/v/ - Video Games

All the Ultima games are bad and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Some of my favorites are the King's Field series, Etrian Odyssey, and The Dark Spire.

For the most part, the genre migrated to handheld titles, the psp has tons if I recall correctly.

>>15525695

Teh reason people think of those when you say CRG is because there's an appreciable difference between CRPG and dungeon crawler. Dungeon crawlers can be considered a subset of CRPG, but sometimes they aren't (King's Field among others)

In UU, EotB, and earlier Wizardries you were largely on a very linear path; solve the traps and puzzles, kill the monsters on the floor, get your ass to the stairs. No matter how complex the maze, this was pretty much the pattern (UU's diplomacy mechanics notwithstanding).

Eye of the Beholder and Ultima Underworld bear the least resemblance to CRPGs overall, the former being a semi-frantic time meter management game in combat, and the latter being the forerunner of FPWRPGs a la Elder Scrolls.

And before you counter with the RTWP systems of the Infinity Engine games, you can issue commands while paused and you don't have to micromanage individual actions to make sure everyone's attacking

Might & Magic is the closest to a proper CRPG in your list, consisting of a large explorable world without the need to worry about dungeons until you were ready for them, and having combat that would properly wait for you (whether of the random encounter or present in the environment sort, depending on the game). Indeed, I would say it falls squarely into the CRPG category, even in the most recent of entries, accounting for the similariy of early Ultima as well as comparing it to D&D Gold Box games

For modern dungeon crawlers, try the Etrian Odyssey series (DS & 3DS), Legend of Grimrock, Might & Magic X (your entertainment value may vary), Black Tower (DS), the PicDun series (DSi & 3DS. It's like picross meets dungeon crawl), Elminage (various systems, but I have it on 3DS) or Fighting Fantasy: The Warlock of Firetop Mountain (DS)

>>15525749

That's a nice taste. However when nips try to make such games they barely go Dark Spire or Kings Field ways, and mostly its just anime girl pictures everywhere. Reminds me Elminage series and Stranger of the Sword City also trying out darker themes despite being japanese.

>>15525753

>Black Tower

shit, I meant Dark Spire. Fuck you, Steven King

I think you're confusing the difference between a classic CRPG and blobbers. Eye of the Beholder is certainly more a proto-blobber.

I enjoy Dungeon Hack for it's destilled form.

Where does Brandish stand as a dungeon crawler? I really dug that type of game.

>>15525695

>Where did all games of this genre gone?

Japan

West is all lootfest gook clickers or glorified VNs and nobody can design a level to save their lives.

>>15525695

I find it very hard to enjoy those classic dungeon crawlers at all. Real time action combat has spoiled me. I'd love to try a real-time non-grid-based dungeon crawling game though.

>>15525799

>blobber

That's a term that only rpgcodex uses, most everyone else calls them dungeon crawlers or sometimes DRPGs or Wizardry clones.

>>15526933

UU and King's Field are like that.

>>15528918

>DRPG

I've never heard that term before, but I like it

>>15526933

you need to play Might and Magic 6 and 7.

Because when all you do is solving puzzles and killing shit, it's not much of a role playing game.

>>15530243

not everyone gets endorphins from winning and need an actual challenge to be engaged.

>>15530407

Actually if you don't get endorphins from winning, you might want to check your testosterone levels.

>>15530389

Right, if it doesn't have a handful of meaningless dialogue options shoehorning your characters in the developers intended direction it isn't a roleplaying games. Adventurers going on an adventure, braving dungeons, and killing things is completely not playing their role. They could instead be finding a lost cat for important NPC #558 to be nice because they are good, or for the money because they are evil.

>>15525695

Any tips on map drawing? Im paranoid about starting making a map in wrong spot and running out if space on paper to draw it all. I never know if the map for example will go deep to the west, or maybe south.

>>15525725

>All the Ultima games are bad and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Spoken like a real faggot that never killed all the niggers in Ultima 7 and had to restart the whole game because one of the niggers had a required quest to win. I've been waiting 20+ years for another RPG that lets me commit genocide with actual in-game repercussions.

