/v/ - Video Games

Didn't they add a harder game mode that skips the shit walking sections?

You can play on harder difficulties but that's it.

>>15167746

there's Furier Mode which acts like a Hard mode where all bosses have new revamped attacks which are designed to be more difficult, The Chain is actually a respectable boss fight for starters

then you can try getting S-ranks on all bosses if you feel the need to excel

>>15167767

you can just play the bosses only and skip the story entirely if you play on Speedrun Mode

>>15167824

Sounds like they did add some stuff in.

would you say it's worth a purchase, or just a pirate?

>>15167860

Pirate. The gameplay itself is focused around parry shit and borderline QTE's. Kinda fun on first playthrough but the novelty wares off quick on later replays.

>>15167868

gotcha, I appreciate the rundown.

>>15167860

I pirated it first and purchased it after, largely because it is right up my fucking alley and represents what I want to see most out of games. No upgrade or unlock cancer, but the player having a single static moveset whose potential gets fully wringed out by all the enemies you face in the game. Boss rush aside, it very much feels like a Treasure game in this regard. As the game heavily allows speedrunning, being good at the game naturally translates to killing bosses faster. You could play passively and wait to parry everything like a little bitch, or you can lay down some RELENTLESS AGGRESSION and the absolute smackdown, constantly dealing damage and never letting up. The benefit for speedruns of games like these is that they display real skill and don't revolve around abusing glitches or bugs for skips. It's just beating one guy really fast.

I found the visual style appealing and the music is fucking good. Just don't go in expecting something like DMC, but more something like Alien Soldier. The DLC also adds one boss (and another secret boss) which are both really good.

>>15167868

>borderline QTEs

A bit harsh imo. It's just very rhythm and timing centric. I can see how that would make it a less visceral experience that some anons would probably want out of it, however.

>>15167878

well if nothing else it at least sounds like it's worth playing now and isn't nearly as bare bones as it was on release

Was Speedrun Mode not in the game on release?

>>15167954

It always was, though only on Furi mode. Speedrun mode support for Furier mode was patched in later. The only other option to play each boss without story segments inbetween is to play them in Practice Mode, though you had to have played the game in Story Mode at least once to do so.

some people really liked the game, but i thought it was boring. every battle felt tedious and had its own arbitrary rules. the game punishes experimentation and really just wants you to follow the rules. "beat this boss the way we want you to beat this boss"

i really dont understand how people can find enjoyment in that. its not even like a puzzle where you have to figure out a clever way to hurt them. can someone explain the appeal? is it just a quick reflex test?

>>15167883

>It's just very rhythm and timing centric.

It's also incredibly reserved in abilities and is very rigid in the movement. It's as close to making a game full of QTE's without actually having them as you can get. Why people praise it as anything above a 5/10 is beyond me.

>>15167977

What did you try that the game punished?

Just play punch out instead.

>>15167997

>It's also incredibly reserved in abilities and is very rigid in the movement

It's no more reserved than most 90's action games and the bosses that challenged you on it, or even most bosses in what people would consider most good action games. I honestly don't know what you expect here. It's as if you think the game always tells you when you can deal damage and when you should avoid it, whereas you have guys like these who take the game completely by its balls and blast through on their own terms. It sounds to me like it feels very rigid to you because you didn't even try to make the most out of what you had.

>>15167999

for example, there were moments where the game devs "wanted" me to shoot the enemy and hitting the enemy with the sword was possible, but much more difficult, so i wanted to try it, see if maybe it dealt extra damage.

did 0 damage and ended the bosses "window of vulnerability"

tried similar things a few more times just to be blocked, and punished. "no! now is time for timed dodges! no attacking! even if the enemy leaves himself vulnerable! wait for the cue to attack!"

>>15168071

>for example, there were moments where the game devs "wanted" me to shoot the enemy and hitting the enemy with the sword was possible, but much more difficult, so i wanted to try it, see if maybe it dealt extra damage.

>

>did 0 damage and ended the bosses "window of vulnerability"

>

>tried similar things a few more times just to be blocked, and punished. "no! now is time for timed dodges! no attacking! even if the enemy leaves himself vulnerable! wait for the cue to attack!"

I'm not sure what exactly you are talking about here

Generally when a boss is emitting shockwaves or bullets in all directions, it's a bad idea to dash right in the source of all the projectiles and try to strike them with your sword unless you can do it safely

>>15168043

>It's no more reserved than most 90's action games and the bosses that challenged you on it

Well those games often weren't boss rush games either and had more diversity in the gameplay instead of shallow gimmick fights.

>I honestly don't know what you expect here

More abilities. Or if not more abilities more diverse ways of winning the fights outside of the predesignated methods you were given. Or at the very least less parry moments which have infected indie games horribly.

>whereas you have guys like these who take the game completely by its balls and blast through on their own terms.

That doesn't even make sense on a gameplay context. The scale had plenty of abilities that other bosses shared as well. With the only defining feature that made him different being able to go underwater.

>It sounds to me like it feels very rigid to you because you didn't even try to make the most out of what you had.

"The most" being a handful of abilities that don't go far.

>>15168071

I never encountered a time when shooting did damage but the sword didn't. Do you remember which fight it was?

>now is time for timed dodges! no attacking!

Sounds like you tried to hit an enemy while their gold shield was up.

>>15168087

i managed. but the game said "no, he can only be shot at right now" and i dealt 0 damage and it ended my opportunity to hurt him. i only played up until the 2nd (or maybe 3rd) boss and felt no urge to continue.

the game is full of that kind of stuff. the battles are so structured i felt like it was more of a rhythm game than a boss rush game.

>>15168108

it was definitely one of the first 3 bosses. since i stopped playing after that. it was a time when i could have hit them with the bullet, but opted for the sword which had a much smaller window and it did 0.

the gold shield? like when they turn invincible at will? not a fan of that game mechanic either, but atleast its expected. the game really likes to herd you around and make you do exactly what it wants. felt like a rhythm game.

>>15168092

>Well those games often weren't boss rush games either and had more diversity in the gameplay instead of shallow gimmick fights

You mean to imply boss rush games have inherently less diversity? I'm sorry, what? You have games like Alien Soldier, Cuphead, Contra: Hard Corps, Gunstar Heroes, and to a lesser extent most of the rest of Treasure's library which would like to have a word with you. Just what exactly do you expect from 'diversity'?

>More abilities. Or if not more abilities more diverse ways of winning the fights outside of the predesignated methods you were given.

I've just posted a speedrun video which outright skips most of The Scale's attacks. Do the methods involved not constitute as more diverse? You should try playing through the game and then try getting the S-ranks for all bosses to see the difference in playstyle you have learned by then. To me you're only looking at the surface and breadth, where more shit most equals more better, whereas the variety in Furi is derived out of the bosses you encounter which challenge specific parts of your moveset.

>shallow gimmick fights

Just what is a boss to you, anyways?

>Or at the very least less parry moments which have infected indie games horribly.

Oh Christ, it's you.

>With the only defining feature that made him different being able to go underwater

Have you never fought Bernard? Bernard is the true final boss (IMO) who incorporates attacks from every single boss in the game, and the attacks incorporated for The Scale's phase were not the diving, but the trailing bullets and the *it's a hologram*. I don't know where the hell you're looking at.

>That doesn't even make sense on a gameplay context.

A lot of phases in Furi are designed so certain attacks can be skipped if you deal damage fast enough. For example, The Scale might annoy you with his hologram attacks on the 4th/5th phase (I forgot which one), but if you deal enough damage by parrying back enough bullets and seizing enough windows of opportunity to deal a lot of damage quickly, this attack can be skipped entirely. A lot of phases will show new attacks if the boss isn't downed after a certain period of time, with the aim to get you speedkilling faster. Once you realize it, the game provides you with a lot of opportunities to kill bosses faster, just look at any speedrun video. It's not always the case where you have to wait until the boss becomes vulnerable.

>>15168127

That was probably The Line, which is the worst boss in the game. Though I still don't know what exactly you are talking about. You were probably still too late.

>>15168184

>That

all 3 bosses i played did this anon. not just 1 particular boss. i beat all the bosses i played and quit during one of the slow walking segments because i wasnt interested.

can you show me people playing the bosses in different ways? most of what i see is people playing the exact scripted way the devs told them to fight with only variations in how well they did and where they chose to go while dodging.

by comparison i can show you bosses in zelda on NES being beaten without the sword.

>>15168309

The devs themselves even put up a video about it

>>15168184

>You mean to imply boss rush games have inherently less diversity?

In the game itself? Yes.

>and to a lesser extent most of the rest of Treasure's library which would like to have a word with you.

I'm talking about the fact that the game itself has less diversity than a game that isn't a boss rush game. And half the examples you listed aren't pure boss rush games anyway.

>and to a lesser extent most of the rest of Treasure's library which would like to have a word with you.

And? In the end you're still using the same abilities you're given from the start.

>You should try playing through the game and then try getting the S-ranks for all bosses to see the difference in playstyle you have learned by then.

I would but the game is fucking boring once you beat it the first time. The harder difficulty doesn't do enough to make it worth playing through a second time.

>Just what is a boss to you, anyways?

Depends on the game? The bosses in Furi end up using the same abilities though because you're only given a hand full of ways to go against them.

>whereas the variety in Furi is derived out of the bosses you encounter which challenge specific parts of your moveset.

Specific parts of an incredibly tiny moveset. Which is why the game gets old after you beat it the first time.

>who incorporates attacks from every single boss in the game

All of them being not much.

>A lot of phases in Furi are designed so certain attacks can be skipped if you deal damage fast enough

And they all revolve around doing the same shit over and over again with little to no variation. I'm not arguing it's a good thing that more skill can skip segments of a fight. But the skill is based on an extremely limited moveset and becomes tedious once you understand it.

>For example

You're missing the point. The game can have segments and waves but in the end you're still severely limited by what you can actually do in the boss fights. They're all a set of linear waves that become stale by the time you're done with your first play through.

>>15168341

>shoot at enemy while his shield is down

>snipe through the revolving walls

>strafe while shooting

>parry attacks, especially ones that are built up

>exploit your parry attacks to find The Burst

Most of those are just common sense shit that expedite a fight, save the last one which barely makes much contextual sense. In the end you're still using the same tools. You're still shooting walls or projectiles to make the fight easier. The areas where you use the environment are the best examples of what you're trying to say but the majority of the methods you're showing are just things to speed up the fight, not actually add diversity to how you fight them. Using the environment more often to deal damage like knocking enemies into walls to get them in a short stun so you can deal more damage, or having a list of combo's that are good for specific fights or segments of a duel would add much more than what we were given for example.

>>15168435

>But the skill is based on an extremely limited moveset

Look, we can argue whether Furi is "diverse enough" or not all day long, but if you can't provide concrete details or suggestions or some actual comparisons to other games as to how Furi could be made more varied and interesting, then I wouldn't even know where to begin with you, if I don't even know what you consider diverse. We need to establish some common ground first. "All these attacks are not much", so why would it be the case here but not in another game? It's not like other games haven't utilized the same movement or attack tools as Furi has. Because I've played several games of a similar style which most people would consider diverse, but maybe you don't, and if I didn't know we'd be constantly running in circles because of it.

>>15168489

>but the majority of the methods you're showing are just things to speed up the fight

Furi is a game of optimization for that matter. But maybe that's where the turn off for you lies. Like how Dustforce DX is designed around speedrunning by encouraging you to heavily optimize with a limited moveset, but most speedrunners like discovering new bugs and glitches to get faster times, so something like Dustforce comes off as incredibly restrictive.

If the fun in games to you lies more with problem solving than puzzle solving, then there's your problem with Furi. Yet there is no single definite solution to each fight, as RNG still remains a factor, and the key is how much you can optimize it using this set of tools.

>>15168543

>but if you can't provide concrete details or suggestions or some actual comparisons to other games as to how Furi could be made more varied and interesting

I just did. The environment being used more often for your moveset or combo's was a basic idea. You want more? How about charging while shooting makes a faster projectile? Especially when charged? Jesus I mean I'm not the game dev here. I'm just stating what's wrong with the game.

>if I don't even know what you consider diverse.

I stated it pretty clearly. More abilities from your end. Or more methods to defeat the boss that isn't just speeding the fight up.

>so why would it be the case here but not in another game?

Depends on the game. Older titles in the late 80's in 90's that border on arcade have similarities sure, but they also don't shoehorn a shitty story down your throat or stick to just 1 method of boss rush gameplay. Outside of that, most of the ones worth playing are so difficult that the limitations make up for it by you not being able to beat the game. Furi is already a generally pretty easy game and by the time you get the the harder difficulty you're bored with it because of how limited it is. Granted this doesn't make it a shit game but as I already stated, it's a 5/10 title that I would pirate only.

>Furi is a game of optimization for that matter.

And optmization is fine. But once you reach a threshold you realize the game isn't offering much more than that. There's very little incentive to actually kill a boss faster if you know it's going to be in the same linear function every time. It's essentially a tedious chore at that point. Which is fine if you like that, but objectively a game should offer new ways to challenge you. And most of the ways you're pushed to optimize in Furi are so basic that you'll usually end up using those optimization tactics in the first playthrough.

>Like how Dustforce DX is designed around speedrunning by encouraging you to heavily optimize with a limited moveset

Dustforce is a platformer. More than that it has more levels and abilities than Furi. Evey move you make in it has a way to improve on it. In Furi once you understand a tactic you've essentially done everything the game has to offer in that regard. More than that Dustforce has levels so difficult that less than 5k people have truly 100% it last I checked. So there's always more room to improve. With Furi you're essentially capable of getting 99% of the way there with a few weeks of practice at best and past that there's just the speedrunners who are making such minute differences to the gameplay that it's barely worth the effort outside of those people who are interested

>If the fun in games to you lies more with problem solving than puzzle solving,

It lies more with being to restrained to feel satisfied that you used your own method of defeating a boss rather than the method the developers intended. Or at least, what you see as your own method. There's only so many ways to kill a boss in Furi. You can't develop an individual style or find a feature of your abilities you favor over another without failing the boss entirely. It's all a static fight that progresses with some short cuts here and there.

>>15168645

>You want more? How about charging while shooting makes a faster projectile? Especially when charged?

Then there'd be no point to using charge shots if you can deal assraping amounts of DPS with your boosted regular shots.

>More abilities from your end. Or more methods to defeat the boss that isn't just speeding the fight up.

