/tech/ - Technology★

Both wayland and X are bad: designed by incompetent idiots, riddled with bugs and design errors, and they both have massive vulnerabilities that allow non-root attackers to do nasty shit such as keylogging every use on the system.

Just choose the one that breaks the least with the software you use.

>>1030120

>only my framebuffer is not bad

Sure anon.

>>1030127

I don't think he's implying something else is good.

>>1030108 (OP)

>Why does no one ever talk about it here?

Because its existence destroys the illusion many people have on this board that their fancy little "minimalist" programs aren't actually that minimal, being dependent on X.

I don't know about the Wayland protocol itself (except some stuff like logind dependency) but the fact that they didn't write wlroots but let some random anons do it is pretty pathetic. I mean, it's supposed to be a LOT smaller than X11, so make the library, at least.

>>1030120

>wayland

>keylogging

inb4 the LD_PRELOAD "keylogger" joke

>>1030127

>implying I consider framebuffer to be usable

>>1030138

elaborate on how that's supposed to be a joke: it logs key presses, it can be installed without root, and it work on default settings.

even if you can easily build an anti-keylogger to stop it, the fact that such an attack is allowed in the first place is shameful.

>>1030151

Then what do you suggest?

>>1030177

use whatever works better for you, and be extra careful about security

Wayland is used only by Ubuntu and Ubuntu abandoned it. So now nobody uses it!

>>1030187

why use some incomplete meme when x just works

>>1030187

If I remember correctly Gnome and KDE use it already independent of what distro you're on, retard.

Ubuntu corp (TM) first tried to develop their own incompatible Wayland which turned out to be a total clusterfuck, so they too switched to Wayland.

I just looked it up. It was called Mir:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wayland

>>1030188

It doesn't just work. It's slow as fuck and extremely inefficient. Wayland is a protocol.

It doesn't add any component. It just specifies how the program can talk directly to the window manager, so GNUfags can throw X into the paper bin because it's useless and does nothing anymore apart from giving the frame to the window manager.

AND FOR THE LAST TIME: X IS NOT NETWORK TRANSPARENT ANYMORE! SO YOU CAN SHUT UP ABOUT THAT.

The people working on Wayland are mostly people who formerly worked on shrinking Xbloat.

>>1030199

>so GNUfags can throw X into the paper bin because it's useless

can I run a gui program over ssh with wayland?

can I run an entire XFCE/LXDE/etc session over the network with wayland?

>>1030199

if its good then distros will switch to it when its stable. no good distro would make some buggy and incomplete thing the default

>>1030214

i could live with kde but not a mobile de like gnome and i dont want a tiling wm

>>1030211

>no good distro would make some buggy and incomplete thing the default

Laughs in systemD

>>1030221

gnome is pretty comfy once you get dash to dock and some other tweak you comletely forget it has that hideous app gui thing

>>1030214 She looks like Wayland.

>>1030210

No you can't with Wayland nor X.

You can simply use a VNC server.

Yes but you can do that with X and a VNC server too.

>>1030210

>XFCE/LXDE

forgot that those probably don't have Wayland support yet

Loads of software will still have X dependencies, so while you might not be running X you will still need it installed. and so far there are no big ticket programs that actually require wayland so there is little to no incentive to change, unless they decide to form a cabal with the major DEs, and maybe a handful of graphical tool kits to make wayland a hard dependency, thus allowing them to shit their project right down everyone's throats, à la systemd.

>>1030138

>inb4 the LD_PRELOAD "keylogger" joke

Does this shit work on Wayland? https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2011/04/linux-security-circus-on-gui-isolation.html

Not usable, better than X, not botnet (but sometimes relies on dbus).

No one talks about it because of the first reason, that and X even when it's unfriendly to the unix philosophy it's still much MUCH easier to use and configure than wayland.

>>1030151

It's a joke because the vulnerability is in shared library handling (LD_PRELOAD, namely), not Wayland itself.

>>1030187

>Mir* is used only by Canonical* and Canonical* abandoned it. So now nobody uses it.

Right idea, wrong project.

>>1030138

i thought memeland was supposed to fix the fact that X clients can fuck with each other. it's still probably shit though, like every existing form of program isolation

>>1030267

>It's a joke because the vulnerability is in shared library handling (LD_PRELOAD, namely), not Wayland itself.

