/v/ - Video Games

Mark you faggot kike, i thought you liked the nintendo why did you nuke the gamecube thread.

>2D shmup

>>13829901

Did you get this from facebook?

>>13829913

No I made it to post here eons ago during a discussion on Starfox Zero. OP is posting it again because some dumbfuck thought games like Panzer Dragoon, Starfox, and Twinkle Star Sprites were "rail shooters".

>calling Super Metroid knockoffs that lack any of the RPGlite elements from Symphony of the Night a "Metroidvania"

>>13829919

Actually I made it like 5 or 6 years to post on 4/v/. I'm flattered, though.

>>13829935

No you fucking didn't

>>13829901

>Game runs completely on-rails, no control over your movement at all and you must shoot projectiles to avoid them

Guess that means time crisis is a shoot em up.

>learn my pronouns: the thread

its simple

>anything thats made by homos for homos:rpg

>anything made by beautiful manly men for beautiful manly men: action

>Thread gets deleted

>Being so assmad you remake it

Wew though

>>13829991

Wasn't my thread. Getting real sick of quality discussions getting wiped by scorched earth deletion though.

>>13830001

It was getting too off topic so I deleted it

t. OP

>>13830000

I agree except Cave Story doesn't play like Metroid at all. Stop confusing the missile upgrade homage to direct gameplay parallels. Cave Story is a fairly linear game that makes very little use of the ability-based progression that is the key feature of Metroid-like games.

>>13830000

quads of truth.

>>13830016

>Cave Story is a fairly linear game

I do admit there's barely any backtracking, but there is, I think you can backtrack some areas to get items, like the first cave in the game to upgrade the polar star, isn't it? I guess it isn't metroid-like at all, but how'd you call it, then? Specially when I doubt there's anything else like it.

>>13830037

Isn't it a platformer?

>>13830037

Well, it's clearly some kind of open-world run 'n' gun (of which Metroid also belongs), but it isn't really in Metroid's distinct little sub-genre.

>>13829901

<mixing arcade games with a lightgun in hand with highly detailed graphics at the time vs a shitty console game that barely topped the bare minimum of fluid movement and motion, with a crappier controller made for three arms.

>>13830062

>vs a shitty console game that barely topped the bare minimum of fluid movement and motion, with a crappier controller made for three arms.

b8

>3d games are just a gimmick

>>13830000

Great post. I've felt that same frustration. I love Metroid, but what I REALLY want more of is games like AoS and OoE, not Metroid ripoffs.

Action RPG is a broad term encompassing all RPGs with a real-time combat rather than turn-based. It can be anything from Secret of Mana to Dark Souls.

When talking about the specific genre of Diablo/Titan Quest/Grim Dawn/Path of Exile, the proper term is hack'n'slash, even though they are technically also ARPGs.

>>13830501

Why are your graphics so shit?

>>13830515

I'm running this on a laptop

How would you define the term "Role-Playing Game?" Why do some people say JRPGs aren't real RPGs because they don't offer many choices, yet they have no problem with games like Albion or Betrayal at Krondor being called an RPG?

>>13830521

Wheres your desktop?

>>13830532

It's from 2004. I'm poor.

>>13830522

Nice flag, but at this point it's mostly just a convention. When normalfags say RPG, they mostly think of games like Skyrim and when they say JRPG they think of games like Final Fantasy.

>>13830551

Oh and there is also the term CRPG which is mostly used for old PC RPGs like Ultima and Might and Magic. I also heard people refer to Gothic 1 as a CRPG. I also heard the term SRPG or TRPG for games like Final Fantasy Tactics. Let's also not forget ARPG and Diabloclone tags. Finally there is also MMORPG, for games like WoW, so yeah RPG has a lot of prefixes.

>>13830594

> and why electronic RPGs are exponentially more popular then table top.

I disagree, I think the reason why they are so popular, is because, with electronic singleplayer RPGs, you don't have to go to a place and play a game for 2-4 hours with either complete strangers or your friends, instead you can play it whenever you like it, however much you like it, you don't have change your schedule to accommodate the other players and DM, you don't have to drive there or take the buss, you don't even need to socialize. Yes a computer is a shitty, dumb and naive DM that will railroad your game most of the times, but for most normalfags that is ok, and it's better than the alternative.

