/tech/ - Technology★

>>798075 (OP)

>"Open source"

It's gonna be as "Open source" as fucking android

>>798075 (OP)

>Once Google finally pushes this kernel to Android the usage share of Linux is going to drop like a brick in a matter of less than a decade. Not even hyperbole, the world saw what Android did to raise Linux's market share in less than a decade, it's not inconceivable it can go both ways.

>not even hyperbole

I don't know bro, I can't even get a straight answer from some of you fags on whether or not Android counts as Linux sometimes. Fuschia looks to be mobile OS from what little I read about it. Since I primarily use linux on desktop, the only possible overlap for me is if it gets to be on chromebook or something.

>open source OS by Google

Doubting gondola.gif

Linux is shit. Why would you want to raise the market share of inferior technology? I would rather have Fuchsia on the desktop and server. It's the year of the microkernel desktop.

>>798080

Linuxfags don't consider Androids kernel to be "real Linux" until it is convenient for them like for kernel market share dick waving

>>798081

>linux is shit

You say that, and its not actually wrong, yet I know goddamn well whatever you'd cite as better is even worse, just like this will almost certainly be.

Awesome, now Google can embed the NSA spyware directly into the kernel and they don't have to dance around Linux. :^)

>>798088

It's not GNU/Linux, and it was convenient for Google to use. I have no doubt Fuchsia will be the same security nightmare Android is today.

>>798107

Preety much this.

>>798115

Problem is that a lot of the development resources Google helped bring in to Linux will disappear. Like how the space program had a lot of tangential benefits to the private sector. After Google disappears the only people who will be running Linux in any kind of professional way will be server side. Unless Valve goes full bore into it.

This won't be a succeded system if people with brains know what google does with our privacy.

>>798123

What other alternative do people have? iOS? They're just as bad.

>>798075 (OP)

You know how many projects Google had and even has now that are just experiments? This could be a very specific thing, like for IoT devices. Fuchsia is even a real time, which is pointless for mobile

>microkernel RTOS

>performance & battery life

Pick one.

Linux used by Android is ancient and most vendors don't even contribute back. Android doesn't have any impact on Linux kernel development used for server or desktops. Even if Google replaced Linux with Fuchsia, it wouldn't make any real life difference. Other than delusional Linux marketshare statistics.

>>798075 (OP)

What other anons already said here, linux usage is not that important, Gnu/linux adoption is what's relevant.

>>798135

Forgot to mention Fuchsia is a replacement for Android, not Linux. Read Magenta in that context.

>Linux' marketshare

It's still the most used and most versatile kernel there is.

>inb4 'Linux is an OS XDDD'

No, it's not. GNU has been gaining marketshare, and it has nothing to do with Android or ChromeOS.

>>798123

> if people with brains know what google does with our privacy.

we're fucking doomed

>>798140

GNU has only been gaining marketshare because desktop developers try and hide it as much as possible. GNU utilities are bloated crap that are only used because they are free.

so people who use smartphones won't be using linux now. So back where we started. what's the big deal?

Good.

Microkernels are nice in theory. The reality is usually slow shit.

>this entire thread

A microkernel based RTOS actually makes a lot of sense for something like Androids shitty ecosystem. Because it means you can always be up-to-date without having to wait for OEMs to port over an entire monolithic kernel and framework. A microkernel RTOS core means OEMs don't have to do shit past porting over the kernel itself, you can use a stock framework on top of it without any porting in theory.

>>798155

Microkernel yes. RTOS no.

And they are already solving this problem with Treble.

Microkernel is unnecessary. The Android update mechanism problem is because of the pure idiocy.

>>798157

>The Android update mechanism problem is because of the pure idiocy.

The update problem is because of a lack of platform standards. Remember, in the early days of the IBM PC there did exist Intel/8086 based computers that lacked compatibility with eachother. The IBM PC standard is more than just architecture, it's also platform and firmware interfaces that are interoperal. ARM lacks an equivalent standard outside of a few boards that use u-boot. Most Android devices lack interoperability at firmware-level. I think a microkernel would in theory fix this problem because the OEM would only need to port the microkernel itself while the microkernel is then interoperable with standard modules that sit on top

I think an RTOS is justified because it means the kernel at basic level has immediate global hardware access which would expose useful APIs to build more complex OS' on top of

>>798170

RTOS allows the apps to be responsive and get a 120 Hz frame rate.

