/v/ - Video Games

>>14831754

simple controls =/= simple gameplay

>>14831749

What's worse:

>Complicated keyboard layout of 1980-1999 games requiring you to utilize the entire keyboard and use guidelines

VS

>Requiring a controller or having to play without mouse with retarded Z/X/C/V and UP/DOWN/LEFT/RIGHT setup usually with inability to rebind in 2015-2018 and camera being bind on U/J/H/K or something like that

I remember reading an interview about some old PC game, I think it might've been one of the Ultimas, and it turns out the development team had all sorts of different computers they were making the game on, some with mice some without and all that, so the control schemes would end up just being this Frankenstein mess that doesn't make any sense. Some games, for example, have you moving a cursor around with the mouse while moving your character with the arrow keys and doing menu shit with the letter keys like you're supposed to have 3 hands. Keep in mind too that a lot of these older PC games, pretty much anything before Windows 95 or so, were intended to be played at really slow speeds so moving your hands around wasn't nearly as bad as having to do that in a tight situation.

>>14831749

You try to pioneer an industry and get everything right and invent all the best practices and methods on the first go.

I think that's actually why I was never able to go into Thief. I like stealth games and Thief always sounded appealing on paper, but every time I give it a crack it just doesn't stick.

>>14831772

That only proves his point.

KF has simplistic gameplay but horrendous controls, just like Daggerfall with default control scheme.

Joysticks just don't work with full 3D.

>>14831782

>game journos getting it wrong since 2000

>>14831796

Not an argument.

>>14831784

But the controls in Thief are both simple and easy.

>>14831789

It goes further back than that. I have a collection of EGM issues all the way back to the first. Things started falling apart on that front probably around late 1995 when all the big industry mergers happened and the big publishers were all flush with cash and relocated to San Francisco.

>>14831774

Are you talking about Dark Souls?

>>14831776

Daggerfall was one of the simpler games from that era though.

>>14831782

>Are you implying that consoles did any better?

Actually no. Japs didn't even have any idea how to utilize twin analog sticks effectively until like a decade ago.

>>14831772

>looking up and down using R2 and L2

This game was shit. Unrelated note, but your sword's hitbox was fucked too, making the combat even shittier.

>>14831779

Oh yeah, never got around to actually play Ultima 7 because the controls, UI, and absolutely horrendous text font scared me away. Everything about this game was counter intuitive. Fallout did the right thing by making everything accessible by mouse.

many old games in general have bad controls, mainly because devs were still finding their feet and figuring out what works. it took a long time for FPSs to have a standard way to control on PC and consoles. anyone else remember using wasd and arrows to move, spacebar to shoot, etc? mice weren't common until later on, and devs didnt even think to use it in games. and when they did, they still weren't sure how to use it. seems obvious now but back then it wasn't.

game's now are pretty uniform, and part of the reason is familiarity, but devs try to stick with a balance between what works and whats familiar.

Keyboard layout itself is terrible.

It's like complaining about zero depth mechanics in games and not mentioning controllers.

>>14831840

Probably because I specifically said PC games in the OP. Console games suffered from this too but fortunately controllers only have a few buttons.

>>14831833

>Daggerfall was one of the simpler games from that era though

Do you imply that Jagged Alliance or original Xcom are not simple games? All their complexity comes from obtuse ui and control schemes.

>>14831914

I meant to say games with simpler controls. The gameplay is actually more complex than jagged alliance and xcom.

>>14831749

<Why do old PC games have bad controls?

>implying

git gud kiddo

>>14831833

>Are you talking about Dark Souls?

Nioh has same problem. And a lot of jrpg ports.

Now imagine playing Invoker in original dota, where the hotkeys were some random bullshit

>>14831960

Just wanna have fun, dont wanna git gut.

>>14831981

are jap games even worth playing, they get boring fast

>>14831749

Did you ever try to play a console 3D platformer before analog sticks became widespread and ubiquitous?

>>14831749

Here are some possible answers:

1) It is experimental. They haven't had time remove artifacts of previous designs or scraped content.

<Fallout 1 had some broken buttons on the pip-boy.