Again, you have to be concrete here. You can't just willy-nilly project your expectations on a game that it should be deeper with more abilities, and then offer it as objective criticism. "Like this but more" isn't actually going to help anyone. There have been deeper games than with an even smaller mechanical breadth than Furi, and not necessarily ones which relied on breadth of content either.

>The environment being used more often

And why would that not be gimmicky but all the "gimmick bosses" on their own are?

>There's very little incentive to actually kill a boss faster if you know it's going to be in the same linear function every time. It's essentially a tedious chore at that point.

Why does this statement apply to Furi but not to any other game of your choosing?

I seriously don't know what makes you feel this way, because I do not consider the bosses in Furi to be that different in the core structure from bosses in most other action games, which is a structure that works for me. Take a look at embed related where one guy dissects one of the better boss fights in DMC4, and there's a lot of parallels you can draw between a fight like this and one in Furi, especially concerning the methods by which the player is attacked and the methods to respond to those attacks, and how windows of opportunities work. DMC4 having a larger moveset means there's more methods of attacking and potentially more methods of avoiding attacks, but the core here which both games manage to nail is that you can usually counter a boss' attack and always have enough room to play aggressively (as there's usually enough room to sneak in some damage, main exception being the last phases for every fight in Furi), as opposed to the DmC example brought up in the video where you can only attack when the boss tells you to or when you can always attack but the boss only responds with one easily avoided attack.

>but objectively a game should offer new ways to challenge you

The sniper boss can summon minions and challenges your ability to use cover. The samurai boss challenges your ability with the sword. The Beat is part platforming challenge. The Song/The Line/The Star are more about how you can weave through projectiles. The Strap is about challenging your ability to dash with huge sweeping lasers. The Hand focuses more on parrying attacks or finding an opening through the shield. Most of the others are more general. I don't know how the hell that doesn't count.

>And most of the ways you're pushed to optimize in Furi are so basic that you'll usually end up using those optimization tactics in the first playthrough

Come on, you've only watched that video instead of putting it to practice yourself. Though it's true that a lot of these tactics are more knowledge-based than sleights of execution, I'd argue that's a case with a lot of 'hidden mechanics' in singleplayer games, even if some ream more on the side of abstract bullshit (like being able to parry to get the sniper's position, I never knew about that one before). There's still more involved to going fast in Furi, such as manipulating the boss positions to get them to fire at a more favorable angle as you dash behind them and their entire area of attack, or being able to start the melee phase for each boss by having them knocked down (and thus giving you enough time to boost) if you initiate it with the last hit in your combo, or incorporating half-charged slashes in your combos to avoid knockdowns and bosses going invulnerable.

>1 method of boss rush gameplay

Why wouldn't a boss not be able to challenge you the same way a stage can?

>>15168645

>Evey move you make in it has a way to improve on it.

All those improvements are largely level specific, and will inevitably come down to memorization, which doesn't make it much different from Furi. The same way you can understand a simple optimization tactic in Furi is no different than in Dustforce, but how you apply that is not always universal. Of course Dustforce has more levels to be better at by which in comparison Furi is a short game. Which Furi is, in general.

>Older titles in the late 80's in 90's that border on arcade have similarities sure, but they also don't shoehorn a shitty story down your throat or stick to just 1 method of boss rush gameplay. Outside of that, most of the ones worth playing are so difficult that the limitations make up for it by you not being able to beat the game. Furi is already a generally pretty easy game and by the time you get the the harder difficulty you're bored with it because of how limited it is.

I don't know about that, some bosses on Furier could take me upwards of an hour of retries, as you no longer have the benefit of green health orbs and enemy attacks are much more furious.

A lot of the complaints you listed mirror the ones you brought up against Cuphead (let's not pretend, destiny brought us autists here again). And essentially, Furi and Cuphead are short romps. They've got basic and static movesets, but they rely on the bosses to draw the most out of them (something MatthewMatosis mentioned in his own review of the game). That's why each boss in Furi has its own special gimmick to make it stand out more from the rest. They're short on content, they're not arcadey enough to feature an actual scoring system or to send you back to start on dying, and they sell themselves on difficulty. By the time you're done playing them on their Hard Modes, you've spent around 15 to 25 hours. Replay value consists more of speedrunning and shaving off milliseconds. They don't have the same skill ceiling cuhrazy games do, and a lot of bosses may feel like trial 'n error. But what I do appreciate is how each of the bosses can take different spins on the same never-changing moveset, and how each boss does bring something different to the table. It doesn't need to cover up by constantly introducing new mechanics to the game, but instead plays on existing ones and stretches them to full capacity. And I think potential still remains. What if you fought a boss where you fought two guys at once? What if you fought a boss which could dynamically form walls in the arena to have you move in a sort of maze before getting to the big man himself?

For that matter, I don't think your moveset is as versatile as it could have been. For example, you will only really use your Charge Shot when a boss starts vomiting huge amounts of bullets, or when you need to clear some space, but most of the time you will never use it, whereas it could instead create a zone where it deals damage over time to let you stack damage on top of using your regular shots, by letting you charge a charge shot while shooting. Your melee attacks could have a larger area of effect to cancel close by projectiles, and your dash could also as a shoulder ram by letting you dash into bosses for damage. Instead of slapping shit on top, I'd prefer making existing things more versatile. Like how your shots in Metal Black are so wide and can be used to damage shit right above and beneath your ship.

If you still truly believe that games need bigger movesets to create variety, hit up Dolphin and go play Sin & Punishment: Star Successor. The amount of mileage gotten out of a single moveset where you can only shoot, charge shoot, fly around, dash, and use melee attacks to cancel projectiles, parry enemies and redirect incoming missiles to any target on screen is insane.

Play through once on normal and again on furi.

And then do the more more fight.

Listen to the Soundtrack alot.

That's how to play this game.

>>15168878

ALL THE POWER OF AN ANGEL

>>15168878

>Then there'd be no point to using charge shots if you can deal assraping amounts of DPS with your boosted regular shots.

Has nothing to do with what I stated. But even then that's a shitty mechanic. Charge shots offer more risk and should offer more reward.

>You can't just willy-nilly project your expectations on a game that it should be deeper with more abilities, and then offer it as objective criticism.

Objectively, the game becomes boring because of this. It's a limitation. Not the other way around.

>"Like this but more" isn't actually going to help anyone

I already stated specifically why it doesn't work. What more do you want faggot? The limited amount of moves and abilities in the game make it limited and not worth replaying. The fuck is there not concrete about this?

>And why would that not be gimmicky but all the "gimmick bosses" on their own are?

Who said it wouldn't be? I don't mind the idea of gimmicks in a game. The problem is the lack of the amount of them and how they're not used to the fullest extent.

>And why would that not be gimmicky but all the "gimmick bosses" on their own are?

I mean I stated EXPLICITLY why it didn't with Dustforce. Why are you asking me to go over every fucking game ever made that's anywhere like it before I can even begin to describe why it doesn't work in Furi? Do you even know what you're asking for? If you're going to demand concrete answers then develop more concrete questions.

>because I do not consider the bosses in Furi to be that different in the core structure from bosses in most other action games

Besides the fact that they use similar attacks while your character is limited? The problem isn't that they're not entirely different. It's that after the first half you know what to expect and they become harder to distinguish from a gameplay perspective.

>Take a look at embed related where one guy dissects one of the better boss fights in DMC4

DMC4 isn't even fucking remotely the same as Furi in terms of gameplay. I'm not even going to begin to dissect this autism you're trying to push here.

>but the core here which both games manage to nail is that you can usually counter a boss' attack and always have enough room to play aggressively

You can't argue that the games are similar to their "core" and then bring up combo's moron. The only thing you looking at in these comparisons is the progression of the fight. Not how the actual fights interweave with the gameplay.

>The sniper boss can summon minions and challenges your ability to use cover.

Minions who use similar attacks and "cover" being your use of dashing. She was the most unique boss in the game and only by the virtue of having a retarded 1 shot kill feature which barely added much. It wasn't entirely a bad idea as it introduced a real threat but "finding cover" got tedious after the first playthrough. After that it was just another thing that became annoying.

>The Beat is part platforming challenge

So was the blonde.

>The Beat is part platforming challenge

The same projectiles over and over again.

>The Hand focuses more on parrying attacks or finding an opening through the shield

See, this is the issue. He "focuses" on parrying attacks but in the end you're parrying for nearly every boss fight. By the point you reach him you're already familiar with parrying and how limited you are by only being able to parry during certain segments.

>>15169511

>Come on, you've only watched that video instead of putting it to practice yourself.

Bullshit faggot. Who the fuck wouldn't know that you can't shoot a person when his shield is down or not tediously shoot down every shield layer instead of trying to get an early kill? These aren't "hot tips" that can only be learned from watching the video. I did most of these on my first playthrough and likely most of the rest on my second. After that I found out how limited the game was and dropped it.

>(like being able to parry to get the sniper's position, I never knew about that one before)

And it's more like an exploit than anything. Even if it's intended it makes virtually no sense from a narrative perspective. And from a gameplay perspective it's only a slightly helpful feature that requires you to push 1 button. Most of the tips in that video are either piss basic or barely enough to make the claim that the bosses are unique to each other.

>such as manipulating the boss positions to get them to fire at a more favorable angle

In many of the stages this isn't a big deal since most of them are round. In the ones they aren't I have to say, you're scraping here for what constitutes as "diverse" gameplay. And even then, it's such a basic concept that it's not worth mentioning. How many games would you put above 5/10 because you can "manipulate" the enemy placement?

>or being able to start the melee phase for each boss by having them knocked down

Again, a minor skill that does nothing but save time. I'm speaking on more fundemetally different levels here.

>Why wouldn't a boss not be able to challenge you the same way a stage can?

Because they're fundamentally different? Why is this a question? Do you want me to go over the differences between a common stage level and a boss level?

>which doesn't make it much different from Furi.

It does since it's a platformer. As in, a completely different genre. And as I said before. You aren't required to play a level on Dustforce in a specific way. There's multiple, with different criteria for completing it. You're trying to compare 2 fundamentally different concepts here and pretending that they share similarities when they don't. A stage in a platformer is not like an enemy Boss. A stage will never attack you or alter its pattern or have a modicum of RNG. You aren't even trying to make a solid analogy here.

>Of course Dustforce has more levels to be better at by which in comparison Furi is a short game. Which Furi is, in general.

My point is that Furi has no bosses that less than 1% of its playerbase can beat. There's always a higher peak in Dustforce to reach due to it's uncompromising difficulty and depth in its movement controls. Furi has neither such a ceiling for difficulty or even half as much depth and complexity in its controls.

>some bosses on Furier could take me upwards of an hour of retries, as you no longer have the benefit of green health orbs and enemy attacks are much more furious.

The green health orbs were a crutch from the start in the game. And the brutality of the attacks are quick but when you have such a limited amount of decisions to make it becomes childs play on

>but they rely on the bosses to draw the most out of them

Which is why the game isn't a 0/10. But the bosses only bring so much. And due to the limited nature of the game it's retarded to claim that those bosses actually brought out enough to make the game something wholly original or commendable.

>They're short on content

And replayability.

>they're not arcadey enough to feature an actual scoring system

Which probably would have padded out the gameplay time in Furi honestly. But the devs had to have a plot instead.

>and they sell themselves on difficulty

And it's difficult. I won't argue that. But I will argue that if you're going to have a game be difficult, you need to have good gameplay or content to make it feel like it's worth picking up again after you beat it. Furi barely manages 1 playthough worth of content.

>By the time you're done playing them on their Hard Modes, you've spent around 15 to 25 hours.

And if you're at all familiar with parry mechanics in indie titles or dashing in just about any title it will take you roughly 8.

>Replay value consists more of speedrunning and shaving off milliseconds.

And like I said, if the game had more content or abilities this would be a fine feature. But as it stands it's like getting the highest score in Pong. There's not much there to make the skill investment worth it since it's such a simple title.

Watched it on youtube. Story and characters are cool, but I wouldn't play it. Looks more like a chore than a game.

>>15169515

>But what I do appreciate is how each of the bosses can take different spins on the same never-changing moveset

Those "spins" being the same bullet hell or ring wave attacks you see every fight. With a maybe 20% difference in their actual abilities depending on the battle. There's not enough there.

>It doesn't need to cover up by constantly introducing new mechanics to the game

Who said it needed to introduce them?

>but instead plays on existing ones and stretches them to full capacity.

Stretches them to thin is the problem. "Full capacity" is the perfect way of saying a low skill ceiling.

>What if you fought a boss where you fought two guys at once?

So 2 times the amount of bullet hell projectiles and wave rings? That's not much of an improvement.

>what if you fought a boss which could dynamically form walls in the arena to have you move in a sort of maze before getting to the big man himself?

They literally do that with the sniper and the second battle. And who the fuck wants to solve a maze in a bullet hell game? If anything it would be a hallway where you have to evade projectiles. Which is what you already do in the base game. Even you can't think of ways to improve the base gameplay here man. You're only extending what's already there.

>For that matter, I don't think your moveset is as versatile as it could have been.

I mean I already said this. I said combining a charge shot with a dash could make your projectiles more quick and accurate. Maybe even a damage buff.

>If you still truly believe that games need bigger movesets to create variety

I'm not even arguing bigger movesets. I'm just stating it wouldn't hurt if they did something with the ones you have.

I await TL:DR tier posts now

>>15169293

From a narrative perspective the game has a lot going for it. Primarily with its subtle hints that you get to figure out on your own The problem is it's to forced to the extent that it inhibits gameplay. The music was pretty fucking generic for retrowave however and faggots who say that it all meshes well together are bullshitting. The only tracks that stood out was The Song and a few others I can't even recall.

>>15169515

>A stage will never attack you or alter its pattern or have a modicum of RNG

Now you're just being close-minded. "No modicum of RNG" he says, how have you never played Ghosts 'n Goblins?

>You're only extending what's already there

Never tried to do anything but.

>My point is that Furi has no bosses that less than 1% of its playerbase can beat

Only 1.4% of people who bought the game have beat Furier mode.

>Those "spins" being the same bullet hell or ring wave attacks you see every fight. With a maybe 20% difference in their actual abilities depending on the battle. There's not enough there.