That's not what I would call a joke: it means Wayland not only is not secure, but cannot ever be made secure without changing other parts of the operating system.

It means that motherfucking windows vista is more secure.

>>1030210

>can I run a gui program over ssh with wayland?

you can in X11 but then the guy you SSHd into can haxor your shit

>can I run an entire XFCE/LXDE/etc session over the network with wayland?

why in fucks name would you want to do that? the entire remote bullshit in X11 is not only bloat but a security and performance problem

>>1030210

>muh networkin

You do realise that X hasn't supported that in years, right?

The fact you don't know this means you never actually used it in the first place, if you did you would have realised this.

>>1030212

It's the same for me.

I do run into issues and the whole thing is just really slow in general, but I blame GNOME for that.

>>1030277

>you can in X11

Not with application made after 2000 and I'm not sure X11 still has support for that bullshit.

>>1030301

>>1030316

What? firefox works over x11 forward and so does any other prog I have ever tried. X has security extensions for running untrused applications but I don't know how well they work.

>>1030323

>>1030236

this. you can with X

you can spread an X session / desktop across 50 computers on 50 different monitors with X.

can wayland do this?

if wayland could do this then I would have no problem with wayland, but as far as I know it cannot, so it is not a viable replacement of X

>>1030316

I'm doing it right now nigger.

>>1030301

>muh networkin

You do realise that X has supported that for years, right?

The fact you don't know this means you never actually used it in the first place, if you did you would have realised this.

YOU CAN EVEN X11 FORWARD FROM LINUX->WINDOWS/OSX

these are literally wayland shills saying you can't.

you can

try it

it works

>>1030334

>using windows

>>1030274

https://drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-debunked.html

>>1030329

>>1030330

>>1030323

>>1030331

The point is X only gets an image.

Is it faster than a VNC?

This is what I don't get about X. If I forward the X session to another computer, is the server processing and rendering the session or is the client?

>>1030360

You can test this out for yourself very easily by doing an ssh -X and running top on both computers.

>>1030392

should use the compression option too. it will lag even with a 100m wired connection if you dont.

>>1030360

The server is processing and the client is rendering. With VirtualGL you can let the server process OpenGL applications locally on it's graphics card and let the client display the results. With x2x you can share mouse and keyboard uncomplicated via multiple X servers. You can even do stuff like create x servers with virtual framebuffers (no graphics card needed) and share that session to other computers or run multiple X servers without even having a graphics card. X can do a lot of stuff and /tech/ would know if they weren't just a bunch of larpers parroting what they read on reddit.

X is absolute, unadulterated, pure fucking garbage, and I wholeheartedly welcome the advent of Wayland, or literally any other display server/protocol that comes along and takes X to the fucking gallows once and for all.

The model as a whole is extremely outdated, visibly inefficient, insecure, and it such a fucking mess of spaghetti code and extensions and life support that only a few people on the planet still understand how to actually maintain it. Their opinion on X? "Kill it with fire, please."

For a group of people that love to lambaste Windows users for having "babyduck syndrome", I've never seen more babyducks when it comes to the retards peddling the "x-xorg just werks" shit and spreading dumbfuck FUD about Wayland. (Of course, in all fairness, it doesn't help when all the distros out there wanted to be the first kids on the block to use Wayland and started pushing it out before it was 100% ready, leading to the average retarded joe to swear off of it.)

Similarly, for a group of people that jerk themselves off over software minimalism, there sure are a lot of people that love to suck the bloated dick of X. The same people who cry "Systemd does way too much for an init system!" seem to have no problem with all of the shit a display server shouldn't be doing, and they're too fucking retarded to understand that the Wayland protocol will eventually/has already gotten standardized extensions/addons for the sorts of shit they're bitching about (for instance, screensharing is now implemented under Pipewire, which on a side note, will kill another cancer, PA, eventually)

Simply put, and in simple user terms--X is responsible for a lot of the jankiness of the Linux desktop (as you'd expect of a display server that's been kept on life support for 30 years), and when Wayland is eventually adopted, it'll go a LONG way towards bringing Linux to the fucking 21st century.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsz7Shbnb9c

Good video on the subject.

>>1030108 (OP)

Wayyyland is crap too. And 99% of your GUI programs still require X11. So just run Xorg or use vconsole. X11 needs a replacement but Wayland is not the one.

