ed607f No.14005034
What do you think of classes, jobs, careers… In rpg in general ?
If you pay attention closely on them, you will see that all of them are divided between two main class: Warrior and mana user.
It's the main scheme for many rpg but it seems that now days it becomes more and more annoying. I want your opinion on the subject.
ed607f No.14005049
* I mean; this is not the schema that annoying me but classes which derived from them (warriors, sorcerers, ranger…)
Each time, they bring the same kind of classes
ef1b84 No.14005064
>>14005034
>Melee
>Far
>You shoot things
>Melee
Stop
4fe451 No.14005078
Anyone ever notice how eastern games tend to call them "jobs" while western games like calling them "classes"? I know it's just a holdover term from DnD but still.
ed607f No.14005080
>>14005064
Yes, the one who made this was retarded. That's why I prefer the term " mama user and non-mama user
37e81b No.14005086
ed607f No.14005096
>>14005081
Oh fuck!
I mean mana
b8e7fe No.14005101
Extensive class systems give me a stiffy.
I don't care if there are 15 variations on 'hit guy with stick' or 'throw matches at people'.
I just want more and I want to combine them.
fb8273 No.14005112
I don't like jobs or classes. I like skills. Everyone should have skills they can level up and improve in, independent of classes or jobs or whatever, and then they naturally fit in to a role depending on their skills. Let certain people be more effective and learn certain skills more quickly depending on their base stats, and the game can then assign some kind of title to holders of certain skills, and that should be good enough.
654276 No.14005119
>>14005034
You haven't played many games i take it.
a0a8e7 No.14005132
>>14005101
ToS has a horrible system though, it's not even a class system you can build on because half of them use different fucking weapons.
Talk about wasted potential, ToS is the poster child of it
80cc11 No.14005135
>>14005101
That's only 4 classes.
No point in having dozens of unique classes if they're abandoned for something completely different when you advance.
They're very customizable, but in the end it's just 4 classes with custom skill trees.
ed607f No.14005138
>>14005119
What make you say that ?
6bc87b No.14005154
>>14005080
We talking /ara/?
24819a No.14005165
>tfw no online game with 300 classes in which I can pick one nobody ever uses so I can feel special
57244c No.14005171
>>14005101
>Most of the swordsman tree is Sword and board
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>Shitloads of unnecessary classes and "rank upgrades"
>None of them let you combine swordplay with magic
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>Even if they did allow this it would mean you suck because all MMORPGs force you to specialize/min-max or you make your character shit.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>Will never have a good game that lets me use both two handed sword and magic well as some sort of spellsword or magic knight because most MMORPGs never go beyond letting you do some sort of sword beam or gap closer as melee and insist on keeping the two separate
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
a0a8e7 No.14005176
>>14005171
oh you think that's bad?
You can't even play what class you want. The Rank 7/8s completely outshine lower ranks because the damage calculation has a raw in it, that basically means "higher rank class=more damage" except in very rare cases
5fe3b4 No.14005186
>>14005034
>chart
>no spellsword
>no magitank
>no ninjutsu master
>not even a single muscle wizard
Shit chart is shit.
If you can't freely mix classes to break balace to hell, who gives a crap.
ed607f No.14005249
>>14005186
As I said before, this isn't my chart and many classes are hybrid (paladin for example) but classes you want are rare or inexistent. And I wonder why they don't mix them
61b08f No.14005281
>no class that revolves around sickening your enemies making them bleed from every orifice
why live
24819a No.14005322
>>14005080
There's a bit of drool to the left of your lower lip, clean it.
c83deb No.14005326
>>14005034
They aren't bad idea, but majority of times every uncommon class is just useless or depends on gimmicks for few stages after that they become useless too. Also balance issues.
>That image
It's complete trash.
>Implying that support and healing can be only done with using magic.
>Not dividing ranged into separate category.
>Areas of effect or weapon types not mentioned at all.
>Also classes roles can be mixed. Like spellblades, summoners or everything else that makes sense in specific RPG world.
>>14005249
It requires effort on game devs part.
0bd4cc No.14005392
Games in which you pick a class are shit. I prefer games in which you start as a blank character and as you level up you specialize into certain direction.