Here's your problem. You only look at the sum of different elements used to create patterns and then judge the variety of challenges based on that, but not how these different elements are used in different ways to create different attack patterns, nor do you even bother to acknowledge that such a thing can even be possibly done. Many bosses use the same attack/projectile types, but how these are utilized is what greatly varies between each attack patterns and what affects your decision making process in Furi. The initial appearance of a game like Furi is that it’s very discrete, but if you dig deeper into how the game works, there are many raw factors that shake up what the optimal strategy actually is and create more interesting decisions based on situations. Raw games frequently have many complex overlapping factors that work together to deliver a unique reactive challenge, discrete ones typically have minimal overlap and less reactivity to the player. Raw games make more frequent use of randomness to vary the challenge. Raw games have more subtle ranges of success and failure, while discrete ones have very clearly defined measures of them. Which in Furi manifests itself through your boss killtimes or player damage taken, for one.

For example, normally waves are to be dashed through, but The Chain on Furier can launch waves of projectiles which are so dense that it can't be dashed through, but some of the bullets also need to be canceled with your regular shot, and it also adds in projectiles which cannot be canceled and need to be strafed around. How you can create enough space to fit in through the pattern is up to you. The Line can throw out these attacks which require you to dash through a wave and then dash through or parry some homing bullets at the right time, which come at some uneven times and ironically require patience. The Star can lock you in with uncancelable projectiles and lock you off to a very small space of the arena while launching waves you need to somehow dash through in that very small space.

The final phase in The Song/The Line have you try destroying several targets at the corners of the arena through a literal bullet hell, whereas The Line emphasizes canceling bullets to create space and The Song adds airstrikes and spinning lasers to dash through on top. For the final phase of The Flame you're trying to hit him at the center of the arena as he constantly throws shockwaves and other damage zones at you, but there's walls between you and him preventing you from getting through any bullets, whereas he can also fire sweeping lasers which are blocked by the same walls, so you have to time exposing yourself by shooting in the gaps between the walls and risk getting lasered. The Hand can attack you with a rotating danger zone while requiring that you dash through shock waves at the right times while still staying on the move. The Burst's final phase in particular is a challenge of multitasking as you're not only dashing an onslaught of shockwaves, but also trying to move left and right in the arena to get behind pieces of cover if you don't want to get sniped.

The Edge actually expects you to attack in the middle of his combos rather than passively parrying all of his attacks, which are frequently and rapidly mixed up with shockwaves. The Scale often fires trailing bullets, which when left unparried will leave behind a damaging trail, so it becomes a matter of positioning and proper timing to parry back his bullets in time. The Star frequently has you parry attacks while simultaneously weaving through huge waves of bullets. Bernard can actually fire multi-layered shockwaves which can only be dashed through from certain angles, while also adding waves you need to charge-dash through in the mix. The Beat has this constant beat of dash-parry-dash-parry to it inbetween the platforming segments.

>>15170533

You can't just use the same strategy for every boss in Furi. Each boss is different enough in its attack patterns and reliance on reflexes, while simultaneously adding in enough chaotic variables to prevent you from being able to memorize a foolproof route through each fight. You're constantly placed in situations where it's unwise to use certain abilities, and have to quickly decide which other ones to use instead.

If your only response to this is that "the whole game is just a matter of knowing when to dash and where to dash anyways", then you're being stupidly reductionist, though I don't feel like applying the same faulty line of reasoning to other games in order to create an example. It's not the best bullet hell or the best twin-stick shooter or the best hack 'n slash, but it combines elements of these different genres to create a lot of different unique mix-ups to the challenge. You'd have more of a leg to stand on if you tried to specifically argue why these attacks are boring rather than saying "they are boring because they are just bullets and shockwaves" over and over with no regard to how they are used in synergy with other elements.

And even though the moveset is limited, consider this. Outside the tutorial boss, you are never forced to use any of the charge functions on your attacks. How and where you decide to use them is entirely up to you. That you say "it ain't much" doesn't take away from the fact that it is there and that there is a learning curve to the game, one fitting of its length.

Just what even is a game in a similar style which you think does a better job at it than Furi?

>>15167746

no, it's shit

>>15170533

>Now you're just being close-minded.

No, I'm looking at 2 seperate things and calling them 2 separate things. RNG is just an example of a difference.

>Never tried to do anything but.

And it's a flaw.

>Only 1.4% of people who bought the game have beat Furier mode

Post pics. Last I checked it was a lot higher. But that was also a few weeks into the games release. Either way my point stands that a definitively higher amount of players have beat the game and found all the content.

>but not how these different elements are used in different ways to create different attack patterns

I never stated they weren't used in different ways. But in the end you're still so familiar with how they act that you're never surprised or given new stimulus to make the game interesting enough to be worth your time past a second playthrough.

>there are many raw factors that shake up what the optimal strategy actually is and create more interesting decisions based on situations

And those decisions more often than not are often the same because the attacks and your limited abilities never change or have enough variety.

>but The Chain on Furier can launch waves of projectiles which are so dense that it can't be dashed through

Yet you still dash to evade them. And the pattern is so simple you rarely go out of your way to do anything else.

> The Line can throw out these attacks which require you to dash through a wave and then dash through or parry some homing bullets at the right time

Literally all you're stating now is using different patterns. Not actually altering the gameplay. I can continue reading your examples point by point but all I'm seeing is "instead of doing x this way, do x that way". In the end you're still relying on x being used in the same manor. Just in a different direction. Which is just reinforcing my point that there's little to no variety in the game.

>You can't just use the same strategy for every boss in Furi

Sure you can. Every boss in Furi has a similar pattern of evading there attacks, getting close or using your rifle and then getting into a melee phase to kill them with some exceptions.

>>15172590

>while simultaneously adding in enough chaotic variables to prevent you from being able to memorize a foolproof route through each fight

And that's the problem. You're memorizing the same route, finding very little diverse attacks and patterns and ultimately lowering the skill ceiling because of it. There's never a moment where you can change the stage mid fight by throwing a character out of the ring onto another one, the boss does that for you in a static fashion. There's never a moment where you can get them in a deep stunlock through a complex series of combo's or the use of the environment. It's all about optimizing what's already there without any variety.

>You're constantly placed in situations where it's unwise to use certain abilities, and have to quickly decide which other ones to use instead.

Yes, 1 of 4 abilities. That's not a thing to use as an example of the game being good. Especially since when once you figure out 1 of the 4 abilities that exact novelty is worn off.

>but it combines elements of these different genres to create a lot of different unique mix-ups to the challenge

It's not unique if it borrows from everything. The product isn't a sum of it's parts if they're entirely separate entities. And especially when all of those separate entities are shallow.

>You'd have more of a leg to stand on if you tried to specifically argue why these attacks are boring rather than saying "they are boring because they are just bullets and shockwaves"

And you would have a stronger argument if you could somehow dignify how doing the same thing in repetition, despite the game trying to pursue that every fight is "different" isn't boring. Your entire argument here is that dashing through objects and not being able to dash through objects so instead you dash around them is enough to keep the game fresh and diverse in its attacks. When realistically it's not. There could have been a lot of better and more interesting things a boss could have done rather than relying on the same attacks over and over again.

>over and over with no regard to how they are used in synergy with other elements.

That's my point. There's barely any other elements the game has to offer outside of stage variance. Which only adds enough to put the game as a 5/10.

>you are never forced to use any of the charge functions on your attacks

So your argument that it's ok that there's not a large moveset is that 1 of your moves is useless? Right.

>That you say "it ain't much" doesn't take away from the fact that it is there and that there is a learning curve to the game

How does it not? And what does the learning curve have to do with the point being that you're so limited that the learning curve is just a series of repetitive movements with the same 2 attacks?

>Just what even is a game in a similar style which you think does a better job at it than Furi?

Why do I have to compare a different game to Furi? Is it not enough to state that the mechanics in it don't mesh well and it's not a good game because of it? Do I have to state why an obviously bad game that's entirely unique needs to be compared to something? Even so there's better boss rush games out there. And there's better Bullet hell games out there. If you're so autistic that you MUST play a game that has both but are poorly implemented then I guess Furi is for you. Every element or genre it stacks on is shallow and adds very little to the actual gameplay outside of changing the tone. Which is nice, but not worth replaying seriously as there's better games that do those features better. Basically I'm saying that Furi is the definition of a novelty game. And why it's not worth purchasing.

>>15172735

>contrarian

Get an argument first faggot.

>>15172750

Why would I waste my time formulating an argument for a contrarian?

>>15172590

>But in the end you're still so familiar with how they act that you're never surprised or given new stimulus to make the game interesting enough to be worth your time past a second playthrough

All attacks in Furi are clear variations on what you already know, with the tutorial boss making sure you do, rather than throwing total curveballs which leave you wondering what the fuck you are supposed to do against them. The new stimulus for Furier mode then come in the form of more difficult and involving attacks, which are again extensions of existing patterns. It'd feel out of place if Furier Mode suddenly started throwing completely new attacks at you whose means of dodging them are very different, such as there being purplish corrupted beams like in Nex Machina which you can't dash through, whereas most Furi players would try to do so on their first try.

For a successive playthrough after Furier you can try getting all the S-ranks on bosses, you can try no damaging the bosses, or try getting the best times. Beyond that, not so much. It doesn't have the depth to be mercilessly replayed to death with constant improvements being achieved by scorechasers/speedrunners, but then again most games don't, and neither does Furi. To me it is still a fun enough romp to have me replaying it every now and then, like some action game on the Genesis.

>Yet you still dash to evade them. And the pattern is so simple you rarely go out of your way to do anything else

This is that reductionist mindset again I warned you against. Like you just dash through it. The same way you just jump over obstacles in Mario and Megaman, the same way you just parry in Metal Gear Rising when you see a red flash, the same way you just strafe around enemies in Doom, the same way you just dodge bullets in a Touhou game, and so on. I don't even consider this to be a strawman, you almost refuse to acknowledge to consider how an attack pattern in Furi can challenge your decision making skills despite all the present attacks not nearly always making it a case of 'just dash here lmao', to which you can only provide broad oversimplifications of the decisionmaking process itself and inherent similarities between bosses as to why it's boring. If you've beat The Burst, you should know how challenging things can get. There's not a soul on the internet who didn't bitch about her last phase. Bullet Hell games can get tons of mileage just out of different bullet patterns, Furi isn't even much different in that regard.

>In the end you're still relying on x being used in the same manor. Just in a different direction

That is a core principle of level design in general. Utilizing what you already have, but in different ways. Like how different setups of enemy types in beat 'em ups can in itself create tons of unique situations, without the need to rely on stage hazards. If you have to keep altering the gameplay for the sake of variety, like forced stealth sections in a FPS, then the existing gameplay probably isn't good enough to carry the entire game, or you're judging variety entirely from a surface level.

After all, all levels in Doom are just different kinds of mazes where you always need to find three keys, aren't they? Isn't Doom painfully repetitive because it only has the same mission objective over and over?

>Sure you can. Every boss in Furi has a similar pattern of

That's the structure of every boss fight. Not something you as a player have direct control over or willingly perpetuate yourself as your own strategy.

>Even so there's better boss rush games out there

Like what?

>There's never a moment where you can get them in a deep stunlock through a complex series of combo's

Stunlocking is generally a horrible idea in singleplayer games if most of your combat is 1v1. You could just stun one guy indefinitely to death without him ever attacking. Dark Souls' combat is primarily designed around 1v1 and does feature combos, but infinite juggles are prevented by a limited stamina gauge. Hence why in-depth combos wouldn't be really suited to Furi despite many's preconceptions of hack 'n slash games.

>Your entire argument here is that dashing through objects and not being able to dash through objects so instead you dash around them

The challenge comes from different types of attacks or attack opportunities being layered on top of eachother. Not only do you have waves to consider, but also incoming bullets to cancel with your own gun. Not only do you have to dash, but also strafe to position yourself properly for the next dash. Not only do you have to parry, but also dash in quick succession when the boss decides at random that it's time.

>>15173129

>It's not unique if it borrows from everything. The product isn't a sum of it's parts if they're entirely separate entities. And especially when all of those separate entities are shallow.

I'm just going to paraphrase MatthewMatosis here because I'm lazy:

Furi isn't a particularly good action game, or a good bullet hell game, nor does it strive at being good at them either. But what it does strive for is being a damn good boss rush game. It frequently switches back and forth between different types of combat and demands that you be competent at all of them.

While the majority of boss fights will consist of dashing and parrying, the game throws enough surprises at you to keep you on your feet. Try shooting while The Line stops time and you're in for a nasty surprise. Other limitations come in the form of The Hand's shield blocking your bullets and The Burst turning invisible. These kind of non-standard scenarios give the lesser used mechanics a turn to shine. In some cases the Charge Shot is the best way of dealing damage to enemies who just appeared, or snapping bosses out of unfavorable attack patterns. The Song can be parried as the dives towards you, and some of the bullets at the start of The Scale's final phase can be canceled to give you more room to work with. In other words, there may not be much depth, but the few tools at your disposal are utilized excellently in at least a few scenarios each. Many of these scenarios happen only once or twice in the game, providing a nice change of pace while never wearing out their welcome.

Each boss has an element to them that makes them distinct. The Strap is the only one with destructible arenas, The Scale is the only one with trailing bullets, The Burst is the only one with a sniper rifle, The Beat is the only one with platforming segments. The Song and The Hand are practically different genres of their own, testing you much more heavily on one half of the mechanics than the other. Which one you prefer the most depends on what part of the game you like the most, but either way it's nice to have the formula shaken up rather than repeated ad nauseam.

When you have a boss like The Star which solely focuses on bullet hell-ish patterns, the cracks start to show. One of Furi's biggest assets is its variety, not one particular aspect of it.

>Is it not enough to state that the mechanics in it don't mesh well and it's not a good game because of it?

It's one thing to say that the game is boring, stale, and repetitive, but another to say that the game is fundamentally flawed from the ground up

>>15172807

Why should I assume what you've said is credible otherwise? Next time just post the pic and fuck off instead of trying to assert shit you don't understand.

>>15173129

>rather than throwing total curveballs which leave you wondering what the fuck you are supposed to do against them

There's more than 1 way to add new elements to a game without claiming them as curveballs.

>t'd feel out of place if Furier Mode suddenly started throwing completely new attacks at you whose means of dodging them are very different

God forbid the game add content right?

>whereas most Furi players would try to do so on their first try

Which is a problem?

>It doesn't have the depth to be mercilessly replayed to death with constant improvements being achieved by scorechasers/speedrunners, but then again most games don't,

Most games these days are shit as well. Furi is already a short game. If it's not replayable it's essentially what I stated it as before. A novelty.

