/v/ - Video Games

you can't really have it both ways

you either design it for keyboard+mouse, or for controller

eg: butterlord for pc and console - pc controls better because the shit was not designed for a controller, and you can't do both beforehand especially since they didn't plan on releasing it for console

this is retardation, different types of games work much better with different control schemes

3D ARPGs play better with a controller, nearly all platformers play better with a controller, its common knowledge

RTSes and FPSes tend to play fantastically with a keyboard and mouse compared to controllers

fucking kill yourself

>>14752771

>A game should control well no matter if you play with mouse

Racing games

Why is it such a problem, OP?

>>14752771

You pretty much answer you own question - because laziness is the norm in our industry.

>>14752771

>What is analog movement

C'mon cuckchan, next time try to use your brain for a bit before posting

>>14752824

It's not the fault of the dev if their game genre requires more effort on the player to think why a controller would be better.

>racing game

<WOW I CAN'T MAKE THESE TURNS, FUCKING BUGGED DRIVING MECHANICS

Unless you are really autistic about racing games and you have an actual steering wheel, 9/10 you are going to have a controller for them.

>>14752771

>A game should control well no matter if you play with mouse and keyboard or a controller.

That's an ideal that should be pursued as best as possible, but the reality is that it's literally impossible for a game to control exactly as well across all input devices, because different game mechanics will lend themselves differently to different input devices. If you're making a game for PC, you should do your damnedest to make the M+KB controls as good as possible, since you can't assume that everyone has a controller, but the game's mechanics will always be what ultimately dictates the best control scheme, not the platform it's on. That's why it says recommended, and not required.

t. dev.

>>14752774

Doom, Duke3D, Blood, etc. all have both and all were good games.

>>14752905

Having to scroll between 10 weapons is awkward as hell with controllers, on PC you can just press a hotkey. Aiming with an analog stick is absolute hell and only accepted by people who never played a PC FPS before.

>>14752831

It's awkward, but not insane.

More or less keyboard manufacture's fault for sometimes squishing the arrow keys in to some fucking corner.

>>14752914

It's fucking shit. Movement belongs on the left hand, like it is on literally every other control device. Developers who push this arrow key + ZXCV shit without the option to remap need to be impaled on spikes.

>not playing keyboard only at all times

Pussy.

>>14752804

Flight and space sims.

Shooters shouldn't be controller based though, unless you have a degenerative spinal disorder.

>>14752903

And then there are games where the mouse doesn't even move the camera (90% of all japanese ports), or failing that games that simply have such retarded keyboard layouts that it's easier to just forget the whole thing

>>14752771

Because some games don't work well with a keyboard. The great thing about PCs is you aren't limited to one peripheral.

>>14752831

Reminder for you millenial faggots, that nearly all games used arrow keys for the right hand before Quake 1 came along.

Duke3d, doom, wolf, etc etc were all using arrow keys.

No one used mouselook, you played entirely on keyboard.

Even quake 1 had a console command to set mouselook. Stop retroactively applying your fads.

>>14752787

There are no games that could not be adapted to use keyboard and mouse, there is no excuse to not always support it.

>>14752771

>Game suggests I play it with a controller

>I can still play with keyboard

woooow

Controller is best when there's analog movement or only few inputs necessary because it's simpler and designed specifically to be held confortably on your hands to play games.

KB+Mouse it better when the game needs coordinate based input(cursor), many "hotkeys" or straight out typing.

>>14752923

It's alright, there's no reason the movement can't be on the right other than "it's the norm". It being on the right actually used to be the norm early on but it changed because jews. Some games even benefit from it like roguelikes that use the numpad for better diagonal movement and lots of letter keys as hotkeys.

>>14752935

> mouselook is a fad

that's a good one

>>14752936

Dork Souls is playable with keyboard and mouse but it is not more intuitive

>>14752923

> Movement belongs on the left hand, like it is on literally every other control device.

I'd like to say you should be b& for being underaged but sadly that is no longer the case, plenty of kids did grow up with all movement being on the left but it has certainly not always been the case

>>14752952

I think when he said "fad" he meant the "arrow keys came from doujin games" meme. The rest of his post was spot on.

Mouselook wasn't on the early games but it's undeniably better having to aim with a keyboard, or even analog sticks and trackpads/balls.

