▶ No.846741
Poettering is a god among men.
▶ No.846746>>846918
>>846740 (OP)
It's just an init system guys, no big deal.
▶ No.846750>>846990 >>848193 >>850065
https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/998562-systemd-breached-one-million-lines-of-code-in-2017
>All in all, if all systemd components work well, it will be a huge step forward for all of us. Before systemd, other operating systems had much more robust service management than Linux. It was honestly embarrassing! To be honest, even with systemd in its current state, Windows is so much more ahead and more robust, since it has a mature init system since the days Windows NT 4. You read that right: we still have a ways to go to catch up with the year 2000 in Windows.
<it's not big enough
▶ No.846751>>846898 >>847654
>Lennart Poettering was responsible for nearly a third of the work on systemd in 2017 followed by Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek, Yu Watanabe, Susant Sahani, Alan Jenkins and Evgeny Vereshchagin.
mfw it's all slavs and jap's that write bloat code
inb4 they're all NSA/Redhat employees, so it doesn't matter
▶ No.846754>>846763
If anything this news is a bad thing. Projects should not be striving to have as many lines as possible, but rather seek to get the best bang for their buck for lines added. Adding extra lines introduces extra maintainability issues and leave more potential for bugs to be introduced.
▶ No.846763>>848061
>>846754
I think the LOC reaching a million is incidental, not a goal for them.
▶ No.846777
>>846740 (OP)
If that's important, then why uselessd is a dead project? Probably because systemd is still modular.
▶ No.846791>>846805 >>846814 >>847072
/sbin/init (the actual PID 1) is still just 1.7 MB. That's 40% smaller than /usr/bin/unar, somehow.
▶ No.846805>>846812
>>846791
1.7MB + a gigabyte of shared libraries.
▶ No.846812>>849603
>>846805
2.3 MB, assuming it's libsystemd-shared-[version].so, but fair enough.
▶ No.846814>>846918
>>846791
That's 50 times bigger than my /sbin/init
I use sysvinit
▶ No.846862
Feels like I'm watching the special olympics tbh.
▶ No.846891>>846911
Somehow OpenRC was easier to manage ( for me ofc ) than the systemd. And gentoo dnscrypt default was worked out-of-box while arch didn't. I also couldn't properly debug that shit from journals on systemd. It was basically voodoo programming.
▶ No.846898
>>846751
>inb4 they're all NSA/Redhat employees, so it doesn't matter
Pics related.
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek should be a big enough red flag to any pro-systemd faggot still on this board.
>Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden, director of the National Security Agency, will make a rare public appearance on Tuesday, Nov. 12, at George Mason as part of an “open conversation” with Frank Sesno of the School of Public Policy. The university community is invited to attend the event held in the Johnson Center Dewberry Hall at 6:30 p.m.
He probably got recruited during year 3, possibly 4, during a research project.
▶ No.846911
>>846891
Everyone who's not a nigger on this board and has to run an OpenVPN client on his SystemD box will understand what a pain it is to avoid DNS queries leaking to Google and your ISP. On runit/OpenRC it just fucking werks.
▶ No.846918>>846921
>>846746
>A million lines
>For an init system
Now that's what i call bloat.
>>846814
Feels good to be part of the sysvinit masterrace
▶ No.846920
>still using systemd
Come one guys.
▶ No.846921
>>846918
$du -sh /sbin/runit
644K /sbin/runit
ayy lmao
▶ No.846927
The "software crisis" is alive and well.
This is what Dijkstra said about it.
>The major cause of the software crisis is that the machines have become several orders of magnitude more powerful! To put it quite bluntly: as long as there were no machines, programming was no problem at all; when we had a few weak computers, programming became a mild problem, and now we have gigantic computers, programming has become an equally gigantic problem.
▶ No.846936>>846942 >>846943 >>846958
Lines of code by OS, including userland
OpenBSD: 3,500,000
TempleOS: 100,000
Urbit: 30,000
Yet you now need a million lines of code to boot a 16 million line kernel.
Linux will become inscrutable to all in time.
▶ No.846942
>>846936
While Linux is bloated as fuck, please don't misguide others with the 16M figure. Unless you do make allyesconfig or allmodconfig with all modules loaded, you'll only use a minuscule fraction of these 16M.
▶ No.846943>>847100
>>846936
>Linux will become inscrutable to all in time.
This is a decade old meme, though it's became true for some MS product what came up with this first, in one of their their research.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXcFA_JvBOg
Also UEFI is more "bloated" while still almost nobody mention that as a problem.
