/v/ - Video Games

Metroidvania was a term specifically made to distinguish pre-SotN Castlevania titles from post-SotN Castlevania titles, which has now been overused to the point of meaninglessness. It's now used to describe any semi-nonlinear action platformer where progress is gated either by key items or movement upgrades, and every one of those descriptors gets a little less important from title to title. A lot of "Metroidvania" games are actually pretty linear, and 90% of them barely involve any real platforming.

>there has been a renewed interest in the Genre due to Hollow Knight

It's been one of the most oversaturated genres out there for at least the past decade if not the last 15 years, m8

>>14209119

I've barely heard people talk about the genre this much till 2017 to now.

>metroidvania

>genre

but that's wrong.

>genre

Look there's games that ripoff Metroid and then there's games that ripoff the games in the Castlevania series that ripped off Metroid and added RPG elements. The former vastly outnumber the latter. The term you're looking for is "Metroid-like".

>>14209198

You can miss transformations?

>>14209205

Yeah you can skip one or two if you don't feed your pikachu appropriately and never get them on the same playthrough.

I dropped that shit like nuke because of that and never played again.

Is Megaman a Metroidvania?

>>14209250

>"Metroid-like", itself, is a dumb name.

But is it as dumb as "metroidvania"?

>>14209250

>it's like continuing to call FPS games "Doom clones", or calling all JRPGs "Wizardry-likes"

That's exactly how the term "Metroidvania" is being used. It's a nonsensical slang term that doesn't describe a genre. It's almost as meaningless as "action-adventure".

These terms are like ebonics. Fuck ebonics.

To be fair I could care less about the definition of metroidvania, I just wish there were more games like SotN and onward. Every indieshit game you see that claims to be "metroidvania" is really just a metroid clone. No weapons/armor you can swap out any time, no level-ups, no RPG stats. Here's hoping that the graphics are the only thing that's shit about Bloodstained.

>>14209057

>Exploration

>Stats

>Collect things

>Aesthetic

>Music

Need at least 3 of each

>>14209105

Every fucking time. Same with Shantae, Guacamelee, or any "metroidvania" game that advertise itself as so. That really pisses me off.

>>14209113

Problem isn't really close/ranged combat, it's how everything works, even something as simple as game design. SOTN was geared towards weapon changing, whereas Metroid had something more of permanent power ups. I rather call those games metroid-like than metroidvanias, since it's a lot more fitting. Pretty much what this anon said >>14209119

>>14209158

It is metroidlike, but it's pretty fun. I should give it a try soon.

>>14209217

I don't remember that, though.

>>14209305

No.

Do the RPG elements make a Metroidvania game or do you prefer what Hollow Knight did?

>>14209352

RPG elements. Plus fucking weapon collection.

>>14209097

There are "famous" YouTubers out there who call Metroid a Metroidvania.

>>14209097

>>14209057

>>14209103

Metroidvania is any castlevania game that have features based on the metroid series, like a huge interconnected world and needing certain upgrades to pass through places otherwise inaccessible.

Everything that is not castlevania but have features based on metroid should be called metroidlike.

>>14209432

That's why I'm holding out hope for it. The graphics might make me want to vomit(the characters/assets in the foreground at least, the backgrounds look pretty nice) but the gameplay looks like it could be just what I'm looking for.

>like SotN but without some of the core flaws like how once you reached a certain level the game became a cake walk.

Don't forget the sword that can drop off of a weak and easily-farmable enemy that turns the game into MASH ATTACK TO WIN

>>14209305

It's pretty close, but "metroidvania" at least creates a new name out of combining two of them, instead of just appending "clone" or "like" to an existing name.

>>14209432

The experience gaining and leveling up is just unnecessary. I'd rather a similar game where all stats were equipment based.

>>14209465

Why they didn't go for sprite based art or even 2D is beyond me.

>>14209476

I think if done right the levelling system could be done right.

>>14209523

because it would've taken effort and they don't wanna bother with that shit

>>14209476

>but "metroidvania" at least creates a new name out of combining two of them

And then winds up confusing the fuck out of people and failing to describe non-existent games that actually clone the Metroid-style Castlevania mechanics.

>>14209617

>>14209626

My browser froze and created the fuck up you see what I meant to say was, "I think if done right the levelling system could work out"

>>14209103

A miserable little pile of mechanics.

I just want a SOTN remake that changes nothing besides the graphics.

>>14210021

Shanoa is patrician tastes because she is a testament of an excellent combination a good back, tit/armpit, thighs and just-right butt

>>14209105

>super metroid

>you 1-shot enemies with screw attack

>you 1-shot enemies with V-speed

>no melee

>>14210669

>Melee movements require you to use an special input

>Melee combat

It was more of some added into it.

>>14210620

You'll be fine with Bloodstained.

>>14210669

That's like saying grabbing a power star in SMB is melee combat.

>>14210690

I don't like playing as a female character, makes me feel gay.

>>14210710

It's ok as long as she is sexy/pretty. See >>14210021

>>14210690

>You'll be fine with Bloodstained.

I really hope they don't fuck this game up.

>>14211879

You can check the demos yourself. So far is gearing towards the same gameplay. If it delivers with content or not is different, even when it's a really important part of the whole thing, but everything is indeed the same.

>>14212561

Shit didn't know there were Demos.

>>14212621

>>14212242

Wait shit, wrong file, and I can't find the correct one.

>>14212561

Alright the Demo so far is actually fun but the graphics make me puke.

Symphony of The Night and Aria of Sorrow. All Igavanias must be based on and improved upon those two.

>>14212819

I hear Curse of Darkness is good too.

