/tech/ - Technology★

This. Based and redpilled OP.

Browser war is a meme. JS is a mistake. http has become the js program deliver protocol. Browsers are just javascript vms/interpreters.

But you missed the infrastructures. Even if we have our open protocol, (((whoever))) owns the infractstructures can flip a switch and block any traffic they want. see net neutralility The only way is to start from the backbone. Free internet comes from free hardware. Only by owning the backbone can users be free from (((them))) and bloat.

>>1065701

Yeah. The reason javascript exists is because web became a commercial playing field, every tech company wants to have its own special snowflake software that the client runs without having to install anything. It is proprietary and it's basically vendor lock-in because it prevents interoperability with other systems.

>But you missed the infrastructures

So what alternative do you propose? The main problem is infrastructure is much harder than software, but there might be some way.

>>1065691 (OP)

The answer is to build a modern LispOS.

We can already do that by not browsing the bloated sites. Try wiby.me search engine.

>>1065701

Infrastructure is a fantasy at this point. I don't think that it's worth the time worrying over. But its still a worthy goal to try to make alternatives to http/html/js. Its something that normal people can play at and can still have value even with few users.

>>1065716

But then you lose functionality... Imagine for example if every imageboard used a protocol specifically made for imageboards. Then you could style and modify the client to work however you wanted, be it a graphical interface, command line, ncurses, SMS, packet radio or what have you. All optimized for the bandwidth available. You could make a script to easily batch download all the new posts in every board you use and upload all your responses automatically the next time you connected to the Internet. You could program it to monitor the boards and show you the posts having certain keywords first. You could have a programmable filter, or even things like threading. You could set up a CW transceiver to send and receive messages through morse code or QRSS, and you could have filters to determine what posts to prioritize sending over slow links like packet radio is. And it would work across all boards.

This is how things used to work back in the day. BBS clients, Fidonet, POP3, UUCP, NNTP, mail lists, mail proxies, uuencoded mail. All open source batched protocols and all made with 80s technology. This is what they stole from us. It's time to take it back.

>>1065715

This guy gets it. Everything computer related today is fucked up to provide the maximum amount of profit to the jews.

Back then things were built to be flexible and convenient for people with a moderate amount of skills, now it's all made to extract money from normalfags and to bloat things like Linux with crazy amount of corporate bullshit that helps the aforementioned goal of maximizing profits (like systemd and the ever changing web standards).

>>1065718

Exactly. I want something anyone can play with, not something that you have to live in this specific city and buy this transceiver and set up a directional antenna to be part of a glorified LAN.

And in any case any decentralized infrastructure will probably be slower and have a higher latency than commercial fiber optic links, so providing flexible lightweight protocols and proxies to translate info from the normalfag web is necessary. Also lightweight protocols allow lower CPU and power usage to not be as dependent on the electric grid and the major silicon suppliers.

This talk has some good ideas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr5A2WQGzIQ

>>1065723

>Imagine for example if every imageboard used a protocol specifically made for imageboards.

imageboards are by far the exception. No other website on the internet so ruthlessly clings to a model that was old fashioned when it pioneered 2 decades ago. Even imageboards have had (slow, painful) innovation like multiple boards or files.

Locking in the protocol means that even this innovation is impossible, because there will always be one client or server that doesn't support it, and then everything defaults back to the original protocol. Look at how far IRC has come over its decades of existence. Inline images are still considered an unnecessary extension.

I for one have slowly been hacking away at my own custom imageboard software for a few months. As it stands, it is a modest evolution of the humble imageboard. If imageboards all followed a standard protocol, it would require a ground up rewrite of all clients, and have zero chance of adoption.

HTML is shit. For web devs it means you have to reimplement everything from scratch at every turn, and deal with the abomination that is JS. For users it means that you have next to no control over what your computer is doing, and how you interact with websites. But trying to replace it with a rats nest of custom protocols means that it will live for another thousand years, which nobody wants.

