/v/ - Video Games

Levels that teach you through gameplay and encourage creativity. Bonus points for an interesting story.

>>15074695

That sounds interesting, can you throw some examples into the thread?

I'd like leveling to be purely new effects and moves and options, rather than any amount of stat boosts.

>>15074709

I am glad you at least contributed to your own thread, as for me, I like the hobo phase in the beginning to bringer of destruction at max levels from Gothic/Risen. Also since some of the beginner quests in those games, are literally to buy a frying pan, or pick up the crops or sweep the floor in the temple(Risen 1), whereas towards the end you are tasked with killing dragons, titans and all that shit.

>>15074691

A high level cap but one that you can reach through relatively normal gameplay without retarded amounts of grinding. I also like skill based progression and gear based progression on top of that. I don't like it when games make your character level completely overwhelm your other game progression.

>>15074732

Shit, I hate when you get to pick skill but if you pick "wrong" you a screwed and game will turn into some fucking unplayable hell because the way you play is not compatible with its design.

Diablo 2 did that to me. Fuck diablo 2.

>>15074736

I like getting overpowered, because I feel like I "earned" it. It's wrong when games force you to grind to even progress though, like most JRPGs.

>>15074732

>fit your playstyle

This.

Leveling systems where you need to make permanent decisions between two or more options which permanently lock out the ones which you didn't choose. Leveling systems where you can upgrade into nodes which drastically change your playstyle by changing how a certain stat works which both positively and negatively impacts you. Leveling systems where the point economy isn't so fucking liberal that you end up unlocking everything useful near the end, to the point where it's a system of choosing which upgrade you want first since you'll get everything eventually.

>>15074691

I don't. Progress systems are for faggots who can't git gud.

>>15074759

Can you give examples? I can think only of new X-Com series for binary choices nodes.

>>15074761

B-but I've beaten Dark Souls on NG+7 with SL1 character!

>>15074764

>Can you give examples? I can think only of new X-Com series for binary choices nodes.

The obvious one would be augmentation canisters in Deus Ex. Shadowrun Dragonfall DC/Hong Kong and Overload also come to mind.

>>15074769

That's cool. I didn't play Shadowrun games.

>>15074778

Your party gets level ups every few missions and their loyalty mission has you unlocking one final upgrade, their upgrades split into two trees based on what playstyle you wish for them, it's either a new weapon, ability or item plus stat boosts towards that playstyle.

I like the

>no "level up bullshit" system

the most.

This is the main reason why I prefer Super Metroid over Symphony of the Night. Padding out the game's playtime and artificially boosting the game bosses' difficulty by how much time you did/didn't wasted on grinding for exp points is NOT good game design. Just a tedious fucking chore to raise some arbitrary LVL number from 1 to 100, rather than having a good game that lets you progress from point A to point B as quickly as possible with NO grinding in between.

>>15074837

But you still level up your health and ammo pools in super metroid.

>inb4 replying to torfag

>>15074842

Difference being is that those upgrades are obtained through exploration (e.g. what the game itself is centered around), which is also done in SotN, but player statistics are still largely determined by grinding for EXP or grinding enemies for rare drops/souls.

>>15074842

which you gained via exploration, which was encouraged that way. Same with hollow knight. it makes actually exploring the game fun and rewarding, instead of artificial gameplay which is grinding over and over the same spot

>>15074878

>grinding over and over the same spot

That's the choice for player to make.

SOTN doesn't force you to do that, just like Souls it can be beaten with naked level 1 character.

>>15074959

u're a terrible design sweetie

A really low level cap with leveling that takes very long but fundamentally changes how the game plays each time sounds interesting.

I can't think of any examples though

>irl I see specialization as a really light thing, I prefer to be great at a bunch of disparate stuff and proficient in everything else, my goal is to be a true Renaissance man.

>No way to do this in games, either be good at one thing and shit at everything, or shit at everything.

I just want to achieve God Emperor mode and feel like I earned it.

I like levels to either be incredibly important and life-changing, like in DnD-based games or hilariously meaningless, like in Disgaea.

I like it in DnD based games because each and every level up is so important and a signpost of progression. And, if you need to tackle something hard, you can't just grind a few levels, you need to use the tools you have.

But in disgaea, it's just stupid and silly and fun to watch numbers go up.