>>14212824

It is. Curse of Darkness and Lament of Innocence should have set the pace and direction going forward, not Aria of Sorrow, AoS was the plateau of the 2d castlevanias and ever since that, the games have been struggling to reach the pinnacle of SotN.

>>14212897

>sotn

>pinnacle

It has a lot of content, but that doesn't make it the pinnacle. It's easy in general, there are several ways to become completely overpowered, and the second castle is terribly designed. Both ps2 CVs had a lot of problems, as well. Lament of Innocence had a bad case of copypaste, a bad camera, and some questionable design decisions. Curse of Darkness improved a lot, but the combat was a downgrade, crafting wasn't very well done, and having to grind up specific pokemon to access certain secrets was dumb.

>>14211722

in what fucking universe is this a trap?

long hair =/= feminine

>>14212938

Nothing fucking wrong with becoming overpowered.

Actually it what makes it good, is that you can become death, the destroyer of games, not some shitty ass mario that can only trow fireballs.

>>14209103

A single map not divided into stages, usually 2D, that you are set loose on with a vague objective and are expected to achieve primarily by exploration and collection of new tools that open up previously forbidden areas. Usually has some puzzle solving elements, as well as massive boss monsters and a plethora of opportunity for sequence breaking and other skill-based techniques to get places you "shouldn't" be yet.

>>14212962

There is when it barely takes any effort to become overpowered, especially in a game that's still easy when you aren't overpowered. Being destroyer of games should be something you have to earn. In SotN, you can easily just pick up the shield rod, Alucard Shield, and then never worry about dying again.

>>14212983

You wouldn't know it if you didn't read any guides.

Also finding alucard shield involves defeating most bosses in the games to begin with, including harder ones.

>>14212983

This and the intervened castle are SotN biggest flaws but still think it's a phenomenal game.

>>14212992

The Alucard Shield is just one of several methods, though. Chrysamere is a random drop from a not-to-difficult enemy, and you only have to face a single boss in the second castle to get access to them. It's not consistently easy, but it's still pretty effortless with enough fortune. And just about any weapon with a fast enough attack speed turns most of the game into a cakewalk.

>>14213025

And I mean crissaegrim.

>>14212938

>>14212897

>>14212995

SOTN is not really the pinnacle at all. The only thing it is better than the rest is visuals and amount of content, and half of it is cheating with the inverted castle being "half of the game". Most of the other games are a lot more polished than Castlevania. I'd love to see a Castlevania SOTN's director's cut with everything that was planned for the inverted castle if it wasn't rushed.

>>14213025

>>14213031

>crissaegrim

Yeah it's a pain in the ass to get, and again you wouldn't know it exists without guide or without going out for filling up in-game enemy encyclopedia.

So yeah fuck off wikibaby.

>>14212938

Look at all the improvement between LoI and CoD like you noted, they're no where near the point of diminishing returns for polishing mechanics and attempting new ones. Then look at SotN, AoS, DoS, PoR, OoE, there's not really much going on that makes those games stand out from eachother in terms of new mechanics and ideas. PoR being the one exception with the weird two characters stuff, but that was a complete wash. I don't know why they would make a coop game, and then make it singleplayer. Multiplayer is pretty much the one thing that they have left to experiment with in the 2d games.

It's not to say that SotN was perfect, it's more that 2D castlevanias seem to have plateaued and SotN will remain the pinnacle in terms of design (with its shortfalls) because for it to not be the pinnacle, something universally better would have to be made and it really didn't look like Konami was able to figure out what to do with the games aside from make fun but basic SotN clones. They weren't able to reach the same level of quality, depth, fun art, music, content, etc as SotN in any of the later games.

>>14213052

>again you wouldn't know it exists without guide or without going out for filling up in-game enemy encyclopedia.

Or it could just randomly drop during normal play. And your insistence, that the only way to find out about these things is through outside help, is silly. Just experimentation can lead to you learning how the shield rod works.

>>14213077

AoS eclipses it in all but graphical fidelity and sound quality, though. The majority of weapons and abilities in SotN are implemented in AoS, it's way more balanced, the soul system is a great way to add replay value, there's no dumb second castle, and Julius is a better Belmont.

>>14212983

>easily pick up the alucard shield

that's late in the game though, in fact its one of the latest places you can get it at in the game's stage you idiot

There's plenty of OP shit you can get way earlier than that, what a shitty example

>>14212992

I had the mormegil and from that point on it was a stompfest as I kept finding better and better weapons, though I experimented a lot and had fun

Also either the star flail or the moon rod is pretty broken if I remember correctly, whichever one had the faster attack speed, it was a fantastic weapon it was at that point you could argue things start becoming very easy aside from puzzles (read: getting past obstacles and unknown items preventing you from accessing secret areas)

>>14213052

Or you can get Soul Steal, which doesn't require a drop and with a bit of practice can be reliably done in battle.

>>14213138

>AoS is decent but SotN if far superior in every possible way.

rofl except, you know, the game design.

>>14213138

SotN didn't really improve on anything, though. It was a completely new kind of game for the franchise. It's also a prime example of devs going for quantity over quality. Yeah, it has more features and mechanics, but most are usually useless aside from one particular thing. The second castle is shit, and the game would be better off without it. AoS consolidated and polished what SotN had. SotN was the grand first experiment, AoS was the tempered execution of the lessons learned from the experiment.

>>14213178

>Combat is much better in SotN and the maps are pretty similar.

Combat is a fucking joke in SotN and AoS certainly has better level design.

>>14213178

>combat

>better

It's almost exactly the same. AoS manages to have better weapon type variety, though.

