/v/ - Video Games

>is there a different and more intelligent way to design exp collecting other than that?

Tie experience with skills leveling like Morrowind, perhaps? And with a twist where you receive points in a skill depending on how you manage and complete a quest.

>>15200321

Sounds like you prefer walking simulators since you don't jive with a core tenet of RPG-like progression.

>>15200321

>because they don't fit the character you're playing or are simply boring

I remember a quest like that in Baldur's Gate where you had to steal a telescope from the museum. You could refuse, but there was no alternative, so of course I did it because I wanted the experience points.

>>15200321

>what about something like OG Deus Ex, where experience points were tied to story progression (so mostly everyone got the same points regardless of how they played (yeah I know about exploration points but those were minimal and the bigger reward was finding a useful item))?

Dark Messiah did something similar, that way you didn't get screwed over for sneaking past enemies instead of fighting. Of course Dark Messiah is not really a role-playing game, so the comparison doesn't fit perfectly.

The reason that CRPGs suffer fron levelling issues is because they're often trying to imitate D&D, and D&D was not meant to be an imitation of how we progress in real life. Personally I think that the idea of progression in video games needs to be re approcged so that there can be satisfying progression which also makes logical sense and doesn't turn into grinding. TW3 is a good example of my gripes with RPG levels. It's open world, but if you go somewhere that you're not supposed to go then you'll get assraped so hard by high level enemies that you'll shit through your mouth. The levels don't do anything but block the player from content that they aren't supposed to play yet. The level 1 bandit with a rusty sword and his level 18 cousin with his rusty sword look identical but for the digits above their heads.

>>15200321

>most of these games are designed in a way that require you to do 85% of quests in order to be competent

This is way worse with modern "rpgs"!

In old games doing every single quest would make you a fucking gamebreaking demigod. Ergo doing every jackshit wasn't necessary to beat the story. You can go on explore and doing shit for npc if you want, but only if you want to have more fun. which leads to us the conclusion of that old rpgs were full of content!

Now let's see nowadays "rpgs". Barren as fuck. Real choice doesn't really exist. Difficulty means grind, so you can only go foward by the most cheap and uninteresting way. if for some reason you feel more interested in the game world than you are double ass fucked because the mandatory xp grind there are no bonus quests, you can't explore shit outside the story and game wolrd is nothing but a fucking tunnel. An empty as hell tunnel.

The biggest problem with RPGs is the combat, IE: the actual gameplay for those faggots who believe reading walls of text is gameplay. Very few RPGs in have good combat, and those that do are usually ARPGs, or games with RPG elements. For fuck's sake, if puzzle games with RPG elements tend to have better combat than actual RPGs, there's something wrong.

>>15200702

This. I can't into turn-based shit. You need a happy medium between the two though. ARPGs typically don't account for stats and builds in relation to a lot of things. A warrior should be better at blocking and dodging, but every class and build can block and dodge equally well, the warrior can just deal more flat physical damage. There must be a way to do an ARPG but still keep some of the bulk of cRPGs with stats.

>>15200321

>is there a different and more intelligent way to design exp collecting other than that?

From what I heard, Underrail, had an option in which you could either earn xp through killing or through exploring(finding secret paths/opening chests) which would benefit a thief/diplomat type character.

I will derail your thread a bit to vent out my frustrations with a lot of JRPGs and even CRPGs, and that is item progression, and to be honest I am not sure if there is even a solution. You start off in the beginner town, get beginner equipment(helmet, armor, shoes, sword), and when you reach the next town where you can buy the next tier of equipment, then you reach the next town and buy the next tier of equipment, and so on, until you reach the final town and buy the final tier of buyable equipment(you will get some special equipment through the main quest). From a gameplay perspective is a bit more convenient, to have the latest tier of equipment in the latest town you have visited in the linear story, but there is no reason why the backwater village in the middle of the desert that barely has contact with the outside world, has better equipment than the technologycally advanced mega-city, just because you visit the village much later in the story, than the city. It also makes the the experience a bit artificial, since when you reach the new city you most likely have enough money to buy the next tier of equipment from the random encounters and by selling the current equipment, so why even have a shop? just upgrade the player's equipment when he reaches a certain point in the story/levels enough.

There are games, like Phantasy Star 1, where you have some late game equipment in the starting town, but don't have the money to buy it, and all the other cities have a mix of leveled equipment, but I can't really say if it's better, other games have just one shop that unlocks better items as you progress through the story or level up(Dragon Dogma or some SMT and Persona games), but it still is as artificial, and no saying that they just got a shipment of new items, doesn't excuse it. Some games try to remedy this, by having accessories with different buffs, so you at least have a choice of equipment, that isn't just choosing between +10Def helmet or a +20Def helmet. Spells also have this same problem, where once you reach a certain level and have enough mana, you will have no reason to use Fireball, when you can use Advanced fireball, SMT is also guilty of this, especially since you have a limited amount of abilities during combat.

I guess the only solutions would be to have cities with a mix of low level and high level equipment(Phantasy Star 1, World of Xeen), but that could become extremely annoying if you have to keep backtracking though different cities just to buy a better pair of shoes(World of Xeen, gave you teleporters in each city), have each item and spell unique, and make battles into puzzles, rather than fights of attrition, but at that point you change the genre completely or have weapons and armors that upgrade with the player, but at that point you won't have equipment shops, just item shops and maybe upgrade shops(blacksmith). Honestly I am not even sure if these are good solutions, and I do like the convenience of having the next set of equipment when reach the city, as artificial as it is, plus if every game was liek I suggested, then some other anon would complain, that they all follow my gimmick, instead of the current one.