>>15074968

What about a game where your EXP bar is your health bar? Couple Scenarios:

>When hexp reaches 0, lower level by 1.

<Either remember what player leveled and just lock it

<Or allow death to become a respec system.

It can either kill the player and respawn them, or just delevel them on the spot. In the latter case fully dying at level 1 might be perma-death. The hobo-phase would be risky.

>When hexp reaches 0, on whatever level, your character is dead.

This either kills you and respawns you, or perma-kills your character. In the latter, and more exciting case, the player has to choose strategically when to level up- Say, as he is about to kill something that grants EXP he has to press the level up key before he gets the EXP (so it isn't wasted and so he doesn't take damage from something and die).

>>15074968

I was going to second this and mention Bastion as a good example. Each level takes the same amount of XP (I think), but you get access to new booze at the distillery and can carry more spirits into battle. Your life and damage also increase, but it's rather small compared to the utility of having an additional drink slot.

>>15075031

I remember Yahtzee discussed the idea a long time ago; I'm surprised nothing's been done with it. I think the idea of harsh penalties for death or permadeath would be more interesting. There could easily be a diegetic reason - your character undergoes some powerful but traumatic experience upon level up, like a spiritual awakening or a robot having his wiring reworked - and I'm sure soulsfags would eat it up.

>>15075031

>>15075041

Didn't Fable 2 have this system minus the permadeath? I remember losing exp on death, atleast.

>>15075041

What if you entered a challenge run/level when you tried to level up. If you win, you level up and can keep playing but if you die in the challenge, THEN you get permadeath. EXP earned during the challenge run directly grants you hexp for the challenge run and the new life (since you level up on starting) so you won't be completely screwed over on completing the run.

>>15074691

I like the Dragon Warrior 1 model. Early leveling for key abilities, big stat jumps, later leveling for a few high level abilities, tapering off in importance to item purchases. I don't like infinite leveling.

>>15074728

I love that early phase in RPGs before you become the all-powerful demigod slaying any enemy standing on your way. I hate it when you're too overpowered from the get go. Nowadays, sadly a lot modern games rob you from that experiance.

>>15074728

The hobo phase is definitely where most of the fun is, but you can't really extend it by tweaking the level progression anyway so you might as well let the player be as overpowered as they possibly can once it's over.

>>15074728

I like the Gothic system too, in that way you dont just level up on your own, you actually need to find the right person to help you enhance your skills.

>>15074691

I prefer when the progression is gear and collectible based so then you can't grind instead of gitting gud with what you have.

>>15074691

I don't, I like games where skills are advanced dynamically through use, perks are gained through actions, achievements and choices during story missions and side-quests and abilities(such as spells) are learned through interacting with the world and not picked out of a menu at an arbitrary interval.

But most of all, I like games that feel like you're actually progressing as opposed to feeling like you're in the same fucking place except with shinier gear(which is most games).

Or to put it another way, I generally only like one or two things about any given game's leveling/progression system and the rest I tolerate.

>>15082435

>set in stone abilities

Honestly I find that shit cancerous. The idea itself works, but almost all of the implementations so far become unbearable stale and repetitive by the half way mark.

I prefer some progression, even if in reality it means very little practically it provides the bare minimum of diversity of gameplay/aesthetics

>>15074749

>most JRPGs

Stop this fucking meme. I like JRPGs but most of the time they're fucking baby easy, you won't ever need to grind if you don't flee from battles like a pussy and actually use 2 neurons when battling bosses

git gud

>>15082478

Add in equipment with varied functionality and new skills that you can earn/unlock throughout the game.

I like Doom's simplicity for that reason. You get tons of new weapons and find a lot of consumable powerups along the way, but at the end it's still just the same Doomguy with the same old guns shooting demons to death, and not a lvl 37 Doomguy with 90 points in dextery and a lvl 52 chaingun that deals 3% more damage, 10% less recoil, and a 15% chance to land a critical hit on Hellknights.

>>15082519

Yeah, I agree with you there. I also kinda liked the new Deus Ex game's progression scheme where it was more about expanding your list of tools and approaches.

>>15082496

>JRPG

>Japanese RPG

>Japanese Role Playing Game

>Role Playing Game

>Role Playing

>Japanese Game

Honestly I can think of maybe, if I stretch the definition, one or two. Japan is incapable of producing actual RPGs, God knows why anyone calls them that.