>This is that reductionist mindset again I warned you against

It's your own mindset. You still haven't made a claim as to why it's a good thing that the game is incapable of expanding on itself. Rather than just offer shallow iterations of what it already has.

>The same way you just jump over obstacles in Mario and Megaman

The difference is that in Megaman there were clear differences in the fact that jumping was extremely different in each stage. Either through different enemies, disapearing platforms or water mechanics. The use of jumping in Megaman was expanded very differently in each stage. Furi relies on the stages more than anything. And the stages are small areas where as stages in Megaman expand and differ as you progress. Where as the attacks from bosses in Furi rely on the same moves with slight differences relying on the small and limited stages. And what the fuck did I just state about relying on comparing different games? If you want to defend Furi then defend it on its own grounds.

>you almost refuse to acknowledge to consider how an attack pattern in Furi can challenge your decision making skills despite all the present attacks not nearly always making it a case of 'just dash here lmao',

I have acknowledged it. I also stated that the differences don't branch far enough to push it above nothing special.

>to which you can only provide broad oversimplifications of the decisionmaking process itself

The game itself is a broad method of playstyle when you have a limited abilities. EVERYTHING you do is effected by this limitation. And it's limited by the bosses as well. They simply don't have enough diverse attacks.

>you should know how challenging things can get.

I also know how tedious they got. The difficulty isn't worth the lack of content.

>Bullet Hell games can get tons of mileage just out of different bullet patterns

Mainly because they FOCUS on being bullet hell games and offer more difficulty. The bullet hell segments in Furi are not good if you compare them to other bullet hell games.

>That is a core principle of level design in general. Utilizing what you already have, but in different ways.

Which is fine. But again, many games offer more diversity in the attack patterns in the enemies or your own abilities. Or offer enough variance in the stages to always add different twists. Furi barely manages to do this and on top of that it's a short game.

>like forced stealth sections in a FPS

So now you're comparing bad implementations of different mechanics to just adding variation?

>then the existing gameplay probably isn't good enough to carry the entire game

Even good mechanics become stale if there isn't any expansion to them. And in Furi there isn't.

>all levels in Doom are just different kinds of mazes where you always need to find three keys, aren't they?

Jesus fuck off with comparing FPS games to Furi. It's not helping your argument and it's just detracting from the core points you're trying to make. Furi is a linear and point by point game where you focus on 1 specific enemy. Doom has multiple weapons, enemies, stages and strategies. You can't even begin to make sense of this shit on an objective level without devolving into why Doom is a good or bad game in its own right.

>That's the structure of every boss fight.

And that's the MEAT of the game. Without it the game isn't a fucking game.

>Not something you as a player have direct control over

Which is a part of why it's a bland game.

>>15173900

>or willingly perpetuate yourself as your own strategy.

What strategy? You basically play the game in a linear fashion and take occasional shortcuts. strategy would imply there's more than 1 method of defeating the boss. Not more than 1 way of killing it faster.

>Like what?

La Mulana has a boss rush mode I think. As does DK 64 which is a good amount of fun since all the bosses have really peculiar and different methods of beating them. You honestly think there's no better boss rush game on this planet than Furi? What about Bullet hell games for that matter?

>Stunlocking is generally a horrible idea in singleplayer games if most of your combat is 1v1.

Not really. Especially if the enemy boss has a ton of HP and getting them in a stunlock is difficult in its own right.

>You could just stun one guy indefinitely to death without him ever attacking.

And you could stop assuming that the mechanic is inherently shit? You could also stop comparing Furi to other games but I can't rely on that obviously.

>The challenge comes from different types of attacks or attack opportunities being layered on top of eachother. Not only do you have waves to consider, but also incoming bullets to cancel with your own gun. Not only do you have to dash, but also strafe to position yourself properly for the next dash. Not only do you have to parry, but also dash in quick succession when the boss decides at random that it's time

So basically what you do the entire game? I mean you basically just summed up what it entirely consists of. That's not enough to carry it for more than 12 hours, if that.

>I'm just going to paraphrase MatthewMatosis here because I'm lazy:

The man's objectively right half the time. But his analysis's fall flat on so many fucking angles it's retarded. get your own voice faggot.

>It frequently switches back and forth between different types of combat and demands that you be competent at all of them.

And if you're familiar with any of them their piss easy.

>the game throws enough surprises at you to keep you on your feet

Well cited argument there. You did a better job at this than he did. And that's not much of a statement.

>Other limitations come in the form of The Hand's shield blocking your bullets and The Burst turning invisible

And those limitations just force you to use less abilities. Effectively hindering your flow in the game and retarding your amusement as a result. The use of less abilities in a game that's already extremely limited in abiities is a poor idea to begin with.

>In some cases the Charge Shot is the best way of dealing damage to enemies who just appeared, or snapping bosses out of unfavorable attack patterns

Funny since you just stated yourself that Charge Shot is almost entirely useless compared to rapid fire. You're basically contradicting your own argument with this copy pasta I hope you know.

>The Song can be parried as the dives towards you

As can nearly any attack from any boss. Not a huge step in diverse attacks.

>but the few tools at your disposal are utilized excellently in at least a few scenarios each.

And in the end all you're left with is a novelty of a game. Where once you reveal what's behind the attacks you're entirely limited to that 1 way or method of playing.

>The Strap is the only one with destructible arenas, The Scale is the only one with trailing bullets, The Burst is the only one with a sniper rifle, The Beat is the only one with platforming segments

And yet they all use the same attacks from time to time.

>testing you much more heavily on one half of the mechanics than the other

And again, forcing you to compress your abilities even further. Limiting your player "decisions" that you're defending so heavily to near nothing.

>When you have a boss like The Star which solely focuses on bullet hell-ish patterns, the cracks start to show. One of Furi's biggest assets is its variety, not one particular aspect of it.

It's a shame that the only thing the game gets away with is having a lot of flair with no depth behind it.

>It's one thing to say that the game is boring, stale, and repetitive, but another to say that the game is fundamentally flawed from the ground up

Can't it be both? And even so how does this make any sense when I'm stating that your other game comparisons aren't actually accurate in dissecting why the game works?

Seriously man. Just admit it. The game is a novelty. You pirate it, play it once through, partially enjoy how unique the game is, remain annoyed at how heavy handed and shitty the plot was, and forget everything the next day and move on. This isn't a game you credit, it's one you realize was a wine and dine and forget about it. It's the definition of a novelty product.

>>15173900

>Which is a problem?

It would be poorly communicated without relying on another sort of intrusive tutorial message.

>If it's not replayable it's essentially what I stated it as before

It's certainly replayable enough to be played once again through Furier and to get most S-ranks.

>why it's a good thing that the game is incapable of expanding on itself

I didn't, I said it does, but-

>Rather than just offer shallow iterations of what it already has

You will completely disregard anything as shallow without any further argument other than citing the tool you're supposed to use to deal with them being the same one you use for others. Like, what makes The Song so identical to The Line that both of them come off as only minor variations to eachother?

>Mainly because they FOCUS on being bullet hell games and offer more difficulty

You don't even know what makes a boss fight bullet hell game engaging, and how that would apply to Furi. You can only assume that it must be more engaging because it must be more difficult and because it must be better at being a bullet hell because it purely focuses on that. But what makes a bullet hell a fun bullet hell you don't even know, as half of the stuff you bring up against Furi (limited movesets, no diversity in attacks) applies to most bullet hells out there.

>I also stated that the differences don't branch far enough to push it above nothing special.

And why is it that the case, despite the plethora of different attacks the game does throw at you?

>I also know how tedious they got.

And why is that?

>Mainly because they FOCUS on being bullet hell games and offer more difficulty

If the problem for you is that Furi is too easy, then go play it on Furier.

>Not more than 1 way of killing it faster

The degree to which you can kill a boss faster is also directly proportional to how good you are at the game. There's a satisfying feeling of player growth when remembering how this boss used to constantly kick your ass when you first encountered it, only for you to now make your boss its bitch and skip a lot of its attacks on Furier. As Furi is not a game about content, it's more about player growth, and I'd consider the game sufficiently fair and challenging to really make it feel like you got gud at the end of it, something I think Furi nails very well. Though this may not work out as well if challenge and perfecting skills to you does not equals to fun, and fun for games in you are those eureka moments of discovery of how certain mechanics actually work and how the game is constantly turned on its head because of it.

>You honestly think there's no better boss rush game on this planet than Furi?

The fact that you even have to ask shows your limited understanding of the genre. I hear Shadow of the Colossus is good, but I've never played it. Alien Soldier is what one couldn't describe as anything but varied, though it's not as tight on challenging player movement the same way Furi does. Cuphead is similar in a lot of ways to Furi in that it's got a limited moveset but bosses which challenge you on that moveset in many different ways, and I think I like it a lot because of it.

>>15175177

>Especially if the enemy boss has a ton of HP and getting them in a stunlock is difficult in its own right

If a boss can be stunlocked then it's often possible to infinitely stunlock him (f.e. a lot of bosses in Streets of Rage 2 can be stunlocked to death because they have no constantly spawning enemies on the side for you to consider), so often the system places a limit to the amount of stunlocking you can do in a given timeframe before letting the boss attack again (f.e. Revenge Value in Kingdom Hearts). But for 1v1 fights a lot of options can be made useless if the dominant strategy is to just stunlock the boss to death, unless there's other systems in place to encourage you from doing otherwise, though that doesn't really take away from the fact that a boss can be cheesed to death this way by preventing the boss from attacking you at all.

>And you could stop assuming that the mechanic is inherently shit?

I never said it was shit, only that it's a poor fit for 1v1 combat, and especially for a game which focuses itself on 1v1s. Stunlocking is very useful for crowd control, so games which feature a lot of crowded fights but also 1v1s need some additional systems to prevent you to stunlock the boss indefinitely. If there's only 1v1s, then stunlocking would be very OP without anything to balance it out.

It's why combo systems for 1v1 fights (in singleplayer) would start to feel redundant, because you'd only use the combo which deals the highest DPS, whereas most combo systems are designed to have different combos for the objective of crowd control. It makes sense that Furi would then only have one main attack combo. People simply expect in-depth combo systems from every action game nowadays if it looks remotely stylish, and often those expectations are just misplaced. Freeform combat and a boss rush of 1v1s doesn't mesh well together, because freeform combat often works better with crowds. You could have freeform combat in Furi, but then you'd need to change the nature of the bosses you encounter, and at that point you have an entirely different game on your hands.

So, Furi compensates for this by providing you with more complex attacks to avoid. In most CUHRAZY games you usually have one dodge or parry move with high amounts of i-frames, so dodging most attacks comes down to proper timing. They are also not heavy on positioning when it comes to avoiding damage (nor should they be, really), as opposed to Furi where you need to frantically move around incoming attacks or dash to specific positions at specific moments to avoid damage, or even cancel projectiles to clear a path, allowing for greater variety in how bosses can attack the player and challenge your defensive moves. You can dash to avoid damage, but if you dash to the wrong spot you're boned anyways.

Another example would be the bosses in Ys Oath/Origin, another isometric action game, where your moveset is slightly bigger than Furi's as you have a jump instead of a dash, one main combo, three special chargeable abilities, and a berserk ability. The bosses in that game (and maybe you will say the bosses in Oath/Origin are more varied for whatever reason and shows what Furi could have done better just to refute my point) also have attacks which are more interesting to avoid to compensate for your limited means of acting offensively. Such as attacks which need to be jumped over or bosses only being damageable mid-air. Then post- Ys Seven you'd have a move called the Flash Guard which lets you guard against any kind of damage if you time it right, and the element of positioning and moving around and what made the bosses in Oath/Origin so fun is completely ruined because it doesn't have the moveset for offense to compensate for it either.

>>15175179

>And if you're familiar with any of them their piss easy.

And how are they piss easy? Everywhere you look you'll see people complaining about the game's difficulty. Only 1.4% beat the game on the hardest difficulty, and it's not because common consensus is that the game is a pile of garbage. You make it sound like you beat the entire game on your first try. Just what kind of games do you even play to be this much of a superplayer?

>You're basically contradicting your own argument with this copy pasta I hope you know

It pretty much says what I said earlier. As you said that it's almost entirely useless, the Charge Shot has some specific situations where it's useful, but outside of that it's not worth using that much in general, which is unfortunate.

>And again, forcing you to compress your abilities even further

It keeps you on your toes trying to figure out what to do now that one of your core abilities no longer works. In limited doses I can hardly consider this a bad thing, bosses being resistant against certain attacks is hardly anything heretical, and even with a limited moveset this doesn't need to be a bad thing provided the majority of the game expects that you use the moveset to its full extent.

>Just admit it. The game is a novelty

For you. I replayed Furi two months ago because of how I enjoyed the style of boss fights. There's plenty of games I know with no actual replay value in terms of content or skill ceilings or whatever, but I do replay them because they're fun enough to me on their own.

>these giant walls of text

I hope you guys aren’t spending to much time on this. Wasting time arguing on the internet is horribly unproductive. You could be playing a video game instead.

>>15175177

>It would be poorly communicated without relying on another sort of intrusive tutorial message.

And like I said. There's more than 1 way to introduce a new mechanic in a game that doesn't force you to stop. Funnily enough the game could just replace the walking segments with a screen of text describing new abilities and it would probably be better off from it though. But this is usually why boss rush games fail. Because the stages before bosses often explain game mechanics and test you with them with the boss.

>It's certainly replayable enough to be played once again through Furier and to get most S-ranks.

Which is a completely baseless claim. Furier just speeds up attacks and removes health. The actual differences are so subtle that your going to be kicking yourself for thinking that the devs might actually put effort into a NG+ mode.

>Like, what makes The Song so identical to The Line that both of them come off as only minor variations to eachother?

The fact that both of them have bullet hell segments and do nothing to actually curve what you've already known about the game. You're just more careful dashing because there's a bottomless pit. You're barely even curving your playstyle in it.

>as half of the stuff you bring up against Furi (limited movesets, no diversity in attacks) applies to most bullet hells out the

The difference is that bullet hell games are built around this concept. They're also much longer and are focused on more complicated patterns while having super abilities or screen clears. Bullet hell games also focus on the extremely limited abilities and don't fuck it up by completely changing the genre. What works for a bullet hell game wouldn't work for a game focused around melee. Which is what Furi keeps trying to do without realizing this.

>despite the plethora of different attacks the game does throw at you?

