▶ No.956775>>956887 >>957170
>>956774 (OP)
It's like forking fucking i3 and calling it i4
LMAO
▶ No.956781>>956903 >>957263 >>957276 >>958761
Wayland is x12. This has been settled for half a decade now.
▶ No.956887
>>956775
You do realize there there were several xversions before x11 right?
>>956774 (OP)
All the good people with xorg left 10 years ago and started work on wayland
▶ No.956903>>956905 >>958438
>>956781
This, do people not understand that wayland was created by x11 devs?
x11 had issues and didn't follow the unix philosophy, the team spent years trying to sucklessify x11, after reducing the codebase by 50% they realised it was fundamentally flawed, hence wayland.
Wayland is not some meme that was added for no reason.
▶ No.956905
>>956903
UNIX don't follow the UNIX philosophy either.
▶ No.956906>>956908
>We're going to get wayland this year.
>2010 sometime
▶ No.956908>>956972 >>957263
>>956906
Wayland is literally the default on Fedora.
▶ No.956972>>957680
>>956908
>Wayland is the default on <NSAware>
Cool.
▶ No.957137>>957143 >>957239
>x11 had issues and didn't follow the unix philosophy, the team spent years trying to sucklessify x11, after reducing the codebase by 50% they realised it was fundamentally flawed, hence wayland.
Source?
I like X11 and I disagree that it doesn't follow KISS. X11 is quite modular, you can make it very very slim, but programs depending on extensions you don't have would obviously fail. It has been easy to keep up with new tech because of the architecture of X11. The main thing Wayland is trying to accomplish is to create a fresh architecture that does not have to support legacy applications. A nice project and one that could not be done under the name X11. It could also not have been accomplished without the major changes to Linux with DRM/KMS/GEM and the bulk of the drivers being moved to kernel space. Another important architectural change was in Mesas change to the Gallium architecture. It all started when people thought hey this DRI shit is to much copying let's make DRI2 and I'm glad we ended up where we are. There was alot of work done and now we can have things like Wayland and EGL, things have improved alot. Now if only Nvidia would take it up the ass and release the docs to their GPUS like AMD.
I'm guessing Wayland and X11 will co-exist for a long long long time and this X12.. it'll die quickly.
▶ No.957143>>957178 >>957239 >>958530
>>957137
>I'm guessing Wayland and X11 will co-exist for a long long long time
I hope not. I want a Waland only and vulkan only sytem ASAP.
X11, OpenGL, and all other antiquated cruft needs to go. They will serve no purpose other than acting as a source of bugs and security vulnerabilities.
▶ No.957164
>>956774 (OP)
>muh network transparency
Nobody has said this doesn't matter. The question is whether this should be done at the display server level or application level.
An application with MVC design where the view is local (wayland) and the model runs on a server is a lot more elegant than how X11 handles things.
More work for the application developer, yes, but developers have to start writing programs the proper way.
▶ No.957170
>>956775
originally:
>https://web.archive.org/web/20071123130628/https://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12/
earliest modern version:
>https://web.archive.org/web/20121122141621/https://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12/
diff:
> Length fields require constant conversion
> All requests and replies in X11 have a length field. This is cleverly encoded as number of 32-bit words, since all packets are padded to 32-bit alignment. This annoyingly results in tons
of << 2 and >> 2 conversions everywhere to get into useful byte counts for reading & writing across the sockets.
>2012
There won't be an X12... at least not under that name.
▶ No.957178
>>957143
What is stopping you?
▶ No.957197>>957239 >>957252
>What is Good about X11
>Network transparency. Network transparency rocks
no fuck off, it's bloat and i'll never need it since i'm not an enterprise nigger. it just makes all the API shittier
>957137
X is doodoo and everything that uses it has some retarded list of X extensions they depend on. meanwhile something like GTK doesn't even use X for any kind of rendering, it just uses muh fancy rendering libraries like cairo which probably uses opengl or some bullshit. the best X programs are the ones that actually use X, like stuff like xterm but they all have huge issues
▶ No.957239>>957254
Currently wayland has criticisms of being too hands off and tiny, which is perfect imo, SirCmpwm has been working with KDE to create libs for these "shortcomings", I want what >>957143 wants.
>>957137
>Source
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ
X11 wasn't always modular, it used to have crazy shit in it like print servers, your X is due to the hard work of people like Daniel who tried to make it better but came accross structural problems.
I agree that X11 and Wayland will co-exist for a long time, X11 has served us well for decades, I welcome a fresh start.
>>957197
X11 hasn't even been network transparent by default for years.
▶ No.957252
>>957197
>meanwhile something like GTK doesn't even use X for any kind of rendering
The great thing about X being such shit is that everything abstracted it away and now retargeting away from it is easy.