There are some good "crawlers" on PCE CD-ROM. They even have good soundtracks.

>>15530518

>he forgot the part in Wizardry 6 where you rescue L'Montes' beagle puppy

>>15535730

But nobody has said either of the things you are quoting. Perhaps the voices in your had are arguing again.

>>15525725

1-7 are good.

4 deserves a proper remake.

7 should've been remade for a touchscreen platform (the DS would have been perfect).

>>15525695

>Ultima Underworld, Eye of Beholder, Might and Magic and Wizardry games as CRPGs. For whatever the reason.

They were released before they were born (1996).

>>15535702

Don't bother. Just download the complete maps online.

>>15535702

It's hard to avoid that. All you can really do is make your best guess for positioning and possibly copy it over to another piece of paper if goes too far in one direction.

The worst thing is teleporters because you have no idea where they've taken you in relation to the rest of the map.

>>15535896

It's like you don't even want to have fun.

>>15535702

There are some (often shitty) programs that will automap old dungeon crawlers if you set them up. A lot of the older games will have set sizes and coordinates for their maps (like 20x20) and ways to determine what room you are in on a particular map (such as 1n2e.) The ones that don't you will either have to just struggle at making a map via redrawing if you find out it got fucked up or look up the maps.

>>15535724

Actually I've only played a bit of Wizardry 6 as while I enjoy some of the improvements the series makes from that point on I really don't like the race/class/combat changes a whole lot. I'd rather have generic fantasy fare instead of a bunch of furries and I particularly don't like scifi elements added in (such as in 7 and 8.)

>>15535910

O man, i haven't thought about teleporters.

Automap is such a blessing. but not every crawler has that

>>15535918

I probably would have been annoyed by the added space alien stuff, too, if I had started the series at the beginning. But anyway, the part where you save the guy's dog is right in the first area of Wizardry 6. It's one of the first problems you solve.

>>15535984

Well I believe I only played long enough to map the first floor, second floor, and b1 of the castle at the beginning. I ended up playing some other game and not going back at the time.

>>15536015

Thats where it is. B1.

>>15538515

That's pretty impressive, considering the limitations.

This seems like the kind of game ripe for an indie development (game dev's first game) and I wonder why we haven't seen a lot more brilliant releases.

>>15539818

>Conquer Challenges

That's exactly what he's saying. God Mode's fun, but only for like 20 minutes tops. Then you want to go back to having actual challenges to conquer.

What dungeon crawlers have more interesting layouts beyond square rooms? I know the PS2 Wizardry games had curved hallways and stuff.

>>15540867

It needs to be something that can be gridded out on paper unless you have one of the newer ones that automap.

>>15540889

>not having a protractor

>>15541397

>that UI

straight outta current year

I have to recommend the horrorsoft Elvira games, which sort of includes Waxworks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd-cJUuU5mo

Here's a link to the deaths from Elvira 2, I didn't embed because of Kiketube but also I have no idea what to use since Hooktube.

>>15538333

The new game is good though apart from the optimization, the combat system really makes it, as well as the companions.

>enemy charges attack

>levitate him behind one of his allies so he unloads it on them

>using my warriors to line up enemies to put them on the end of wringnecks dick

>using crux's spells to set up free mana and more spells

>can literally casts spells for no opportunity cost and spend my time raping enemies

>combine that with bards ability to reduce cooldowns and can cast further spells

It's really nice with some similarities to chess, but better than most turn based grid based combat systems and much better than previous games, also the writing is pretty good in many parts especially the companions

>the deus vult tier paladin constantly belittling other cultures and shitting on your non human team mates

>the forest priestess asking the paladin to wrestle in private

Pretty good stuff

The art for the remaster of The Bard's Tale is complete shart, even though things like smooth 3d environments are good, too bad you still have to grind through the mess of menus to play the game. I think they could have done a better job, just needs a good director

>>15543665

Thankfully nothing you said cuts to the core of the games mechanical systems, and it's not that InXile can't optimize the game, it's that hey are a horde of lazy niggards that wanted to get a product out, which is a shame because it's a pretty good dungeon crawler and will suffer because of this.