>>13829938

he was cute as a teenager

>>13830665

Well games like Dwarf Fortress are extremely random but due to the detail of the game and how stupid things turn out, you usually have fun even if things are going completely to shit. I've never played tabletop though so I don't know what the experience is like.

>>13830686

Oh I by no means think that randomness is bad or table top RPGs would be fucked hard in the ass. Dice rolls are important for making everything much less straight forward. What is bad is random DMs personal ability to randomly come up with satisfying memorable scenarios consistently and change details on the fly in regards to events. This is different from randomness in an RNG sense to one rather in a "humans are unreliable" sense.

>>13830717

I've never really encountered an entirely incompetent gm/dm, so games are usually pretty memorable. Players are insane and generally can't be railroaded very well so everything tends to turn out really unique. Unless they just murder everyone until they die but I've never been that guy and those people aren't cut out for roleplaying anyway.

You only see a chaos terminator caber tossed to his death once

>>13830717

So shit relies on the DM? I can see that potentially being awful.

>>13830757

That's exactly it, potentially. There are amazing DMs and there are not so amazing DMs. Because of how open say, DnD is, players can create characters from scratch, and the DM needs to through scenarios at them following the established rules of the game (in this case DnD creatures, themes, areas etc). So each individual session the people who have characters are making choices as to what to fight, how to fight it, what their goal at the moment is, what the long term whatever is, and the DM needs to reflexively act on this while (hopefully) keeping some vague notion of his original campaign idea alive.

>>13830804

Problem with rougelike was the fact it became used in advertisements. I have no fucking idea why but people use it to promote their games, like Open-world.

But also:

>Dungeons of Dredmore is not roguelike.

Bravo you turned genre from a point where it was too watered down to where it won't be useful to use.

>>13830665

>While partially true, that applies to all vidya and not just RPGs in particular, so it isn't very useful.

It's actually incredibly useful, because most games involve playing a role in some way, shape, or form. Video games have become a much more convenient form of entertainment for the vast majority of the target audience of tabletop RPGs.

>>13830804

Isn't Dungeons of Dredmore also a roguelike? Or is the odd one out Nethack for using an ASCII interface?

>>13830982

>>13831004

tiles == not roguelike

>>13831013

All of those use tiles.

>>13831027

DCSS wasn't made graphically, it was casuals who picked it up and added tilesets.

>>13830522

RPG, for me, is generally a game where you can level up stats, allocate points, play around with different gear and have decisions that impact the story.

>>13830982

Platypus is a ducklike

t. indie dev merchant

>>13830622

Age has hit him like a train.

>>13829901

Fair enough. But both are shit genres that I don't play.

>>13831640

Oh yea, don't post the replies countering his arguments or anything. Just post the one saying that SotN is shit, instead of any of the ones addressing the "this genre doesn't exist" retardation.

>>13831685

Both the replies where actually backing the guy up.

>>13830000

Metroidvania refers to the kind of map structure present in both Metroid and Castlevania. You can lean more to the Metroid side, or more to the Castlevania side. both are valid.

>>13829926

But you don't move forward as if on a rail in those games.

>>13831262

Developers aren't the final word in genres. The pretentious faggots at Retro Studies try to act like the Prime games aren't first-person shooters but it doesn't make them correct just because they made the games.

>>13831815

>Developers aren't the final word in genres.

No. Some guy on a imageboard with his own definition that no one else agrees with is the final word, obviously.

>>13831828

Do you have an actual argument besides fallacies?

>>13831834

If most people say the genre is one thing, what authority do you have to declare that incorrect?

>>13831838

Cold, hard logic. Appeals to authority are shit.

>>13831848

You don't have authority, nigga. Mob rule beats your nothing.

>>13831855

You apparently don't seeing as you keep conflating House of the Dead with Star Fox. Anyone ever explain to you that using sloppy language results in sloppy thoughts? Here we are on a Mongolian haberdasher forum and you seem to prefer having deliberately confusing, obfuscated discussion just so you can feel good about belonging to the status quo.