2) It is based on the premise that you read the manual and controls are made to be efficient for experience players removing nested menus and message prompts.

<Not a PC game but Dark Spire for the NDS doesn't ask if you want to throw an item away when you press x. It also has a cursor on the upper screen that is pointing at a character's name which you move with the shoulder buttons. When you use a healing item, it automatically uses it on the character that is selected.

3) It allows for more open choices.

<The controls for FO:NV are simpler than FO1/2 but you are unable to do simply actions like use a Stimpak on an NPC that isn't your companion. In FO1, you can use the lockpicking to a bookshelf to open a secret door. In FO2, you can lock doors. Both of those games don't need to rely on context sensitive prompts to tell you what you can do.

4) No console ports.

<No need to clean up controls.

4) Poor design.

<In VtMB, you have a button for reloading and a button for holstering. In FO:NV, you press the reload button to reload and hold the melee button to holster (if you are unarmed, using a melee weapon, or grenades; pressing the reload will also holster.).

>>14832043

*

<In VtMB, you have a button for reloading and a button for holstering. In FO:NV, you press the reload button to reload and hold the reload button to holster (if you are unarmed, using a melee weapon, or grenades; pressing the reload will also holster.).

>>14832009

stick to western games

>>14832009

If you've played one J"RPG", you've played them all.

>>14832269

heh got 'em

>>14831749

>Why do old PC games have bad controls?

To keep children like you away.

>>14832414

heh got 'em

My alltime favorite example is this really early first person game I can't remember the name of.

>U looks up

>D looks down

>L looks left

>R looks right

Controls for PC games weren't quite standardized back then. Nowadays, you could pick up any game in a genre you were familiar with and generally get how to navigate. There wasn't so much in the way of precedent back then, and dev shops were far more isolated from one-another, so you ended up with multiple control schemes without anything really being the "standard". Look at RTS, like StarCraft vs WarCraft vs Total Annihilation vs Command and Conquer. Everybody did things their own way. Now everything is pretty much settled on "left click to select and right click to move", even outside of the RTS genre for the most part, but that was a time of more experimentation. Some controls were great and worked for the most part, like Diablo and StarCraft, and some weren't and didn't, even if the game was good.

> Did these devs never experience being a PC gaymer and dropping a game for being counterintuitive as fuck or something?

They were PC gamers, and they were used to every game doing everything in different ways and there being no standards. They didn't see the controls as unintuitive, because when you are programming a game day-in and day-out, you get used to the unintuitive and don't even realize how fucking weird it is. To be honest, as players you get used to the unintuitive. Two-button controls are far less intuitive than one-button (like Total Annihilation had), but it affords you less control, so it's worth the learning curve. You get used to bad controls for the most part; you're just not used to having to adjust because there's not as much variety in controls these days.

>>14832009

>Just wanna have fun

But clicking to move and then watching your avatar plod around while you sit there isn't fun. It's tedious.

>>14831960

As there weren't standard control schemes, click to move was easy for a player who knew no standard control scheme to understand. You don't need to read a manual to figure it out.

>>14832979

8 directions on a numpad is hardly more complicated than clicking.

>>14833021

Numpad, arrow keys, ESDF, WASD, etc.. Yes, it was more complicated than clicking.

>>14832662

Vim isn't a video game anon

Another corporate shill (or researcher) trying to dismiss good games to favor the current shit.

Good, old games are forever good.

The current shit games are forever shit.

Also: PC is great for piracy, so we won't give money to marxist companies, while still getting their products eventually.

>>14833167

You fuck off, casual. Indirect control systems that limit action pacing are literally the definition of casual.

>>14832662

Nothing will ever compare to FF14's original map controls being on I, J, K and L instead of the fucking mouse.

>>14832727

As opposed to having to hold down a button when all your avatar does is move around outside of combat?

>>14833167

There is nothing more casual than having your movement in the game world be handled by the game itself essentially.

>>14831782

Even today consoles have much better control schemes tbh.

>>14831749

JA2 is a complex strategy game, get used to a lot of hotkeys when you play these.