▶ No.957254>>957256
>>957239
>X11 hasn't even been network transparent by default for years.
and yet the functionality is there, and you have to go setup le magic cookies and shit or else your server allows anyone to connect and fuck with your desktop by default
▶ No.957256>>957520
>>957254
Which is silly to do, X11 is a terrible remote protocol, vnc is better.
▶ No.957263>>957516
>>956781
>red fedora wearing cia nigger
hmm.png
>>956908
feels good wayland is beyond usable at all.
seems like they couldn't make it to what systemd is trying to be already which is shipped on all popular distros.
also daily reminder that packages dependent to systemd are cia infested
>>956774 (OP)
as long as no glowers were allowed in the project which is unlikely. seriously I wish that sneaky fedora just fuck off already and forever
▶ No.957276
>>956781
>muh wayland
Nobody's even interested bub.
▶ No.957493>>957790 >>958440
what do you even need a GUI for, more terminal emulators and firefox forks?
FACT: GUIs will continue to be terrible until the UX education market is severely regulated and enhanced by elitism and actual attention to long-term friendliness of use, rather than backwards compatibility.
▶ No.957516>>957553 >>957790
>>957263
Well faggot this shit is all going to happen and the only thing you are going to do is complain. I'm sitting comfy on my wayland / systemd system and it works great. No more screen tearing, fast boost, etc. Don't worry anon soon you will be forced to deal with it.
▶ No.957520>>957525
>>957256
>pushing around bitmaps is a remote protocol
OnLive-tier. And like everybody says whenever this stupid "argument" comes up, X can just run atop Wayland if its networking capabilities are needed.
▶ No.957525
>>957520
pushing around bitmaps is what x does for modern GUI toolkits man
▶ No.957553>>957557 >>957790
>>957516
>you'll be forced to use Wayland and system d
I seriously doubt it, also Wayland has massive screen tearing problems on nvidia.
▶ No.957557>>957936
>>957553
Using nouveau drivers or the proprietary ones?
The proprietary ones only work through X11, meaning you are stuck using xwayland.
Also, you shouldn't be running any proprietary drivers. Especially not with a monolithic kernel.
▶ No.957680
>>956972
oh look its a faggot
▶ No.957790>>957932 >>957950 >>958595
>>957493
lol TUIs are just as shit as the pre-(((UX))) GUIs
>>957516
jokes on you linux was already shit enough to move away from before it got the D
>muh screen tearing
>trade it for 16.66ms of input latency XDDDDD
<meanwhile, using an LCD with 16.66ms of image smearing on top of slow pixels and more input lag
my shit uses beam racing vsync nigger which is the only real way, which wayland does not support.
>fast boot
literally trivial to implement. could not be more literal. does not even require 1/10000th the amount of code systemd has
>>957553
any fucked up drivers will bring back screen tearing. for example running wayland on linux framebuffer there will be no vsync signal (there actually is API but no framebuffer driver implements it)
also reminder that even on X11 you wont get screen tearing in a properly configured video player, it's just an issue with windows and shit
▶ No.957932
>>957790
I've never had tearing issues in X, maybe because I'm not retarded?
▶ No.957936
>>957557
>you shouldn't be running any proprietary drivers
Why?
▶ No.957950>>959781
>>957790
>screens have a 16 ms latency so we should add another 30 on top
retard
▶ No.958438>>958464 >>958485
>>956903
> wayland was created by x11 devs?
Are these the same devs who created all the problems with X11 in the first place?
▶ No.958440
>>957493
>what do you even need a GUI for
lmfao
▶ No.958464>>958476 >>958545 >>959024
>>958438
Pretty much. In the early 90's and prior, X was pretty simple and lean. I could even run a minimal version of it called TinyX on my 4 meg 486.
Then they added all kinds of complicated interfaces and extensions (and massive amounts of bugs), so it became the turd you have today.
http://ftp.halifax.rwth-aachen.de/ccc/30C3/mp4-lq/30c3-5499-en-X_Security_h264-iprod.mp4
▶ No.958476>>958525
>>958464
Lol no they are the devs that stripped out all the bloated shit from X over 10 years before giving up and saying fuck it.
▶ No.958485
>>958438
No they did not create the problems in X11, they inherited these problems from the original architects of X11. The X11 protocol was designed for a different time and was never intended to be used the way it was actually used in 2010 and 2018.
▶ No.958525>>958545 >>958690
>>958476
The security researcher in that video doesn't agree with you. He makes a clear distinction between the old design of X that was relatively clean and simple, and the new clusterfuck full of nasty bugs that those developers left us with.