Also, traditionally there's 3 classes. Warrior, archer/thief and mage. Archers shoot missiles that you need to buy every now and then.
26dd3c No.14005398
People boil these things down and never actually look at how they are implemented. I swear to god, I just want one person to go 'huh, turn based is dumb and so is turning my game into a 1st/3rd person bar manager' and actually come out of it with something inspired. The Undertale community can eat a shit, but at least the gameplay is something different. Fuck the story, I like the idea of combat basically being a SHMUP sort of thing minus the shooting. Would have finished the game if it ever evolved past that.
ed607f No.14005409
>>14005326
>>14005392
I understand what you're saying but why my point doesn't work which is "MANA user and non-MANA user". I will defend it by saying that archer/ranger/thief and other grenadiers are still non-mana users.
>>14005094
>>14005081
>>14005154
>>14005262
>>14005313
>>14005322
>>14005387
Stop making fun of me.
cab5ab No.14005416
>>14005398
Different bosses shaking things up by introducing things like platforming and rhythm games was pretty fun but lacking, if only it went further than that
cab5ab No.14005419
>>14005409
you deserve to be made fun of
0bd4cc No.14005452
>>14005409
Paladins are warriors that use mana to heal and a spellsword is a mage that use melee weapons.
Still, the traditional 3 main classes are warrior/thief/mage so there's 3 rather than just two. Warriors use physical power, mages use mana and spells, thieves use stealth and ranged weapons.
cad63e No.14005455
>>14005034
Classes are shit because they restrict the kinds of builds you can make, I only tolerate them as starting points like in Daggerfall/Demon's Souls.
3cf894 No.14005512
>>14005409
It's bully time mama lover
78e15d No.14005528
I absolutely love healing and even better if my heals can turn into damage is some game mechanic.
d5851d No.14005531
>>14005387
>tfw you will never taste akiko's jam
42fc1d No.14005536
>>14005409
>mama
>just killed a man
3363e6 No.14005544
>>14005531
I wonder what her secret ingredient is.
c83deb No.14005549
>>14005409
>why my point doesn't work which is "MANA user and non-MANA user".
It's too overspecialized.
>Stop making fun of me.
Are you aware that you made it worse just from writing this here?
1232a3 No.14005576
>>14005034
They should come up with new styles for these classes. I am kind of tired seeing the regular paladin, thief, cleric/priest and wizard as classes.
Also I kind of miss job extensions from early 2000 MMOs.
24819a No.14005584
>>14005576
And I miss MMOs in general.
Now they're neither massive nor multiplayer, and they're just shit in general.
23cdef No.14005610
>>14005034
That's not really an accurate division of roles and it depends highly on the game you're playing. You are speaking in such broad and vague terms that it's almost pointless to have this discussion. Consider that your model is completely upset by the introduction of traps and things that don't require combat to succeed against. Jesus even modern RPGs are not exclusively combat. mostly because then they wouldn't have any narrative to push their gay trans-elf romance
The model set forth by basic D&D which begins at fighter, cleric, thief and magic-user is the more commonly used and appropriate one for RPGs in general because the roles describe more than just what kind of role they have in combat. The thief is always the most skilled character that disables complicated traps and frequently is also good at talking to people. If anything the fighter is like the thief but with less skills and more focused on combat; it's the same with the cleric, who gets more spells than the magic-user but they are more focused on combat, whereas the magic-user becomes Batman with magic at later levels, able to pull out a spell that instantly solves the situation regardless of whether it's combat related.
It depends on how the skill system in your RPG is set up but generally there are these things you need to do in an RPG:
>Fight things
>Apply skills to solve problems
>Make the right choices, from a narrative perspective
The first two are divvied up in various combinations and capacities to different classes and the last one is down to the player. Many "unique" RPG systems are not at all that unique because they take all of these class features and try to shuffle them around a bit between classes; they are only unique to people that only play D&D and its derivatives.
Personally I prefer a classless system that allows you to spend XP on skills and features on a piecemeal basis, it usually ends up being more interesting.
ed607f No.14005624
>>14005549
>Are you aware that you made it worse just from writing this here?