>>13831872

Super Meat Boy and Earthworm Jim are both considered platformers, while they are clearly very different games. There's room for variation within a genre.

>you must shoot all projectiles to avoid them

Also, that's not even true of every game in this particular subgenre. Time Crisis had the cover mechanic.

>>13831882

I'd consider them both rail shooters. House of the Dead is a first person rail shooter (or light gun game), while Starfox is a third person rail shooter. That's all.

>>13831882

>(17)

Yes, that's correct, I have made quite a few more arguments in this thread than you have. Are you embarrassed that you're so bad at supporting your argument?

>>13831718

>both

There were more than two replies to him. I know, because I was in that fucking thread.

>>13831899

Your entire argument is "I say it should be this way". You're trying to impose your personal definitions on something that is decided entirely by mob consensus, when the mob has already decided against you. You may as well go argue that Resident Evil isn't horror because it isn't scary to you.

>>13831903

The problem is you call Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition as being part of the light gun game genre and it really doesn't have very descriptive power.

>>13831943

Light gun shooter is a shaky term these days, since the actual light gun technology isn't really in use anymore. House of the Dead on the Wii didn't use a light gun. Is it still a light gun shooter? I don't know.

>>13831307

Can platypuses (platypusi?) be domesticated? Are they usually rabid?

>>13830426

Conduit was hilarious. I remember holding the remote with certain buttons down and just shaking it because it turned the pump action shotgun into an automatic shotgun, albeit a very inaccurate one. Then of course you go on multiplayer and there's the inevitably guy who cut his disk to get an infinite ammo, no reloads, machine gun rocket launcher because that works for some reason.

>>13829901

>Do a barr

-T. Peppy Hare

>>13832215

Terraria isn't really a survival game, though. You've basically posted a spectrum of games. Terraria is an action-platformer with a rebuildable world, but with no real survival mechanics. Don't Starve is a game focused on survival, but the terrain can't be reshaped, and there's no movement aside from horizontal. Minecraft is like a blend of the two: it's got survival mechanics, but doesn't put as much emphasis on it as Don't Starve, while it's also got the destructible world and action platforming that Terraria has, albeit in full 3D and at a different perspective.

>>13831305

I've never understood why JPRG fans cling to the wild mis-classification of their genre like this. It's really weird.

A completely linear story with tactical battles in between 20 minute long cut scenes and corridor progression does not an RPG make. It's not that JRPGs don't offer many choices… It's that they offer no choices where it matters. Your character is predefined. Your characters actions are predefined. Their relationships are predefined. The core of an RPG isn't leveling up (though meaningful character building and progression IS something severely lacking in JRPGS) and it's not hackneyed plot. It's playing a role. Creating a character and exploring a world or situation with that character. That is the core of what an RPG is, and they are so few and far between in the bastard genre that they are aberrations not definitions of it. JRPGs oddly enough started off more in this vein but nips are terrified of having freedom for some reason so they slowly creeped closer and closer towards treadmill worlds with pinhole plots.

>>13830594

The DM you describe is a bad DM. That is not how you ease people into RPGs (unless they're JRPG fags I guess?). You ease new players in by having them design their own character and shaving off rule systems that aren't necessary. Any DM who runs a campaign with "two possible endings" is Will Wheaton levels of shit. Any DM running a campaign where players are only allowed small choices over what items to use with little control over their characters actions is doing a fucking awful job of teaching people what an RPG is about. You have either never played a P&P RPG, or you've played with exclusively bad people.

Those people you describe did not play an RPG. They sat around while the DM told them a story and let them roll dice. I doubt you can understand the difference…

>>13832513

>Creating a character and exploring a world or situation with that character. That is the core of what an RPG is, and they are so few and far between in the bastard genre that they are aberrations not definitions of it. JRPGs oddly enough started off more in this vein but nips are terrified of having freedom for some reason so they slowly creeped closer and closer towards treadmill worlds with pinhole plots.