>>1065724

Bro try this script, it will make your pc read the bible 1million times. you can try traditional/fash literature too if the Bible doesn't quite tackle the issue.

wget http://gasl.org/refbib/Bible_King_James_Version.pdf;

for i in {1..1000000}; do cat Bible_King_James_Version.pdf; done

Best of luck.

>>1065726

>imageboards are by far the exception. No other website on the internet so ruthlessly clings to a model that was old fashioned when it pioneered 2 decades ago. Even imageboards have had (slow, painful) innovation like multiple boards or files.

>Locking in the protocol means that even this innovation is impossible, because there will always be one client or server that doesn't support it, and then everything defaults back to the original protocol. Look at how far IRC has come over its decades of existence. Inline images are still considered an unnecessary extension.

Imageboards are the best place for online general purpose discussion, and IRC is the best for real-time discussion (except maybe for matrix stuff that I haven't looked into, or talking with normalfags). Coincidence? I think not.

>Even imageboards have had (slow, painful) innovation like multiple boards or files.

That also happens with protocols, either by the protocol itself changing or people finding ways to expand it by modifying the clients. I bet emails didn't includes attachments at first either. And IRC didn't automatically break text into multiple lines, didn't notify you when your nick was mentioned, didn't have a GUI for admin functionality, didn't have relay software, didn't have bots, etc. etc.

>I for one have slowly been hacking away at my own custom imageboard software for a few months. As it stands, it is a modest evolution of the humble imageboard. If imageboards all followed a standard protocol, it would require a ground up rewrite of all clients, and have zero chance of adoption.

It probably provides nothing that couldn't be done on the client side. Actually, standarization would allow EVERY board to have those improved features, and not just some obscure board with no interesting content and only 3 regular users. Plus no tracking code or obnoxius "features" people don't actually want. Everybody regulates how bloated or lightweight they want their client to be.

>But trying to replace it with a rats nest of custom protocols means that it will live for another thousand years, which nobody wants.

What would you replace it with, then?

>we

Translation: someone else

>another browser thread

awesome

I'll make the logo btw

>>1065723

>>1065708

The difference between hard and software is precisely why hardware should be focused on. Recent hardware security and backdoor discoveries had shown that free hardware is the next step in owning our computer. GNU made it possible to use computer with freedom, free hardware will let us own it.

3d printing and 3d printed milling machine enable home user pcb printing. Meshnet exists. You don't need specific equipment for it. Just a wifi ap is enough. The problem now is crossing the ocean. Launching own satellite may help. EOMA68 made it possible to have $50 computer card, what about $50 solar-power mesh node everywhere?

Regarding normalfag penetration, no, it is never about replacing the internet or doing it for them. It is about what RMS had done. GNU made it possible to use computer with freedom. Free network infrastructure will make it possible to communicate with freedom. This isn't just about freeing ourselves. It is also the foundation for fighting against the botnet.

Face it. Your ISP and VPN are prism, not to mention ICANN. Changing the protocol is nothing but installing GNU on windows and considering that is freedom

http://wndw.net/book.html#readBook

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/10/how-to-build-a-low-tech-internet.html

>>1065735

It has to be somebody else who implements most of this by design. There's no way a single person can achieve what I'm talking about. It would take at least a few dozen people to run a nice network of services.

>>1065737

>GNU made it possible to use computer with freedom

No it didn't, not for most things. Am I free to set up a morse code proxy to 8chan? No, not without having somebody sitting there solving the captchas. What if I want the freedom to download the comments from youtube for the 10 most popular videos with the word "networking" on it? GNU won't bring me more freedom there, not only would it be illegal but . What if I want to download the Google Street View data for my city? GNU doesn't make me any more free to do that than I would be otherwise. Don't get me wrong, free software is a good and important thing, but software is not a solved issue. A large portion of the web only works by running (proprietary and more often than not obfuscated) javascript code, and for some services like imageboards it's impossible even in principle to have some functionalities without having javascript code.

>3d printing and 3d printed milling machine enable home user pcb printing.

