/liberty/ - Liberty

>>93961

Are you being ironic or was that a serious reply? Read the article, that "Keynesian boom" has been going on for 40 years and doesn't seem to be stopping. You seem to be stuck in some 90s boomer daydream, blissfully unaware of how much China has moved beyond manufacturing and modernised.

>>93962

Name one chink company with brand recognition, that sells original products. Name one chink company with products that consumers associate with quality, or bang for your buck. Even the Taiwanese, a country with chink stock that isn't even considered a real country by the UN, has achieved this with multiple brands such as Asus. China has no such brands, because there is no innovation in China, only imitation.

>that "Keynesian boom" has been going on for 40 years and doesn't seem to be stopping.

Don't be retarded. Keynesian boom refers specifically to artificial growth from rapid credit expansion, and China began large-scale credit expansion about 10 years ago, not 40, which puts them right on schedule for a crash in the near future. Their growth of the 30 years prior to that is nothing more than them playing catch-up to the rest of the world, and they still haven't achieved parity with it. Any growth looks impressive when you start from zero.

>>93964

>muh soft power meme

Ford has brand recognition but eats huge bailouts to stop from going under, brand recognition doesn't mean shit if all the name brands are directly supported by China to maintain profits. Playing popularity contest is as dumb as saying Japan is superior to America economically just because their comics are more popular globally, or pretending Apple products aren't overpriced horseshit just because they have a larger market share than some unpronounceable Chinese brand. Want brand recognition? Ask yourself why 70% of things you buy in the USA happen to have a big "Made in China" stamp on.

>Keynesian boom refers specifically to artificial growth from rapid credit expansion, and China began large-scale credit expansion about 10 years ago, not 40, which puts them right on schedule for a crash in the near future.

They've been saying that since the 90s, "Keynesian boom" could be any dumb goalpost moving definition you want it to be, because if you had bothered to read the article, you'd see that their evolving economic system, economic growth and quality of life increases have been a constant trend since 80s reform, not arbitrarily popped out some random date 10 years ago.

>Their growth of the 30 years prior to that is nothing more than them playing catch-up to the rest of the world, and they still haven't achieved parity with it. Any growth looks impressive when you start from zero.

Completely retarded boomerposting. They've beaten out most of the EU in quality of life, education and STEM output. You are literally framing your argument around a 20 year outdated vision of China in your head.

>>93972

>They've beaten out most of the EU in quality of life

Jej.

>education

Ah, so that's why they're all going to American universities.

>STEM output

The fuck does that even mean?

And you're focusing on these ancillary statistics becasue you can't argue around the big one: economic size. Three times the population of the US and their GDP is still smaller.

>>93972

if you're talking about their number of patents, its true that they have the highest amount of patents in the world but at the same time they have the lowest patent renewals in the world. The reason for this is making a patent is a shortcut to success in their universities, so students just make junk design patents to get free credits.

>>93973

Utilitarianism is cancer, it may be useful for getting normalfags on board but you can't stop there. Abandoning philosophy and principles would be utterly retarded, unless you just want to start up some bloody revolution and then get subverted. You need both philosophy AND arms, not just one or the other.

>>94003

Published papers too. Sounds like you're basing that completely on anecdote and rumours.

>>94033

Once again using gross output to to provide the illusion of success I see. Once more, China has more land and three times the population of the US, along with a healthy supply of natural resources. The fact that they are only just now catching up to the US despite these massive advantages isn't indicative of success, it only adds insult to injury.

>Earlier thread

<How do we BTFO Muh gommie china????

>Now

<Look how well capitalism is working in China LMAO

China's economy despite being State-Capitalist led by a Leninist party would still be called "Ebil Stalinism" by most of /Liberty/ if they actually studied it for more then five minutes

And yes China's economy is booming and we will witness the end of American Hegemony in the next 10 years at most

>>93961

>Muh knockoffs

>Muh "Originality"

>Muh Intellectual Property

I already explained why this is borderline Moralism and retarded in the last thread about this

>>94091

>The Chinese Miracle in terms of standards of living and the pulling over a Billion people out of poverty is voided because their gonna dwarf America's economy in 10 years instead of right now

I love it when burgers get on this level of C O P E

>>94168

Name a country right now practicing austrian economics as rule of law, my brainful friend

>>94170

Austrian economics is a series of if-then statements, not an ideology or law. Every country that engages with the market in any way, shape, or form is practicing "Austrian economics", because Austrian economics can accurately and substantively explain the effects that their policies will have on the economy.