▶ No.958527
▶ No.958530
>>957143
You are fucking retarded, do you have any idea how much more work it is to use vulkan over opengl? No, because you are a larping wind bag. That's like saying you want a system purely written in asm, it's retarded. Vulkan is worth the effort for high performance shit to get the most out of your expensive graphics card, not to improve your tiling wm performance on your ancient shit box.
▶ No.958545>>958689
>>958464
>>958525
No. The problem with X is that it was designed at a completely different time to tackle totally different problems. It is not suited to be used now as it is used.
The developers tried to mitigate this by writing extensions, which would add new modern features (which is a thing that has been going on since the late nineties) but writing code on top of old, deprecated code is never a good idea. If anyone here used GNU in the mid-2000s they may remember that X would sometimes shit itself and stop working. A lot of DEs began to include a keyboard shortcut to restart X by default.
The team tried to remove and simplify the code, but X is simply not suited for modern needs.
▶ No.958562>>958619
>discussing successors to x11
>nobody mentions 8½
>nobody mentions rio
peak /g/
▶ No.958595
>>957790
>beam racing vsync
Thanks for dropping that nugget of gold.
▶ No.958619>>958699 >>958724
>>958562
>windowing systems in a thread about display servers
Why don't we talk about drivers, too?
▶ No.958689>>958763
>>958545
There was already a project in the mid 90's (GGI) to modernize the Unix graphics. Those developers decided instead to pile all their nasty turds on top of X instead.
▶ No.958690>>958766
>>958525
>The design from the 80s was simple so the people that were stripping out shit for 10 years are the ones that made it bloated
▶ No.958699>>958708 >>958746
>>958619
My mistake. This post, right here. This is peak /g/.
▶ No.958708
>>958699
If this was /g/ we would be talking about the latest hot phones.
▶ No.958724>>958746
>>958619
>wayland is a server
▶ No.958746>>958757
>>958699
Yes. Wait, you mean your post right?
>>958724
A display server protocol.
▶ No.958757
>>958746
no nigger wayland is a library and it's implemented by third-party compositors, there's no server about it
▶ No.958761
>>956781
Wayland isn't a networking protocol so it cannot be X12.
▶ No.958763
>>958689
In 1998, there was a big flame war on the linux kernel mailing list about getting KGI into the kernel. Linus Torvalds explained his concerns about GGI stating, "I think that X is good enough" and expressing concern regarding the overall direction of GGI.
▶ No.958766>>958805 >>958808 >>959024
>>958690
The old X was lean enough to run fine on my 4-meg 33 MHz 486 in 1995. You can't do that with X now, because they turned it into a bloated piece of shit, just like web browsers and other stuff that used to work fine became bloated garbage full of bugs. That's what "modern" means. It's code word for "we're stupid niggers who like to fuck shit up". Hell they couldn't even stop at the software, they fucked up the CPUs too. Fucking niggers.
▶ No.958805
>>958766
Different people faggot.
▶ No.958808
>>958766
You can still get and install those old X versions if you love them so much. Why don't you?
▶ No.959024>>959028
>>958464
>>958766
X has always sucked.
Here is clear evidence that X is the Unix of window
"systems." From the manual page for xset (a Unix program
for controlling X server options):
OPTIONS
...
bc The bc option controls bug compatibility mode
in the server, if possible; a preceding
dash(-) disables the mode, otherwise the mode
is enabled. Various pre-R4 clients pass
illegal values in some protocol requests, and
pre-R4 servers did not correctly generate
errors in these cases. Such clients, when run
against an R4 server, will terminate
abnormally or otherwise fail to operate
correctly. Bug compatibility mode explicitly
reintroduces certain bugs into the X server,
so that many such clients can still be run.
This mode should be used with care; new
application development should be done with
this mode disabled. The server must support
the MIT- SUNDRY-NONSTANDARD protocol extension
in order for this option to work.
"Such clients... terminate abnormally or otherwise fail to
operate correctly" is an understatement. In fact, in
earlier versions of one X server, it was possible to crash
the X server (and all its clients) simply by setting the
bell volume to zero -- using xset itself!
▶ No.959026>>959029
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/wiki/xorg/log/Development/X12.mdwn
It's a page that hasn't had anything except a typo fix since 2013. It's dead, Jim. Efforts have already shifted entirely to Wayland.
▶ No.959028
>>959024
>What is the next step in you masterplan?
>Crashing this X-server
>WITH NO SURVIVORS
▶ No.959029
▶ No.959781
>>957950
The reason you misinterpreted my post this badly is because you have no idea what you're talking about. For some reason it's really popular on the internet to have about 30 different misconceptions about how screens work.