Huh? PCB "printing" can be done with a regular laser printer, an iron, some hydrochloric acid, and a drill which is unnecessary with sourface mounted components. a CNC machine (not 3d printing) at most might turn a process that takes an hour into something that takes 5 minutes, not worth it for a home user.

>Meshnet exists. You don't need specific equipment for it. Just a wifi ap is enough.

Depends on which ones. But at the very least you need directional antennas to get any sort of range. And as I said, it only works inside big cities, and you're just making a glorified LAN.

>The problem now is crossing the ocean.

No, even connections between cities are pretty much impossible using regular APs, and even fully covering a city is hard.

>The problem now is crossing the ocean. Launching own satellite may help.

Agreed, a geostationary satellite would be pretty cool. But it should be on VHF or UHF and be able to be worked with a simple FM handy or at least an SSB radio, none of that 10Ghz bullshit like in Es'hail 2.

Also I've heard there are some dumb-pipe UHF satellites in geostationary orbit like FLTSATCOM, but commercial. I don't know how enforced their use is. FLTSATCOM is regularly pirated by brazilians and only 30 or so arrests have been made.

There should also be more info on how to work the AMSAT birds. They could be used to support a store-and-forward network.

As I said, batched and store-and-forward network protocols are excellent because they can be used over the shittiest of infrastructures, even by physically moving cd-roms from one place to another.

Maybe we could set up a page where people organize to exchange data, with say dead drop location, radio contacts with time frequency and mode, AP location+passwords+local server URL so you can drive there with your car and let the software exchange info, etc. and a few web proxies that receive addresses and send back a zipped version of the page with (optionally) all the necessary assets packed. Later on it could be modified to also download torrents for you etc. And all this could be made to run over Tor so the person running the node doesn't get fucked in the ass by law enforcement if somebody makes an illegal request. It also could be offered over SSH, email, SMS, or any kind of underlying physical layer you can think of.

This would require even less infrastructure and network density than using APs with directional antennas.

>it is never about replacing the internet

>Free network infrastructure will make it possible to communicate with freedom.

Not sure what you're trying to say. Sound to me like you are trying to replace the Internet.

In any case, the Internet already can be made to have enough privacy with encryption. The problems are anonymity and availability in case the ruling regime decides to shut it down.

Availability can be solved to some extent. Anonymity is harder but still could be solved to some extent by satellite radio or dead drops. Not sure if that'd be safer than Tor or i2p though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HfvmU_utI8

looks like you could get maybe about 20 KB of data per pass

not a lot, but useful for some stuffs

>>1065740

Your OS is not the internet. 8chan is not yours, neither is Google maps. Being free for your computing is not the same of in control of everything. See pedo in land of "free"

>1 hour into 5 mins

that's enough to manufacture and sell free hardware for cheap. Also enables rapid hardware development

>glorified lan

so is the internet

>connections between cities impossible

That is why work has to be done to make it happen

>satellite

Probably is what should be done, but space junk and laws. Need more minds on it. Also costs (crowd source?)

>deaddrop

Good point for current situation. While working to grow the meshnet, deaddrop is a good option for secure communication.

>replacing the internet

"the" internet always refer to that one you are using, the one currently being controlled, the one that precisely require you to unblock their fucking javascript for a Google Street View, the one that can enforce a great china firewall in the west in a snap to fuck all wrongthing/crime protocol banning tor, killing websites

Is GNU's plan taking over Windows? No, it is a stepping stone to free all who wish to be freed.

>enough privacy

tor is glowed, anonymity is shrinking. Like I said, normalfags won't care and will even welcome the total ban for wrong protocols, services and users. Overlaying on top of non-free infrastructure put your communication on other's hand.

Free internet is an alternative to internet, one that can actually be designed to be anonmyous and secure from the ground up. One that allows any protocol as new ones got developed.

