts strain on your body and mind that only a rest can recover, if an HP potion or magic won't do.

Spell points always can never be recovered without long rest or items. None of this absorb magic shit.

>>15596835

Practically every MMO does.

First option best option

>>15596760

Probably because it's fucking stupid and a small step away from perk systems.

>>15596858

> and a small step away from perk systems.

You're retarded. Please stop posting.

>>15596835

>>15596849

Sounds like the early model skinnerbox energy/wait model used in mobile games. Get a string of level ups to restore you at max health to keep playing until level 10 then BAM XP needs 1000x more than level 9 to progress. Welcome to the grind.

>>15596868

In older games I imagine it existed solely to keep you from going insane. In newer games I don't see the point since you never die or run out of MP anyway.

>>15596875

That's because in newer MMOs they found out that you can just increase the inconveniences between levels with more roadblocks like making quest objectives between between solo-impossible areas forcing players to grind to overlevel or pay2win.

>>15596905

>increase the inconveniences between levels with more roadblocks like making quest objectives between between solo-impossible areas forcing players to grind to overlevel or pay2win.

What fucking games are you playing? Everything I see is just a snoozefest to max level where the game unofficially begins.

>>15596720

I like option 2 the most, but I want it to be based on percentages rather than raw values. Percentages would make very little difference compared to raw if the increase in HP is very low (like OP's example), but would be more noticeable in games with much greater boosts (relative to existing HP).

Option 1 is for pussies and Option 3 is lame.

>>15596827

>5 rounds down

you stupid?

>>15596937

>5 rounds down

Canada got rid of pennies. Now we have 5, 10, 25, dollar, toonie for coins, and 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 bills.

If a transaction comes to something that isn't a 5 or a 0, and they're paying cash, you have to round to the nearest 5 cent increment. Debit charges are still the same.

>>15596720

>Fairest

>Implying there's necessarily a one-size-fits-all solution for fairness.

Wouldn't that be completely dependent upon the health system's interplay with all of the game's other mechanics?

Dragon Quest style

full refill

>>15596720

Second is fairest. Total HP is meant to describe overall health/toughness, while the state of the health bar is to describe the current condition of said health/toughness.

That said I think HP is a terrible way to gauge the current condition of N/PCs. I'd like to see how a "pain system" would work, IE no way for players to gauge exact condition and some form of screen obscuring based off of current pain.

The "fairest" way is either option 2 or >>15596743. However, it's not necessarily the best way depending on how it works with the game mechanics and/or what "HP" is supposed to represent.

>>15596921

Final Fantasy XI third expansion before the WoWfication.

>>15597157

HP in the old pen and paper days during it's conception are "hit points". They are "how many hits you can take before your character dies". Hit points pretty much says it on the tin. Whoever game up with the idea that HP is "overall health" deserves a swift kick in the balls.

>>15597101

You need to quantify stuff for the sake of clarity. A pain system, people would end up translating it to numbers since you'd need them in your code anyways.

Limbed based health system is pretty good.

>>15597225

I wouldn't consider FFXI a newer MMO.

>>15597033

>getting rid of pennies

Heresy, tbh.

>>15597101

You need to quantify things because you need to use variables or switches for logic gates of some kind, while at the same time determining things like when such and such animations should play, when that "you're X and Y injured" texture replaces the healthy texture, people's reaction to your injuries.

It's much simpler to just go for a limb based health system and some bleeding and internal "you're dieing slowly" mechanics. Like >>15597232 says.

>>15596720

Nothing. Protection should be related to armor level.

>>15597101

Pain is a terrible way to measure someone's ability to keep fighting. Low to moderate level pain stops people from doing things in day-to-day life, but there's a point where pain gets so bad that you can sort of embrace and channel it. That goes double for someone in fight-or-flight mode, which they should be if they're fighting. Someone in that state isn't going to stop fighting until there's something mechanically wrong with their body to a degree that stops function, which is what HP should represent, in my opinion.

>>15597291

That's true, but people like to feel like they're the ones who improved, not their equipment.

>>15597232

>>15597277

>You need to quantify

Of course you do. What I meant was that the end user shouldn't be able to know, at a glance, exactly how close he is to dying.

>limbs

That's what I was thinking with the "screen obscuring". Each limb and torso gets a portion of the screen, with some portions shared between limbs. When an area receives pain it's portion(s) of the screen are obscured based off of intensity. With things like broken limbs and wounds their portions are briefly obscured when they are attempted to be used.

This would accomplish two things; first the exact status of the PC is hidden from the player and second the nuisance of the obscuring would make players question whether or not they really want to suffer the PC's pain in a fight ahead.

>>15597372

> the end user shouldn't be able to know, at a glance, exactly how close he is to dying.

why ?

Your screen thing doesn't look clear enough to me.