Now I'm aware
>>14005610
So…class in video games (RPGs) were a mistake?
dd5543 No.14005638
>>14005080
>mfw no mama to use me
bf70d4 No.14005646
>>14005034
>this thing works but I'm a hipster so I will complain that it isn't new
8ba863 No.14005657
>>14005034
It's difficult to provide a high degree of freedom on a machine-based system, and when it's done properly, it's usually based on some form of emergent gameplay- think western 3D RPGs, they offload as much of both the decisionmaking and outcomes onto the player as possible. Contrast with predecessors: In a fluid tabletop using a storytelling/free-form system, the DM is a human machine that chooses the outcomes while the players lob decisions at him.
As far as your dichotomy, what other damage is there? Very few games attempt a mental/sanity system, and spiritual classes (cleric, bard, shaman, druid) tend to be relegated to just healing/buffing because it's hard for machines to decide if your song is actually good.
>>14005112
My functional ideal would be a metric fuckton of skills with natural progressions.
Actively dodging attacks progressively status up your nimbleness, giving more responsive controls, and eventually you get a roll skill and sprint skill. Sprinting a lot and doing different things opens up a charge attack, evasive maneuvers mode with a top-down shooter style control scheme, and a passive 'marathon runner' skill. Evasive maneuvering a ton with a high enough roll skill opens up rolling attacks, where if you time it right, rolling past enemies will let you jab at them or slice with certain weapons, if you're good with bows, you can learn 'active stance' to pop up and be ready to fire as soon as you finish a dodge, and high enough proficiency in the skill your time to dodge drops until you get 'apex acceleration', essentially letting you teleport if you're light enough weight, so on and so forth.
Gates limiting efficacy would be player stats, gear, physical ability to execute, and time investment so you can't just run
>apex acceleration + super tank taunt + periodic invulnerability
consequence free.
c105bb No.14005665
>>14005409
It's about how a character deals damage and adsorbs damage. You could have strong base attributes that continue to grow. You could be weak but have spell points to spend on buffs and damage dealing spells. You could be weak and have no spell points and rely on equipment and items that you find. Any class is going to fall into one of those three categories or into a combination. Often, hybrid classes like rogues and rangers will use "skill points" instead of "spell points" but it's still basically mana. Ultimately, your observations are limited to your obvious inexperience in this genre of games and you really are not saying anything insightful.
23cdef No.14005673
>>14005624
Class is a rather niche concept invented by D&D because it suited a wargame which was converted to a storytelling game. It makes things simple and defined for combat rules, basically just like defining a soldier and his stat block in a regular wargame. The popularity of D&D resulted in this concept proliferating to just about every popular RPG on the planet whether or not it actually made the game better because thats "just how RPGs are made." It's not a concept that has no merit, I think it's fine for games that focus on combat, but it's really just limiting in any game where you expect the player to make a serious attempt at narrative play.
c105bb No.14005693
>>14005673
It's been mentioned above in this thread, but skill systems really expanded what a computer RPG can be. Not sure who did it first. May have been ADOM. But now many games have a blank slate and it's up to you to pick skills that go well with each other. There are games like Fallout and Planescape that actually provide decent non-combat solutions for every encounter, granted you've combined skills intelligently.
23cdef No.14005811
>>14005693
My absolute favorite is actually the changing job system in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. It's a much more "realistic" take on the class system and it also portrays the progression of your character very well. The way WHFRP (2nd edition) works is that when you make a character, you choose (the game recommends you roll randomly) a career. These are not "warrior, thief, wizard" jobs. They are "carpenter, huntsman, charcoal burner, rat catcher, peasant farmer" jobs. Each job has a suite of skills, talents/feats, and stat upgrades you can purchase, once you purchase all of them you can choose one of the job exits for that job and enter a new job. There are no levels, you spend XP points on skills and talents and stats directly. Thus a WHFRP char sheet won't look like "Level 12 lawful neutral male human fighter" but "male human sergeant (ex-soldier, ex-outlaw, ex-vagrant). Also every single character will have a unique progression and it is reflected in both mechanics and narratively. Top tier system for a proper storytelling game.
c105bb No.14005838
>>14005811
I could get into something like this if I had people to play tabletop games with.
