/v/ - Video Games

Most developers will actually quit if they're forced to make anything less than top of the line 3d graphics. There's an old article about some guys from EA threatening to do exactly that back when the Wii got big that I'd love to be able to find again.

Found it. None of the archives are working for me so I'll just break the url.

https://www .mcvuk.com/development/casual-shift-drove-developers-from-ea

>>15115594

>>15115542

>most developers

>using EA as a litmus for it

Maybe for AAA companies it might be applicable and it would make sense. You'd have to be some kind of soulless cockroach to work at these companies

>>15115494

>Is there an actual economical reason why they don't

Nazca Corporation made a very clear point about that.

Pixel graphics of quality that matches 3D games takes 10x the effort, and it has a big risk of not selling at all because everyone prefers 3D, as they have since 3D graphics were finally achieved. Even with all their efforts, Nazca is long dead now.

Graphics have always, ALWAYS been a major factor in the videogame industry, despite what people will tell you. Of course gameplay is important but the grafix question was always present since the crash. It was in every game magazine, and still is today.

>>15115675

>Graphics have always, ALWAYS been a major factor in the videogame industry, despite what people will tell you. Of course gameplay is important but the grafix question was always present since the crash.

Yeah, but we're really getting into diminishing returns here. To the point where it takes significant investment to improve graphics, which only provide marginal visual improvement. We really started to enter into this at the end of the last generation - and I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when the next gen systems come out and they don't really look much better than games available now. That's why Sony and Microsoft are all of a sudden now starting to acknowledge and push for games to be higher resolution, have higher framerates, and other gimmicks like VR which justify the purchase of more powerful hardware.

You can't really count on the graphics trend to keep the same trajectory, and when it takes a downturn, people are going to start turning to mechanics (if they're smart) and brand recognition (if they're not) as game sellers instead of graphics.

>>15115604

Now? What do you think Id was built around? Game developers have been graphicsfags for the longest time.

yeah, honestly, good pixel art requires a lot of talent and patience, especially if you want stuff at the level of later-year NES and Genesis games. Inti Creates has been making things of varying levels of quality for a while. They did some amazing work in Blaster Master Zero and Curse of the Moon, though. The dipshit (((producers))) can't see the forest for the trees, and insist that 3D > 2D, no matter what.

>>15115732

>Yeah, but we're really getting into diminishing returns here. To the point where it takes significant investment to improve graphics, which only provide marginal visual improvement.

Actually, it's the contrary. It is set in stone that technology becomes better, more efficient and easier to use over time. This applies for videogames as well. The average videogame nowadays doesn't cost 1/3rd of the alleged cost, and it's still vastly more complex than what we had in the 90's, regardless of effort, because back then, even game engines were a marvel on their own, to the point where programmers were revered for their skill. The actual problem here is money, and the topic goes way further.

>a lot of people are going to be disappointed when the next gen systems come out and they don't really look much better than games available now

Because technology is stagnating, until the next breakthrough comes by, that is. Crysis used to be the "peak" of graphics in the last gen, until things like megatextures starting popping up. DX12 and Vulcan are emerging, OpenGL is being phased out, new game engines are being made, and so the wait continues. The main problem why it's stagnating however is same as the one from my previous point - money.

Look through the eyes of a normalfag and think about whay they want. Normalfags don't want complex immersive 2D minimalist games like Dwarf Fortress. They want big massive 3D spectacle set pieces with simple gameplay they understand. There will always be a market for 2D games, but 2D games will always be a niche compared to 3D spectacles.

>>15115594

https://archive.fo/3hOJR

>>15115773

>>15115830

>>15115542

>Most developers will actually quit if they're forced to make anything less than top of the line 3d graphics.

Or, they don't want their pride to be stepped on. SoJ was absolutely furious when they found out that the Sega Genesis was still selling millions of units in the U.S. well into the PS1 and Saturn's lifetime, and they finally axed the thing in '97.

>>15115773

>Game developers have been graphicsfags for the longest time.

It's not really sustainable anymore though. Graphics have gotten so bloated that it takes a team of a hundred plus people almost 5~6 years to develop a single game. You'll be lucky to get a single entry in a franchise once a generation - whereas you used to get 3~4. The only way around this is to do what EA does with Call of Duty and have multiple studios dedicated to a single franchise. It's extremely high-risk, because a single critical commercial failure could break a smaller company. And again… all for only marginal graphics improvements.