>>1030231

this. if (((red hat))) and ĉïå start to push it, many if not most distros will fall for the bandwagon PSYOP.

>>1030232

>Gnome

>comfy

no. just no. use xfce, kde or some WM. gnome is 100% pozz, all gnome people do is remove features and make it uglier.

>>1030347

<Wayland doesn’t have network transparency!

>This is actually true! But it’s not as bad as it’s made out to be. Here’s why: X11 forwarding works on Wayland.

>Wait, what? Yep: all mainstream desktop Wayland compositors have support for Xwayland, which is an implementation of the X11 server which translates X11 to Wayland, for backwards compatibility. X11 forwarding works with it! So if you use X11 forwarding on Xorg today, your workflow will work on Wayland unchanged.

>However, Wayland itself is not network transparent. The reason for this is that some protocols rely on file descriptors for transferring information quickly or in bulk. One example is GPU buffers, so that the Wayland compositor can render clients without copying data on the GPU - which improves performance dramatically. However, little about Wayland is inherently network opaque. Things like sending pixel buffers to the compositor are already abstracted on Wayland and a network-backed implementation could be easily made. The problem is that no one seems to really care: all of the people who want network transparency drank the anti-Wayland kool-aid instead of showing up to put the work in. If you want to implement this, though, we’re here and ready to support you! Drop by the wlroots IRC channel and we’re prepared to help you implement this.

Their solution to wayland not supporting networking is hurr just use our X translator, which will work perfectly fine after we EEE X and force everything that wants to pop a GUI on linux to use wayland instead of X so X no longer works and the translator is useless.

Oh and if you want networking support which we did not include just write it yourself! Don't forget wayland is supposed to replace X except we didn't write all the stuff that it's supposed to replace, but use wayland anyway and write it yourself!

>>1030347

>Another thing I want to note is that Xorg still works. If you find your needs aren’t met by Wayland, just keep using X! We won’t be offended. I’m not trying to force you to use it. Why you heff to be mad?

We're just going to shill wayland everywhere and talk about how shit X is until redhat eventually forces it down everyone's throat like they did with systemd.

>>1030465

the dock on xfce is trash and kde is bloat

>>1030347

>some blog

>posted a couple days ago

>entire argument is bullshit

Listen, faggot, if "any program which is in a position to do this has already won" refers to a position attainable without root, the system is not secure in the slightest.

Saying "Wayland is only one part of an otherwise secure system" is the exact opposite of the truth.

Also, writing:

>Actually, Nvidia doesn’t support us.

Unironically kill yourself.

You're a fucking faggot developing some GUI software for a microscopic market share,why do you expect a multi-billion dollar megacorp such as Nvidia to cater to your shitty work for free?

You dumb nigger, that's not how the world works.

Also apparently support for locking the pointer to the active window has been in the works for almost 4 years and is still not widely adopted, lmao Linux.

>>1030431

Nice strawman. Could you point to the posts saying that "Xorg just werks"? Protip: both Xorg and Wayland can be shit.

I mean, explain this:

>https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots

>Pluggable, composable, unopinionated modules for building a Wayland compositor; or about 50,000 lines of code you were going to write anyway.

How do you make anything minimalist when Wayland just removed 90% of Xorg and said "just implement it in your compositor, lol!!!1!1"? And if this library didn't exist? What about the fact that Wayland is just freedesktopware, meaning that it only cares about Linux (just go fuck yourselves, BSDs)?

And how do you manage to make that retarded strawman when you faggots aren't even talking about this, but only about the fact that their favourite WM doesn't exist as a compositor yet? I'd also like a good terminal emulator, not some VTE abomination or GPU accelerated bulshit.

>>1030347

Did you see Drew sperging out in the HN comments? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19128420 lol

>>1030519

jesus christ the freetards over there.

"Nvidia is a bad actor because they refuse to do as they demand! Capitalist pigs!"

>>1030519

this butthurt is delicious

>There is a very high likelihood that when a user complains about Wayland support for Nvidia they mean this

<As the actual person who receives these complaints... this isn't true. Once it's explained, though, the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault.

>If you're representing Wayland, this problem is your problem whether you want it or not.

<It's not. We can just choose not to solve it. Use X and buy smarter when the next harware upgrade comes around, or wait until your hardware is supported by nouveau if you don't want to upgrade any time soon.