>>14213112

You're right that AoS' soul system was a cool new mechanic (not groundbreaking), but it also dropped a lot of mechanics, one of the best examples being SotN's quarter circle special attacks which gave lots of weapons entirely unique attacks that meant two short swords which would otherwise be a stat improvement, became completely different.

AoS was the start of diminishing returns (>>14212938 "AoS was the plateau of the 2d castlevanias and ever since that"), the DS castlevanias were the point where you could clearly see that Konami didn't really want to do anything knew, or if they did want to, couldn't really find anything new to do with them which actually improved the formula without going completely off the wall.

>It's also a prime example of devs going for quantity over quality

>most are usually useless aside from one particular thing

That's not true at all, by having a lot of fun mechanics with a shitload of variety some stood out as completely busted, but it's a singleplayer platformer, it's not a game which should sacrifice the fun of its mechanics and content to make sure it has a smooth difficulty curve.

>The second castle is shit

You know what? I liked the upside down castle. I thought it was really cool how just making the map upside down worked so well for making new areas with their own twists. I knew the structure of the map but I didn't know what was actually there, I could go to a place which I knew would have ~something~ and see what was there now.

Are Symphony of the Night fanboys mentally ill? Every now and then you get these tasteless retards that seem to defy all reason. Let's analyze Symphony of the Night shall we.

The game has pretty nice graphics and music. Okay, let's give it that at least. Some considerable effort was definitely put into both the look and musical fidelity of the game.

Moving one to level design. While the game attempts to rip off Super Metroid, it actually has a generally more linear structure: you get an ability, move to the usually singular next area of the castle and repeat. There is a mountain of shitload of abilities that you use once to unlock the next path and basically never touch again. Then of course you get to the halfway point in the game (upside-down castle) and they drop the Metroid facade entirely. Overall a poorly-executed world.

What about the stat system? An interesting idea but ultimately extremely flawed in execution. The game is absolutely laughably easy for the most part, but there are a couple areas in the upside-down castle with weird difficulty jumps. Then there are the myriad pieces of equipment you can easily stumble upon (either dropped by enemies or just lying around) which break the game utterly.

The difficulty once you get to the upside-down castle becomes schizophrenic. With very few exceptions (Castlevania III cameo fight, Doppleganger lv40 [a contest of who can damage the other fastest, outside the AI exploits], Death is much more complicated than the others but still quite easy, Galamoth obviously) the bosses there are absolutely laughably easy and stupidly simplistic. Most of them just sit on their ass and do nothing while you wail on them. Overly tough regular enemies are occasionally placed around the areas in a seemingly random fashion–armors near the central clock for instance, the demon-infested areas near the start, the heavenly sword enemies in the clock tower can be a real pain–while the other areas are still easy as hell.

With the Metroid structure now gone (no more new abilities to obtain to unlock new areas), the upside-down castle becomes essentially a relentless slog that reveals the problems with how slow movement is in the game contrasted with its huge areas. It isn’t as noticeable in the normal castle because there’s always a sense of progression going on, but with everything unlocked to you now, the huge size of the “new” areas you can immediately explore loses their excitement fast. If you want to get anywhere in a timely fashion you have to abuse the gimmicky movement specials in wolf and bat forms, requiring you to constantly re-transform and things come to a halt when you run out of MP. Movement in general is really irritating because, well, they just took the areas they actually designed and rotated them.

Ultimately, Symphony of the Night is a game without direction: they simply stuffed as much shit into it as they could. And I do mean shit. The outright majority bosses are fucking retarded and pointless, the upside-down castle was the worst gimmick ever, and the game is sorely lacking the intense, constrained action that previous Castlevanias had.

It also has some infamously terrible voice acting. But strangely some people find that a positive.

It is interesting how nearly every subsequent Metroid-like Castlevania improved on the gameplay featured in Symphony of the Night, yet some people still hold it on an undeserved pedestal.

>>14213229

>There is a mountain of shitload of abilities that you use once to unlock the next path and basically never touch again

How can you make a claim like that then not even cite a single ability? You're claiming there's a MOUNTAIN, and then not even give a single one?

>>14213202

You have the small fast weapons like daggers and fists, standard swinging sword like the majority of SotN's weapons, a few weapons that go straight out over a large distance, and the overhead swinging swords. In SotN, you've got straight swords and fast daggers, with a few minor variations of both.

>>14213214

>it's not a game which should sacrifice the fun of its mechanics and content to make sure it has a smooth difficulty curve

Random "fun" is not an excuse for bad game design.

>>14213247

>paragraphs and a long reply is meme spacing

Reported for rule 8.

>>14213247

Most of the post-Symphony of the Night games don't have proportionally nearly as many useless abilities or horseshit bosses, or a level design gimmick quite as lazy and awful as the upside-down castle. The only contender is Harmony of Dissonance because it couldn't get Symphony of the Night's cock out of its mouth.

>>14213253

Well, there's the blue gem, which unlocks a few doors and then does nothing else. The wolf form gets you over a single jump, then is practically useless. The echo-location for the "bat" is used for a single room, and that item is also used for a single corridor. The mist is used to get through a few grates, and then becomes useless, unless you really want to slowly pass through enemies once you get the upgrade to consistently maintain the form. The high jump boots are convenient for a few spots, but they can't do anything the bat doesn't already do. The imp familiar unlocks a passageway and is one of the least useful familiars, otherwise. And those are the abilities that at least allow you access to new areas. There's also abilities like the poison mist, which isn't useful in the slightest.