>>14752946

Interesting history, but as games advanced the button controls, and later the looking controls, became more complex while the movement controls pretty much stayed the same (outside of fighting games with their qcf nonsense). This is epitomized in PC controls where the precision control device (the mouse) is on the right and still isn't used for movement. So the layout that was intended to make games harder ended up making them easier in the long run.

>>14752961

I'm just going to assume you forgot a "than" there, changed the whole meaning into something retarded.

>>14752952

>Dork Souls is playable with keyboard and mouse but it is not more intuitive

It's entirely dependent on what you're used to, I can't use controllers to play FPS or Third-person games, I need to use keyboard and mouse.

>>14752984

See >>14752977

I am just incapable of navigating in a 3D space (unless it's driving) well enough with a controller to beat something like a Souls game, but I can do it just perfectly fine with keyboard and mouse. Why should I be forced to use a controller just because of your invalid opinion?

>I want every game made from the ground up for PC

It might be nice, but that's not the world we live in. As is, I'm just satisfied if PC gets a well optimised port of a console game. It seems a little autistic to complain that something doesn't play as well on a Keyboard when it's a wonder they gave it us at all.

>>14752985

>what should I use a hammer to bang in nails? I'm already used to doing it with my fist

>>14752992

Analogy does not fit.

>>14752804

Vid related uses a keyboard and still manages to win an online race despite getting rammed by assholes. If you can't drive properly using a keyboard layout then you can't drive, period. Mandatory wheel/pedal rules in online leagues is merely snobbery to gatekeep their sad little communities.

>>14752993

You don't want to use the right tool because you are already accustomed to using the wrong tool.

>>14752998

That game id gay shit. Come when you can beat me st WipEout with a controller, I'll be waiting.

>>14752952

>Dork Souls is playable with keyboard and mouse but it is not more intuitive

Once you get the controls setup properly it IS for the most part more intuitive. It has a couple of problems at the program level that makes KB+M kind of shitty, but that's not a fault of the game design but rather the porting.

Setting up KB+M requires mods in DaS1, requires autohotkey or similar in DaS2, and in both cases the target switching is fucked up so that if you move the mouse while locked on it will switch targets, usually very rapidly. If those issues were fixed then KB+M would be vastly superior. That target switching issue in particular is common to PC ports. On a controller they expect you never to touch the right stick while locked on. On PC you can't not touch the mouse because that's where half your buttons are, and if you do touch it it's almost impossible not to move it at least a little bit. Ideally target switching would only be done by button input, IE scroll wheel press to lock, up/down to change.

>>14752998

>cherry picking 1 match with randoms

Yes because that is definitive proof.

>>14752993

It fits pretty well, maybe with a shoe or a hard rock instead of a hammer, but it's pretty accurate. You don't have to precisely aim at shit(unless using a bow) then the analog stick is good enough for dark souls' camera movement. Meanwhile it benefits from analog movement and having the controls confortably mapped to certain intuitive buttons.

>>14752998

No one's saying you can't do it, it's just not as good. If you trained and got good with a different tool than the better ones, that's okay, but don't try to deny there are superior ones.

>Mandatory wheel/pedal rules in online leagues is merely snobbery to gatekeep their sad little communities.

Now that's retarded.

>>14753007

>Game works just fine on KB+M, except for the part that doesn't

> If those issues were fixed then KB+M would be vastly superior.

Nah, their "two hands" system tied to the shoulder buttons and triggers is much more intuitive and natural than whatever key mapping.

>Ideally target switching would only be done by button input, IE scroll wheel press to lock, up/down to change.

That wouldn't work as good because target switching isn't only on one axis, you can swicth targets for both sides and also up and down if there are enemies above or below the ones you're targeting. Not to mention you'd have to roll the whell up to switch to a target to the left or right, not as intuitive and natural.

You can play It with KB+M just fine, I did when I didn't have a controller, but it's much better with a controller.

>>14752963

It's cancer on German keyboards, since Z and Y are swapped and you have to remap it every time.

>People biting this bait and not even saging

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PEOPLE, IT'S A (1) AND DONE OP

Summer has come early this year, it seems.

>>14753056

I'm glad I'm not the only one who seen that.

>>14753037

>VP opening webm

>not one hour long

You fucked up.

Still a fantastic game.