>>15597033

Kiwiland got rid of 5c coins a little while ago too though money is the only situation where 5 rounds down.

>>15597225

Maybe so, but realistically the definition has expanded to refer to the concept of health/life in general, presumably because of some later games that had it stand for "Health Points" instead.

>>15597101

>what is numerical abstraction

If realism is your goal it also makes no sense to measure strength, stamina, etc. in exact numbers, but doing so is both useful for game mechanics and more fun in games with stat progression.

>>15597482

Strength and stamina can be related to exact numbers though. You picked basically the only stats that could.

>>15596720

Proportional healing is the best option. No healing is slightly more tedious and has some potential for stupid shit (e.g. characters getting pushed over a low-HP threshold without ever taking damage), but the difference is pretty trivial unless you have a really steep HP curve. Full healing is by far the worst option, it leads to silliness where players deliberately time their level-ups to trigger halfway through the dungeon/battle.

Depends. Whichever makes the game more fun

>>15597523

False, there is no sensible overall strength/stamina number. People are variously strong in different specialties (e.g. weight-lifting vs. boxing punches, marathon running vs. swimming), and even within the same guy doing the same thing, there's huge variation based on a bunch of external and internal other factors. Ask any marathon runner if he'd post the same time on Day X (when he's well rested, hydrated, and fed, and it's pleasantly cool outside) and on Day Y (when he's tired/hungry/thirsty and it's blistering hot/humid). And even that doesn't account for psychological/adrenaline boosts.

Much like health, the "strength" and "stamina" numbers are just rough approximations for the sake of convenience/fun.

>>15597459

I can say with certainty It's at least 1%.

>>15597592

Your statement is not supported at all by your supporting evidence

>>15596734

While the game is a shitfest and shouldn't be played, Bards Tale IV has something like that for savepoints, you can either save or get some free xp. The game is really shit though, it has none of the humor of the series.

I like option 1, but only when the game's challenging.

It's really fucking fun to make a wrong move in a fight and have it spiral out of control, only to level up in the nick of time and getting the health you needed to survive.

I think three is fine because fuck you, go find a potion, rest, whatever. Unless it's some magical bullshit where your body regenerates every time you gain skill. If that's the case, fuck you too, that's retarded.

>>15597459

>hurt torso

>can't see

That's retarded

Full refill because it's so fucking satisfying.

>>15596720

you should lose health because you are slowly dying

>>15596720

If the level up happens automatically, restore HP equal to the gain in Max HP.

If the level up can be put off, do not restore HP. Anything else leads to the player putting off levels until he needs the HP, which isn't fun.

>>15597592

I understand that strength and stamina are not absolute, but the limit can easily be represented as a numerical value.

>>15596720

Between one and two, it depends on the game.

Between two and three, two.

The size of a health bar determines how many mistakes you can make, and how full the health bar is determines how many mistakes you've made. Increasing health means you are increasing the number of mistakes you can make, and so the amount of health you've lost should remain consistent, not the amount of health you have.

In addition to this option three is frustrating. Having 99% health is significantly worse than having 100% health when you level up. At 100% you gain health, but at 99% you don't. What was previously a 1% difference between health values is now a 5% difference, or whatever % value is gained from leveling up. It seems un-intuitive that such a small difference would be immediately significant.

Ok, what if it doesn't increase when you are at 100%? Now it's frustrating. One moment you are at your maximum, then you improve yourself, and now you aren't at your maximum any more. You need to heal to get to your maximum, something usually saved for when you are recovering from mistakes not improving your character.

>>15597459

>>15597033

>debasing your currency to the point where the lesser denominations are worthless and not worth even dealing with

This is fine.

>>15597372

>>15597459

>do you know your current health percent?

You can feel how healthy you are even if it's vague, video games are a visual medium and do not have any feedback that isn't visual or audio. You have to have something that tells you how close you are to dieing or simply ditch having health at all keeping it to a simple situation where everything kills you.

>>15597467

Health would be a lot better as a system, not a variable. As a system health is dependent on a variety of factors: a measurement of injury (hit points or cripple), ailments and disease, hunger, stress, fatigue, etc. There's a lot of variables to assess an individual's health which yields different results based on parameters. I say health wouldn't need to be a program if the player is immersed enough to identify their character's health based on the seeing and comparing all the individual parameters that compose health at one glance.

>>15597578

It all depends on the context of the game. Different games have different rule sets where any three of these can work. I'm personally a fan of leveling up a character after a rest or meditation but I'm old.

>>15597593

That's dangerous anon, don't pick a fight with any rats any time soon.

>>15597683

The torso and the head are the main things you want to protect. It makes sense to me that at least one of them would indicated by the center of the screen.

>>15597807

>video games are a visual medium and do not have any feedback that isn't visual or audio. You have to have something that tells you how close you are to dieing

That's exactly what I'm describing. It just transfers the HP bar to the entire screen and makes things more difficult when you're doing poorly.