>>14213301

Oh, and almost all the post-SotN games have far and away better action and challenge balance. Harmony of Dissonance again being the exception.

>>14213304

The wolf form was actually used for something? I don't remember that. The high jump boots were used to get the bat form, iirc, since it was in the area with Olrox and that needed either flight or the boots to get to. Which means they are useful to get the ability that makes them useless.

>>14213360

You get the bat form from the raven guy in the clock tower. You can then fly up the center clock and get the boots.

>>14209057

>a good Metroidvania game

They are rare because cunts do not understand the importance of level design, challenge, rewarding puzzles etc.

Also the genre has been done to death.

>>14209218

lolno

>>14213373

I can't for the life of me remember what Olrox was guarding then. It was either echo location or some other item needed to get to Maria so you can do the fight that goes to the inverse castle. Which required glasses that seemed like they should have more uses than just the one fight.

>>14213360

>>14213373

No, raven guy gives you double jump. You use double jump and the mist to get to the deeper reaches of the library, where the bat form is.

>>14213414

No, wait, I think it's mist he gives you. You need double jump to get to the clock tower, in the first place.

>>14213414

>>14213425

No, fuck, mist is in the arena.

>>14209339

Don't be retarded. It precisely describes the genre to a tee.

>>14211722

>massive shoulders 2.5 times as wide as hips

>trap

Are you blind, retarded, or both?

>>14213304

Okay anon, you win.

I'll go play Symphony of the Night and Aria of Sorrow right after just to make sure. And I'll see what I can come out of it with, with both games fresh on my mind. Because you make decent points to some of the issues of SotN, but nonetheless, AoS was still mediocre in comparison so I'll go find out exactly why.

>>14213505

Both of you made me want to play both games again.

>>14213442

>>14213442

>>14209339

Why not call it a Metroidlike?

Also fuck 4X genre

AoS is actually a lot better then I remember but it still doesn't match up to SotN for me.

>>14213688

while i do think it's a nonsense mindset it does genuinely emasculate some males, which I can also understand.

>>14209103

An inaccessible little pile of secrets

>>14213138

The whole game was better designed. I give you that SOTN had way more things, which is why I mentioned the content, but when it comes to map, story, and even drops THE WHOLE SOUL SYSTEM, AoS is better.

>>14213178

>Combat is better in SOTN

Not really, they are about the same. In fact, there's more variety in AoS with the souls and some special weapons.

>>14213202

t. faggot

Nice bait.

>>14213138

>AoS is decent but SotN if far superior in every possible way. AoS didn't improve on much of anything as SotN did. SotN had way more features and mechanics. If anything AoS is just a handheled, watered down SotN

I'd have to agree with this.

>>14215199

Has to many issues, in my opinion.

>>14215199

It's the worse metroidvania and a really bad classicvania. You can't just half-ass the combination.

>>14215550

All you just said is "it's good" without any real substance to back it up. The standard walk is completely useless, and having to double tap to move at a decent speed is annoying. While the card system is fun, actually acquiring the cards is an awful grind, especially if you want the late-game ones. Most of the abilities are incredibly situation, and a few are just different versions of "move this block out of the way". The soundtrack is nice, but it is almost entirely just remixes of old tunes. Nathan is one of the most boring protagonists in the series, only losing out to those without any character (like Simon), and Juste. It's a good game, just it's is far from the masterpiece you act like it is.

>>14215581

I forgot, the castle feels incredibly empty, there's a lot of copypasted rooms where you need to use said "move block" abilities, and a large portion of the enemies are just palette swaps of each other.

>>14215199

I didn't even like the card system and I still agree. Only post-SoTN Castlevania that actually managed to give me a run for my money instead of becoming a snoozefest 20 minutes in.

>>14215550

>It's the best blend of classic and metroidvania

Only because the other one is Castlevania 2 that somehow is worse. CotM is shit.

>>14215592

This.

>>14215646

>Shut the fuck up. Nobody cares.

I do, exploring the castle, one of the main features of the damn game, is a fucking pain in the ass. Not being able to control your momentum while jumping only slows you down since there's barely any platformer and since there isn't insta-death pits, it's pointless and only adds to the artificial difficulty of the bosses, just because you move like ass. The double that just make it worse.

>grinding out the drops is as equivalently shitty and boring as grinding out souls in AoS (which magically gets a pass

It's because it's actually varied and fun to collect. You can do combinations of souls too. Sure, there aren't a lot, but it's an interesting mechanic, a lot more interesting than the cards shit.

>The castle is designed well

>Empty hallways

>Empty fuck huge spaces

>Dead end hallways with no rewards

>well

Opinion discarded. The only good thing about it was enemy placement, and they better had seeing there aren't a lot of them anywhere.

>Just admit that CotM is objectively the best Castlevania/Metroidvania the world will ever experience

It isn't and I hope there isn't other like it ever.

>>14215676

It isn't hard, it's just annoying, not on itself alone, but it's so slow, it's a pain in the ass, not even Richter move as slow.

>>14215646

>grinding out the drops is as equivalently shitty and boring as grinding out souls in AoS

First, there is a soul for every single enemy, while there are only, what, eight cards of each category? And only one category has any variety in effects, as the second category is all smaller variations on the first category. This means you feel less obligated to grind souls, as you'll naturally have gain more abilities from them throughout the game, as opposed to the few you'll get in CotM without grinding. Second, cards only drop from certain enemies, you're given no hints as to what enemies drop cards, and some of those enemies appear in a single room. Since you know each enemy in AoS has a unique soul, you're not left wondering if an enemy will drop a new ability or not, because every enemy will.