SS1 is literally WASD controls but instead SZXC, get good you fucking casual scrub.

>>14837297

>JA2 is a complex strategy game, get used to a lot of hotkeys when you play these.

I still can't find out how to modify weapons and unload ammo. It's due to shitty UI design and over-abundance of hotkeys instead of buttons on the screen like the Fallout games. In fact, it shouldn't be called hotkeys if there are no clickable equivalents. No, it isn't that complex, just stupid.

>SS1 is literally WASD controls but instead SZXC

There are still more functions than moving around + mouse.

>get good you fucking casual scrub.

Shut up faggot.

>>14831749

There wasn't much to look back on during that era, so everybody was winging it.

Things like controls seem obvious in retrospect, I believe Quake was the first game people started using WASD commonly, that was in 1996. First-person shooters have been around since the mid 70's.

It took first-person games over 20 years for WASD became standard.

>>14842458

*before WASD became standard

>>14842433

>I still can't find out how to modify weapons and unload ammo.

It's one click for either.

>It's due to shitty UI design and over-abundance of hotkeys instead of buttons on the screen like the Fallout games.

No, it's because you are retarded and can't read a fucking manual.

>In fact, it shouldn't be called hotkeys if there are no clickable equivalents.

Incredible.

>No, it isn't that complex, just stupid.

Much like your own brain.

>>14842458

We had WASD but Quake was the first game we started using mouselook in regularly. It wasn't the default, though. It was an experimental control scheme. For the first few months people in the Quake community swore by keyboard controls being superior, even the folks on the internet Doom ladder. It took starting to lose games to mouse users to change minds.

>>14831749

Because developers got better.

>>14833035

https://vim-adventures.com/

Yes it is.

>>14842803

In X-Men 2: Wolverine's Revenge the default control scheme was the arrow keys for movement and the numpad, for everything else, like attacking, jumping and "wolverine vision".

>>14831960

click to move is objectively superior

Guild Wars 1 had the option of click to move and WSAD. All the top PvPers used click to move.

>>14842897

That doesn't prove anything. Can you imagine playing an actual action RPG like Phantasy Star Online with clicking to move? The automated movement/pathfinding that is necessary for click to move to function means that any game with it has to have intentionally toned down action.

>>14842908

>action RPG like Phantasy Star Online

No, but can imagine playing an APRG like Diablo or Titan Quest with click to move.

>>14842924

Another great contrast. Diablo has shallow retard-tier action compared to PSO. Imagine if Diablo was developed from the start with a competent control system in mind.

>>14842908

<Click to Move

1 hand on mouse for camera and movement, other on keyboard for attacks., skills etc.

<WSAD

1 Hand for movement and buttons, other hand for what? Just the camera? What a waste of a hand, completely inefficient.

>>14842501

>It's one click for either.

Tell me how smartass.

>read a fucking manual

Games that huge should have a manual inside the game.

>Incredible.

You can only stand/crouch from hotkeys.

>Much like your own brain.

Tell me how video games make you an intellectual like rick and morty.

>>14842702

>Quake was the first game we started using mouselook in regularly

No, it was System Shock, and then Terminator: Future Shock. In Future Shock, SZXC + mouselook was the default controls. You also had a grenade button, making it at least a decade ahead of other FPS games of it's time.

>>14831960

>>14842897

The problem isn't click to move. It's Isometric perspective that's actually garbage.

>>14842908

That's because those RPG were tactic-based rather than action based.

>>14843021

>Imagine if Diablo was developed from the start with a competent control system in mind.

Oblivion and Fallout 4 are basically Diablo with more world interaction and FPS controls.

>>14842447

Seeing grown men struggle with the controls of a game about catching rabid apes is rather poetic.

>>14844967

Are they complete dogshit because they have no 10 year old girls you need to fap to?

>>14831833

>Japs didn't even have any idea how to utilize twin analog sticks effectively until like a decade ago.

You don't play games much do you?

>>14832009

>are jap games even worth playing, they get boring fast

>implying western nigger games are fun at all

>>14845001

t. goon

>>14831749

Fuck off underage.