There are plenty of real RPGs that limit, sometimes greatly, your character creation and roleplay choices. Not to mention that your GM or fellow players might veto your individual choices.

>>13830501

The levels of modding here are so high that it's blurred the line between Oblivion and Skyrim.

>>13831640

>negligible change to castlevania's design change

>negligible

Are you fucking kidding me

1 sentence in and my brain cannot handle this blatant falsehood and utter retardation.

>>13832215

>Terraria

Building and base building, as well as a destructible, manipulable environment and resource gathering are all mechanics, but they're not the core. The core is action platforming against a variety of bosses and raid events. There is a very clear "win state" (beating the final boss), and a linear path to get to that win state (beat all the other bosses, alien invasion happens, destroy all the alien monoliths, final boss shows up). The "mine" and "craft" parts are there to serve and enhance the action/platformer elements, not the other way around. Additionally, survival is very easy assuming you aren't an idiot and challenge bosses and areas that are out of your league; the starter area is very safe, and you only start getting challenging enemies once you go looking for them.

>Minecraft

Surviving in Minecraft is so laughably easy that I'm not even going to consider it a survival game anymore. And beating the Ender Dragon is so boring that I won't count that as a main feature either. No, Minecraft is more of a Lego Set kind of game, where part of the appeal is having to earn said Legos by finding them in the world or making primitive infrastructure to build them. It's about what you can make. And of course there's the many, many, many minigames but whatever. Let's be honest here, Minecraft may have started and defined a new genre, but they did NOT do it best.

>Don't Starve

This is a game where SURVIVAL takes center stage. If you get careless, there's a very high probability you're going to die. Literally everything you do is to stave off something that's trying to kill you, be it hunger, madness, cold winter, hot summer, or the many, many roving monsters. Additionally, you have to have backup plans, since your base can be devastated by certain monsters and wildfires. You also have to prepare for the changing seasons. Winter can be harsh because plants stop growing and you can't venture away from your campfire without warm clothing or you start freezing to death, but the real killer is summer, when food rots more quickly, you start taking overheating damage (which is much harder to prevent than freezing), and your base may randomly start catching on fire. Honestly I think it takes it a little TOO far with the "everything you've worked for can be randomly destroyed" thing. But you can turn wildfires off if you're a weenie like me I guess. Anyway, you really can't get into a really comfortable "I am not going to randomly die if I get careless" situation until REALLY late in the game with Don't Starve, and by that point you should be looking for bosses and challenging Adventure Mode (where you have to survive on specially seeded maps with harsh conditions such as long winters, hostile monster spawners everywhere, or a neverending night). This is the "win state", and even then, you're still having to constantly think about survival BEFORE looking for the teleportato pieces to move on to the next world.

>Video game genres are determined by the way the player interacts with the game

<Platformers are games in which the player will jump from point to point, usually in a linear environment, while dodging hazards and engaging enemies, in order to get from the start of the level to the finish

<RPGs are games in which the player assumes a role

Is this the best logic under which to operate? Under this logic, practically every game in existence is an RPG because you assume the role of a character.

>Video game genres are refined by the minute differences between games

<In RPGs, the player assumes a role and builds a character according to a level of abstraction that dictates his or her progress, and RPGs tend to be very story oriented in order to allow the player character a manner of freedom with which he may solve problems and achieve certain outcomes

<DMC is a "hack'n'slash" title because the combat system is the player's central mode of interaction with the game

<Dark Souls isn't a hack'n'slash but is instead an ARPG because stat allocation determines the effectiveness of the player's repertoire in combat

<One game is described by a term that itself is merely a description of something you can do in the game

<Another game is excluded from being described by said term, even though it's possible to do that same action in both games

Ever pick up someone's ipod and flip through the 'organize by genre' tab and notice when they misspelled a certain genre label, so now there's a split between "hard rock", "Hardrock" and "Hard rock"? Ever head the argument that, "emo is totally a unique and justified genre label and is in no way related to screamo or pop-punk because the lyrical style is different"? Yeah, well, this kind of sloppiness tends to happen because the person who is responsible for labeling things - like your 12 your old sister or your tech illiterate grandmother - possess no understanding of the labels themselves, perhaps they lack the desire to edit and proofread every single file in their library, or because people think that when something has one single and distinctive feature that it somehow deserves to be recognized as something totally unique, even when said thing tends to possess qualities that would otherwise place it into an already existent category.