We're just not going to solve any problems with half of linux desktops because wayland breaks support that X had. If nvidia doesn't fix our problems than users can just buy new graphics cards or write the software themselves.

wayland is worse than I thought.

>>1030533

wayland's responses here sound just like microsoft's responses when asked the question about xbox requiring network connections

>What about people who don't have internet, will XBox One work without an internet connection?

<We have a product for these people, it's called XBox 360

>>1030533

Now remember, that's not wayland being especially bad: that's the entire FOSS world encouraging ego stroking over results

>>1030522

Do you want a (you), piggy?

>>1030535

https://cmpwn.com/@sir

>The idea of an "arrogant upstream" is in and of itself an excellent example of the entilted garbage upstreams have to deal with

>Why can't people just read the fucking article before they leave their braindead comment

>I'm just making a cool project, and I can make it any way I want. If you don't like it, just fucking use X

>Do you depend on income from Patreon and are concerned about their sustainability? I wrote on Hacker News about why & how I diversified my donation streams:

>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19095350

>If anyone would like free hosting for a fosspay instance of their own, don't hesitate to reach out. It's not resource intensive for me to sustainably operate fosspay instances with no fees and I would be happy to help anyone who needs it.

There's quite a few posts shitting on rust so he isn't 100% bad.

>>1030533

Honestly nvidia buyers should be shot on sight regardless

Man, Nvidia owner cattle tears sure are yummy.

I have been running Sway for a few months now. It is fantastic. Minor problems, but that is to be expected from a beta. The sway developers are doing an amazing job.

>>1030731

>Why won't Nvidia implement GBM?

Why would Nvidia bother implementing yet another Linux exclusive API when less than 5% of their customers are on Linux?

>so instead of unfucking their own driver and implementing standard APIs

Don't pretend GBM is standard by any reasonable meaning of the word.

>>1030748

>Why would Nvidia bother implementing yet another Linux exclusive API when less than 5% of their customers are on Linux?

>Don't pretend GBM is standard by any reasonable meaning of the word.

It's more standard than EGLStreams and actually works despite its issues. It doesn't help that Nvidia is used to throwing their weight around on Windows and suffers from a terrible case of NIH syndrome.

>>1030748

>when less than 5% of their customers are on Linux?

I have a hard time believing that with the advent of scamcoin.

AMD is supposed to be better all around for that but you still see shit posted of bitcoin idiots posting pictures of literally stacks of nvidia gpu's 10 feet high for their bitcoin rigs.

wayland is seen largely as a joke because you'll still end up pulling in Xserver as a depend anyway if you actually want to do anything.

In that wayland has failed to branch away from X and has just become another bloated hacked together mess stringed ontop of it.

The idea was admirable and i still wish for it to succeed but in it's current state it's literally just X+another damn protocal.

It's also much slower than Xorg so if you wanted to switch to it for "minimal speed" reasons, don't bother.

>>1030545

>>1030586

>>1030774

>>1030798

I don't like the nVidia monopoly any more than you do, but the choices for years now are either blow money on underpowered joke hardware, or sacrifice decent desktop drivers to buy team green.

>>1030108 (OP)

>is it botnet

Can you please start using using proper terms on technology board?

Easiest way to spot newb larper

>everything I don't like or understand is a botnet

Let's call things by their real names pumpkin, ok?

>>1031395

>Can you please do X on /tech/

>Easiest way to spot

>It's not botnet goy

>Let's

I speak for /tech/

>pumpkin

>ok?

Easiest way to spot the jew

>>1031424

>everyone that dislikes my shitposts is a jew

wew lad

>>1031552

cant do that when the hardware is proprietary and they were much simpler too when people were doing that

Yes. Old graphics cards were literally just framebuffers the CPU pushed the screen contents to. "GUI acceleration" if available at all was limited to blitting and simple primitives like the drawing of lines. Modern graphics cards are basically computers for themselves, you cannot compare the complexity at all.

It's not garbage, unlike X

https://youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ

>>1033779

cant use before it has openbox or something like it. i dont want the foot de or kde or a tiling wm

>>1033781

There's an Openbox clone using wlroots but it's very WIP, I don't even know if it's in a working state. You can try contributing to that if you want.

https://github.com/wizbright/waybox

Sadly there's not much love for Wayland but we can change that. I'm working on my own compositor as well.