I still really think the industry would benefit from having multiple lower-tier (graphically) entries in a franchise between major AAA releases. Hell, if for nothing else, than it would allow developers to more easily explore mechanical alterations and see how the community responds to those before taking a gamble on implementing changes to major mainline installments that may or may not be well received critically.

>>15115832

Sega of Japan are fucking kikes

>>15115832

I often wonder what life would be like

if there had never been such a thing as a kike.

Just as I did, so can you

Imagine a world without a jew

>>15115832

The Saturn was shit in the US though. If it had more 2D releases ported to show it could do 2D games better than Playstation then maybe people would have bought more Saturns? Either way most people in US went Playstation, Nintendo, or PC for triple A gaming experiences because of SEGA's retarded decisions with the Saturn in the west.

>>15115835

That's true. Also look at the tools available to developers and marketers between then and now? With Unity, Unreal, or any other game dev tool you can put together a solid foundation of a project if you know what you're doing. You no longer have to make patented tool kits from scratch if you don't mind sharing royalties. But remember, big companies want the normalfag lowest common denominator. It's about big names, big projects, big money, and Hollywood accounting.

>>15115947

>If it had more 2D releases ported to show it could do 2D games better than Playstation then maybe people would have bought more Saturns?

That Saturn was a flop ever since the beginning. Nothing could have saved it due to SoJ wanting everything involving the system to be done their way, and only let up once the system passed the point of no return and saw how much they screwed the pooch.

>>15115947

Bernie Stolar ensured that the Saturn would fail in the US tbh

Japan being slimeballs certainly didn't help Sega in general stay alive as long as they should've

>>15115987

>>15116008

Saturn could have still sold well if business decisions behind the scenes didn't end it. That said ignoring the graphics hardware race driving console sales is a fool's decision. Because there came a point with the 7th generation where consoles were proprietary wall garden PCs. At the time hardware was solid, but then that was when graphics tech evolved the fastest.

I'm hoping next gen we will see more better gameplay designs with AI and whatnot instead of better hardware and lazier optomization.

>>15116049

>I'm hoping next gen we will see more better gameplay designs with AI and whatnot instead of better hardware and lazier optomization.

Nintendo seems to already be handling that (The Switch is a ninth generation console, remember?); M$ is biting down on "Games as a service" bullet as hard as they can, so that gives you an idea about the Next-Xbox; and, as for Sony, well, just see where things are heading with Dad of Soy, Lesbians of Us, and Norman Readus and the Funky Fetus.

>>15115896

You intentionally forget David Rosen was the only jew at Sega.

>>15116008

>>15116104

>(1)

And, why should I believe you guys?

>>15115542

Well then they should get the fuck out then.

>>15116074

Western Sony has gone social justice and will region lock their consoles for our safety. M$ new Xbox is going to be a Windows 10 machine akin to Steam machines that run UWAs. Pretty sure Switch won't be region locked. Not sure about the mid gen upgrade. My optimism is for PC.

>>15116104

So are you the soft accelerationist that wants video games to be replaced with poz like modern capeshit has? Or are you serious about nuking the industry to the fucking ground and starting over?

>>15115675

>it has to match the quality of 3D games

>it takes a lot of effort to put some pixels down

Anyone with even a little bit of talent using paint knows that this is a load of bullshit. Sure it may be easier to make a 3D model than a dozen sprites, once you have all the code necessary so that model doesn't look like shit, but that's if you ignore having to code all that other shit in which takes more time/money than making sprites for a 2D game.

>>15116216

Nonono, you got it wrong hard.

If you make a good model and a skeleton for it, animating it is easy because you just need to apply perspective, lighting and movement changes for you new animation. This is because you literally create a 3D representation that you can work in any way you want, even flatten it like a pancake for a comic-like "stomped coyote" effect. This is how Crash in the PS1 was handled, but since the PS1 couldn't deal with the calculations in real time without fucking the rest of the game, Gavin and co. stored the hardcoded positions of vertices for each animation and compressed them until they were needed in runtime.