>>15200321

My 3 main problems with crpgs are the clunky isometric perspective, having to manually assign stat points, and western devs focusing more on dialogue trees instead of, y'know, crafting fun gameplay. For these reasons, crpgs are unenjoyable games.

This is why jrpgs are superior.

>>15200819

Fallout 4 is the game for you

>>15200818

>item progression

I don't think devs will ever try to attempt to "fix" that, since it's what the userbase love, the dopamine release from getting stronger. Maybe have some strong foes in early game with good equipment. Let's say that 90% of players wouldn't beat said foes but the rest can do it with crafty stuff. Kinda like getting Beta from Midgar Zoolom in FF7 early

>>15200321

Must be why I loved Kingdom Come Deliverance's progression system, because quests don't reward exp but can net you npcs who will teach you tips and tricks or a skillbook or better equipment, and you gotta use your skills to level them up. Really would like games to stop using arbitrary levels and exp in their games to denote if a fight should be avoided or not.

>>15200321

Everytime I ask for recommendations on difficult RPGs I always receive responses for CRPGs for the most part and I honestly just don't enjoy them that much, I can see their appeal but I like games that also demand mechanical skill, not juts technical, more immersive IMO.

Any recommendations that aren't too recent? My computer is aging and I don't really feel like upgrading for the time being.

>but the reality with the vast majority of CRPGs is that exp points are

way too plentiful and the game "punishes" you for doing a lot of side quests by taking away any challenge whatsoever.

That's a huge problem I'm having with everything that has a leveling system.

>>15201833

Maybe Gothic 1 and 2?

>>15203498

Already played them.

Also made the mistake of going for III because I listened to some anons telling me that "oi mate this cut content restoration and bug fixing patch totally makes the game worth playing" yeah how about no.

>>15200321

>but the reality with the vast majority of CRPGs is that exp points are precious and sparse

No, it really depends on the game. Some games let you grind it out pretty easily, and some games make experience points a finite resource.

Your equipment is more important than your stats in Fallout 2, and since you can kill shopkeepers for their loot or just steal your money back, you can easily steamroll the early game.

>is there a different and more intelligent way to design exp collecting other than that?

There's a few ways I've seen games try. Oblivion does a lot of level scaling so you can beat the game at level 1. Some action games with RPG elements give you everything you need to beat the game at the start and everything you gain from leveling up is just a bonus. A lot of games give you all the XP you'll ever need doing the main quest. Witcher 2 makes sidequests pointless other than for role-playing since their rewards are shit and the main quest XP alone will take you about 1 level under the cap. Some games allow you to make up for the lack of levels with equipment and items.

>>15200702

>>15200755

Fuck you both. Divinity OS is turned based and has amazing combat.

>>15204004

Amazing for a WRPG maybe.

Exp and levels are a shit thing. Guild Wars is the only CRPG that's really done it right. A fast level cap that's really only there for the sake of being a tutorial, after which exp just gives you skill points to spend on getting more skills. Skills are the real meat and potatoes of the game. Everything you can do is determined by which combination of skills you equip, and progression is sometimes determined solely by hunting down and acquiring the right skills. There are some small shitquests to do for various NPCs, but the main missions are all huge events that differ pretty significantly from each other, then they have regular old school dungeons on top of those that are even bigger events than the missions. The best part of it all is you're actively encouraged to change your skillset constantly to suit your needs, or even change your second profession and re-roll all your attributes for almost no cost at all.

I really wish there were single-player games as good as Guild Wars. I would even pay for an offline version of the game that I could play after the servers eventually shut down, there's so much PvE content and they give you fairly competent CPU companions to party with. There's nothing else quite like it when it comes to theorycrafting and skill building. There's entire wikis dedicated just to character builds.

>>15200321

>handing experience points via doing quests

That's been one of the biggest problems plaguing MMOs since WoW made it popular.

The quests give out so much EXP that they become the main source of it and you end up going from quest to quest doing chores like a nigger instead of grinding killing whatever monster you feel worthwhile with your class or gear or party.

Everyone just does all the same questlines and end up with the same gear and rewards from the quests.

>>15200755

>>15200702

>not liking turn based combat

Gold Box and ToEE are top tier examples of what RPG combat should be

>>15201833

>difficult RPG

Wizardry 4-6

My biggest complaint with f1/f2 is half of the skills being completely useless filler

I just pretend I'm some utilitarian double-crossing opportunist that does as many quests in one playthrough as possible. RPG worlds aren't big enough to roleplay anyway, there's not enough content to go refusing quest offers. Some decent roleplay is only possible in multiplayer, I suppose.

>>15200818

The special xp system in Underrail only prevents getting infinite xp from respawning trash enemies and rewards exploration more, that's it.

>>15211252

panzer dragoon saga is still the peak of the genre

In some cases I'd rather they just drop the whole thing. Not everything needs to be about getting +1's under your belt, but its easy to design and gives people a sense of "progress" that they could otherwise get from just learning how to play the game as they go. Just let me pick a favored style at the start, maybe give items, skins and trinkets as rewards, and let me have at it. Maybe I'll want to do quests for their own sake if you actually make them enjoyable rather than dangling a carrot at the end.

>>15201071

Underrail truly is the only good indie RPG.

>>15200321

>Alternatives to XP from side quests

Reward XP based on reaching story milestones which can include finding specific items in the world.