Remember all the complaints about how laggy and unresponsive android apps were in the early days?

Now imagine apps that respond 1000x quicker than they currently do an android, and with silky smooth 120 fps.

>>798172

Java isn't the only language for developing Android apps retard. Android has had a C library for years now called Bionic. Apps aren't even ran in a VM anymore, they're compiled to native code at install-time with Android Runtime

How the fuck did you think a lot of program ports worked for Android? You think Rockstar had to re-write Grand Theft Auto San Andreas in fucking Java? Do you actually have brain problems?

>>798173

That has more to do with Googles new graphical frameworks that make more use of Vulkan. Although Android currently already supports Vulkan so I fail to see what difference a new framework makes

>>798176

Is it available for desktop apps? I would really much prefer Flutter applications over electron ones.

>>798174

Did you write any apps in C for Android? It is ridiculously more annoying than using Java.

Not sure how Dart is any better than Java tho.

>>798173

That's why all the mainstream operating systems today are RTOS, right? Fuchsia is experimental toy and probably nothing will come out of it.

>>798180

I don't appreciate your sarcasm.

>>798182

I am sorry. I'm tired.

>>798174

this can't be the future because the future is the browser. the real future of android is an os that exists for the explicit purpose of running the browser.

all apps will be webext

>>798189

The only reason why I actually can't see this happening is that ISPs still give you data limits so saving shit offline at home to save data on the go has become something they'll tell you to do.

>>798135

>Fuchsia is even a real time, which is pointless for mobile

realtime is not pointless and especially on mobile

because you don't want an audio player to glitch even if the system is under heavy load from other background tasks at the moment.

>>798245

>audio player to glitch even if the system is under heavy load from other background tasks at the moment

This is simply solved with thread priority and throttling background processes.

Unless you absolutely need RTOS, it does more harm than good since it increases complexity and more resource intensive.

Good, it'll be a great chance for a decent kernel like Illumos to come up and finally beat Linus "BUG/OOPS should not ever crash the kernel" Torvalds' little turd.

>>798319

What kind of virtue signaling is this?

>>798245

Android have a seperate rtos (or firmware for things that REALLY need realtime things. As i know it's related to voice calling, but an android expert can fix/add other features to it.

>>798100 (checked)

This. The Jewgle jew will jew you before you can say 'Jewgle jew'.

>ubuntuniggers will go back

what a shame.

>>798100

Replicant OS supporter checking in!

>>798319

The HURD will support AMD64 this year, senpai!

>crosses fingers

>>798464

And it will have the Guix package manager as well!

>>798075 (OP)

>the usage share of Linux is going to drop like a brick in a matter of less than a decade

If it gets exploitative scum like ARM and Qualcomm out of the Linux ecosystem I'm all for it

>>798124

YEAR OF UBUNTU FOR PHONES

>>798088

"My fellow Linux kernels"

"Happy Googlanukkah to my fellow Androids"

>fucks ya

>>798189

>the real future of android is an os that exists for the explicit purpose of running the browser.

There needs not to be an OS. How about Chromedroid?

>>798075 (OP)

>Google Fuchsia

>Google FucksYa

NOT FAR OFF THE MARK TBH

> market share

What will Linux do without all the $0 it was getting from Android increasing their marketshare to people who don't even know they're using it?

>FUCK-ZEE-A

>FUK-SEE-AH

Worst name ever either way.

>>799475

They're barely even using it. While android does use the Linux kernel, it does not use the GPL-licensed GNU OS on top of it. Instead, it uses its own cuck-licensed tools. Additionally, the system was made to be used with proprietary software, such as the Google services and apps, which track users, and Google will not release them as free software. This is why the Purism Librem 5 is such an important thing, as it will be a phone running on free software.

>>799517

>>799400

>>799363

It's pronounced fyooshah. It's a purple-red color, but I wouldn't expect pajeets to know that.

>>799644

But as long as my program only makes calls to the Linux Kernel SCI, and doesn't use libraries like glibc, it should run in the Android and GNU userspaces, no?