>>1065691 (OP)

>We must create our own alternatives to this incompatible, slow, bloated mess that is the modern javascript/web system

Have fun in your circlejerk of autists, the same people who never made bloated shit websites to begin with. Meanwhile everyone else will keep using the original web because it has way more capabilities. All you'll accomplish is making the real internet have a higher ratio of shit websites and having the good websites lose all their users.

Try gopher, faggot.

>>1065745

based

>>1065735

My current project is making power RF amplifiers from scrapyard BJTs and MOSFETs from power sources and the like. I'm trying to make a contribution, albeit a small one

this coupled with fl2k and RTL-SDR could get you a nice wideband transceiver

>>1065744

>Your OS is not the internet. 8chan is not yours, neither is Google maps.

So? If McDonalds bans me from being a client there then I'm not free to eat at McDonalds. Doesn't matter that it is not my property, nor does it matter that if I was a billionaire I theoretically could set up my own chain of restaurants. I am less free that I would be otherwise (for example if they hadn't banned me, or if I could fool their security guards). I have less freedom.

>Being free for your computing is not the same of in control of everything.

Sure, so? I'm not proposing to set our own Street View. I'm proposing scraping their data and making it available over other services/proxies.

>that's enough to manufacture and sell free hardware for cheap. Also enables rapid hardware development

If you're ordering components from China, you might as well order the board. If you're recycling junk, then yeah, it could be an interesting proposition. But so is making boards without CNC machines, which are expensive. Most of that one hour you'll be waiting for the hydrochloric acid to eat through the copper anyway, could easily multitask.

<glorified lan

>so is the internet

No, the point of the Internet is that it spans the whole World. It's not a LOCAL area network.

>Probably is what should be done, but space junk and laws. Need more minds on it. Also costs (crowd source?)

The problem is not really space junk, the actual problem with cubesats is the expensive requirements that it has to meet (mainly structurally) to ensure it won't fuck up the main payload of the rocket. IIRC you're looking at like 10k per cubesat not including design, construction, and payload, just the frame and the launch.

>Overlaying on top of non-free infrastructure put your communication on other's hand.

Again, if you want to send data through a network with the overall quality of a 70s BBS running on somebody's basement you're gonna need new protocols.

>>1065746

gopher is fine, but AFAIK it's really not much different from FTP

>>1065744

there will never be a real replacement for the internet. no one has the money to build the infrastructure that it needs and almost no one cares enough to even think about such things. its all just this laggy garbage like i2p that still uses the existing internet.

>>1065754

Well, you have APRS. The main problem is they fucked up by not including a decent way of routing packets.

As you can see, radio comes up again and again when talking about alternatives to the Internet.

Maybe in the future something like the Uber of Internet connections will come about and allow people to set up networks to serve people for money and compete with ISPs. It's our job to ensure the first big player in this area is not a jewy SV startup or similar.

>>1065744

>tor is glowed

You know what REALLY glows? The amount of bullshit 8chan puts you through to post using tor, especially that dnsbls_bypass.php bullshit. Some additional spam is always better than discouraging anonymity services.

There is only one thing you need to do:

disable javascript

problem solved.

>>1065757

>disables javascript

>99.9% websites cease to function even at minimum level, all you get is blank page

>problem not solved

>>1065763

Stop visiting garbage sites.

>>1065766

Then there's no problem to begin with. Time to lock the thread, problem solved.

>>1065767

based

>>1065734

>What would you replace it with, then?

A better web browser. Something designed from the start for writing applications against, rather than hacking them on afterwards. Web apps have the property that they protect your security, they require no installation, and things like text selection/bookmarking/sharing work by default. You'd want to preserve these properties, then add on things like protecting privacy, allowing people to save copies of web pages, allowing people to write alternative clients and so on.

One easy way to get half of this is to require that a webpage specifies all the resources it needs at page load, then provide no way for it to make network requests after that. This gets you privacy and page saving. The second thing I'd do is force all resources to be cached for 24 hours. The exception would be data requests that would need to follow a standardized format. This would give alternative clients 24 hours notice of the format changing.