The Bard's Tale's protag was actually pretty good, I guess you could say that The Bard's Tale IV is it's opposite, the game runs like shit, the protagonist is bland, but more akin to previous titles but the core gameplay is good, unlike The Bard's Tale.

After the game has been unfucked it should be worth playing, Optimization is the key issue preventing the game to be as good as it could, the others are surface level and don't impact the playability or gameplay, and as I said the actual companions are good.

I can into Wmb and M4p, I just can't be bothered, and no I don't know what the new embedding site is, I know how to Embed

AND HOW TO RED TEXT

I will space however I like to space thank you.

Are there any of these which haven't aged like piss? I want to go on a big grand adventure but I don't want to hack away at 300 monsters all lined up in a row with no reaction to anything I do to them.

>>15543740

I guess you only played the tile movement turn based types, Ultima Underworld 1+2 is entirely real time and doesn't use tile movement. If you hate the UI then there is nothing I can recommend you. and if you think 300 enemies lined up to be hit is a crawler problem you've never played really old FPS games that wasn't Doom onwards, I still hate bees because of this one fucking game I played as a child where it was endless lines of bees in a maze hallway

>Every time someone says the word "CRPG" people remember Fallout 1, Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment.

First game i remember is The Elder Scrolls™:Skyrim™ Game of the Year Edition

>>15543723

>not being able to customize your party members

To what extent do the character creation and character progression systems not meet your stringent standards?

>>15543810

>>15543665

re-read my previous post;specifically the part in

REDTEXT

>>15543838

So you're mad that you can't make your party of custom characters cuties or something, I guess that's just a limitation of the character portraits they provide.

Aww shit nigga, I fucking love CRPGs and Dungeon Crawlers. One of my first was the Eye of the Beholder trilogy. Also Menzoberranzan was the one I played most as a kid before I got Neverwinter Nights (although that's a different type of game, right?).

Always nice to see what would otherwise be thought to be defunct genres show up.

How's Elminage,Stranger of Sword City and Labyrinth of Refrain Coven?

Isn't Bard's Tale from 2004 just a spoof on RPGs that pokes fun of the irrational quest formula where everyone in town has a random errand they need you to run? Didn't Bard's Tale just do what Dink Smallwood already did?

I hate creating my own entire party. What's the point if they're all equally rounded as a whole?

>>15543925

>Elminage,Stranger of Sword City

pretty dry but serviceable

>Labyrinth of Refrain Coven

A decent game with a god awful localization.

They're all easy to pirate, don't bother buying them

>>15544546

What's the point of picking different skills for one character when they're all rounded as a whole?

Complete indie game, think it was ported too, but there's a game called Paper Sorcerer that, while not being completely true to the dungeon crawling style, is close and has turn based combat that is definitely influenced by it. You're basically a sorcerer/ess with minions of your choice that act as various classes for your party (and you yourself can branch into more physical or more magical subclass too). It's simple, but satisfying for that turn based, exploration of one big dungeon with many floors, kinda deal. Bosses were satisfyingly hard too. You can't grind for exp etc as it's one of those where once the mobs are dead, they stay dead - I'd recommend it if you can get it cheap or otherwise.

>>15544591

>all [not equally] rounded as a whole

Variety.

>>15544674

Well then, with all due respect, you're just a retard talking out of his ass. Because games that allow you to create parties, provide more races, class, and skill combinations than there are slots for. this means they provide as much (if not more) variety for your build.

>>15544690

>his ass

If every role is filled by a character in the party, it renders character creation meaningless. With an individual character you're forced to forego some things in order to specialize in others, thus creating meaningful variety.

>>15544714

Every character in the party is a character you created. In these games, the protagonist isn't your build. The party is your build. It's almost as if you've never played these games. Especially since ever role isn't covered by the party. You have a limited number of slots, you have to decide which roles to forgo.

>>15544714

I rly think its is a matter of taste.