>>798119

>2014

>Microsoft popularity at historic low

>Win8 actually makes Vista look usable

>Valve ready to release SteamMachines, with Linux based SteamOS

>Gaben cucks because he doesn't like the controller yet

>Waits a whole fucking year, just to redesign the controller

>Meanwhile, Steve Ballmer is ousted from Microsoft

>Microsoft releases a new Windows OS that's at least usable

>Normies no longer enraged about Windows: iPhone edition

>missedopportunity.tiff

Sometimes autism isn't a good thing.

>>799644

>While android does use the Linux kernel, it does not use the GPL-licensed GNU OS on top of it.

Why? As in, why isn't there an alternative yet?

>more opportunities for google to overestimate and embarrass itself

I think it's great

>>799651

>"fyooshah"

fucking idiot no it's not it's pronounced "FucksYa" learn your colors you dumb nigger.

>>799718

/ˈfjuːʃə/

kys retard

>>799721

NO, it's /ˈfʌks:jə/

learn english and fuck you and your extra chromosome

>>799756

its porninced fuck you!1

>>799682

Back in 2007 Smartphones were too shit to run GNU/Bloat, so it was decided to make a new lightweight userland based on lightweight components

As a result, Android uses Busybox, including the Busybox init. and instead of glibc it uses the Bionic C Library, and instead of Bash it uses Ash or The MirBSD Korn Shell depending on the version. And instead of X11 it uses SurfaceFlinger

>>802263

Google did that to get around the GPL so that they can make a proprietary userland to spy on people and leech off of free software.

>>802467

Why didn't Google just go with a BSD Kernel to begin with? It's not like Sony wasn't already using BSD in the PS3 and PSP for the same reason back in 2007

>>799667

>Steam controller comes out

>it's garbage

so much for that

>>802763

You know the reason phones look the same now?

Nobody bought the stupid-looking shit.

>>798100

Are there any other search engines that work well with images though? Startpage is my go-to, but I tried Searx and it looks for shit that is nowhere near what I asked.

>>802766

>3210

>stupid-looking

Opinion discarded.

>>802766

>>802784

This. Phones look significantly better now than the ugly, fat, dated Fisher-Price designs of yesteryear. A simple, elegant touch-screen is all you need and it works. Too bad being contrarian is easier than critical thought though

>>802763

>Sony is irrelevant in this case as the consoles are blackboxes and normally the system don't exposed to the users.

Wrong. Early PS3s actually came with a feature called "Other OS" that supported installing Linux and using your PS3 like a PowerPC computet. Sony disabled the feature because it originally only existed to dodge some European Import tax on game consoles but the point still remains. The PS3 was very much an open-ended entertainment system in the beginning.

>>802807

How is this relevant to bsd?

Curse this thread! I can't stop reading it as "Google Fucks Ya".

>>802865

/ˈfʌks:jə/

>>798245

Soft RT (aka music and video playing) is solved on most computers. It's not a challenge, and in case of failure (too long delay) it's not deadly. With most modern computers the computing under the hoof is quite overkill for most of the tasks, so that it can run them without jitering.

Hard RT is a real challenge, you got to have an answer in less than a defined time. Usually MC's are being used for that cause anything bigger with an operating system on it is unable to full fill that, or has long development times.

If google manages actually to produce a Hart RT kernel that runs on any or most modern ARM's then it will be really interesting, especially if it's easier to use than alternatives. Imagine smuggling a field-bus out of your smartphone to external hardware and having a Hard RT controller with the power of a laptop, BT, Wifi, GSM, cam, touchscreen... directly connected to the rest of the system, at very low costs.

However i worry that the layer to the hardware and the user interface will contain proprietary blobs like android has today. And "RTOS" is interpreted in many ways.

>Once Google finally pushes this kernel to Android the usage share of Linux is going to drop like a brick in a matter of less than a decade

Who cares about the usage share of a kernel? Not that it would matter much since it's still the most used kernel in servers and embedded systems.

>le Linux is a OS XDDDDDD le Stallman ebin pasta XDDDDD

Fuck you. Linux is not an OS, it's a kernel.