You'd have to think hard about each feature to make sure it isn't overburdenous on devs while still protecting users. You'd need to make something that was easy for both parties to adopt if you wanted it to go anywhere. inb4 larp I can program but I don't have the time or patience for a project of this scale. You'd probably need to get crowd funding, have community contributors devoted to the cause and so on. I'd send you a patch sometime.

>>1065691 (OP)

Gopher for general webpages, ssh for modern bbs functionality. The general web doesn't really need anything beyond that.

>muh meshnets

>muh free space lasers

>muh geosync ham radio satellite

If enough money could be scratched together from a bunch of LARPers for that, you faggots do know "the Internet" is actually constructed from individual leased lines that telecoms are more than happy to sell you, right?

>>1065715

>merge programming environment, os, software, and documents

Interesting thought, but rarely attempted in anything resembling a user friendly way.

>>1065723

>Imagine for example if every imageboard used a protocol specifically made for imageboards.

>This is how things used to work back in the day. BBS clients, Fidonet, POP3, UUCP, NNTP, mail lists, mail proxies, uuencoded mail. All open source batched protocols and all made with 80s technology. This is what they stole from us. It's time to take it back.

THIS

I'll add that many competing and rapidly evolving proprietary pieces of telecom software, such as FirstClass and Hotline, were built in a simple and modular way that allowed 3rd-party clients and APIs to work. The transition away from such openness was surprisingly recent, with for instance Skype going from a P2P protocol with a public API and active support for 3rd-party clients accompanying their simple and fully native 1st-party client, to a centralized botnet system with no API and a bloated web/Electron client.

>>1065856

>A better web browser. Something designed from the start for writing applications against, rather than hacking them on afterwards.

Agreed on your thoughts about web apps that actually need a full scripting runtime (I would add the stipulation of tiered limits on execution, in total operations allowed between interactions, and total operations per second, so multiple background tabs of a supposedly humble nature couldn't choke your CPU to death).

But IMHO that's massive overkill for nearly all webpages, whose featuresets are similar enough that a simple database-oriented protocol for GUI WIMP CRUD screens would cover 99.999% of use cases. Everything from web fora or social networks, to stores, to media streaming hosts, to wikis, to news, are all essentially identical:

>plop some WIMP widgets and Db fields on the user's screen

>widgets send and recieve Db commands

>dump data into or from user's fields and the server's Db

No user-side scripting necessary

>>1065906

>"the Internet" is actually constructed from individual leased lines that telecoms are more than happy to sell you

Leased lines cost thousands of dollars per foot and require constant maintenance. Even then, you don't actually own them, because the government can come in and tell you to start censoring people or else. Each node in a meshnet could cost as low as a couple dollars if the volume was brought up, and that could cover several hundred feet depending on the power of the antenna. lasers would be much more expensive per unit, but would cover much larger distance, and would be much harder to detect and censor.

>No user-side scripting necessary

Even silly stuff like showing a post when you hover over the id requires scripting. You could have a swath of built-in widgets that devs could call for doing stuff like this, but the only way websites can evolve is if you allow devs to write custom widgets.

Is it possible at all to utilize existing wired telephone lines in people's homes but without needing a subscription to the telco? like a text-only really minimal BBS/messageboard type thing that ran off of electrical signals sent over telephone lines that interfaces with some device made with shit from radioshack/jameco/etc

>>1065963

> the only way websites can evolve is if you allow devs to write custom widgets.

Losing that would be acceptable to me- as the only really tolerable "evolutions" I've seen over the years are browser games which easily could have just been downloaded directly, and video sharing sites. Paring it down to the bare essentials would be a welcome change to needing a gigabyte+ of ram just to display some text and images.

>>1065971

Phone phreaking, but that's pretty illegal.

>>1065973

I was briefly in the phreaking scene but I wasn't around at its peak sadly. Seems like most of it now is just dialing into PBXs and guessing voicemail PINs for the Hell of it. Regardless of legality it would be interesting to see what could be done

>>1065971

>Is it possible at all to utilize existing wired telephone lines in people's homes but without needing a subscription to the telco?