>>15074728

This TBH. Gothic/Risen/Elex really give you a great sense of progression. You start with minial tasks and things you can get away with (brawling drunk people, killing the weakest enemies, finding an or sword off a dead orc, etc) and end being a demigod. Stakes feel high throughout the story too, and your progression is different depending on the faction you join. Nothing beats it.

>>15082688

No computer RPGs can be actual RPGs anyway so there's that too, Hitler.

>>15082496

>spam attack and occasional heal command

>if you can't proceed, go back and grind

>now proceed

>git gud

Nigga, there is nothing to git gud at.

>>15084905

It's like you didn't even read my post

>>15075047

I don't think this has anything to do with the leveling system, but how enemies and XP are distributed. Some JRPGs like Grandia 1 or Luna1 have enough enemies in the dungeons that you will rarely be under-leveled or over-leveled when facing the bosses or the enemies in other areas, so you don't need to grind, just never run from a fight. In Grandia 1, there aren't even random encounters, you see the enemies on screen and can ignore most of them, but you will be under-leveled as a result. Lunar 1 also has a neat system of distributing the stats of the bosses, so if you are one or two levels below the boss' level his stats will be lowered, and the reverse will hold true, up to a point, you can't beat all bosses at level 1, and if you are max level you could probably one shot the first few bosses.

>>15084931

I played through a whole bunch of JRPGs and they are all like that dude.

Also about your post

> most of the time they're fucking baby easy

>git gud

Like you said, there is only grind to them, and grinding doesn't take to git gud.

>>15074691

I'm more for player growth than a character growth, as such games where you have to improve your skills as a player rather than rely heavily on gear or stats are more my jam.

I think the Monster Hunter games have that, however at later parts of the game it becomes so gear based is not even fun. Dark Souls also has some of it but the game is not exactly balanced, you can cheese it in so many ways…

Also this >>15074732

>>15074709

>Balance

Who gives a fuck about end-game balance.

I want to feel almost inmortal when I get to those levels

>>15084992

Use cheat engine duh

>>15084962

Grinding is just fighting more than necessary to gain an advantage (an advantage you often don't need, trivializing the game). If you think just going normally fighting through the game is grinding then those games are just not for you.

>>15085047

Except they DO force you to run around artificially spawning more random encounters that you normally would.

>>15085083

You mean exploring for loot? You're not FORCED to do that, you know. Or do you have something specific you're thinking of?

Random encounter systems are usually flawed though, I'll give you that.

>>15074691

Stat allocation

Shit like that makes my dick rock hard

>>15084992

>WoWfag

Personally, I generally prefer when the games keep you grounded and you can't became the God-Emperor.

No ridiculous item scaling, no ridiculous power scaling, no going from 100HP to 80000HP, none of that bullshit.

it's cool when leveling up stats beyond whichever stat makes you hit harder is actually beneficial

>>15087629

This.

Glass cannons are fucking boring and nothing ruins my day quite like finding out all the points I've been dumping into health and support stats to barely struggle through fights are worthless because I could just be one-shotting everything I come across if I dump everything into damage like a complete twat. I'd at least feel better if the devs had a popup tell me at the start that they put absolutely no love or effort into their mechanics before I waste my time on trying to find alternate solutions that just don't exist.

>>15087676

its not that i even necessarily dislike making a wumbo damage build, it's that wumbo damage ends up being the only real option

>>15088053

what fuckup game is this so I don't play it.

>>15088201

SMT: Devil Survivor 1

>>15088342

thanks

I love how Diablo 3 handled leveling. You have a low cap, but gain XP super fast. You then find gear that can improve your core abilities like dramatically changing the way a skill works or straight up improving it. But once you reach cap you can invest in higher and higher levels that allow you to put points into various stats.

A whole lot of shit is wrong with that game but the comfy grind keeps me coming back.

>unrealistically high level cap, so you keep leveling pretty much through the entire game, never reaching it

This. I think part of the reason I stopped playing Fallout 3 immediately after finishing the storyline(despite having Broken Steel) was that I had already hit the level cap. Although that was far from the only problem with the game.

>>15089602

I kind of agree, but how would you do it instead?

>>15089629

Oh, I meant in JRPGs and stuff like that in general. Of course other genres can do much better than slap on """Rpg elements"""

>>15089629

Just because they slapped "Soul" in front of "level" doesn't mean they're different things.