My point is that some genre labels are pretty fucking vague and pointless when you take the time to really consider them. What the fuck is "Emo" even supposed to be? Isn't all music created to invoke an emotional response in the listener? Human emotion is a huge and vibrant range of thoughts and feelings, and all music can speak to it and be inspired by it. Oh, right, but "Emo" as a genre is supposed to describe a rock band or artist that usually a uses metal or punk-rock aesthetic and sound to express concepts centered around depression and "the darkness within my soul," right? Therefore, you could say that bands like Linkin Park, AFI, Bullet For My Valentine, Avril Lavigne, Rise Against, and Smile Empty Soul are accurately described as "Emo", but you will tend to find a subsection of these groups' fans who will cry about why band X or Y isn't accurately described by this term, and for subjective or ridiculous reasons.

I say, "fuck you, quit trying to complicate this whole process." It's quite fucking simple; Hard Rock is a broad genre, and maybe it deserves to have sub genres like Punk and Metal. Maybe there is a point in making a distinction between bands like Slayer and The Ramones. However, there's not much of a distinction between Slayer and Bullet For My Valentine. They're both metal bands, and the major difference in their craft can be primarily attributed to their lyrics. Moreover, you can say the same thing about punk bands; Blink-182 and Sum41 are just as much "punk" as bands like The Misfits or the Dead Kennedys. Why go through the trouble of creating sub-sub genres? It's a pointless and redundant endeavor and all it manages to do is further obfuscate the process of organization, which is the whole fucking point of having genres in the first place. That sentiment goes for video games, too.

In short, if you can use simple language to describe a game [or anything else that needs to be placed in a genre], then

JUST FUCKING DO THAT INSTEAD OF REVERTING TO SOME GAY VAGUE TERM YOU NIGGER HOLY SHIT

or use already existent genre terms to give people a quick and simple understanding of the thing that you're trying to describe.

>>13832629

>a Lego Set kind of game

In other words, not a game at all. A game is a set of rules and goals to test the player's skill. You can certainly make a game out of a set of Legos, but that doesn't make the objects or set of mechanics a game in and of themselves. It's the difference between tossing a rubber ball and hoop and the game of basketball.

>>13829905

>X-like

Stop this shit.

>>13832791

Proof that God is real, and he hates us.

>>13832813

>Proof that God is real, and he hates us.

Well, wouldn't you if an offspring of your creation killed it's sibling over a trivial matter?

>>13832888

Why did you make them violent then?

>>13832908

Free will is a shitty thing, isn't it?

>>13832584

No one vetos your choices in an RPG. They react to them.

And there's a big difference to limiting you character creation choices and not giving you any input in your character at all. D&D for example won't let you play a space marine. Call of Cthulhu wont let you play a level 40 cyberdemon (not core rules anyway). But None of them say "here is your character, he's a poor country boy who only uses swords. His best friend is this girl who you will fall in love with. The big baddie attacks your village and you run away and hide until it's over. Then you creep back in and find your murdered mother. You feel sad. You then leave and enter the forest. (pause for momentary player interaction as a goblin attacks) Ok now we got through that ordeal of choices, let me tell you what your character does next…"

RPGs aren't about having complete unfettered freedom. As I said previously, they are about creating a character and exploring a world or situation with that character.

>>13829916

I think that was the point of the thread. Just because something has elements of one thing doesn't mean it is that thing. We use genres as broad strokes descriptions of certain ways games feel and play and how they are designed.

>>13833306

RPG mechanics don't make a RPG when the choice and consequence don't exist.

>>13830075

What game is that on the right?

>>13833306

Saying JRPGs are RPGs because they cover half the important bits is like saying a slice of bread is a grilled cheese sandwich because it has half the important ingredients. They're not the important bits, they're the necessary bits. If you don't have all of them you ain't an RPG.