I pref to create a whole party, because I have control over it, I dont have to deal with half assed story driven retarded npcs that can join your party.

Still, there is a middle ground, like in eye of the beholder (or menzobarranzan), where you create 4 (2) and the other 2 slots can be filled with npcs you find along the way.

Also with sole character and joinable npcs, its a bitch when the npc has to leave for story reasons, suddenly you're without a tank, because you made yourself into a glasscannon.

>>15544714

No one forces you to make a party with a tank, DPS and healer. Hell, I've had the most fun in some games by making a DPS only glass cannon party.

Even with that aside, 9 out of 10 times you get for instance 5 slots and have 3 or 4 roles to fill, so one or two roles are going to be optimally filled with others less so.

>>15543765

I've played plenty of old FPS games. None of them put 60 wizards in a room who just wander round aimlessly until you attack them.

>>15545165

Legend of Grimrock is a good starter, it's simplistic, there's all kinds of tooltips to explain how it works, and there's character skills/abilities. A really advanced example is Eye of the Beholder, which is AD&D2E and has none of these things (although it does have spells).

>>15545225

yeah i was thinking that myself, cheers

>>15545253

lel did you see the bitch fit mark was having on the codex? threatened to leave the forum and shit, game does look good though

>>15545296

>codex

No I don't willfully expose myself to cancer. Was it hilarious? Are there screencaps?

>>15545165

If you wanna go retro, anvil of down, if more modern than ye, probably grimrock, or the quest

>>15545253

>set off security in clock control room

>pack of robots come in

>~1k hp per enemy

>immune to impaling

>immune to all sources of CC I've had on my hands

>each one did 8 attacks in a round

>can attack any row

>max level armorplate runs out 1.5 rounds in

<party is level 9 because of great exp progression

<gorillion of tries later finally get them to not do over 30 attacks to the two back rows because chars die in 2-3 hits

<this is actually pretty much a standard encounter on that map

<boss fight for one of the endings was a cakewalk compared to this

When V2 is coming? Will it make stats other than STR and SPD worthy of investing into?

>>15545963

I'm sure Cleve will make everything perfect in about 40 years. By the way, have custom portraits and the manual ever been released?

>>15530243

Because back in the days the amount points you put into stats determined the difficulty of the game. I remember a few games that reduced your stats if you chose higher difficulty.

>>15530243

The original purpose of the free character editor was so you could import a favorite from the p&p d&d

Pool of Radiance does some thing interesting with it: if you use the editor to max out stats on any character in your party, the game makes the encounters significantly harder

>>15543926

The fact that you can't create a custom party off the bat is a fault but it isn't significant, most importantly I think it's great that you aren't forced to create a complete party with no knowledge of the games mechanics, although it is a limitation that subsequent playthroughs when you understand the mechanics you can't create a fully custom party off the bat, although I think that's a planned feature in a coming update

>in a coming update

That's really the games core problem.

>>15546780

danm dude, quality post beyond the labyrinth looks really cool. Should I emulate it on citra or whip out my n3ds?

All CRPG's are essentially garbage.

>>15546805

So are you.

>>15545165

Madou Monogatari

Why would anyone play a game like this without lolis pantsu oshiri or oppai?

>>15547138

I'm on the fence about some party building mechanics now because I don't want to waste my free time that I have doing RNG dicerolls. At this point I'd just settle for point buy all the way or just give me an abridged Alter Ego style game of life that ends at the point where all of you gather for the intro proper.

>>15547138

At least one of those games (Labyrinth of Refrain) has you creating more characters all throughout the game and starts you off with an example party. Funnily enough it's kinda shit at tutorializing, with almost all information only available to you once and often coming considerably too late in the game, but with relatively clear mechanics and how easy it is to get new characters up to level, plus how important gear is compared to levels, it's a pretty damn painless experience for newcomers like me.

If anyone's interested, there is a website http://www.dungeoncrawlers.org/ which lists dungeon crawlers

>>15547510

<go to dos section

<only lists a dozen games

Pretty incomplete.