How does Dark Souls not have a leveling system?

>>15089685

I don't really think its comparable because you can finish the game naked at level 1.

>>15089690

>>15089692

Sure, you can do that, but its much easier to do if you, y'know, level up, use equipment, upgrade that equipment.

Not that I want to sound like I'm justifying, just I found the low impact of stats to items a good thing, since it means your item choice matters more than bigstats.

I can find flaws with almost all leveling systems and don't really think there is one definitive "best" option.

All I ask is that the game world and leveling system play nicely together and I'm not either ever stuck being permanently underleveled/overleveled or absolutely never being underleveled/overleveled. Balance.

>>15089690

>>15089692

It's still a "leveling system"

>>15089602

>I hate leveling altogether

I think it's fun to tinker with numbers and minmax my stuff so I would never make that statement, obviously some games do it better than others (souls and gothic 2 have pretty nice ones).

I just thought it was weird to say that and then praise souls as a game that does things right.

Why not just say that you hate poorly implemented leveling since you clearly don't hate all of it.

>>15089349

>Dialbo

>equipment level-locked

No thank you. Level locking equipment is the WORST design decision ever.

>>15089349

>super fast

I just got here and I can already tell you're a faggot.

>>15089898

>If you want to use that weapon it is mandatory to level

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. You get negative scaling and wonky moveset, but you can still use it.

Anyway you can use regular or reinforced club the entire game and wouldn't lack damage.

>>15089898

Yeah and some hyper weapons sit at 40 req and some spells need 50.

Playing through the game on low SL is a fun challenge and the reward is a strong twink, finished das3 + DLC with a SL 20.

But that's more of a side thing, you miss out on so much fun stuff from not levelling up that it sort of becomes mandatory.

>>15074732

I miss being absurdly overpowered, it was fun to solo fleets with a single ship

>>15089920

>Having a 1+ second wind up to swing a weapon is usable

Doing something highly impractical and actually stupid is a self-imposed challenge. The game was designed around having levels. The levels enable you to do things you cannot do without levels. They also increase your numbers, but not in such a polarizing way that its mandatory to have A or S weapon scaling to be relevant.

I prefer having minimal vertical progression, but vast horizontal progression. So games like GW1.

Mabinogi has the best leveling system I've ever played.

You level up your skills by using it X number of ways Y times then spending Ability Points gained from character levels, birthdays, and sometimes from quests. Your are not restricted to any one class style and you can reset your character level and age via rebirth.

It's even better that life skills are not treated like a side gig.

>>15074691

honestly it depends on the game

in some games it's better to have no levels at all, with all power increases coming from the player getting better or small-ish gear upgrades (like in Metal Gear Rising or Bayonetta)

in other instances full stat autism is what actually makes the game interesting (like Morrowind)

an RPG without levels makes as much sense as an action-FPS with 90 different stats, namely none

For singleplayer RPG's, I like a high to nonexistent level cap - something to keep working towards and a way to grind through shit if I just can't seem to git gud. Especially if I get to feel long a god by the time I've reached the cap (if there even is one).

For MMO's, either have a low level cap with emphasis on sidegrades, or just say "fuck it" and allow people to rank whatever they want (see: RuneScape, Mabinogi, old SWG). Having to grind to reach "endgame" is absolutely retarded.

>>15091016

>You level up your skills by using it X number of ways Y times

No, fuck this. This always leads to using skills you don't wouldn't otherwise just to grind them up. A skill can be very useful without being one you use against every enemy, and these systems always make you use them where they aren't appropriate because you need them to keep up for situations where they're needed.

>Well, these fire enemies are weak to water, but my water spell is already overleveled

>Time to use my fire spell on them fifty times because I need it to gain enough levels to be useful later when I meet grass enemies

Like Disgaea, where there's retardedly high level caps but you don't need it at all for 99% of the game.

After playing through the game as a regular denizen, it's fun to come back as a god and mess around.

>>15075140

>I love that early phase in RPGs before you become the all-powerful demigod slaying any enemy standing on your way.

I love it too, it sucks but in a good way, not many people appreciate the whole compulsive looting and the joy you get from replacing your gear as soon as you find something halfway decent so your character looks respectable in front of NPCs.

I like skills that level up through use, like in Ultima Online.