>The game has more replayability than all others

AoS has inherently more replayability on the normal mode compared to CotM's normal mode, has an unlockable hard mode that adds new items to find, has a lot more secrets to discover, multiple endings, a boss rush with various unlockables, and has a second playable character. Harmony of Dissonance has a similar amount of modes, and even more endings. CotM has four extra modes that changes some stats around and

either gives or removes all the cards, and you are required to beat them in a specific order. There are no extra playable characters, no boss rush, and a single ending.

>Nathan is a DEEP and nuanced character that grows and matures as the game goes on.

The only character Nathan has is that he starts out without much confidence and has confidence by the end of the game. Hugh goes through much more character development than Nathan, and he's the goddamn rival character.

>>14215910

>This means you feel less obligated to grind souls

>True end is literally hidden behind a soulgate

>feel less obligated to grind souls

Keep your dumb mouth shut.

The card system is great, but it is not without flaws as you've mentioned. The drop system was not the greatest and could definitely be improved, but other then that it was superb. Remove the bugs, improve the method for acquisition, and you've now got the best thing imaginable with infinite potential, no further changes necessary.

>AoS has inherently more replayability

It doesn't, and the only reason it has a hardmode whereas CotM doesn't is because it is pisseasy. It needs a "hard" mode to put it on the same level of difficulty that CotM starts and ends with. Other stuff, like boss rush, is superfluous, as they are dependent on game difficulty, which everyone knows is pathetic in all post-CotM games. Replaying the game for the other endings is a chore and a half, since the base game experience is ezmode and just not all that fun, to say nothing of how "worthwhile" those endings are (protip; they aint.)

Secondary playable characters are cool though. CotM doesn't have that, and that'd be fucking sick. I wish you could replay the game as Hugh or something, but oh well. It was the first of it's kind, on a then-new system. Some allowance must be given.

However, the class system functions roughly the same as another character entirely. It changes gameplay drastically enough that Nathan is like a whole new duder.

>Character

Hugh's development is indeed amazing, but it only serves as a springboard and parallel for Nathan's. Like a twisted mirror or some other overly gay prose. It's some Shakespearean shit man, but suffice to say Nathan begins the game as a static and one-note character, but by the end of his journey he has seen enough, sacrificed enough, and changed through his interaction with the villains/Hugh to have become a dynamic and fluid character, full of hope and change. Great character.

>>14215899

>You can't have good exploration without empty shit

The absolute state of CotM fags to defend their shitty empty castle. No, you need at least a shitty object at the end to at least justify wanting to go that way. Sure, you got HP ups, but nobody gives a shit about HP ups, I want weapons, armors, consumibles, that's what SOTN is about. Why bother exploring everything if not everything have something on it? SOTN and AoS always had little nice rewards in form of items, even if they weren't practical, and there were even HP ups as well.

>tricking you into believing it's not as empty as it is. Great game design.

>empty as it is

>Good design

Yeah, right, and I already mentioned the enemy placement which was the only think going good for it. Otherwise there's no other items, so there's no reason to explore, and there's barely any enemy variety. Something else, people love the game for Dracula's second form design, and I agree, it's great, but the rest of the enemy design is utter shit.

>we aren't ever getting any Castlevania ever again

I don't know anon, this looks and plays exactly like SOTN with added elements of AoS and DoS.

>>14215973

The true end requires you to get a total of three souls, one of which is freely given on a pedestal and required for general progress. The game gives blatant hints for which three you need, as well.

>Other stuff, like boss rush, is superfluous

If that stuff is superfluous, so are the minor variation modes in CotM. Difficulty isn't everything, either, and CotM is barely difficult. The only hard part in the entire game is Dracula's final form.

>It changes gameplay drastically enough that Nathan is like a whole new duder.

Not really. You still have the same abilities you would in the normal mode. They just incentivize using certain abilities over others. You're still the same Nathan, you're just using sub-weapons more, or you're exclusively using the whip, or you're using more spells.

>Character

Nathan is a two-state machine. He's not confident, and then he is confident. That's his entire arc. That's the only thing significant about him. Hugh goes from jealous and bitter to nearly betraying his friends to seeing his own weaknesses and the wisdom in his father's decision. Nathan starts one-note, and ends one-note, only it's a different note.

>>14215978

>Why bother exploring everything if not everything have something on it?

The absolute state of children given everything they want at all times. I bet you're a big fan of the 'hit button awesome happens' type of shit too, huh? Go play a mobage, you disgusting louse.

As you already mentioned, halfway cognizant of the issue, putting rewards everywhere makes them meaningless. Who gives a FUCK about meaningless items? Why would I want to explore for meaningless shit? You need those empty and pointless treks through a game to give meaning to the things you do find. You'd know this if you weren't roughly as old as CotM itself.

>enemy design is shit

Cry some more, you giga mega ultra turbo final ultimate nigger. The enemy design and variety wasn't amazing, but their placement in the game was. I repeat, CotM had a great level and castle design. Places flowed naturally together, all with a stellar atmosphere from A to B.

>this looks and plays exactly like SOTN with added elements of AoS and DoS.

Did you post without a picture or any other tells to signify what you're talking about as tacit acknowledgement that we are NEVER EVER getting another Castlevania? no? must have been too witty and self-aware for you.

>>14216015

The true end of CotM requires a grand total of zero (0) cards. This means the card system has objectively less obligation to grind out than souls. Eat shit, nerd.

>You're still the same Nathan, you're just playing completely differently, or you're playing completely differently even more, or you're playing completely differently still yet.

Fixed that for you.

>>14216053

>The true end of CotM requires a grand total of zero (0) cards.