▶ No.846951>>846979 >>847257 >>848082
I used debian for a couple months, and had to go back to slack.
what happened to the days of sysvinit, gnome 2, firefox 3?
why is software getting worse?
I swear debian with pulse would leave my system idling at 60, now its at 40.
I don't really like compiling my own packages, but its the only sane option left (and gnu autotools, qmake, cmake, are all shit).
linux was like Alexandria but its turning into mecca.
▶ No.846957>>847516
>>846740 (OP)
Why not just condense it to one really long line
▶ No.846958>>846964
>>846936
The init system doesn't start the kernel, and most of the million lines are outside the init system.
▶ No.846963
>>846740 (OP)
It's exactly like the critics said, a stealth take over of Linux. This is why you can't believe what anyone says.
▶ No.846964
▶ No.846979>>847024
>>846951
>what happened to the days of sysvinit, gnome 2, firefox 3?
literally nothing. just download those pieces of software and compile them. boom all the sudden its a decade earlier again
▶ No.846990>>846994 >>848193
>>846750
but the guy on the screenshot says actually reasonable things
▶ No.846994>>847974
>>846990
Reasonable things are no match for a four-word rquote summary
▶ No.847011
>>846740 (OP)
>Systemd Just Broke a Million Lines
It broke much more than just that.
▶ No.847024
>>846979
Gentoo is beautiful for this reason.
▶ No.847072>>847086 >>847185 >>847394 >>847455 >>848017
>>846791
>just 1.7 MB
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 40K Feb 12 2017 /sbin/init
Whatever.
I'm just glad it's so fucking easy to remove it from Debian Stretch nowadays.
I thought less lines of code was better. Are they actively aiming for bloat or what?
▶ No.847086>>847768
>>847072
>debian stretch
>not devuan.org
Why?
▶ No.847100>>847808
>>846943
Even Linus has voiced fears about Linux bloat and maintainability (at some time he said that he is terrified that one day there will be a regression and nobody will be able to fix it because of the byzantine nature of the source)
▶ No.847185>>847324 >>847480
>>847072
>40k
What do you need this for?
> du -sh /sbin/openrc-init
20K /sbin/openrc-init
▶ No.847219
>>846740 (OP)
>>846740 (OP)
minix :) it works well even on your motherboard in the background as a nice little backdoor (intel me)
▶ No.847257>>847453
>>846951
alpine linux, minix 3, void linux, vector linux, linux from scratch, ,2013 knppix maybe?
▶ No.847324
>>847185
Whoa! Be careful throwing du around, that's expensive nowadays.
▶ No.847394
>>847072
>I thought less lines of code was better.
More lines are better when you glow in the dark.
▶ No.847448>>847581
>>846740 (OP)
Read that as "Systemd Just Broke a Million Times". Didn't strike me as odd.
▶ No.847453>>847482 >>847663
>>847257
Alpine is only viable for small embedded systems because most software (more classically graphical software) is a nightmare to get working on alpine. In particular, a lot of packages assume a bash-like shell which is not the case in alpine. There are several other issues related to that.
Minix is decades away from being viable.
Vector is just another name for slack.
LFS is not a distro.
2013 was 5 years ago.
Void qualifies.
So does gentoo.
GuixSD would also qualify but it's a broken piece of shit.
▶ No.847455>>847768
>>847072
>I thought less lines of code was better. Are they actively aiming for bloat or what?
That rule only applies to proprietary software like Windows since Microsoft doesn't need to care about making their code portable or necessarily readable to anybody but their employees
In the free software world, all code has to be human-readable to an extent, and portable, so free software tends to have many more LoC vs proprietary software. Its partially why IBM and Microsoft had their differences in the 90s
▶ No.847480>>847600
>>847185
Nice bloat faggot
$ du -sh /sbin/openrc-init
12K /sbin/openrc-init
▶ No.847482>>847485
>>847453
>In particular, a lot of packages assume a bash-like shell which is not the case in alpine
That's odd. Shouldn't Debian (and Ubuntu?) have the same problem? They use dash as /bin/sh. Alpine does package bash, just outside the base system, right?
▶ No.847485
>>847482
All the system utils needed to boot a system only need a POSIX compatible shell. But certain user programs like awk expect a bash enviroment and all its quirks.
▶ No.847516>>847865
▶ No.847581
>>847448
I read it as "Broke a million lines" with the interpretation that one of their changes broke a lot of software.