I remember a RPG game called natuk 2. That I really enjoyed.

But if you search for it you just get indian stuff.

>>15547592

yeah I dont know wtf, i think some games must be missing the dos tag

>>15547138

That's surface level shit at best that mostly aids in replayability, it says nothing about the games core mechanics, the writing, the exploration, the level design or any of the other things I praised, the game on it's own merits is good, and that's in spite of it's shortcomings like optimization, which will hopefully be fixed in coming updates.

>>15547603

is Brandish real time or is it similar to mystery dungeon and other roguelikes?

>>15525695

might and magic 7 was really good.

8 is more of the same.

it had a complex alchemy system, where you could mix potions over several iterations. some could blow up in your face.

also almost entirely free roaming, you could own your own castle which improved during the game based on quests.

lots of interesting classes, though you could take any skill, it was better to specialise.

ultimas were good. even alkabeth is still interesting as a mobile game.

although people will disagree, most of 8 and 9 were good too.

bugged and restricted compared to 6 or 7, but as games, fun and with a lot of detail.

ultima 9 was beautiful and pioneered true 3d rpgs, day/night cycle, weather, constellations in the sky, amazing sunrisrs and sunsets, huge world, which you could travel across fully, only dungeons were separate levels. the people who had fun with it and explored it fully enjoyed it a lot. none of you will remember 'ocean travel without a boat', but people used the physics system's peculiarities to build endless bridges and cross the oceans and mountains in the game.

if origin/EA hadn't been such cretins, 8 and 9 would have been very different. even with their interference, both are good and memorable games with their own style.

>>15545253

Dungeon Lords is the real sequel to wizardry.

The most amazing 3d super open world experience ever!!!!!!

Also known as the biggest piece of boiled shit I've ever tried to play. Bugged fuckpile with no merit whatsoever, and the magical inclusion of endlessly spawning swarms of dogs, and the barest empties ugly world ever conceived of.

The guy should have employed an artist, a programmer, a designer and a conceptual artist, instead of making it all in linux using free tools over a few weekends.

>>15543740

arc fatalis

gothic 2

I'm replaying the stranger of sword city anyone got that zip with all the portraits and the guide to make more?

>>15547630

>will probably end up like Tokyo Xanadu

what happened with that?

are cRPGs and Dungeon Crawlers the only genre of games that this boards talks about without devolving into shitposting? And there's some good discussion here.

>>15554756

>what happened with that?

"We want the Persona audience", simple dungeons and a god awful localization for an already bland story

Grimoire and Legend of Grimrock 2 are the only ones I got into.

I tried Lands of Lore 1 and Wizards and Warriors but found the constant respawning trash mobs too tedious to deal with. Wizardry 7 and M&M3 are both too dated for me and the latter seemed too directionless at the start. Stranger of Sword City just had too much dialogue and tutorial shit to get through and was painfully bland, and Persona 3 is just shallow and repetitive (but I still put up with it for several hours because Yuko is an absolute cutie).

I greatly prefer Grimoire over LoG2 but I only played it for like 30 hours and maybe like <20% of the game. I want the dev to actually finish the damn thing before I play it any further. Even after the V2 release (whenever that happens) I probably still have to wait for him to polish the inevitable issues. I dislike LoG2's square-dance combat, and Grimoire's level design is way more interesting and dense with unique stuff and I like its style of random enemy encounters + safe havens.

>>15525695

King's Field 1-4, Shadow Tower, Shadow Tower Abyss, and Eternal Ring come to mind for me. I can't get enough of those games.

>>15554802

<little to no political poz

<little to no faggotry

<the vast majority of good titles made before the cancer set in

<generally older group discussion since the majority of gen z's can't get past the graphics/difficulty

<not popular enough to attract too many anons

That's a good foundation for shitpost free discussion.

>>15554756

Unlike games from the late 90's and forward, the Oblivibabies haven't been able to try the first 30 seconds of the game and fail. No, with DOS games, the Oblivibabies couldn't even figure out how to install it. So, they don't even have a jumping-off point where they can pretend to know what they're talking about when they go off on a rant about "dated gameplay" and "broken mechanics" and "unintuitive AI."