There is no true end, just the end. That means less replayability.

>Fixed that for you.

There is not that much difference between using the whip and spells, or just using the whip, or using spells a lot more. You're just taking away one option of gameplay. Actual different characters completely change your options of gameplay, rather than just giving you a small part of the original set.

>>14216073

>There is no true end, just the end. That means less replayability.

>Games are only enjoyable for their story

End your life. CotM makes up for it in other ways, regardless. Such as being fun to play in the first place. Also, good job at sidestepping the argument, but I won't forget. AoS objectively requires more grind, and to make matters worse it is pointless grind (cause those souls are shit,) simply to complete its true end. CotM does not, and therefore beats it out in that aspect every single time without fail.

>There is not that much difference between using the whip and spells, or just using the whip, or using spells a lot more.

Way to simplify. There's a world of difference. Being a fragile spellcaster changes the game so goddamn immensely as compared to, say, being the FIGHTER with 99999999999999 hp and whip damage for days. It is not quite another character, no, but it's good enough.

>>14215550

>(if it wasn't bugged to shit,)

I consider the DSS trick one of the best bugs in the vidya actually. It's easy to do and completely optional. The only thing preventing you from cheating is whether you want to or not.

>>14215581

>having to double tap to move at a decent speed is annoying

Never touch a fighting game.

>>14215795

>I do, exploring the castle, one of the main features of the damn game, is a fucking pain in the ass.

rofl what. Circle of the Moon is literally the only Metroidvania with a good movement speed for exploration and you think it's a pain in the ass? Do you actually enjoy mashing that shitty backdash mechanic to get anywhere in a mildly timely fashion in Igarashi's games?

>>14215899

I don't get the emptiness complaint at all. Circle of the Moon puts up a fight in just about every room of the game. Harmony of Dissonance is the only Metroidvania that truly feels like nobody is home in the castle.

>>14216053

I quite disagree with the enemy design complaint anyway. Circle of the Moon is a great example of how to do palette swaps the right way in a game, actually. Almost all of the palette swaps (the special vampires and candles being the only exceptions I can think of) have fundamentally different behavior. In fact if you were to compare all the different attack types in Circle of the Moon I think you would probably have more enemy variety than most of the other games. CotM is one of the few games that actually gets me excited seeing a palette swap as I wonder what kind of interesting attack this upgraded enemy is going to throw at me compared to the last one.

>>14216126

Fighting games at least have a reason for slow movement. CotM has none.

>>14216121

>putting words in my mouth

If you're going to argue for replayability, don't then try to say it's a bad thing when another game has replayability. CotM gives you one final boss with one ending. That means less point to exploration, as there's nothing to find that significantly affects how the game plays out. By contrast, SotN has a final boss and ending if you don't do a lot of exploration. If you do bother to explore, you get another (admittedly shit) castle to explore, a different final boss, and a different ending. All the Igavanias reward exploration with additional bosses, endings, and sometimes extra areas to explore. CotM does no such thing, only rewarding exploration with minor upgrades and enemies that you have no idea if they'll even drop anything good.

>AoS objectively requires more grind

Only if you want an extra ending. What you don't seem to understand is that the grind is just extra on top of the same amount of content that CotM has. You never grind, you get the same experience as you would CotM. It's like having two meals, and the second one comes with extra sauce if you pay for it. You're criticizing the second meal for making you pay for extra sauce, when the first meal has no option for extra sauce in the first place.

>>14216185

>Later metroidvanias solve the backtracking speed by giving you some ability to move faster

Yeah, at the end of the fucking game where it no longer matters.

>The other anon already acknowledge that the damn thing is empty

Well they're wrong, and so are you. Do name some of these hallways that are actually empty though. I know the game pretty well and all I can come up with is previous boss rooms. Circle of the Moon even does the incredible service of ditching those shitty fucking loading corridors that Symphony of the Night needed to hide disc load times that a few games quite insanely thought it would be a great idea to ape.

>>14216201

Yes we get it, you enjoy the taste of excrement and are really proud of it.

>>14216192

Yes, thank you for repeating my point. Different enemies should do different things. Everything else is just aesthetic.

>>14216221

This can of course be contrasted with the many of the enemies in Symphony of the Night and Harmony of Dissonance that, while all having quite different sprite art, mostly just sit there non-threateningly and let you hit them. I'd say that's a more important critique of enemy design than palette swapping.

>>14216197

>You never grind, you get the same experience as you would CotM

This, the only reason you would grind is if you wanted an specific soul, if you don't you can just go moving on your game as you would want. In fact, that's why I like AoS, each playthough with different weapons and souls from drops makes a different experience.

>>14216198

> where it no longer matters.

>Implying you don't have to backtrack to get more items/souls/secrets/extras

Right, I forgot CotM was linear and didn't have any items.

>Do name some of these hallways that are actually empty though

Pics related. I can keep going on and on, but most big rooms were empty, vertical rooms are empty as well, and I just remembered this long ass hallway exists. The first pic is when I realized the game was going to be shit. Flying enemies are the worse thanks to Nathan's shit movements and the fact that they are faster than Nathan, hence why Death is "hard".

>ditching those shitty fucking loading corridors

Nigger, they are only relevant in the saturn version.

>>14216201

Subsequent games are more polished. They are only at fault for being portable games.

>>14216216

Shit argument. You don't need to grind except to get specific souls.

>>14216221

The difference is barely noticeable, that's my point, faggot. The projectile is either slightly faster, it shoot more projectiles, or it moves differently, that's about it.