1ff52a No.14005853
>>14005080
"OH NO, IT'S A MAMA-USER!"
HA HA JOESTERS MY STAND'S NAME IS [YOUR MOTHER SHOULD KNOW]
IT'S POWER IS TO TELEPORT COOKIES INTO ANYONE'S ESOPHAGUS IF THEY STEP INSIDE MY [HOUSE]
c105bb No.14005867
>>14005853
You're a faggot.
e7f959 No.14005870
>>14005281
Are there seriously no video games with a cancer mage?
3363e6 No.14005888
>>14005870
Warframe has a frame that's a literal walking bag of space aids, you can even infect other players.
8c37df No.14005921
>>14005080
Try might or magic, retard
23cdef No.14005930
>>14005870
>>14005281
There was a spell called Crimson Plague from the MUD called Carrion Fields. It was a necromancer spell and causes your target to bleed from every orifice. It is also contagious as fuck and everyone in the same room has a chance of catching it, even the caster is not fully immune. Healing was also rare in that game relative to most other MUDs/MMOs considering you had to do RP wankery with the admins to gain access to a healer class, so you had to run to an NPC healer capable of curing it before dying. It wouldn't go away until it was cured by magic.
7a3485 No.14006101
81913f No.14006112
>>14006101
You are saying it like it's a bad thing.
ed607f No.14006164
b6e238 No.14006201
>>14005171
Play Mabinogi then, faggot.
1039f5 No.14006299
I like classes and I think dungeon crawlers do them pretty well. Also multiclassing is always fun and so is new art for the characters if there is class changing
90a727 No.14008554
>>14006101
Damn at this rate (You)'s will loose all stock value. They'll be worthless.
ffd40f No.14008578
>>14005870
Grim Dawn has a class with a bunch of plagues as attack options.
331159 No.14008630
Class systems can be cool if they have a deep enough branch system. An ideal class system starts off with only a few possible classes (maybe 3-4), because there really isn't that much variety in a level 1 guy with no significant skills. The more you level up, the more classes are theoretically available to you depending on how you've been investing your skills. For example, a guy who was a mage at level 1 could advance to fire mage by focusing on fire magic, then to say, pyromancer (pure fire magic), demon lord (fire+summoning), or burning sword (fire+sword proficiency).
Even better if there's a good balance and reward for all play styles: the highest level skills in each field should be reserved for those who completely dedicated themselves to it, but there should also be tons of ways in which a creative player can combine multiple disciplines to his advantage.
4f82d7 No.14008645
>>14005853
>get enemy stand user to step into house
>teleport 50 cookies into his esophagus
>can't breath
>dies
pretty powerful stand
de489b No.14008709
You could have a class whose main role is leading the party, sort of a pointman/quartermaster class. Opening doors, disabling and detecting traps, preparing supplies, etc. Arguably the archetypical thief class fits this role, but it's often portrayed as a small variation of the fighter, with backstabs instead of decapitations.
>>14005576
>cleric
When was the last time you saw a proper fucking cleric in a game? Tell me.
bbdfeb No.14008736
>>14008709
Picture unrelated? Because yeah, he's basically the middle ground between fighter and mage, with a mace like a whiffle bat.
de489b No.14008756
>>14008736
That's what a cleric is though. It's a magic-using melee class with a focus on faith-based attacks.
a37073 No.14008888
>>14005888
And you can buy him for only $9.99!
393b15 No.14014762
>>14005049
>I mean; this is not the schema that annoying me but classes which derived from them (warriors, sorcerers, ranger…)
Well, in D&D at least, they actually made an interesting distinction between sorcerers and wizards (sorcerers have innate magic and wizards study to learn magic), and gave sorcerers slightly different mechanics (spontaneous casting, using Charisma instead of Intelligence). I really like that distinction. Even though D&D isn't my favorite system, it did help me discover that the sorcerer is my favorite character type.
>>14005078
"Jobs" is a holdover term from Final Fantasy, though.
255dee No.14015222
>>14005853
>Ora ora you're not interested in an old stand like me, are you?