However, with 2D you don't have this advantage. Anything that changes significantly (e.g. a standing animation to a crawl animation) needs to be done pretty much from scratch and coloring, linework (optionally palettes) must stay consistent throughout. Good spritework takes a lot of effort, and if you're animating then doubly so.

>>15116303

>animating it is easy

I never said that it wasn't. In fact I said that it would take more time to make a dozen sprites than do that. My point was that all the bells and whistles that go with a 3D model, such as lighting, textures, geometry, physics, etc. etc. take more time to implement than to make 2D sprites using much simpler code.

Also, you do realize that copy/paste makes sprite work a lot easier than you think.

>>15116415

Once a 3D model is built it can be re-scaled and re-used in other projects. Look at Mario+Rabbids. Pretty sure those are all models loaned by Nintendo.

For a lot of 2D games due to resolutions of the screen most of the time you have to re-draw the assets for every new iteration of the game. Unless it's a direct sequel or the assets were saved at high quality before being compressed most 2D artwork have to be redone for platforms that render higher resolutions. 2D games have been on the decline since the 6th gen. They made a comeback on handheld/mobile due to low resolutions of hardware at the time and Japan's love for anime waifus. Even Vita and 3DS saw a decline of pure 2D games.

As for copy/pasta sprites, most of those are indie shit games. Real sprites that take effort take a lot of time. Luckily now we have platforms that run at least 720p on average. So hand drawn animations and artwork may make a comeback on mobile and Nintendo Switch.

>>15116454

>you might have to re-draw the assets for a completely DIFFERENT game

When did sequels enter the conversation? You seem to be reaching hard to justify 2d Sprites being some impossible obstable for development. It isn't hard to hire low paid sprite artists. The price for animating actual cartoons is cheaper than the money they throw away on a game and you are trying to tell me it's like climbing mount everest while only using one hand. Fan projects have put out quality sprites for free and the only thing that extends the time on those is lack of people. Money completely changes that and sprite artists wouldn't all be making very much.

>>15116454

Oh, and most 2D games have used copy/paste/flip for sprites throughout the history of video games.

>>15116510

For platformers, fighters, and horizontal RPG sprites yeah. I don't think we can get away with flipped sprites today without autism making a nit pick video on Youtube.

>>15116508

Sequels are very relevant. Why not re-use assets you create from other games in your current projects? 3D is easier to do that than 2D. There's a lot more advantages to re-using 3D assets once they are made than 2D assets. Even if 3D assets take just as much time if not more work than 2D assets they are still a better investment for big companies.

And 2D sprites aren't impossible. I plan to make games with hand drawn 2D sprites because I am a big fan of classic 2D animated films and cartoons. That said the hand drawn 2D characters are going to be an artistic decision rather than a practical one because logically 3D is the better investment.

Video games are first and foremost a business. Most developers make games now days to make money.

Also have you noticed the quality of new western animation shows lately? If it isn't 3DCG then it's calarts garbage with the same character models and styles because the creators are circle jerking and re-using assets due to how cheap they are.

I'm not discouraging you from making 2D games. I'm just sharing what I've learned from what I've read and researched why big companies use 3D assets over 2D.

>>15116049

Saturn would've sold well if there were no sega cd and 32x.

>>15116199

Communist mod deleting messages against leftists. Again: anything goes to eliminate (preferably, literally) leftists from the industry and making impossible for other leftists to take their place.

>>15116115

Because here you can have decentralized news and most are also free from corporations' interests. Corporate suits always lie to cover up their mistakes.

>>15117355

Wishful thinking. Playstation really made people happy about it's games back in the day. The Saturn could have sold more, but would end up being a failure nonetheless. Soyny made their console the "free for all" paradise for all developers, and the Saturn could not compete with that. As for Mega CD and 32X, you can also blame the american branch for pushing that, even though they blamed the japanese branch (as always) for their (american) stupid idea of releasing competition against themselves.

>>15116631

>don't copy/paste/flip that will be made fun of as lazy

>it's cool to reuse assets for a sequel

it's an industry run by retards now. there is exactly one fargo out there, and he recently announced his retirement after wasteland 3 is out. seems it will be my last game as well. we rode the wave until it broke. you incels can have the pieces.