>>14216244

Sure, mostly because you kill them too fast. No one is arguing SOTN difficulty, and anyone who does must be an idiot. What is being argues is how CotM is complete shit both on it's own and specially compared to the other games, my argument being that it fails as both classic and metroidvania.

>>14216264

>This, the only reason you would grind is if you wanted an specific soul, if you don't you can just go moving on your game as you would want*

*Unless you actually want to beat the game proper or something but lmao who even does that :^)

Soul system is shit. It's unfun, there's billions of souls that are absolutely worthless, and it's literally required to grind them to beat the game. This is objective fact and it is impossible to prove me wrong.

>>14216260

>"It has less replayability because it only has one ending."

That's not what replayability means in the first place. I know some of us are a little confused because of years of hack reviewers conflating extra content with replay value, but let's clarify our terms here. Replayability is literally whether or not the game is fun to play over again. This is usually determined by how much depth the individual mechanics have to make it compelling for a player to think of some self-imposed challenge or different way to play through the game again.

>>14216291

None of those are empty you silly sausage.

>>14216264

>that's about it.

lol, because a projectile that makes you jump is the same as a projectile that makes you slide underneath is the same as a projectile that tracks on you and requires you to fake your movement trajectory to avoid. They're all projectiles, so it's trivial! This argument is shit and you know it.

>>14216381

No replayability either, unless they have more than 1 ending.

>>14216381

>bullet hell

What you posted is not danmaku, and that's an awful comparison.

I will say a legit criticism of Circle of the Moon is that the cross is the best subweapon by an extremely wide margin and most of the other border on useless. Funny how I never hear its critics mention it.

It's a pretty legit criticism of several other Castlevania games as well though, including SCIV.

Anyone else play the Bloodstained demo?

>To be more vania than metroid a game needs to have

>wide weapon variety

>RPG elements of different equipment and stat progression

Does this mean Salt and Sanctuary was the last recent castlevania game?

>>14220452

You sound mad and without arguments. I don't recommend you play CotM, it's shit game play might make you more susceptible.

>>14220405

>This and Chasm both dead

fucking fuck.

All I have is Iconoclasts And I can't beat Black, jesus fuck what a fight

>>14221807

> Iconoclasts

Isn't that Sjw filled?

>>14220405

This game worth a try?

>>14209057

>I was wondering what makes a Metroidvania game

Platforming + level up system

>what makes a good Metroidvania game?

Your opinion

>>14209403

Youtubers should all be put to death

>>14234897

AoS is pretty good been doing a few runs of it.

>>14210735

That makes it gayer though.

>>14234966

How on earth is looking at chicks gayer than looking at dudes?

>>14234976

You're playing as them, not just looking at them.

>>14234981

You're controlling them.

>>14234897

bump for this pls drop recs

>>14235568

What the fuck do you even mean, OP?

>>14234981

So your intents are penetrating them. Again, why is it a gayer to do that to a chick than a dude?

I'm about halfway through AoS. I'm finding it really hard to believe that people think SotN is easier than this. Death is the only boss I've died to so far, and that was once. The backtracking is worse, I got the double jump and ended up trying at least five different areas where the double jump wasn't quite enough which is autistic as heck. Underwater level is incredibly obnoxious and in general the combat is complete shit and has no depth. Comparing SotN's magic, weapon variety and special attacks to AoS just pretty much having the enemy souls and one attack on the weapon you have equipped (and all weapons being mostly identical). Art and music is so below par it's shocking people would even compare AoS and SotN. That alone is enough to disregard AoS. Level design in general seems a lot more generic and nothing has really stood out to me yet, except for the nifty extra dimension levels where they're all in different places and they lead to different areas depending on which way you go through the door, but then I'm not sure if I like that it's kind of autistic. I'm not sure what is meant to be good or better than SotN.

>>14213229

Nice copypasta.

circle of the moon was good for its time.

other than that it falls short to latter entries.

One of the best final Boss designs though.

Metroidvania is a pretty retarded term considering that Metroid did all the hard work.

>>14213304

>poison mist

>not useful

More like overpowered. Poison mist can turn difficult enemies like the armors around the clock room into a cakewalk for easy levels.

On my first playthrough I had Crissaegrim drop randomly. One of my all-time favorite games nevertheless.

>>14245828

Thanks, I expand and refine it all the time to account for all the failed attempts to refute it. Why reinvent the wheel every time when you've already composed a good essay?

>>14246884

Is that Trevor Belmont? So it was going to be set during the great war? Sounds hype as fuck.

It's kinda sad though, whenever I read about Igarashi, he's always talking about doing what the fans want and actually justifying his actions just by saying "its what the fans wanted" makes me even more annoyed about Lords of Shadow. Nobody wanted this so why was it made?

Igarashi

Better make Bloodstained good

>>14247471

No, that's Alucard.

It was pretty much going to be Symphony of the Night 2.

>>14246884

>more 3D crap

Shit, indeed.

>>14248219

Curse of Darkness was fine

>>14248300

Is this what our baselines have shifted to now? Garbage like Curse of Darkness is "fine" just because it's not Lords of Shadow?

>>14248473

Considering there are people now saying Monster Hunter XX wasn't so bad because at least it wasn't World, yeah, probably.

>>14248473

Curse of Darkness was better than any of the DS games.

>>14209385

WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?

>>14209385

Doomclone didn't move past that though.

>>14247777

Quads confirm, it will be good from everything I've seen so far.

>>14248473

Curse of Darkness have always been good, better than LoS at the very least.

>>14250651

I wouldn't say that. They are about the same quality, being made about the same year. It's just a different angle.

>>14209250

>Metroid practically created the genre.