>>802784

>no buttons

>Phones are better now giaz

trashman.jpg

>>804495

the only physical buttons a smartphone needs are on/off and volume up/down. prove me wrong

>google fuchia

>google fucks ya

really make you think

>>804502

>he has to repeat his joke

/ˈfʌks:jə/

>>804495

For a device that's geared almost exclusively towards content consumption and not content creates, a lack of physical buttons in favor of just one, big elegant touch-screen makes the most sense. Conversely, for a standard computer that's a lot more general-purpose, it makes more sense to rely on peripherals for direct input, or if we're talking laptops, it makes more sense to include a full keyboard for direct input

>>804745

They should be UMPCs that largely alleviates the need for a desktop on-the-go, not nigger technology that's only fit for mindless consumption. I guess I'll have to do it myself. With cheap and abundant SBCs and Arduinos these days, how hard could it be?

>>804747

There's a reason UMPCs failed anon, although we are starting to see them make a comeback with the GDP Pocket Mini and GDP Win. Overall though, modern smartphones give you just enough of the ability to use as a portable computer as you'd probably want on such a small device anyways. I mean, nothing is stopping you from programming on an Android device, there is a way to get native (not chroot/VM) apt with Debians repos on Android without root. The real question is, would you really want to?

(((Open source))) by Google

Lol

>>804496

>the only physical buttons a smartphone needs...

Write a short story in the dark while travelling on a rickety bus along a pot-holed highway in Nepal - and prove yourself wrong.

On an old BB keypad phone it's easy, with a touchscreen damn near impossible.

>>804747

there is a jewtuber n-o-d-e that built one (bluetooth keyboard & mouse + battery + SBC). There is the CHIP that is similar. Hardest bit is the keyboard if you want to take the authentic route (avoid bluetooth/wireless) an ESP8266 or Ada Feather series could handle the job.

>>807990

What a strange and oddly specific scenario

Regardless, I'd argue it's easier on a touch keyboard because the touch keyboard will always be illuminated in the dark because well...LCD backlights

>>807987

Linux is a kernel

>>808029

>What a strange and oddly specific scenario

Add to that doing it in winter while wearing gloves.

>I'd argue

Experience says your argument is invalid. Keyboards also have a back-light.

>>808033

Irrelevant. Botnet zombies don't merely install kernels. They install kernel + other software = distro

The point made >>807987 is still valid. The fall in usage would come from botnet zombies swapping for the new jewgle fuckxu kernel

An Android phone is more locked down and limited than Windows. So what if it's Linux?

>>808070

Incorrect.

>>808099

>Incorrect

Not him, but he's right. On Android you have no root unless you perform a security exploit. Android is the least restrictive mobile OS, but that's not saying much when its competition is iOS where you can't even access your own home folder directly. To make matters somewhat more complicated, each application is run under its own user, so only applications can directly modify themselves unless you have root. If you don't have root you need to patch the apk and re-install with an application like Lucky Patcher. There's a lot of ways Android restricts you.

>>798179

>Not sure how Dart is any better than Java tho

It's less verbose and better designed.

>>808106

>On Android you have no root unless you perform a security exploit

You'd better hope nobody on xda sees this or you might kill them with laughter

>>808173

Elaborate please, its typically required on Android flagships to perform a security exploit to gain root if the bootloader is locked. Which it typically is outside of Samsung devices and Google branded devices

>open source

there is that disgusting word again, it should be free software

>>798088

>don't consider Android's kernel to be "real Linux".

It's not binary compatible with desktop Linux distro kernels. This has nothing to do with arm vs x86. The kernel has been modified in ways which make it no longer binary compatible.

>>798108

>It's not GNU

That has nothing to do with it faggot. Alpine Linux doesn't use GNU either but it's still binary compatible with other major Linux distros. Stop being a Stallman faglord.

>>816104

>It's not binary compatible with desktop Linux distro kernels. This has nothing to do with arm vs x86. The kernel has been modified in ways which make it no longer binary compatible

That's wrong you stupid fucking queer. For fucks sake why do so many retards here spout shit they simply blatantly have no idea about? There are ways of getting native apt-get running on Android. Android Runtime works by compiling applications to native ELF bibaries at install-time

>>798075 (OP)

has the fuchsia fucks ya meme been pushed yet?

>>798075 (OP)

>the usage share of Linux is going to drop like a brick in a matter of less than a decade

The usage share of Linux 2.x and 3.x, maybe.