I only make it sound like stats and dice rolls aren't important because you lack the reading comprehension or intellectual honesty to engage with either of the points I made in both posts you quoted. Picking out the times I insult you and responding to a single sentence with what essentially amounts to "nuh-uh" doesn't quite cut it.

I never said or implied RPGs don't need dice rolls or stats. They are the logic of the world you play in. Which is why I said something along the lines of:

"RPGs aren't about having complete unfettered freedom."

This is the kind of shit I expect from someone who thinks a good DM is someone who railroads an adventure to a predefined outcome or death and only allows the players minor choices about what items they use. RPGs without stats or dice are just people playing pretend. Without the random elements and limitations it's not a game. It loses the G and becomes RP. JRPGS, on the other hand are missing the R.

>>13833591

Out of curiosity, do Gothic and Risen count as RPGs?

>>13833539

Except they do? Making decisions isn't integral to playing a role. The thing that defines playing a role is that the abilities and knowledge of the role you're playing largely determine the outcome of what happens. If you're going by a literal definition of "role play", then being able to make story-affecting decisions is a bonus, not a necessity. The purest form of role play is acting out a completely scripted character.

>>13833590

Final Fantasy VII Speed Square minigame.

>>13830804

>>13830982

>>13831004

I was pretty sure the odd one out was Spelunky for being a platformer

>>13833762

>Which is the absolute opposite of what an RPG should be.

That's completely subjective and entirely dependent on if you think RPGs should strive to be as close to their PnP counterparts as possible.

>webm related

Did you miss where I said

>If you're going by a literal definition of "role play"

Tell me where the logic is flawed. Playing a role is about pretending to be someone else. Therefore, the purest form of roleplay is acting out a scripted character, because, once you introduce your own decision making, you're no longer entirely that character. You're mostly that character, but with a little bit of yourself injected into it. I'm not saying RPGs should strive to be entirely scripted out, but, if we're arguing what it means to be a role-playing game, just on the basis of how much role-playing is occurring, then being able to influence the story is a feature that's tangentially related to the act of role-playing, rather than a feature essential to it.

>>13833762

>I

fugg, my autism is showing

You*

Is a theater actor a roleplayer?

Is a film or tv actor?

Should film actors be allowed to change the script of their character, and if so, how much?

>>13831640

>getting so triggered over a game that you screencap your own rambling of it in a different browser and post it whenever so much as mentioned in passing

>>13831013

>rogue is not a roguelike

oh fuck

>>13834000

It's the best definition we've got, right here:

a Role-Playing Game can be described in entirely mechanical, objective terms.

"Role-Playing" is about what technical options the player is presented with; Final Fantasy allows you to select classes with different abilities for your party, FF2 has proficiencies. SOTN and it's type get in because you can select different weapons and abilities to suit the situation at hand, but Super Metroid is a stretch because its growth is far more mechanically linear and lacks options. The ability to control the characterization of your characters is a natural component of the table-top RPG, but it isn't necessarily a part of the definition of RPGs in general.

Going back to table top games, the "Game" part of Role-Playing Games is all the stat blocks and "number crunch"; It's what separates Kids running around on a playground making stuff up on the spot from a game of DnD.

>>13837906

The same Wizardry with some of the earliest examples of multiple endings or the one that practically invented the concept of a true ending?

>>13837961

And for posterity's sake, yes, this is a very broad description. Under it, the Battlefield games are RPGs. But that's the thing with trying to pigeon hole games into genres that hinge on singular traits; Battlefield 2142 is an RPG, just like how Contra is a third person shooter. Yeah, they technically fall under those definitions, but they're not the first term you would use to describe either.

Games are typically a collection of a bunch of different mechanics, while genres supposedly hinge on single mechanics; it's a situation with an infinite potential for semantic arguments. It's why so often people reach for "thing"-like, these days–as much as sounds obnoxious, when used correctly it provides a more nuanced description of a game than trying to classify it as one of the traditional genres, which we've established aren't well defined.