Metroid created jack shit, it was just merely a well execution in an already existing genre.

There were many sci-fi 2D platform adventures games release around the same time and Metroid just happened to be one of the better ones.

>>14251750

Feel free to name some. Last time somebody made this claim they couldn't come up with a single game that actually had Metroid's action ability based progression before it.

>>14248473

I thought "at least it's not Lament of Innocence" was the standard.

>>14250949

Curse of Darkness had the proper castlevania art style, better music, a pretty okay decent story about revenge instead of something ripped from a shonen, and the combat which makes up almost the entirety of the game was better. The only thing missing was the platforming. I'm not sure why they just didn't have any platforming at all.

>>14252144

I remember enjoying Lament of Innocence so I tried to play it again recently and it's complete and total crap. They made a lot of progress between that and CoD.

>>14209103

metroid and castlevania

>>14209463

Then what megaman games fall into?

>>14278145

I… what? Mega Man doesn't have any of the features of a metroidvania or metroid-like. That's the dumbest comparison imaginable.

>>14255102

>instead of something ripped from a shonen

Sure, but the gameplay itself is as good if only missing the slightly better combat CoD has. The only reason DoS and PoR had shitty art style and story is because Konami is full of retards, and yet, PoR characters hold pretty tightly when it comes to representation Despite looking so different, Wind is a pretty cool "old Eric", and the whole drama with "John was a shitty father, except not", was pretty cool.

>I'm not sure why they just didn't have any platforming at all.

They didn't know how to go about it. Hector's movements are pretty awkward already, can't imagine platforming in there, plus, their focus on "3D exploration" fucked them with map design. The biggest flaw in CoD is being a hallway simulator.

>>14287740

Well, the first Megaman Zero game can be classified as Metroid-like, same with ZX.

>>14288073

Knock CotM and to OK tier and HoD to shit tier.

>>14288087

I'd move both to "they tried" tier.

>>14288073

Man, i really hated Portait of Ruin's bad excuse to recycle the paintings as "inverse paintings".

That worked on SotN because it was all the fucking castle inverted, not just a few areas, that's why it was memorable.

But then i got to Order of Ecclesia and their laziest attempt, "let's copy these maps mirroring them horizontally!".

I had this idea semi-recently of a gimmick for a sort of abstract El Shaddai type Igavania. What would you think of one where

<killing enemies gives you exp and money, but no item or equipment drops

>instead, you get equipment and powers from meeting the different NPCs filling the map, and from discovering their personal secrets

>you can find these secrets by exploring, by fighting people or doing missions for them, and other similar methods

>70% of what you collect from these secrets is entirely optional, but the closer a secret is, the better the reward for discovering it

>meanwhile, money can be used for things like buying consumables, some pieces of equipment, or crafting spell words to augment the power of your equipment a la Nier

>>14288286

put them to the top of your back log

>>14288220

Inverted castle on itself was pretty half assed and it's actually remembered as the worse half of the game compared to the rest. Maybe it could have been better if it wasn't rushed.

As for portraits, yes, that sucked. I do like the idea, though, but there were only 4 different portraits. Imagine 8 or more different portraits with alternate versions each. I think PoR lacked variety of environment even when it's environment is pretty unique. Even OoE with it's lazyness is a lot more varied, what with the skeleton cave, mountains and a fucking prison that doesn't make sense for that year?

>>14288286

Build a dedicated emulation machine and keep it offline that's how you keep 90's console immershion.

>>14209057

exploration

good music

good art/animation

good ambience

versatile power ups(metroid) or boost stats equipament (metroidvania)

>>14209232

but it sucked for some reason

open world and megaman does not mix well

>>14220405

its a full game?

>>14223833

The creator is part of the SJW indie clique, the game has some DIVERSITY, and the main character has a slight tumblr nose and a mouth that can't close for some reason, but the game itself is pretty decent. He should've been able to do better given the 8 years it took him to make it, but it's not bad.

>>14288519

If you want some real DIVERSE indie clique SJW goodness, though, Dandara came out a couple days ago.

https://hooktube.com/vabfaRJoatU

>>14288436

It's in development.

>>14288413

I disagree. It just feels halfassed with ZX and with Zero 1 it might be due console limitations or just laziness, or both. But on itself, Megaman X and so on Mechanics pretty much fits an overworld perfectly well.

>>14288549

Sweet black baby jesus that's inclusive.

**I could swear I've seen this game somewhere but it was surreal shit instead of diversity. Maybe that pre-pre-show thing from E3, I think?

>>14288549

This is extreme fantasy. Black women don't engage in action and adventure. They eat, get pregnant, abuse and murder their children, and continue the decline of their species.

>>14288549

>fight against oppression

>one leap at a time

im gonna vomit

>>14289423

Sounds like all women.:^)

>>14212242

>being a loli weeaboo faggot

>>14212242

Is it because you are a loli weeaboo faggot?

>>14291668

Classicvania is superior to Metroidvania, but Metroid itself is superior to Classicvania.

>>14213396

>Also the genre has been done to death.

I wish this were true, but it never feels like that that's the case to me but then I don't pay any attention to the Western indie scene

>>14303931

This. Every single one"metroidvaina" it's just metroid.

>>14214136

the only good one

>>14209402

The name is pronounced "samoos" though, only amerifats say "sames"

Bumping with Bloodstained crafting.

>>14326541

OoE, SOTN… That's what I remember. Maybe Megaman ZX. I need more.

>>14329437

So you don't get bored while you explore.

>>14329461

Why would I get bored while exploring? Is it because of a lack of background decorations and architectural aesthetics or foreground platforms and obstructions?