>>14752771

>a game should control well with only digital inputs even if it's designed to be played with analog input along more than two axes

You're retarded, and you probably played consoles as a kid and only recently got into PC games. Those of us who grew up with PC games know that its true strength lies in the fact that you can use any peripheral, any input device.

>>14753005

>>14753013

>>14753000

So how did I easily beat Dark Souls games on keyboard and mouse but whenever I use a controller it's like I am a toddler without legs trying to walk? Why are you incapable of accepting that people who don't use controllers cannot play games on them well, regardless of your opinion on genres and control schemes? Is it autism?

>>14753063

this

vidya is typically designed from the ground up with one control style in mind, usually either M+KB if it was PC original or gamepad if it's a console port, and they're almost always going to play best on what they were originally designed for.

The great thing about PC is that you can use either whenever you need to.

>being a keyboard warrior

Controllers are easier to handle and hold, have all the buttons handy and take up less space and less heavy.

>>14752771

AM2R has that notice and it's absolutely correct, I played Super Metroid on an emulator, using a keyboard and the controls were a pain in the ass. AM2R on a controller is pure bliss.

I don't see the problem with warning players not to be obstinate retards and play the game properly.

>>14753085

>torposter shitposts

Like pottery.

>>14752998

Enjoy dropping out of the pack all the time because your throttle control is digital and you're not fast enough to pull out a "pulse width modulation"

>>14753087

>I don't see the problem with warning players not to be obstinate retards and play the game properly.

Modern PC gamers seem to have this idea that every PC game has to be played with a KB&M.

>>14752911

>Nioh and Dark Souls without a shit inventory system

If only

>>14752804

>I'm gonna show him how wro-

I haven't played Dirt 4 in some time, yeah. It's a shame it never got good.

>>14752929

To be fair, it's the fault of a shitty port, not the game per se.

>>14753000

>announcing death of PC

hit of years 1981-2018

>>14753056

then just report

>>14752940

This, but also the fact that you're going to perform better on a controller you're used to, even if it isn't optimal (unless it's a really shitty controller).

By the way, what are games that don't fit either game pad or kb&m? VR, Fightan and flying sims I know, what else?

>>14753129

see

>>14753190

There's also Steel Battalion

>>14753213

>Doesn't it live on in Japan because game arcades are a still a thing there, so a cockpit is an investment?

Yes

OP is a true PC guy. Everybody else is a closet consolefag.

>Not making the default way of playing PC games control well is just pure lazyness on the devs part

Yes, indeed.

You answered your own question. Why does this deserve a thread again?

Some game genres just handle like shite on the keyboard and mouse.

3rd person action games almost always do, despite what the lite pc master race on /v/ will tell you. If you use a control in Counterstrike then you'll get a warning advising against it, so why shouldn't Hollow knight try to spare the player a bit of frustration?

Also, just buy a controller or ask mommy if you're a NEET. They aren't that expensive.

>>14753937

You're a dumb nigger, just like the rest.

KB+M fucking sucks and is not the traditional way of playing games.

Fuck off with your spread sheet machines.

>>14752771

Because a controller is better for everything other than RTS and Doom, in other words games made this millennium.

>>14753990

Fake News

GTAV controls great on PC with mouse and keyboard.

Because analog and digital controls always suit different roles.

Also analog keyboards are shit.

>>14752771

>A game should control well no matter if you play with mouse and keyboard or a controller.

If you think FPS controls on a controller can ever compete with KB+M you're a retarded nigger. That's just one example, and there are many more.

>>14752771

>I play RTS games with a dance mat.

Holy shit OP you're hilarious.

>>14753988

>>14753990

Samefag

>people being this opposed to common sense ITT

I bet you assholes claim you can eat soup with a fork because using different appropriate tools is for pussies.

>>14754256

Something only a retard like yourself would think I'd use just to say KB+M sucks.

>>14754278

How are you going to play fps or rts without a keyboard + mouse?

And before you say something retarded like "they're shit genres" just climb on the highest thing in your vicinity and jump down in a way that you land on your head like when your retarded mother dropped you all those years back.

>>14754256

using a VPN maintains your (you)'s because those are tracked differently.

-t. VPN poster

>>14754309

FPS games are for kids and RTS is for gooks.

>>14752771

Try to play Guilty Gear with mouse and keyboard and see why.