You mean the same attacks with slight variations? There's no "plethora" if the only way you can counter them is with the same basic attacks.

>And why is that?

id you not read the following sentence? The difficulty isn't an excuse for the same attacks being repeated over and over again. Another reason would be how short the game is. Which means those same attacks are encountered far more often on subsequent playthroughs.

>If the problem for you is that Furi is too easy, then go play it on Furier.

I did play on Furier. And it was boring despite being hard. And even so most bullet hell games ARE more difficult than Furi. But normalfags never go near that shit unlike furi.

>The degree to which you can kill a boss faster is also directly proportional to how good you are at the game.

Which was never my point at all. How "good" you are doesn't matter when it's still a linear battle with no variation.

>There's a satisfying feeling of player growth when remembering how this

>>15178462

boss used to constantly kick your ass when you first encountered it, only for you to now make your boss its bitch and skip a lot of its attacks on Furier

If you genuinely didn't know that you could snipe through 3 layers of shields or parry a dive attack that's on you. The fact that you're claiming that as "high level gaming" is laughable.

>it's more about player growth,

It's more about learning patterns actually. Player growth would assume you were learning things. You're just becoming proficient and timing. Which isn't entirely negative. But with how limited Furi is it becomes nothing special.

>Though this may not work out as well if challenge and perfecting skills to you does not equals to fun,

You're confusing challenge and skills with cheap difficulty and muscle memory. The "challenge" in Furi is just becoming capable timing attacks. The game's more close to a rythem heaven clone than a fucking fighter.

>and fun for games in you are those eureka moments of discovery of how certain mechanics actually work

If you had a "eureka" moment when you figured out that you could shoot an enemy when its shield was down you may still be in the 3rd grade education region.

>The fact that you even have to ask shows your limited understanding of the genre

You're the one who asked a basic question here moron. Every example you're citing isn't even related to Furi anyway.

>Cuphead is similar in a lot of ways to Furi in that it's got a limited moveset but bosses which challenge you on that moveset in many different ways,

Cuphead has several times more abilities than Furi. The problem is 95% of them are useless. Once agin you're relating shit that isn't relative. Jesus fuck stop bringing up other games

faggot. Do you want to have more than 1 game at the focus here? We're already at 3 posts per reply.

>If a boss can be stunlocked then it's often possible to infinitely stunlock him

How many times do I need to reiterate the fact that not all games work in the closed space you seem to think they do? Jesus fuck there's more than 1 way to balance being able to stunlock a boss. How about stunlocking them once moves them into a different phase where they can't be stunlocked in the same manor? How about making a stunlock require a series of actions that sacrifice time? Maybe make the actual stunlock segments only allow a certain amount of damage to occur? And yet here you are citing a bunch of offtopic games because they're the only thing you can rely on in your argument.

>only that it's a poor fit for 1v1 combat

You're preaching that games can be unique and therefore objectively good. And now you're preaching that a unique feature in a game isn't a good thing becauseyou don't agree with in it.

>It's why combo systems for 1v1 fights (in singleplayer) would start to feel redundant, because you'd only use the combo which deals the highest DPS

Almost like most games that have this either have a score system that detracts if you abuse the same combo over and over again, or good AI that knows how to evade the same combo over and over again.

>>15175300

I'll spoonfeed you on this since every time one of these discussions occur there's always 1 faggot who posts something similar to what you posted.

Giant wall of text posts are what allows /v/ to progress from petty arguments to actually cementing an consensus on a game through facts and exploratory dialog. The Overwatch threads might still be around if that 1 blessed autist had never actually went out of his way to go through why the game was bad on a point by point basis. It proved that the only people who played Overwatch were casuals who didn't actually have a reason as to why the game was shit because to this day we've never gotten a proper response to it. They just wanted to use the game as a social hub for faggotry like most ASSFAGGOTS or DayZ clone fanbases do. And they just whined that it was the /v/ equivalent to a filibuster which just further proved them wrong.

>>15178483

>an consensus

Lol, stopped reading there you faggy redditor. Go back.

Every single time we have a thread about this game there is always this one autistic diaper shitter reeeing that it isn't an RPG where you level up and unlock more moves, disregarding the entire point of the gameplay which is to use a small set of moves to their maximum potential.

>>15178467

The charge shot is useful for clearing enemy bullets, since it does splash damage without moving you. It can also be used to hit your opponent for extra damage right after they come out of invincibility.

>A charge abilities is usually one of the most satisfying things a game can have for its risk and reward mechanic. And it's squandered in Furi.

What about the other two charge abilities?

>6 abilities

I assume you're excluding the cutscene attack and the laserbeam, but that still leaves 7 abilities. What, you can't remember the game's tiny moveset?

Do you play as a nigger? I can't tell.

>>15172735

It's normal for the numbers to continue to go down as more people buy the game.

>>15178462

>Furier just speeds up attacks and removes health

Now you're just talking out of your ass. Many attacks are revised to not just be faster, but to also include more projectiles and to change the types of existing ones, add more properties to existing attacks, and to entirely change the impact some attacks have on how you approach a boss. A lot of shockwave and damage zone attacks are also much wider to have you use the charged dash more often, as you don't charge dash very often in Furi. Existing attacks can have shockwaves added on top, and shockwave attacks get even more shockwaves. This becomes a big deal for something like The Hand's rotating damage zone attack, as you not only have to keep running in a circle that's too fast to just run around as you need to frequently dash forwards to keep up, but with an additional shockwave you also need to properly position and time your dashes so you don't hit either More spreadshot attacks include tougher bullets or uncancelable bullets to make them not so easily cancelable so you have to rely on your Charge Shot more or to position yourself better. The free spaces for 'pie slice' attacks in the melee phases tend to be more narrow, and bosses frequently employ more fakeout melee attacks or parriable projectiles within melee phases.

For example, for The Line's first phase, on Furi difficulty he'll routinely launch an aimed damage zone at you which you can strafe around, but on Furier he launches four damage zones across the whole arena which remain there, locking you into a pie slice of the arena and placing the onus more on canceling the incoming bullets rather than circlestrafing around, until he launches another four damage zones in the existing four safe pie slices of the arena which also has you try and dash through the zones while taking in account all the projectiles on the field. On Furi you can just cancel the bullets of the drones for The Burst, but on Furier they fire spreads of uncancelable bullets which you need to either parry or dash through. On Furier she also starts firing her shockwave bullets in larger groups, and her explosion attack of detonating four shockwaves across the arena simultaneously now also has three additional red shockwaves included in the blast to make the gaps between shockwaves even smaller. The Song will often fire a straight laser on Furi, but on Furier her laser is two-pronged, meaning you have to dash twice in quick succession, which can be difficult considering the amount of precision required to dashing (what with being tied to on release input rather than on press), as she uses her two-pronged laser for all her phases. And so on.

>The fact that both of them have bullet hell segments and do nothing to

In The Line's first and final phase, the amount of bullets on screen often get so dense that that your shots are being blocked by other projectiles before they can even hit the main targets, so the best option here is to often use the Charge Shot to clear as many bullets and hit the target at the same time (while I did say the Charge Shot felt useless overall, that's because it's more useful defensively than offensively. You're going to use it more often for clearing bullets than dealing damage as your regular shot is more reliable for that, and it's unfortunately only in The Line fight that the Charge Shot really shines). Then the final phase in The Song is a combination of avoiding/clearing waves of bullets, shockwaves, airstrikes from above, and rotating lasers as you have to destroy four targets at each end of the arena. The lasers need to be dashed through horizontally while waves need to be dashed through forwards, and when they both are about to hit you at the same time, you have to improvise. Then take in account the incoming bullets and airstrikes constantly denying you space, giving you a lot to keep track of at once. Bullet canceling does not play as much of a major role here, as on Furier half of the bullets The Song sends out will be uncancelable.

They are both bullet hell segments, but your argument merely makes a surface-level connection between them and not in the actual split-second decision-making involved or the actual design for the attack patterns. Rather, the only argument you provide here is that they are boring because they utilize the same attack types across multiple bosses, with each individual attack types being dealt with the same way in most incarnations it appears in, but you completely disregard how these multiple attacks synergize to provide an unique challenge, making your criticism ultimately shallow when it comes to boss design. You'd have a stronger leg to rely on if you could actually break down why a boss is 'boring', why the designed challenge does not in fact work and why it makes for a shit fight.

>>15180834

>The difference is that bullet hell games are built around this concept. They're also much longer and are focused on more complicated patterns

You only assume this, but you do not even know exactly what makes a good bullet hell and why the bullet hell segments in Furi would be worse in comparison. I don't think you have ever even seriously played a bullet hell game. Instead the only arguments you provide here are that they must be better because they focus entirely on being bullet hell and because they are more difficult. Which says nothing on what makes a bullet hell actually good, and how it would apply to Furi.

>What works for a bullet hell game wouldn't work for a game focused around melee. Which is what Furi keeps trying to do without realizing this

You'll have to actually elaborate on this, since there are plenty of bullet hells out there which feature some kind of melee attack and do make it work. It's not like you have to use melee attacks while dodging bullets simultaneously in Furi, so I don't even know where you are even coming from here.

>How "good" you are doesn't matter when it's still a linear battle with no variation

That would be The Line, which is the worst boss in the game. For that boss, there's always only one way of dealing damage, and that is to shoot the central pillar. For this fight, the degree to which you can damage him is completely linear. Unlike most bosses, there's only like two ways to speed up the fight. You can parry some bullets back, but they deal only minor damage. You can speedrun through the first phase with his three shields, but it requires pixel perfect timing to actually get a shot through all three layers with just one hole, making it wholly impractical to do unless you have the exact timings memorized, meaning you're left with one minute of holding down the right stick upwards until enough shields disappear.

There's very little room to optimize for faster times here, you can't exploit windows of vulnerabilities to sneak in more damage, you can't play more aggressively to strike bosses more often, and you can't really use all of your abilities at once. The timestop phase is kind of an exception because like in embed related, instead of only attacking after he sends three waves at you like most people would, you can immediately attack him and get him in a combo in order to get to the next phase faster. But because most of the time you're shooting a static unflinching pillar for The Line, they don't try to make it much harder for you to actually damage it, like how a boss will constantly move around or counter with bullets of his own.

The amount to which you can optimize may not be the deepest, but it's still there nonetheless, and the fastest way to beat the boss is not immediately laid out for the player, with some not being intended by the devs at all. It's still something you have to figure out for yourself, and I have seen several strategies on some speedrun videos not featured in most normal videos. A new WR was just achieved 12 days ago.

>Almost like most games that have this either have a score system that detracts if you abuse the same combo over and over again

That's not the issue, the problem here is allowing an enemy to be infinitely stunlocked. Regardless of whether there's a score system, people playing for survival can still cheese through the game using infinite combos. Unless there's some measure in place to allow enemies to break out of combos, stunlocking becomes horribly broken. In Furi, enemies become invincible after you knock them down to prevent you from dealing way too much damage at once.

>Like Furi. You just can't dash through specific items.

Positioning matters. Cuhrazy games very rarely focus on positioning when it comes to defending yourself against attacks (and when they do it often comes off as gimmicky) because of how much of an universal solution the dodge moves tend to be. Here not only the direction you dash in matters, but sometimes you're also expected to dash multiple times in quick successions, or to make several precision dashes through attacks, or to incorporate charged dashes as well. You can't just spam dash in Furi like you can spam parry in MGR. Your positioning being important for avoiding damage allows Furi to throw more attacks with you which are more involving to evade, in order to make up for your offensive capabilities in Furi being comparatively limited.

>>15181491

>en by your own metric The Beat and The Star are worse bosses for restrictive ways to attack them and linear natures

To me, the Star and The Line are a toss-up for the worst bosses in Furi. They both suffer from a lot of the same problems, though with The Star you can at least angle your laser to hit multiple hands at once to deal more damage. You can also use your laser to temporarily disable the drones on the side to make some phases easier on yourself. It's not much, but it's there.

With The Line's first phase you need to memorize the exact rotations and timings of when to punch a hole in the shields in order to skip the first phase, else the alternative is spending one minute shooting at the shields, which is rather extreme. The first part of the second and third phase are way too linear for dealing damage (save for the incoming bullets, you will be constantly laying down fire on the central pillar without being obstructed), whereas the timestop in the second part of the second phase is also recycled for the third phase, but with orange bullets spawning in (which doesn't make much of a difference if you were using the Charge Shot to clear them out anyways), where the only thing you can really do is speed the timestop phase up by attacking The Line before he launches his waves. Though there's at least the CQC phases to allow for some player expression. On the other hand, I do think The Line's last phase is really good by really testing your ability to cancel bullets and try to hit a target amidst all the other bullets, which isn't that straightforward to do given the amount of bullets on-screen blocking your path. If the first phase could be skipped more easily or at least didn't take forever to get going, this boss wouldn't have pissed me off as much.

I think The Star ekes out by being more interesting and challenging to defend against, as it more involves dodging around uncancelable bullets manually where dashing isn't an option, and then dashing in very confined spaces. It's at least more consistent in terms of challenge across all its phases than The Line, I'd say. It's still sucky because there's next to no room for player expression for The Star, though.

The Beat I can kind of excuse for story reasons, but with The Beat the gist is more about speedrunning through the platforming sections than it is about the combat itself (it's actually kind of tricky when you're trying to go for an S-Rank). It's still a weak boss for the most part because the actual combat is very straightforward and easy (on purpose) compared to everything you've been through before, but by letting you dash through the platforming sections at your own pace you can at least make an effort to get better and go faster to speed things up instead of having to wait passively. The more room there is for speeding things up in a game like this, the more room there is for player agency and player growth. That's usually the case in most games where speedrunning does not rely on glitches, but just playing the game as normal but really fast.

(Bernard >) The Flame > The Burst > The Strap > The Song > The Scale > The Hand > The Chain > The Edge > The Beat > The Star > The Line

Okay, I played Furi a while back and enjoyed it, but what the fuck is with the retard who constantly shows up the rare instances the game gets mentioned and starts throwing up walls of text to "defend" a game that's not even under attack? Furi was good, the walking between bosses segments sucked a fat nut, though.

>>15179815

The point remains and gets even more relevant

>>15179830

White facial features, blue eyes, but his hair looks all niggardly.

Must be a design discrepancy or some 56%er.

>>15179172

>B-but facts don't mean anything!

Stay mad nigger. God forbid people discuss things while others agree or disagree with them.