>>15596720

The one that gives the most difficulty to the player.

>>15596786

Your fault for creating an ambiguous situation.

>what's the one-size-fits-all solution for this situation?

Thankfully /v/ isn't in charge of making any games.

It depends on the game but having your mp restore to full when you level is a large part of what made Dragon Quest 11 trivial. There is no rationing or planning involved in trying to get through a dungeon now. Autobattle everything, autoheal from menu after fights.

>>15597884

It isnt realistic to have any visual aid at all. Sound effects and alternate animations work well enough with the added benefit of not obnoxiously obscuring your vision. If you need to have a visual indicator then unobtrusive icons on the hud do a lot more for immersion than screen blur.

>>15598388

Oh look it's one of those retards that haven't figured out that things like health bars exist because they give you information you would logically have, like how healthy you are or how tired you are. To take these way and having to rely on something retarded like looking how hunched over your character is, is only immersive in the minds of retards. In reality, if you're hurt, you don't look at how much you're hunching over or something, because you fucking feel that you're hurt. Taking away visual representations of things you should be able to tell only makes it less immersive, because you're no longer the character you control, you're some third party entity trying to figure out how the character is doing.

>>15597884

>That's exactly what I'm describing.

You're describing some dumb abstraction for something, that doesn't need it, and you're suggesting a terrible way to do it which would distract the player and get in the way.

Option 1 ruins any sort of danger you could be in depending on how often you level. A good example is Senran Kagura which relies on you leveling up as a way to consistently heal during battle.

>>15596720

1, but only AFTER the leveling unit is out of combat.

>>15605476

trying too hard to fit in

>>15596724

This.

Depends on game.

>ARPG or hack and slash

Full heal (except maybe status) on level up, this generally makes those types of games flow very well.

>CRPG/Everything else

Gain one hitpoint for each new max hitpoint is the only correct option, i.e. if your dude had 6 out of 10 HP and went to 20 HP, he should now have 16.

Depends on the gameplay

if its like Dragon Quest where mana is scarce, a level up can restore full

if its a ARPG with like 300 levels like Tales of, it can be a skill of low Skill points to toggle on for early game

If it's like Fire Emblem then the third option is better because healers really need the exp

It depends on context.

>gain level

>nothing gained

There, fixed it.

>my experience in combat has reached a new level and I now I fight better

>obviously this means my skin has become resistant to taking damage

But if we're going to have max hp increase in levels regardless, then +1 for "consistent percentage would be best, but apparently OP is too retarded to know what that means".

>>15608406

Experience is obviously also used to represent things like getting physically stronger due to exercise, and it would make sense that growing muscles would make you somewhat more resistant to damage.

>>15608430

Hot Pockets.

The second option, but not for the reason you think.

Health before levelup:

>180/200

>90% of max health

Health after levelup

>184.5/205

>90% of max health

>Rounds to 185/205

For a second example

Health before levelup:

>40/200

>20% of max health

Health after levelup

>41/205

>20% of max health

>Doesn't need rounding in this case, though the game would probably try to round it anyways.

>>15609876

Damn what game was that?

You started off at full power from the previous game and little by little you give up more of your power, by the end of the game you're really weak…and I don't remember the rest.

No it's not metroid prime.

>>15596724

This is okay when the mechanic is levelling up during a long rest

>>15609904

Sounds like this:

http://roguebasin.com/index.php?title=A_Quest_Too_Far

>>15610058

that is a pretty good idea, do you have more?

>>15610058

oh god this is what games will look like in 5 years.

why did I ever like this shit?

>>15610058

>worst option isn't free

You'll never rake in the shekels like that.

The third option and you should have to train for a couple weeks to perfect your new skills.

>>15610117

but goy don't you want to level up

>>15610117

>not making the best option free for the first use

Drug dealer tactics lad.

>>15609904

Monty python and the holy grail? (That one minigame where you need your score to go down)

Nethack? (Since if you level up too fast without putting on good gear, stronger monsters spawn and kill you)

>>15596720

2 or 3. 1 I've definitely abused way too often in games that have it

>>15620158

>max HP goes down when you level up

>>15620191

>game becomes less challenging as you progress

The middle option is the best if you want to maintain the suspension of disbelief.

But if the game is already heavily abstracted you should choose whatever best compliments the rest.

>>15620195

That sounds fucking retarded. What a stupid concept, you fat faggot.

>>15596720

The 3rd one. Whatever you get from levelling up (skill points, upgrades, etc.) is already benefit enough.

>>15620469

Exactly, that's why I don't understand why would you argue for it.

>level 20 stats: 5 STR 8 AGL 7 STM 16 INT 16 SPR

>level 70 stats: 1 STR 26 AGL 1 STM 24 INT 24 SPR

Good thing he dies before becoming too much of a burden, as all old people should.