Super Mario Brothers should play well with a keyboard or emulator devs are lazy, r-right?

>>14754336

Works for me.

>>14754215

I think that game with scheme good enough are enjoyable on kb&m too.

>>14752771

See the beauty of PC gaming is you can use the appropriate tool for any game you're playing on it, playing platformers, racing games, or fighting games with M/KB doesn't make you master race it just makes you inept or poor

>>14754309

>How are you going to play fps

With a controller.

>or rts

I'll just not play shit games, thanks.

Stay mad virgin.

Most games with driving elements make use of analog triggers

Even the few pressure-sensitive keyboards on the market don't have the same degree of sensitivity as analog triggers. You should be using an actual wheel/pedals though

>>14752771

yeah wtf why doesn't DDR play well on a mouse and keyboard

>>14754766

>yeah wtf why doesn't DDR play well on a mouse and keyboard

are you retarded?

>>14752963

Ignore him

>>14753070

You could still play well while having hemiparesis doesn't make having hemiparesis good for playing videogames.

>>14752935

>>14752952

Just because it was a way done in the past doesn't make it good. In the mid-'90s PC games saw a revolution for the better in controls with the idea of moving movement to the left on WASD. Indie hacks and the doujin scene are largely oblivious to this revolution. It should be mentioned though that the doujin scenes gets away with it because in Japan it's basically expected that you're going to be playing a game on a controller. ZXCV and arrows are used simply because they map to controller input pretty effortlessly.

You can't even say that games originally developed for PC are supposed to be played with keyboard and mouse. In the 90s, more people had a joystick than a mouse.

>Hardware devs put USB connections on the I/O panel by mistake.

I can't stop laughing OP you're a comedy genius.

<Some games are meant to be played with a controller

Except you can play them just fine by spending an hour to unfuck the peasant controls and button combinations via AutoHotkey. Which should be the job of the developer. "Up + Right + X", "Down -> Right -> X" — what the fuck is this bullshit? Why do I have to write a script to bind that shit to a single button press in the first place?

>>14752896

>best post is ignored by shitposters

You took the words out of my mouth. I was going to use the stylish action genre as an example, but I figured some mouth breather would post footage of that autistic Japanese guy playing DMC on a keyboard.

>>14752936

It's not an issue of support, it's an issue of which input device best inputs commands to the game.

>>14752940

>Controller are best for third person games. Things that require camera control.

That's not true for any third-person shooter.

>>14755372

>I was going to use the stylish action genre as an example, but I figured some mouth breather would post footage of that autistic Japanese guy playing DMC on a keyboard.

Considering the way some people get around style-switching while maintaining control of the analog stick, it's not that autistic, and a lot of people find Nero's shuffle more consistent to perform on keyboard.

>>14755521

You only need mouse precision when you need to aim at shit very precisely, as in trying to shoot at stuff.

If you just want to tilt the camera to a general direction, like in platformers or ARPGs, a joystick's practicalness beats the mouse's precision.

If a game is momentum based, having a controller feels more natural. If your character doesn't stop immediately when you let go of a keyboard key, it feels sluggish, awful, and wrong.

>>14752771

>Why is this shit a thing in PC gaming

The same reason you need to install 3rd party bloatware to even play the game.

>>14755804

only works for games without camera control though

>>14755804

I used to use a fighter stick for everything right up until dual analog controls became the standard

>>14755874

What the fuck, am I supposed the press the buttons with my dick?

>>14755910

You use the buttons on the sticks, unless you only need one stick to play the game, then you use the center buttons as normal.

>>14755607

That's not much different than clawing a psp when playing monster hunter really.

>>14752998

>a guy wins on a shit game against randoms with one faggot screwing everyone behind him

>that is somehow proof that keyboards are better for racing games

You surely showed him anon.

With kb/m you have no way to control throttle or steering well.

You could use mouse steering, which is complete shit, or somehow use the mouse for throttle, which is impossible in most games and shit on the games that it is possible.

>Mandatory wheel/pedal rules in online leagues is merely snobbery to gatekeep their sad little communities.

Wheel/pedal both grants higher control than controllers or kb/m but also completely changes the way it's played, since it's closer to a real car than holding "w" on your keyboard. It makes complete sense to have that as a mandatory rule in certain leagues.

>>14752984

I loved C&C on the PS1

>>14754336

No.