>>15179761

>The charge shot is useful for clearing enemy bullets, since it does splash damage without moving you

Rapid fire works fine in the same way though. And you're often just dashing anyway.

>What, you can't remember the game's tiny moveset?

I just said 6 since people would bitch a to what is and isn't an ability in the game.

>Now you're just talking out of your ass.

And you're picking up things I say to specificly. I never stated that was what it did exclusively. Just that it's the major difference and the rest are pretty minor in comparison.

>but to also include more projectiles and to change the types of existing ones

So copy pasta shit the devs threw together on a weekend. Good to know.

>the amount of bullets on screen often get so dense that that your shots are being blocked by other projectiles before they can even hit the main targets

Compare this to actual bullet hell games where your nearly pinholed half the time.

>Then the final phase in The Song is a combination of avoiding/clearing waves of bullets, shockwaves, airstrikes from above, and rotating lasers as you have to destroy four targets at each end of the arena

So basically what every other boss does with slight variations. Like I stated earlier.

> but your argument merely makes a surface-level connection between them and not in the actual split-second decision-making involved or the actual design for the attack patterns

Just like your surface level connections for every other game you bring up and think of as a justifiable argument? Even so the "split second" decision making isn't even done well. The precision from actual bullet hell games aren't in Furi, where the preferred control type is a 360 controller.

>but you completely disregard how these multiple attacks synergize to provide an unique challenge

They synergize sure. But they don't variate enough to make the claim that they're independent from boss to boss. You're still engaging with your limited abilities to the same attacks. If you're going to complain that my points are shallow then immediately use the same phrases and terms for each attack the enemies use you're only proving my point here.

>but you do not even know exactly what makes a good bullet hell and why the bullet hell segments in Furi would be worse in comparison.

What, besides the fat that I just fucking stated why? Furi is not built around being a bullet hell game. It's built around being a game with a bunch of genre's shoved into it. Thus it doesn't work purely as a bullet hell game. And the final boss was a great example of why it was such a mediocre addition in the first place.

>You'll have to actually elaborate on this, since there are plenty of bullet hells out there which feature some kind of melee attack and do make it work.

Well for one you aren't limited by ground movement. So there's more focus on smooth input which frees up your character to pull off graceful movements which allow for much more freedom with combo's, supers, point curshing, proximity, ect. Furi could probably have all of this as well , even with it being on the ground. But it's like I said before. It's not focused enough on being a bullet hell game to actually make use of anything that make Bullet hell games unique or interesting.

>That would be The Line, which is the worst boss in the game.

It's every fucking b>there's always only one way of dealing damage, and that is to shoot the central pillar

As apposed to the half a dozen other ways that you're only given 3 of per battle if you're lucky because they restrict them for some retarded reason?

>You can speedrun through the first phase with his three shields, but it requires pixel perfect timing to actually get a shot through all three layers with just one hole

And I already stated that this sort of mentality is what comes off as a piss poor excuse of calling the game "diverse" in how you can kill a boss. It doesn't take a genius to realize that you can cut through shield layers to attack the core without destroying every shield. Jesus fuck Metroid Prime did that shit better.

>There's very little room to optimize for faster times here,

Which should have been an afterthought compared to actually being able to actually effect the battle in a more meaningful way.

>A new WR was just achieved 12 days ago.

For the .0005% of people who play the game to this extent I'm sure that's great news. To the rest of the world who just want to play a good game that's not even a half baked excuse for why the game is worth replaying.

>Positioning matters.

Not when that's the case for every fucking action game in existence. This isn't a point for why the game isn't mediocre. It's just one affirming for why it is if anything.

>>15181491

>You don't need a wallpost to know Overcuck is a shit game; its easy to know that Overcuck is shit, because it is shit.

We have people who say Mario Odyssey is a fantastic game with barely any flaws. They make threads about as well. If you genuinely think that people here aren't retarded enough to not just assume something that looks, smells and tastes like shit then you're mistaking. The Overwatch threads stayed for several months before somebody actually took the time to discuss what was actually bad about it to shut the faggots up who had shallow excuses for it.

>but needing affirmation that a game is shit by a consensus is quite frankly a reddit mindset on things.

And not adding any opinion at all only affirms that the people who like the game in the first place are free to lurk here.

>instead of finding common ground and addressing the core points of contention.

If you use facts there are no common grounds.

>Most of the time it's just a way to let off steam when you have fuck all else to do.

Speak for yourself. If the first thing you think of when people go on to a board dedicated to discussing video games and actually discuss vieo games and that the sole reason for this is to offload pent of frustration you're retarded.

>To imply that a 'consensus' opinion is formed based on singular posts

Consensus (in a perfect world) should rely on facts. If you're trying to state that meaningful discussion can't affect the positions of others I don't know why the fuck you're even posting. Since by your logic everything you just said has no bearing on anything what so ever.

>>15183894

fourth greentext and on meant for >>15180834 obviously

>>15183894

>Rapid fire works fine in the same way though. And you're often just dashing anyway

Not really, because The Line also starts throwing stronger bullets at you which require more shots to take down, whereas a Charge Shot can clear those and every other bullet in its line of fire in one shot. However, regular rapid fire has a higher DPS, but it is hampered by all the bullets on-screen, so ideally a combination is required.

> Even so the "split second" decision making isn't even done well. The precision from actual bullet hell games aren't in Furi, where the preferred control type is a 360 controller.

You are not even making any sense here. The Xbox 360 used to be the main platform for shmups of all types in the previous generation. Moreover, pixel-perfect movement precision is largely not required in Furi because you can cancel or parry a lot of the incoming bullets anyways, and most said precision pertained to dash positioning and timing which is accurate enough as it is, save for dashes being an on-release function. Even the attacks The Star throws at you are comparatively not that dense or expectant of superprecise micrododging to make it feel like the controls are actively hampering you.

>They synergize sure. But they don't variate enough to make the claim that they're independent from boss to boss

How do they not? One only needs to look at the final phase of each boss to see what different stakes there are at play. The arenas themselves can also change dynamically beyond The Strap, like how The Burst can make walls rise, how The Scale can divide the field into a game of tic-tac-toe, how the pier for The Edge is fully 2D, how The Hand can put up damage zones to shrink your area of freedom to the center, how The Line spams bullets everywhere, and how The Beat is one giant platforming section.

>It's built around being a game with a bunch of genre's shoved into it. Thus it doesn't work purely as a bullet hell game. And the final boss was a great example of why it was such a mediocre addition in the first place.

You're right, though you're slightly off the mark. It's not so much that bullet hell segments as means of obstacles on their own mean that a boss is terrible, but it's because there was very little room for optimization for The Star, which normally the presence of melee combat compensates for. It also wasn't as bullet canceling-reliant as the final phase of The Line, so attack and defense become very linear with little room for player expression.

>Well for one you aren't limited by ground movement

what

In shmups this is just an aesthetic choice because the playing field is 2D anyways, this was never a limitation.

>So there's more focus on smooth input which frees up your character to pull off graceful movements which allow for much more freedom with combo's, supers, point curshing, proximity, ect

> It's not focused enough on being a bullet hell game to actually make use of anything that make Bullet hell games unique or interesting

what the fuck

Most shmups don't even have that shit, even those which feature melee attacks. What are you even talking about here? Fighting games? If this is a very roundabout way of saying that Furi has no air game, then that's right, but the camera in Furi is isometric to give you a better view of all the incoming attacks. Trying to launch enemies into the air with a camera like this would be very iffy, whereas vice versa you wouldn't be able to see incoming waves and projectiles properly.

>It doesn't take a genius to realize that you can cut through shield layers to attack

I don't know why you keep hammering on this. It's only one example out of many. It's naturally obvious, but much harder to put into practice. Else everybody would be doing it.

>then immediately use the same phrases and terms for each attack

There's shockwaves, lasers, and a bunch of other stuff (things you need to dash through), damage zones (things you can't always dash through but just need to avoid), there's bullets (things you need to avoid, dash through, cancel or parry), and there's melee attacks (things you need to parry). They're the main attack archetypes. Of course every attack is going to inherit from them, but to use that as an argument for limited attack variety is just being disingenuous.

>compared to actually being able to actually effect the battle in a more meaningful way.

If the only goal is to kill the enemy, then doing it in the fastest way possible or without taking damage are the only metrics of skill available. Consider that getting hit temporarily staggers you, so both metrics overlap. The only dominant strategies that can exist are those for survival at any costs and those for speedkilling. Everything else is just fluff.

>>15187203

>limited moveset

I think it's only limited pertaining to offensive capabilities (in a very vague comparison to some other games which may or may have nothing to do with Furi). Defensively I don't think it's smaller than most games out there, as normally defensive moves come in the shape of jump/block/dash/dodge/move (strafe)/parry/other movement options/other attacks which deal actual damage as well. At least it is in action games, overall it can vary greatly.

Quite frankly, I don't think the melee or ranged combat in Furi needs to be expanded (there's some changes I'd suggest here and there, but I don't think any dramatic overhauls are needed to improve things). The crux to dealing damage in Furi is exploiting windows of vulnerability. You are given essentially one ranged and one melee option for doing so, with additional functions such as boost or charging allowing you to charge extra damage at the risk of limiting mobility when the boss is invulnerable to damage anyways. The degree to which you can exploit a window is not very important. The important thing is that you're getting an attack in at all.

When you manage to hit a boss with your sword, they're usually stunned and cannot respond (sometimes they will break out with an attack of their own), a state which they only exit after you finish your combo. Now you could have dozens of melee attack options, but that wouldn't really matter, because the only thing that matters while the boss is vulnerable is getting in as much damage as possible. Even if I had a fuckton of combo opportunities, I would only ever use the most damaging one in Furi. All the other options just obscure the learning curve when the end result is the most damaging combo in particular. For this reason, it makes sense there is only a single combo in the game, one condensed way of dealing damage to the boss with your sword while they are vulnerable. If a dominant strategy is an inevitable result, than many options will end up being useless, and you might as well start cutting stuff out. You could have scoring systems and whatever to counteract this, but at that point you need to add other systems to give an expanded combo system a reason to exist, whereas it wouldn't add much in practice on its own. And if you do start adding shit on top of other shit to justify its existence, you wind up with a completely different game.

Similarly, you could have a bunch of different ranged weapons at once, but if the nature of your target always remains the same (one human-sized target), then that already takes a hit on the roles your weapons could cover. Maybe some weapons work better on other bosses, but then you face the problem Cuphead had where most weapons were useless in general save for this specific boss because of the nature of its weakpoint. Your gun in Furi is then wholly adequate to actually hit the boss and cancel bullets, any sidegrades would be highly situational.

While the method of dealing damage through melee is very linear, finding the windows to deal damage in isn't. Considering this, other melee attack options would need to have a function other than dealing damage. The charge functions are a great addition because they let you charge extra damage outside these windows of opportunities, making them actually worthwhile to use. So while it's easy to say that Furi needs more tools, it also needs additional reasons for those tools to exist, and in the process such suggestions would change the entire fabric of the game. The idea that more depth = more fun becomes silly if you try to stretch that statement to its logical extremes, whereas one of Furi's main draws is its minimalism resembling 90's action games. And when I look at your posts, when I see your reasoning for why Furi is an utter bore, I can hardly imagine that you would like any action game made in that period, either because of a biased point of view where every game needs to be super-deep in some way, or because you judge 'variety' through the weirdest standards, since not even Cuphead managed to satisfy you.

>Not when that's the case for every fucking action game in existence

Most action games don't really force you to move around all over the place the same way Furi does, usually because in most cases you have a very lenient i-frame dodge roll move you can rely on to evade every single attack with no regard to your position in the level, because most levels in action games tend to be flat arenas, often because the combat and camera work better in larger spaces. In Furi you actually have to think where you have to dodge.

>>15187203

>whereas a Charge Shot can clear those and every other bullet in its line of fire in one shot.

And a charge shot essentially wastes time. If you're good enough you're capable of mitigated the 2 or 3 more bullets coming at you.

>The Xbox 360 used to be the main platform for shmups of all types in the previous generation.

And most of which were shit.

>not required in Furi because you can cancel or parry a lot of the incoming bullets anyways

And as I said before, parries a garbage mechanic and cancelling is useless when you can just dash.

>not required in Furi because you can cancel or parry a lot of the incoming bullets anyways

Never said they were. Which is the problem. Because you're on a 360 controller you aren't given that extra challenge due to the limited control method.

>One only needs to look at the final phase of each boss to see what different stakes there are at play.

Which don't go far enough.

>like how The Burst can make walls rise

The second boss does this as well. And raising walls barely constitute as a high degree of variety. The game's method of "altering" a stage is to add points where there's either a wall or a pit.

>how the pier for The Edge is fully 2D

And also limited your moveset which was a piss trade off.

>The Hand can put up damage zones to shrink your area of freedom to the center

No different than the pits from the song. In the end it's still a danger zone that basically says "don't dash here".

>which normally the presence of melee combat compensates for.

But the melee combat is absolute trash. It's just a series of parrying, that's fucking it. Might as well be a QTE segment.

>In shmups this is just an aesthetic choice because the playing field is 2D anyways

Yes but you're not actually hindered by ground movement. As in there's no focus on that apect so there's more room to play around. Imagine how much more you would be able to do in Furi if you could hover and you'll understand what I mean.

>Most shmups don't even have that shit,

And most shmups are shit.

>but the camera in Furi is isometric to give you a better view of all the incoming attacks

Not much of a point when most bullet hell games are zoomed out far more than Furi.

>Trying to launch enemies into the air with a camera like this would be very iffy,

Not my fault the devs implemented something poorly.

>It's only one example out of many

The other examples are "parry this attack" or "shoot while they're charging an attack or have their shield down. That makes up the majority of "optimization". Which is why I'm hammering that the game doesn't have much diversity in its play style.

>There's shockwaves, lasers

Add energy balls and you have the majority of the attacks in the game.

>damage zones (

As in walls, pits and actual zones that just damage you. The games just a series of shallow obstacles.

>and there's melee attacks

Which is such a weak segment of the game it's a negative point.

>They're the main attack archetypes

Barely

>but to use that as an argument for limited attack variety is just being disingenuous.

You basically just listed all of them in 2 sentences. Seriously now?

>If the only goal is to kill the enemy, then doing it in the fastest way possible or without taking damage are the only metrics of skill available

This is like arguing that going in a straight line is the only possible means to make a game enjoyable in a platformer. God forbid a game actually build itself around entertaining the player, rather than just autistically optimize everything that's fun about it.