▶ No.847600>>847627 >>847770
>>847480
Look who's talking.
$ du -sh /sbin/init
0 /sbin/init
▶ No.847627
>>847600
You retard, that's a symbolic link in the place of the init system.
▶ No.847663>>847758
>>847453
install Slackware
▶ No.847758
>>847663
It's trash tbh fam. The normal paradigm of a slackware user is that they install the entire install image's worth of packages because dep resolution is not slack-like enough.
▶ No.847761
All that was needed is a microkernel, or even exokernel like in Minix3 that is used in your intelme trojan botnet integrated in your pc and enabled by default.
▶ No.847768
>>847086
Because I found out it is easy to remove systemd from it so I didn't need to use a fork if my only reason for doing so would be getting rid of systemd.
What are other benefits of devuan over debian?
>>847455
Oh. Hi, Rustfag. I can tell you apart now.
▶ No.847770
>>847600
You're like a baby.
$ du -sh /sbin/init
-1000G /sbin/init
▶ No.847797>>847799
Anyone tried bedrock linux? Could solve quite a few issues if it works well: get init from any distro you like and software from anywhere else; get an unpatched kernel with heavily patched packages; compile shit from gentoo when you can, get binary packages when you can't; install from a different distro when a package breaks, etc.
This means you can have arch userland packages with debian kernel, drivers and X, and gentoo's openrc. It also means you can use nix or guixsd's reproducible config for everything that works and use something that isn't broken for the parts that aren't broken.
▶ No.847799
>>847797
stali,
suckless linux
▶ No.847804
▶ No.847808>>847863
>>847100
>and nobody will be able to fix it because of the byzantine nature of the source
Typical for large C projects tbh.
▶ No.847817
What's wrong with you bad goys? systemd is a wonderful improvement and brings many many good things to you're linux experience.
https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd
▶ No.847850
▶ No.847863>>847874
>>847808
Right? They should definitely rewrite them in Rust!!
I'm a fellow rustacean, btw :^)
▶ No.847865>>847875
>>847516
Posts aren't rated here.
▶ No.847870>>847894
▶ No.847874
>>847863
Away with you, faglord.
▶ No.847875
▶ No.847894
▶ No.847899>>847903
News
(Oct 27, 2004) TCCBOOT is slashdotted.
Introduction
TCCBOOT is a boot loader able to compile and boot a Linux kernel directly from its source code.
TCCBOOT is only 138 KB big (uncompressed code) and it can compile and run a typical Linux kernel in less than 15 seconds on a 2.4 GHz Pentium 4.
https://bellard.org/tcc/tccboot.html
▶ No.847903>>847905
>>847899
Do you know what systemd does
▶ No.847905>>847912
>>847903
Nobody knows for sure
▶ No.847912
>>847905
I think it doesn't compile the kernel yet, although TempleOS has something like that
▶ No.847961
Systemd is this big because they are trying to make Linux do something it was not meant to do. If the kernel wasn't crap, they wouldn't need systemd or anything like it. There would be more functionality with millions less lines of code.
▶ No.847965
the "1 million" includes documentation, there isn't actually that much C code in the repo.
▶ No.847974>>848255
>>846994
>Reasonable things are no match for a four-word rquote summary
Can you explain please?
▶ No.847982>>847984 >>847989 >>848178
Let's get it clear, we need a microkernel-based OS with declarative package management and easy-understandable init system that does one thing. I'll come up with a name.
▶ No.847984
>>847982
like that is already running on your pc in the background with remote access features? (minix3)
▶ No.847989>>848008
>>847982
That's literally GuixSD with HURD.
▶ No.848008>>848087
>>847989
guixsd has a huge chunk of systemd copied into it.
also it isn't usable.
▶ No.848017
>>847072
I think they're aiming for 6 gorillion lines of code.
▶ No.848056
Openrc ~15k loc vs systemd ~400k loc. We could collect the loc counts for consolekit and others that got replaced by systemd. I'm sure we will end up with significantly less loc than systemd's mountain of bloat.
▶ No.848061>>848064
>>846763
Making the thing too big and complicated for a full audit is the actual goal.
That and subsuming more and more of Linux until there's nothing left of it, at which point RedHat will dual license Systemd under the GPL and probably a Solaris/Plan9(old)-type license. Cap this.
▶ No.848064>>848070
>>848061
And they won't be updating the GPL version ever again after said event
▶ No.848070
>>848064
First they came for the init system, then all of bootup (muh fast reboots) and eventually they will release an emacs clone or something along those lines too.