>>816469

I know you thought you were being clever, but Linux 2 and 3 kernels make up a vast majority of Linux installs

>>798100

>it's oben sores so you can look at the code

<somehow it doesn't count this time unlike every other time this happens

wew

>>816469

Linux 1.2 was pretty nice and not bloated. After that things got out of hand.

>>798100

this

they already require you to run a 24/7 updater service just to have their shitty chrome and related software going on your machine, who knows what the hell it's doing

a whole OS would be botnet hell

>>816403

This. I installed ffmpeg a while back on my phone because I needed to convert some audio I had just recorded. (I had to send it to a dumbphone, and it wouldn't play AAC.) I ran it from the terminal and it worked as expected.

>>798080

It's "Fuchsia" you retard.

>>798075 (OP)

whit minix on every intel, linux share has skyrocketed

How would you guys feel about someone doing an "ungoogled-chromium" type of thing with this? Would you use it?

>>816948

it's Google os, it will run proprietary binaries. won't be completely open source

>>798081

.t stupid marketeer

>>807990

Now that's what I call autism!

>>802806

lmao as if I'm ever giving up my physical keyboard faggot

>>808029

see above

>>821095

you too faggot

t. owns blackberry

i wouldn't be surprised if the "security features" from this OS are going to be proprietary to "prevent russian hackers"

Some news regarding Fucks Ya has just recently surfaced

http://archive.is/HYvqp

Swift is one of Apples APIs btw

>>798119

>i want google to have success with ((( android ))) because muh help linux development

>i suck corporate's dick

>>825800

The GNU/LUser finally admits he doesn't actually care about the software he uses and just wants to be an edgy contrarian.

The current situation is that Android device manufacturers need to write Linux kernel drivers for their devices. Linux requires such devices to be incorporated into the Linux codebase, which is inconvenient for them, because it requires that they update their code (either in the mainline kernel or a fork that they maintain) to keep pace with Linux development. The difficulty of developing drivers this way means that device manufacturers are slow to support the newer versions of the Linux kernel. Since the version of the Linux kernel is tied to the Android version, this means that device manufacturers are slow to roll out updates of new versions of Android, which is bad for their users but also bad for Google's image.

Another issue with having drivers in the Linux kernel is that all code has to be approved for open source (I know there are binary blobs but afaik these are special cases and most kernel code has to be open source. At least the code that links against the binary blob needs to be maintained). Anyone who has worked in the industry knows that even when there is nothing particularly secret about the code, open sourcing is a hassle. And upstreaming to the mainline kernel is even more of a hassle since your code has to be reviewed by the Linux kernel developers.

So Google's solution is to develop an OS kernel that has a stable ABI. This makes life easier for device manufacturers since they don't have to update their code as the kernel evolves. And it means that the kernel (and hence Android version) can be upgraded independently of the device manufacturers.

This is important for Linux because it challenges Linux's approach to driver development.

There may be other reasons but this is the most convincing reason for such a major change.

>>798077

Android is in fact open source.

But it is usually not free, yeah, that's a different thing.

>>826795

Too bad it won't be GPL.

Linux situation with drivers indeed sucks. We all need a solid kernel with a sane HAL, written in Rust and licensed under GPLv3.

Fuchsia will be yet another cuck fest, I won't be surprised even if fucking iOS will get Fuchsia kernel and remain a totalitarian botnet.

>>825350

So what? Any language can be compiled to something like LLVM bytecode, which can be run anywhere.

It's kind of pointless in this case though, since nobody writes anything serious in Swift, it's only useful for toys.

A stable kernel ABI only serves proprietary drivers, so it's great that Linux does not have one.

AOSP is open source and free software but useless in practice because it does not work without blob drivers. Even ignoring the driver situation the Android 99.9% of AOSP users use is proprietary (GAPPS).

Fucks ya has DRM in it's very basic design spec by the way, so Google will lock down Android so much more than it already does. Microsoft secure boot will be joke in comparison.

>>826835

>A stable kernel ABI only serves proprietary drivers, so it's great that Linux does not have one.

nope. as their number grows to infinity, ANY Linux development will become harder, because to make a refactoring you'll have to amend ∞ drivers.