>I think it's only limited pertaining to offensive capabilities

Which for a game like furi I'm not for. It's possible to have a game with a limited move set. But in a game like furi, which is already a very straightforward and plot fluffed game. It brings it down.

>Quite frankly, I don't think the melee or ranged combat in Furi needs to be expanded

Melee absolutely does. Parry's are becoming the new QTE's. It's nothing but timing based with no strategy.

But even then the Melee and Ranged could have been put to better use. Either by making some of the stages useful for either, such as targets that needed to be hit in order to progress the fight, or using melee in conjunction with a charged dash for a complete break in the enemies defense ect. There was plenty of room for combining or expanding on your abilities but the game did nothing to actually do so.

>Now you could have dozens of melee attack options

Not really no.

>>15195860

>Even if I had a fuckton of combo opportunities, I would only ever use the most damaging one in Furi.

It's almost like I already addressed this. Make bosses weaker to specific combo's during specific moments. Or have their AI predict what your next move will be if you keep repeating it and parry you instead. Or have their weight be detrimental towards if you could actually get an air combo on them. There's hundreds of possibilities when it comes to combo's and as I said before, it's not even necessary to have them in the first place. It's just 1 thing the devs could have added to add more depth to such a shallow game.

>All the other options just obscure the learning curve

As in, the game adds a challenge and you have to try to figure it out. There's nothing wrong with this concept. At it's core it's one of the highest concepts of game design.

>one condensed way of dealing damage to the boss with your sword while they are vulnerable.

Which would work if this was a platformer. But it's not. When your ONLY objective in a game is to deal damage to 1 enemy at a time you should at the very least add more than 1 simple way to break down that HP bar.

>If a dominant strategy is an inevitable result, than many options will end up being useless

It's called balancing your game. Every idea I've brought up has methods of doing so.

>You could have scoring systems and whatever to counteract this, but at that point you need to add other systems to give an expanded combo system a reason to exist

Are you trying to say it's impossible to have a point and a combo system at once here? How does this even make sense?

>whereas it wouldn't add much in practice on its own

You cam to this conclusion all by yourself? If you don't have the imagination or experience to actually weigh weather something is feasible or not why are you even bothering with this line of thought? I mean I can't blame you for not listing all 101 ways a combo system won't work. But from my experience playing combo heavy games it would absolutely work in a game like Furi given the right mindset.

>And if you do start adding shit on top of other shit to justify its existence, you wind up with a completely different game.

A better game than we got.

>but if the nature of your target always remains the same

There's that limited imagination again. Why should they? Who's to say the enemy's "waves" can't be color coded for a specific weapon that you can switch out? Quacamelee had a similar concept with color coded melee and it was actually pretty engaging. And there were plenty of segments that had you fighting enemies 1 on 1 with that color coding.

Color coding not work? Alright how about simply altering your weapon from a spread shot to a straight shot with a single button. That way your bullet hell segments will be easier to deal with and there will be more room for preference.

>The charge functions are a great addition because they let you charge extra damage outside these windows of opportunities,

Which never has any real payoff as I described earlier.

>it also needs additional reasons for those tools to exist, and in the process such suggestions would change the entire fabric of the game

Which is fine because as I said before. What we got is a novelty.

>The idea that more depth = more fun becomes silly if you try to stretch that statement to its logical extremes

More depth for a game like Furi is exactly what it needs however. This isn't true for many games, but it absolutely is for Furi. On the other hand. If your ok with this concept of less depth. Then simply price the game at half of what it was, remove the plot entirely, simplify the artstyle to be more manageable and release the game as a short little title for people to enjoy for a few hours before moving on. Because as it is Furi is way to ambitious for what it actually is.

>Furi's main draws is its minimalism resembling 90's action games.

Considering the artstyle, overbearing dialog and plot, new wave mediocre music, sure. It's a game that resembles the 90's. Which just goes back to why I'm calling this a NOVELTY game.

>I can hardly imagine that you would like any action game made in that period

As you said yourself. Furi isn't "like" any game. SO by this logic I don't have to really gratify that statement with an answer.

>either because of a biased point of view where every game needs to be super-deep in some way, or because you judge 'variety' through the weirdest standards

I think you're just projecting your own side of view here. Furi's mediocre because it's a series of things that don't mesh well together that happen to not have any depth in any of them. It's also weighed down with a plot that's insufferably in your fae all the time.

>>15195862

>Most action games don't really force you to move around all over the place the same way Furi does

They do actually.

>usually because in most cases you have a very lenient i-frame dodge roll move you can rely on to evade every single attack with no regard to your position in the level

You mean like dashing does outside of the few attacks that you can't dash through?

>because most levels in action games tend to be flat arenas

Nig, almost half the stages in furi are just that. And the ones that aren't have sparsely raised walls or bottomless pits.

>In Furi you actually have to think where you have to dodge

Just like most games.

>>15195872

They happen in games that are contentious in whether they are good or not. Or in a situation life furi, are just ok. Still, I think it's a better and more productive solution to just calling somebody a faggot as an argument.

walls of text are the purest form of vidya discussion, prove me wrong so I can post another wall of text counter proving you wrong

>>15195860

>And a charge shot essentially wastes time

The Charge Shot can cancel bullets in a much larger radius (essentially most bullets in front of you) and can clear more bullets quicker with it than the regular shot. If you're trying to do (the last phase of) The Line without it, you're doing it wrong.

>cancelling is useless

I don't know how you got to this conclusion when bullet canceling is downright required against some attacks, like The Chain/The Star/The Burst/The Line's final phases where you can't dash without dashing into another bullet and have to carve your way out through the bullets.

>Which don't go far enough.

Does that honestly sound convincing to you? Every time I press on your arguments for why Furi doesn't have "enough" you always return to this, as you keep handwaving it away without really explaining why or coming up with viable suggestions on your own. If variety is that quantifiable, there should be a point where it could be varied

>The game's method of "altering" a stage is to add points where there's either a wall or a pit

That's basically what arena design comes down to, save for introducing interactables like in The Strap, even though I think it was poorly implemented there. I think it takes away from bosses being source of all attacks, and would push Furi more towards gimmick puzzle territory where the gist is to figure out what this interactable does and how to use it against the boss properly, like some shitty FPS puzzle boss. Using the interactables in The Strap isn't a case of skill, but just knowledge. Interactables like those would make more sense had they been expounded into a proper mechanic in a proper stage beforehand (or from the start of the game), but since Furi has no stages I don't blame the game for the lack of interactables.

Even so, the actual arena design is of minor consequence when the bosses can essentially shape it using their own attacks.

>You basically just listed all of them in 2 sentences.

I'm not sure why two wouldn't be enough.

>Imagine how much more you would be able to do in Furi if you could hover and you'll understand what I mean

I don't know what the hell you are talking about. You do use a hoversuit for the fight against The Star, but it's just purely aesthetical.

>This is like arguing that going in a straight line is the only possible means to make a game enjoyable in a platformer

I don't… what? What the fuck are you on about?

>such as targets that needed to be hit in order to progress the fight

The Line? The Song?

>using melee in conjunction with a charged dash for a complete break in the enemies defense

what is the Charged Slash

I'm seriously starting to doubt you have actually played the game, or are just remembering it poorly.

>When your ONLY objective in a game is to deal damage to 1 enemy at a time you should at the very least add more than 1 simple way to break down that HP bar.

You have your ranged and your close-range options with charge functions for both and a parry for countering. For Furi that's essentially all you need, the rest is just fluff.

>Are you trying to say it's impossible to have a point and a combo system at once here?

The idea is that only a combo system added on its own to Furi as it is would be poorly balanced, because it would need additional systems to make combos other than the most damaging one worth using, because with the limited windows of opportunities you have against bosses, only the most damaging combos have a reason to be used (sometimes you want to end a combo with a half-charged slash which deals less damage, but doesn't knock down the boss into an invincibility state so you don't have to wait for the boss to get up, at other times when you're close to finishing off the boss you want to just use the regular most damaging fourth hit in the combo).

Each combo would need to have its own utility to be worth using in the first place, else there's no point to them. Forcing the player to use different combos for whatever reasons does not take away that normally you wouldn't be using these combos at all if the game didn't force you by preventing you from using the best one.

>If you don't have the imagination or experience to actually weigh weather something is feasible or not why are you even bothering with this line of thought?

I'm not saying it couldn't work, only that it would involve so many changes to Furi for those changes to work properly that we're no longer talking about improvements, but just changing the game so it resembles another game more suitable to our tastes. Furi is more like an intense combat rhythm game than it is an in-depth hack and slasher. Not like deeper combat wouldn't work, it just never was the focus.

>>15200671

>Parry's are becoming the new QTE's. It's nothing but timing based with no strategy.

You might enjoy reading this

https://critpoints.net/2016/11/03/issuesjoys-of-parrying/

Furi isn't too different with parrying in that it's pure timing, however, remember how MatthewMatosis mentioned in his review of being unintentionally able to shoot while parrying and that it basically amounted to free damage because you could keep shooting the boss while parrying? So what you could do here, is then have the boss attack with a blockstring, but then have the boss spawn bullets around the player as well which need to be cleared with your gun while parrying at the same time. Instead of clearing all bullets immediately for the sake of safety, you could prioritize shooting the boss a bit before the bullets creep in. No changes to the core gameplay required, just a slight change to the tutorial maybe. The way parrying change won't work, only the circumstances surrounding it do, which is key to Furi's design philosophy.

>Which never has any real payoff as I described earlier.

They literally pay off in damage. The Boost function lets you charge up by standing still for a few seconds in an animation you can't immediately cancel out of (and should be used when the boss is knocked down or can't immediately fight back), and it amplifies the damage of your next hit by at least double, but the buff disappears if you get hit. The Charge Shot deals extra damage and is a good opener. The Charge Slash lets you travel huge distances and immediately stun a boss into a stun state from where you can initiate a Punish attack.

>color coded

Get the fuck out of here with that shit. If your balance is so shit that you need to take away the need for the player to evaluate the situation and pick the proper weapon for the situation, and then condescendingly force the player to use a specific weapon against a specific enemy because they would never use that weapon otherwise, then you should just go back to the drawing table.

DmC did this and it was the worst shit. What's the point of having all these weapons if there's only one for every different situation which can actually do shit?

>how about simply altering your weapon from a spread shot

It would make the charge shot useless as a means of clearing bullets because the spreadshot would have ridiculous area coverage, and it would make melee redundant in freeform phases because I imagine a spreadshot being able to deal ridiculous damage close-up, possibly outshining the sword. That's what the draw of a spreadshot is, anyways. Maybe that's some stuff you could give to a different player character, but otherwise there's no real point.

>More depth for a game like Furi is exactly what it needs however. This isn't true for many games, but it absolutely is for Furi

I don't really see why. Is this another one of those cases of ruined expectations where you saw the melee combat in Furi and expected DMC, only to be terribly disappointed? I mean, Furi is pretty much emulating a Treasure game for the most part (Treasure is even listed in the special thanks section of Furi's credits, and the parry-into-health mechanic was lifted straight from Alien Soldier) or to be more specific, minimalistic Japanese action games often seen in the /vr/ age, but nobody bemoans Treasure games for having little depth or no variety, despite most of their games having even smaller movesets than Furi's.

>Considering the artstyle, overbearing dialog and plot, new wave mediocre music, sure

Not the vaporwave kind of 90s, you're confusing it with the 80s for that matter. I'm talking about 90's action games like Alien Soldier, Contra: Hard Corps, Hagane, Sin & Punishment and Gunstar Heroes which could throw loads of bosses at you without missing a beat despite having small movesets. I don't understand how you could call Furi a novelty whereas you would (maybe) not do the same for the aforementioned.

>They do actually.

There's an obvious surface-level disconnect in how you avoid attacks in Furi and the Napishtim-era Ys games than in games like Dark Souls, DMC, Bayonetta, or Ninja Gaiden, the former relying more on bosses which can cover the entire arena in attacks and standing in safe spaces to avoid damage, the latter more on melee strikes or projectile attacks which need to be blocked or i-frame dodged through. Though Furi does partially emulate the latter through blockstrings which need to be parried through, the piechart attacks require you to dash to the safe slices rather than dashing itself giving you i-frames if you dash at the right time. Ys and Furi also have attacks where it can get bullet hell-ish and had to be moved around rather than simply dodged, Nier and Nier Automata tried doing that as well.

>>15200671

>>15200674

>The Charge Shot can cancel bullets in a much larger radius (essentially most bullets in front of you) and can clear more bullets quicker with it than the regular shot.

My point is regular fire is perfectly fine and any improvement charge shot has is inconsequential.

>The Charge Shot can cancel bullets in a much larger radius (essentially most bullets in front of you) and can clear more bullets quicker with it than the regular shot.

I mean it's a useless mechanic the game doesn't need.

>Every time I press on your arguments for why Furi doesn't have "enough" you always return to this

Because your offering nothing new to the subject

>as you keep handwaving it away without really explaining why or coming up with viable suggestions on your own.

Nigger, I've mentioned several alterations or differences such as combo's, combining abilities, stage resets, better uses of space. Where are you even coming from with this shit?

>That's basically what arena design comes down to

Oh so now there's a finite concept here? God forbid the game branch out and do something more diverse and original every stage.

>and would push Furi more towards gimmick puzzle territory

The game itself is already a gimmick. It might as well be more creative with them.

>and would push Furi more towards gimmick puzzle territory

It's like you think it's one or the other here. There's several things Furi could do to its arena's to be more engaging without making it purely a solveable puzzle. You could add more moving platforms, rotating belts, pits that lead to arena's with less space to maneuver, ect. Every time I bring up an idea you think you're countering it by placing it in an isolated concept that has no reason to apply to why it wouldn't actually work.

>Using the interactables in The Strap isn't a case of skill, but just knowledge

Combine it with a certain combo move that requires you to hit them in a certain spot of a wall which can only be obtained by knowing what combo to use depending on your location. Then you would feel obligated to use more variety in the combo's.

>Even so, the actual arena design is of minor consequence when the bosses can essentially shape it using their own attacks

With the same fucking attacks with little variety. We've been over this.

>I'm not sure why two wouldn't be enough

It's not.

>I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Legs mean intended methods of movement. Which is restrictive in Furi's case. It's not an impossible feat, but the devs didn't know how to put it to good use in furi.