>>15547757

Nevermind the DOS tag it's missing entire sections of the most well known series from the PC section. I don't know what standard they have but it's clearly lacking.

the Divinity series is mandatory. but only the first two are real dungeon crawlers.

>>15535720

Morrowind????

>>15559712

Morrowind breaks the 4th wall to tell you that you fucked up and should load a previous save.

>>15551744

DUNNNNNGGEEOOONNNN LOOOOORRRRRRRDDDSS

What's the best modern Diablo style dungeon crawler?

>>15559155

I wonder why there wasn't more than one Dungeon Hack. It's very to the point, even just some new levels would have been nice.

>>15560073

Diablo isn't a dungeon crawler.

>>15560116

Isometric dungeon crawlers are one of the core dungeon crawler types.

>>15560121

First according to those selling isometric RPGs and slapping the dungeon crawler label on them and it sticking because of standard-less niggers.

>>15560116

>Game was designed as a graphical version of Rogue

>Not a dungeon crawler

>>15560165

It actually was. Game being real-time is actually a fucking hack they did in an afternoon after they got informed people were into action games. Not even fucking joking.

>>15560165

The game calculates movement and attacks just as a turn based game would, but there's no pausing between rounds. Think about it you dumb fuck.

>>15560174

The only things it has in common are generic RPG elements. It is nothing like Rogue.

>Game being real-time

>>15560182

Do you faggots think that turn based is the only criteria for a roguelike?

>>15560151

>>15560165

It is a dungeon crawler, that doesn't necessarily make it a roguelike.

>>15560174

>>15560182

If anything, Diablo could be considered a roguelite, but it lacks many core elements of roguelike gameplay.

>>15560187

Diablo isn't turn based no matter what convoluted logic people useto determine if it is.

It isn't even semi-turn based like some final fantasies where you have to wait the character to wait for a set amount of time to take it's turn but other turns may start in real time while you have to wait/choose an action.

The thread title is dungeon crawlers. Which Diablo falls into no matter how much autism you throw at it. You explore randomly generated dungeons.

>>15560174

>>15560205

Diablo started out development as a graphical version of Rogue, it got drastically changed and simplified and permadeath made optional after the shift to real time gameplay mid development I mentioned earlier.

Calling it a roguelite is a pretty apt descriptor.

It's definitely a dungeon crawler regardless.

>>15560241

>moving goalposts

I didn't bring up roguelike. It is actually poetic though since Diablo being mislabeled a roguelike is similar to it being mislabled a dungeon crawler.

By the rationale of >>15560222

Oblivion is a "dungeon crawler" because you explore dungeons in it too.

>>15560266

It's right in the post I replied to you baiting faggot.

>>15560151

>>15560253

Oblivion is a dungeon crawler if you want to play it that way. Just walk to dungeons and dive in over and over.

>>15560271

>Oblivion is a dungeon crawler if you want to play it that way.

Okay, so practically every RPG is a dungeon crawler now.

>>15560285

No. There are core aspects of a dungeon crawler like the loot system.

>>15560271

It would be if the dungeons weren't so shallow that you finish them in ten minutes tops, not to mention that some are locked to quests and you can't even get through them until you are on those quests. They aren't really dungeon crawler-tier dungeons, they're just interior levels.

>>15560311

Dungeon crawlers predate "loot systems" and many only have loot found from treasure chests or the like.

>>15560307

It was originally a derogatory term for overly combat focused tabletop rpg games.

>we've spent the last month crawling through this dungeon

>>15560307

>he never played as the lizard man

The bard's tale remaster is really good. It gets rid of a lot of the tedium from the original like adding the gold and item pools. The save anywhere thing kinda makes it a little too easy but you can just work around that, though i do have save points right outside dungeons.

>>15560898

They self published and just recycled NISA mediocre script. No clue if NISA is getting royalties or if Experience just bought it for a flat rate

>>15560930

knowing how DESPERATE is NISA i bet they went for a quick deal