No, because nowadays telephone copper lines are just a cable going to a glorified VoIP endpoint that then routes the call through optical fiber to another endpoint. A lot of the telephone network actually runs over the Internet and not the other way around.

Even if it does the switching is fully automatic. You could physically tap into a friends line that runs in front of your house, though, I guess.

Also sometimes you get crossover between lines, could probably get some data in-between.

>>1065963

>Even silly stuff like showing a post when you hover over the id requires scripting.

Not if you have a protocol made for it, then you can write a client that does that for you without running the BO's shitty code.

>Leased lines cost thousands of dollars per foot and require constant maintenance.

This. Plus the point would be to use your own resilient infrastructure, otherwise you might as well make use of the existing IP networks. Not to mention there isn't enough interest to make dedicated fiber lines break-even.

>>1065906

>I would add the stipulation of tiered limits on execution, in total operations allowed between interactions, and total operations per second, so multiple background tabs of a supposedly humble nature couldn't choke your CPU to death

Could be done with the existing web standards, but it's not done because the browser devs are marketing jews who only care about making normalfag's computers consume 400 watts just to show some flashy animations so the nigger cattle think the site looks really "professional" and clicks on the ads.

>>1065856

>One easy way to get half of this is to require that a webpage specifies all the resources it needs at page load, then provide no way for it to make network requests after that.

Yeah that would be better than what we have now but still doesn't enforce interoperability and standardized APIs.

>Something designed from the start for writing applications against

Gee, I sure love having to run a Windows 10 clone on this virtual machine thing called a "web browser" just so I can check up how much the jews are depositing on my good goy account for moping floors.

>inb4 implying other useful sites like libgen, boards or TPB aren't filled with malware too and have no public API available

Why do I always read that crap?

The only thing that still needs JS is live updates.

Rest can be done with CSS if you're clever about it.

What uses live updates? Videostreams, chats, etc. (Things you don't find often on the web.)

>>1066014

de404ing and also bumping

>>1065691 (OP)

starting with this shit website

>hur dur block tor

>hur dur force tor users to go over tor address for no reason

>hur dur 10 captchas for one post

>hur dur enable referer [sic]

>hur dur cookies-based captcha

>>1066014

>The only thing that still needs JS is live updates

What about highlighting posts when you hover over a reply link in 8chan? Or opening the post options menu? Any non-JS alternative is gay as fuck to use, or bloated in terms of amount of HTML it requires. What about adding back links to old posts when a new post is loaded?

>inb4 those aren't important features so they don't count

As long as there's things that people want but can't get without JS, there will be JS.

>>1066861

You can literally do all that stuff with CSS and it's literally easier

>degenerate

browsers don't have morals or ethics

do you just shoehorn /pol/-speak into every possible conversation, you cucky boomer?

>>1066920

>cucky boomer

>complains about buzzwords

Step 1: uninstall any nonfree software

Step 2: actively contribute to the fsf, not the linux trannies

Step 3: ???

Step 4: profit!

>>1065691 (OP)

Copyright destroyed your options. This is the endgame. The web is in the process to be split up by nations. Afterwards it will be nonstop propaganda about the outside, and nothing but capitalist consumerism on the inside. You all fell for their pedophilia trap, when you were supporting their actions against child abuse content online. Little did you know that this was all a scam to create the most draconian copyright laws ever and use them in combination with "muh children" to rain down censorship over the entire internet. Feel betrayed? Well, the same guys behind shutting down CP are also the global main distributors of child abuse content. So when you don't have any freedom to communicate anymore, you can at least be sure to get endless supply of CP.

>>1066937

That's all advertisement to groom the public into pedo acceptance. At the same time it's been used by the same people to use pedophilia to rile people against dissidents of the system (look no further than 8chan). they win no matter which side looses. It's all about playing both sides for the guaranteed long term win.