>>826835

>Fucks ya has DRM in it's very basic design spec by the way

really, where?

>>826795

Linux is about Linus's ego. Monolithic kernel and no ABIs give him more control over the code. If Linus really cared about the users, he would start making a microkernel and call Linux a mistake.

>>827462

That was never the point. Besides, Linux is more or less a microkernel already, it's just vmlinuz itself on top of kernel modules and loaded by an abstracted init.

One could call it a hybrid kernel actually, whereas vmlinuz is the microkernel and the rest of kernel space is the monolithic kernel. In the same exact sense that in Mac OSX Mach is the microkernel while XNU is the monolithic kernel. Or in Windows where ntoskrnl.exe is the microkernel while the rest of the NT kernel space is the monolithic kernel.

But freetards hate using the word "hybrid kernel" for some reason because autism

>>827462

You know, Linus didn't expect his kernel to ever become this popular. It was supposed to be just a hobby project. Back then, everyone thought Hurd was just around the corner.

>>827028

https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/docs/blob/master/book.md

>>827608

Oh shit, that is disgusting.

Not gonna use it. Unless someone steps in and removes all the poz, like with Replicant/LineageOS.

>>827608

>>827614

hmmm it's not a design spec though, it's just a draft of a book about it

>>827608

I see no DRM in there. In fact I actually real like some of the concepts described here, like running the filesystem in userspace as a service rather than being part of the kernel. And it looks like it's even aiming for *nix compatibility with a POSIX subsystem and elf based binary format

>>827688

since linux added modules it is a hybrid kernel now

what's great is being able to compile the kernel into monolithic

now that's power

>>827689

Loadable modules does not make it a hybrid kernel infact its mostly seen in monolithic kernels.

>>827519

Linux is still massive bloat even if the drivers were completely separated (which they're not). It is not a microkernel by any means, not even a hybrid kernel.

http://blog.rchapman.org/posts/Linux_System_Call_Table_for_x86_64/

>>827690

boloney

linux can act as a hybrid kernel if someone chooses to build it modularly. the modules can be stopped and removed at-time without the need to recompile the kernel.

people can choose which modules to compile into kernel or not.

linux can be a hybrid kernel, if the user wants.

how is this not resonating?

>>827700 (double dubs)

/thread

>>827713

Because Linux has nothing from a microkernel so you can't call it a hybrid kernel.

If you want an example of hybrid kernel look at plan9 or dragonflybsd or haiku

>>827713

Because Linux has nothing from a microkernel so you can't call it a hybrid kernel.

If you want an example of hybrid kernel look at plan9 or dragonflybsd or haiku.

>>827519

However you define "hybrid kernel", from the point of view of driver authors having a stable ABI makes a big difference. So from the point of view of driver authors, linux is not "more or less a microkernel already".

Sure, it's better to have kernel modules than something even less modular. But having to keep up with changes in the kernel interface is still a lot of work for driver authors. And so something like Fuchsia could make their lives a lot easier.

I don't know enough about Linux to understand whether there are legitimate reasons not to have a stable ABI. Linus says that it's so they can iterate on the kernel faster.

>>798075 (OP)

good. i dont want the G anywhere near software I use. I get triggered as fuck when I see Google's code in the kernel. they can have their meme kernel named after a mere color as if it's some revolutionary new marketing technique

>>827713

Linux is like x86 and microkernels are like RISC. Microkernels make everything interchangeable and modular. Executable formats and Unix-like file systems are baked into Linux, but this is not true with microkernels. You can do all of that from user mode. There wouldn't be any need to spend billions of dollars on a microkernel either because it is much smaller and does less, which is a good thing because it is made of independent projects instead of centralizing everything like Linux and systemd.

>>828251

This. Because of Facebook SSL is done in the Linux kernel now.

>>828251

>I get triggered as fuck when I see Google's code in the kernel.

You shouldn't use Linux then. Or llvm. Or openssl. Or anything except vanilla Windows, really.

>>798319

>Illumos

>son of Slowlaris that got spanked by Linux even on the ARCHITECTURE LITERALLY CREATED BY ITS DEVELOPERS TO RUN IT

>ever good anywhere except ZFS storage appliances now that Docker exists