>What the fuck are you on about?

I couldn't have been more clear. If a games only primary goal is speed and relies entirely on that concept to carry it then you're only going to be doing the same exact thing in the most joyless way possible. Which works for games like Dustforce when there's literally frame perfect tricks every corner and the skill ceiling is so high that barely anybody but a select few have even scraped it. Furi on the other had has no such skill ceiling. It's hard, but once you understand the tricks (which you will understand about 90% of them on your first playthrough)

there's not much more to the game other than repeating the same shit. And with the controls in Furi being so iffy, especially compared to actual bullet hell titles or fighting game titles you're essentially lacking in any actual depth in the game outside of the .01% of people who speedrun it.

>what is the Charged Slash

Completely fucking useless? Did you not read what I posted about how you should be able to use that shit for a more rewarding stunlock?

>ou have your ranged and your close-range options with charge functions for both and a parry for countering

Only when any of those are independently needed. As in, you're restricted from half of that shit during many segments of the boss fights.

>For Furi that's essentially all you need, the rest is just fluff

This is what I'm saying about your black and white mentality. Furi's a game that needs more depth. And the best way to achieve that is with more abilities or mechanics. If you genuinely think there's not a single conceivable way to add more meaningful mechanics to the game then you have a supremely pin holed scope for game design.

>The idea is that only a combo system added on its own to Furi as it is would be poorly balanced

No shit? When was this ever what I stated? Furi's a game that needs more than a singular mechanic anyway. As it is it's a drought of lasting entertainment.

>only the most damaging combos have a reason to be used

It's like I haven't stated several examples of what could be implemented to give combo's more variety or something. Re-read my posts. I went over many things that could be added.

>>15208275

>Forcing the player to use different combos for whatever reasons does not take away that normally you wouldn't be using these combos at all if the game didn't force you by preventing you from using the best one.

Good god I've gone crosseyed.

>You might enjoy reading this

So basically people are making articles about a mechanic itself. Kinda proves my point that it's become supersaturated and underdeveloped. The only time when it's improved is when it's in pure conjunction with another mechanic. Which basically means parrying's nearly useless on it's own. And needs to be propped up by something else to make make your QTE segments more useful. In the end however it's still a borderline QTE.

>So what you could do here

shoulda woulda.

>They literally pay off in damage.

Everything in that paragraph is objectively true. But so completely negligible and uncommon that it begs why the fuck the mechanic is even in there in the first place. Didn't you just go on about how bad fluff is?

>Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

Nigger I mentioned it as 1 possible fucking way to add variety to the game.

>If your balance is so shit that you need to take away the need for the player to evaluate the situation and pick the proper weapon for the situation, and then condescendingly force the player to use a specific weapon against a specific enemy because they would never use that weapon otherwise, then you should just go back to the drawing table.

Did you not just shit on FPS game bosses that have "puzzle" fights? Either you want a game with challenge over the need to over-evaluate what they are weak against or you want a game with pure instinct and discovery. Again with your black and white mentality.

>What's the point of having all these weapons if there's only one for every different situation which can actually do shit

Make them depend on combo's. Like Guacamelee did fairly well. Or use them as indicators for an enemies upcoming attack. Jeezes there's plenty of methods for it to work.

>It would make the charge shot useless as a means of clearing bullets because the spreadshot would have ridiculous area coverage

The charge shot already is useless so that's not much of a point. And how about making the straight shot and charge shot be alternated by a slider tool. As in. The longer you held down a button the more focused the charged shot would become while letting go grew it into a spread shot again. By making the alternation between the 2 a bit lengthy you can put more strategy into whether or not you should commit to it during a specific situation. I mean, this is just ONE idea.

>>15208277

>Is this another one of those cases of ruined expectations where you saw the melee combat in Furi and expected DMC

Even if my expectations were high for furi, (it wasn't, I never fucking heard of the title until I pirated the game the second a thread was made for the pirated version) The game prides itself on being a bullet hell game, or a sword fighting game. With actually very little in the way of actual content in any of them. If anybody looked at the trailer for the game and got false expectations then they likely just expected the game to actually be great instead of what we got.

>but nobody bemoans Treasure games for having little depth or no variety

If I play them and they're anything as limited as furi you'll find me raising my hand to that statement.

>you're confusing it with the 80s for that matter

Synthwave stuck around post 80's. Bet yes 80's is more appropriate.

>which could throw loads of bosses at you without missing a beat despite having small movesets

They were also more simplistic in movement. Often had stages, and were made over 20 years ago. While those games don't age poorly. Furi will for simply trying to copy them. And like I said, everything aesthetic about the game is mediocre. And everything from a gameplay perspective has been done better on an individual level. AND even if it's somewhat original in its own right, since all of these gameplay mechanics are just copies of better games, it leaves the game being what I stated it as before. A novelty. And the only reason I'm not calling it shit but just mediocre.

>the former relying more on bosses which can cover the entire arena in attacks and standing in safe spaces to avoid damage

Which work because the games emphasize 1 aspect over many shallow ones. The fact that there's a difference in how they function is only proving my point that Furi's placement is a weak excuse to give the game more credit than it deserves.

>Though Furi does partially emulate the latter through blockstrings which need to be parried through

And we all know how I feel about parrying and why it's become objectively trash as more and more games have been implementing it.

>The piechart attacks require you to dash to the safe slices rather than dashing itself giving you i-frames if you dash at the right time

Which was one of the shittiest mechanics game game had and only goes back to my point that many bosses use the same attacks with little to no variety outside of difficulty. And I've already stated that difficulty in itself isn't engaging without original or fun context.

I mean cmon man. You're just resorting to your old arguments and when you don't have one you add an explicit and incredibly specific argument that doesn't hold up because they don't actually address Furi itself. Rather you relate Furi to better games that do what Furi already does but with a completely different context or just plain better. Which not only invalidates what you say but just makes me want to play those better games. But dismissing new ideas because they won't work through your narrow vision is retarded. Color Coding might not work if it was the only thing you added to Furi. But as it is Furi needs plenty of things to help improve it. If you want 1 specific one that will work then how about simply adding more obstacles that make dashing and evasion more difficult. Such as conveyer belts, tar pits that slow you down, regions that do damage if you stand still, regions that do damage if you stay in them to long, more elevation so that dash attacks are weaker up a slope and more powerful down one. Maybe shorten and extend your range for the dash respectively. Reverse control areas? I mean it's a gimmick but so is the majority game as MathewMatosis pointed out himself. And what's worse about all of this is there's no excuse for the devs because this is a modern day game. There's no reason the devs should feel hindered by implementing any of this unlike the games from the late 80's to early 90's. Which often could genuinely use that excuse.

>>15208275

>My point is regular fire is perfectly fine and any improvement charge shot has is inconsequential.

You're literally shooting yourself in the foot if you don't use the Charge Shot for The Line.

>Nigger, I've mentioned several alterations or differences such as combo's, combining abilities, stage resets, better uses of space

I was talking in regards to enemy attacks, you're only bringing up player abilities.

>There's several things Furi could do to its arena's to be more engaging without making it purely a solveable puzzle. You could add more moving platforms, rotating belts, pits that lead to arena's with less space to maneuver, ect

Chances are high Furi already does whatever suggestion you have in regards to arena design (discounting interactables). The application of moving damage zones and bullet patterns for a lot of bosses impose such obstacles onto the arena with such small areas of safety that they're practically platforms on their own, only with an aesthetical difference. Something like The Line's first phase on Furier has you essentially dash towards the inner ring of rotating platforms/safe spaces inbetween the rotating damage zones. It's all flat because otherwise any actual walls would be obstructing the boss' attacks as well, as can be seen with The Strap, though sometimes such walls are used intentionally to break a clear shot between you and the boss. Bullet patterns and damage zones are very versatile in how they can restrict your areas of safety on the arena.

>Combine it with a certain combo move that requires you to hit them in a certain spot of a wall which can only be obtained by knowing what combo to use depending on your location

What? It's not like hitting walls in Furi is really a thing. Nor do I see why you need a certain move to do so. I don't get what you're trying to say here.

>Every time I bring up an idea you think you're countering it by placing it in an isolated concept

Most of the shit for player abilities you suggest does not even fit the direction of the game. Furi is a game about finding windows of opportunities and exploiting them, not being an ultra-deep brawler or whatever with freeform combat. The extent to which you can exploit a window does not really matter, it's about finding them first and foremost and getting a hit in at all. This is especially apparent in The Edge where instead of playing passively and attacking him only after he's finished his attack string, you're expected to attack him during his vulnerability windows in the middle of his attack string. Expanding the player's melee moveset does not serve this purpose at all.

>With the same fucking attacks with little variety. We've been over this.

You haven't, you merely commented on the total quantity of all attack archetypes in the game, but as for how they're utilized and and combined you didn't even try to provide an argument as to why it falters there other than "every boss uses all these archetypes", which in practice says nothing considering how differently said archetypes can be utilized. Bullet hells often consist of literally nothing but bullets, but I shouldn't have to explain how bullet hells can make each attack pattern feel and play differently. I have even stated several boss phases of wildly different attack patterns and combinations of multiple attack types which require you to use different parts of your moveset, but you have never provided anything of depth or insight to make your case on why the attacks in Furi are not varied enough.

>Legs mean intended methods of movement. Which is restrictive in Furi's case. It's not an impossible feat, but the devs didn't know how to put it to good use in furi.

What the fuck are you smoking man? Furi doesn't control that differently from a twin-stick shooter or your regular top-down shooter, which would include most shmups. Having legs or not is irrelevant in how you move around in a top-down or somewhat isometric game.

>If a games only primary goal is speed and relies entirely on that concept to carry it then you're only going to be doing the same exact thing in the most joyless way possible

That is speedrunning–or practicing in general for you.

>Completely fucking useless? Did you not read what I posted about how you should be able to use that shit for a more rewarding stunlock?

It does tons of damage (especially when you Boosted beforehand), covers a large distance quickly, and puts the boss in a stun state where you can follow up with a damaging Punish attack. I'm not sure what you expect here.

>Only when any of those are independently needed. As in, you're restricted from half of that shit during many segments of the boss fights

If every boss was a test of your moveset in general, then no boss would stand out.

>Furi's a game that needs more depth

You have never explained why it needs to other than that it personally bores you.

>>15211484

>And the best way to achieve that is with more abilities or mechanics

You could, but it would require completely revamped boss fights or new boss fights entirely to be able to properly accommodate these new abilities, which in a boss rush game like Furi means you'd effectively have to change the actual meat of the game, but whether it makes the game better or worse will depend on how its executed, and how its executed is its own can of worms. Otherwise any changes to the moveset would have to be on a much smaller scale. The melee combat isn't very deep, but it's designed around being as it is, so any valid criticism can only be pointed towards how it's utilized and how it could use new attacks. I mean, the CQC segments could use some different attacks, like throwing additional shit such as rotating swirl of bullets on top of the pie chart attacks or an additional rotating telegraphed damage zone on top of a pie chart attack which asks that you don't only dash to a safe spot, but also move towards a safe spot inside that safe spot where the damage zone doesn't hover over (technically the game already does this at some points).

>But so completely negligible and uncommon that it begs why the fuck the mechanic is even in there in the first place. Didn't you just go on about how bad fluff is?

One, it's not negligible, managing to Boost during the fight with The Edge lets you deal so much damage that you can beat one phase with just a single boosted hit. And second, I also explained before that charge functions are a great addition because in a game about finding windows of opportunity, they let you do something that counts towards offense by charging damage outside these windows of opportunity. They're filling up free space, so to speak. Else you wouldn't be doing much outside of just defending outside these windows.

>Did you not just shit on FPS game bosses that have "puzzle" fights?

Puzzle bosses in FPSs often involve not shooting at the boss at all as opposed to the moment-to-moment gameplay consisting of nothing but, but instead want you to defeat this guy using some environmental prop or way of dealing damage which you never used before in the game.

>Or use them as indicators for an enemies upcoming attack. Jeezes there's plenty of methods for it to work.

There's a difference between using color coding in restricting what weapons you can actually use and telegraphing what kind of attack you are up against depending on the color.

>By making the alternation between the 2 a bit lengthy you can put more strategy into whether or not you should commit to it during a specific situation

It would not solve the problem of making the fully Charged Shot useless for regular offense and making melee attacks redundant because of the damage potential of a spreadshot up close. And even if you do nerf the damage so it's only useful for clearing bullets, then it's no different in function from the Charge Shot as it already is.

>Which work because the games emphasize 1 aspect over many shallow ones

Ys is near identical to Furi but with jumping instead of dashing, no CQC phases, and a bunch of other not-so-major differences in moveset. How the boss fights in Ys play out aren't too different from Furi, at least for the human-sized ones.

>Rather you relate Furi to better games that do what Furi already does but with a completely different context or just plain better

It's about double standards. The other games I mentioned, as enjoyable as they are, often have less going on in terms of attack variety, but some of them are seen as one of the best in the genre. If Furi isn't varied enough, how could these games be?

This loops back to whatever your abstract-ass standards are for what constitutes as "enough" variety in a game. Your only argument for this is that identical attack types are reused between boss fights, but this tells me absolutely nothing in terms of how each boss isn't different from the other. How does The Burst fail to stand out from The Flame? How does The Scale fail to stand out from The Hand? How does The Song fail to stand out from The Line? And even when you have bosses like The Edge which focus entirely on melee, your argument as to why this fight sucks is because the melee combat itself is too limited to be fun, which again says nothing as to how The Edge specifically (fails to) challenges you on melee combat in ways other bosses don't. There's always new enemies, new levels, new attacks or whatever you could add, but at some point you just have to call it quits. If there isn't enough variety, then that means we're talking about wasted potential, or that whatever challenges the game does provide doesn't stand out for whatever reasons you'd have to provide.

>>15167746

>enjoying artificial difficulty in 2018

Get out

>>15183894

>>15183897

>>15187203

>>15187206

>>15195860

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>>15195863

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>>15200674

>>15208275

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>>15211484

>>15211485

See?! What the fuck, this is Johnny Neptune on /n/ levels of pathetic dedication to something.

>>15212049

They're having a discussion you uncultured swine

>>15212056

No no no, that's not discussion. That shit looks almost premeditated. It's likely all the same person. Maybe it's a dev trying to drum up interest in such a niche game?

>>15212068

>It's a shill

are you delusional?

>>15212069

Just convinced of my position since you're still here trying to convince me otherwise.