Welp time to switch to OpenBSD.
▶ No.848082
>>846951
> why is software getting worse?
It's "progress". They can't leave something well enough alone. Everything has to balloon-up to consume all the resources of developer's latest & greatest hardware rig.
▶ No.848087>>848092
>>848008
What are you on about? They are specifically anti systemd, they use their own init system written in guile called shepherd.
▶ No.848092>>848096 >>849613 >>850292
>>848087
>They are specifically anti systemd
no...
https://github.com/wingo/elogind
<"We like systemd. We realize that there are people out there that hate it. You're welcome to use elogind for whatever purpose you like -- as-is, or as a jumping-off point for other things -- but please don't use it as part of some anti-systemd vendetta. Systemd hackers are smart folks that are trying to solve interesting problems on the free desktop, and their large adoption is largely because they solve
problems that users and developers of user-focused applications care about. We are appreciative of their logind effort and think that everyone deserves to run it if they like, even if they use a different PID 1.
▶ No.848096>>848098
>>848092
That's logind and back when shepherd was called DMD, no updates for 3 years.
Are you sure this is still used?
▶ No.848098>>848101
>>848096
Yea it is still used by things like dbus and consolekit.
▶ No.848101
>>848098
Well shit, I was wrong.
Time to shame OpenBSD into being a microkernel and putting coolpkg into base.
▶ No.848178
>>847982
I got the logo tbh
▶ No.848193>>848702 >>849238
>>846750
>>846990
why do we need binary log again?
Why are we ignoring alternative standard c libraries?
Why do I need python to report its status to init system?
▶ No.848255
>>847974
You can make anything sound dumb by explaining it badly.
▶ No.848702
>>848193
What don't you like (((progress))) goy?
▶ No.848757
OPENRC MASTER RACE
$ du -sh /sbin/openrc
44.0K /sbin/openrc
▶ No.848777
>>846740 (OP)
artix linux is my new love
▶ No.848787
▶ No.849228>>849238
at what point does systemd fork and just become it's own operating system?
▶ No.849238>>849246
>>849228
when linux stops being an insecure joke. oh wait, that's why systemd has so many modules to work around it.
>>848193
because binary logging is easy to filter and sift through. there is literally nothing stopping you from using syslog transports, but then again the people bitching about journald are the same retards who don't know shit about log management outside of maybe logrotate.
alternatives to what? most everything systemd does is pretty much world class in linux and generally has a much better ui and ux.
you don't need python, but it's helpful because using signals or checking if everyone is dead or not in a cgroup slice is a shitty ass way to tell the init what's going on, especially with complex forking daemons.
▶ No.849246>>849248
>>849238
>when linux stops being an insecure joke
What do you mean by this?
▶ No.849248>>849250
>>849246
linux doesn't have a capability-based security system so it's hard to have a daemonized service like systemd not fall into potential confused deputy problems.
i believe systemd devs made some daemon to mock something up on top of linux. hillariously enough it wasn't added to the systemd git repo because of autismos bitching about a multi bazillion, "bloat" bullshit.
▶ No.849250>>849254
>>849248
I'm loosely familiar with the capability security system when the GNU Hurd team were evaluating it a few years ago. Do you know much about other kernels with capabilities? Can you tell me about the L4 kernel capabilities.
▶ No.849254>>849255
>>849250
I only understand it theoretically. I pretty much only deal with linux.
I think freebsd has capsicum for capabilities.
I'd talk more but it's almost 2am here.
▶ No.849255
>>849254
Night night sweet puppers
▶ No.849603
>>846812
Let's talk dependencies then...
▶ No.849613>>849874
>>848092
>attempting to avoid a costly and useless (flame) war with Lennartbots, while avoiding systemd is succumbing to systemd
▶ No.849874
>>849613
logind is systemd though
▶ No.850065
>>846750
Runit and Dracut work just fine for me. Not sure I understand where this tool is coming from.
▶ No.850292
>>848092
That makes me WANT to use it on some anti-systemd vendetta.
▶ No.850293>>851272
Why don't we make our own init system?
inb4 i'll make the logo
Obviously we would write it in Rust. No unsafe blocks allowed.
▶ No.851272
>>850293
I would unironically use it as long as it's stable and has sane defaults, like mounting the EFI variables as read only by default and making you edit the parameters in the bootloader to mount them with write access.
I wanna make the logo.