>>94164

State-Capitalism is the CCP's current stance to develop China's economy away from the Semi-Feudal state continued to exist in well into the 70s because of Mao's failures

China's success is not because of the free Market but because of the Chinese goverment allowing capital and capitalists to develop its nation while maintaining the communist parties dominance over the governing heights of the economy

China is State-Capitalist and Libertarians are ridiculous to attempt to compare it reagenomics considering the massive level of state involvement within the economy

>>94176

>China's success is not because of the free Market but because of the Chinese goverment allowing capital and capitalists to develop its nation

>China's success is not due to capitalism but the government allowing capitalism to happen

This is a new level of semantics play.

>>94192

>muh debt

lol I love how autists on the right always obsess over national debt

here's a hint buddy: debt doesn't matter if you're a powerful country. You can keep printing money without the ill effect of either inflation or economic depression. Not convinced? Just look at the US right after the financial crisis when they generated money from thin air to rescue the banks, or modern day Japan which is the most indebted country in the world and is still functioning fine.

Debt is a spook. It doesn't matter and never has.

>>94193

>or modern day Japan which is the most indebted country in the world and is still functioning fine.

That's because most of Japans debt is owed to its own people, not other countries. The USA owes its people money too, that's what Social Security is, but retards seem to bundle it up with actual government expenditures.

Nat Cap mixed markets have always been superior.

Totalitarian societies display the efficiency of Keynesian models of central planning. Lots of cheap GDP with long term planning able to complete great projects. However, it's a forced authoritarian system that produces quantitative GDP over quality of life GDP.

>>93964

Chink companies are all White Label manufacturers rented out by western companies to produce a mass quota on the global market. All the designs, R&D, and specifications are produced either in the Asian Tiger capitalist nations, Japan, or the west. All the official exports meant for western markets are fine quality affordable goods. Western products have a huge protection tax to subsidize domestic industry and rapid production. Some off brand knockoffs are the equivalent tech made out of cheaper processes or materials. I've had good results with native Chinese exports. Most domestics and fakes are direct copies made with awful materials, poorly designed, and reluctant to correct anything that increases product costs.

The real estate market is hilariously inflated where it's illegal to burst. In all likelihood, the government will fail before a market crash is tolerated. Nail House construction of skeletal husts of substandard concrete and crap steel litter the countryside as government paid for housing projects. Most of them are crumbling and so poorly zoned it's laughable, but they'll never willingly tear them down because on paper the worthless chunks are what's backing most people's hyper-inflated investments. They'll just roll in the police, military, and enforce their market plans by gunpoint. They'll never fall so long as the west remains thirsty for their low cost output, and they'll keep their low cost output so long as they keep trade policies with the west that keeps them cheaper artificially. State Television is a rolling 5 year plan aimed at English speaking global investors while local media rips off western intellectual property.

Members of the revolutionary communist party are ridiculously wealthy even by American elitist standards, spoiled, and arrogant. Especially their kids.

It's a defunct, forced economy that gets shit done, and gradually creates somewhat of a skilled consumer middle class as if reluctant to increase labor costs. A true testament of what you can do with modern force economy when trading in bullets.

>>94196

> on paper the worthless chunks are what's backing most people's hyper-inflated investments.

Doesn't Chinese accounting list expenditures to acquire property but not losses in the market value?

>>94193

>Just look at the US right after the financial crisis when they generated money from thin air to rescue the banks

>what is the petrodollar

The US can partially get away with aggressive monetary expansion because a large number of foreign countries hold dollars, meaning much of the "new" money just goes to one of these countries instead of the domestic economy. Because the additional money isn't all present in the domestic economy, domestic prices don't rise as quickly. But they still rise, because this scheme doesn't remove inflation, it just delays its onset. And once countries start rejecting the petrodollar standard, and start selling off their dollar reserves, all of that deferred inflation is going to hit the economy all at once, and it won't be pretty. You haven't discoverer a magic bullet, it's just a Ponzi scheme, and your gullible ass has bought into it.

>Japan which is the most indebted country in the world and is still functioning fine.

>negative interest rates

>functioning fine

Wew.

>>94212

>Otherwise, you risk braindrain from people both escaping political persecution for wrong think

Nuh-uh, the commie says that's just MORALIZING and not an arbgumend XD, the complete lack of innovation in China is just a spook.

>>94194

The Yuan is worthless because the government is trying to keep it as low as possible so they can keep being the export powerhouse of the world. you tard. Even then after all their efforts the value of the Yuan is still rising.

>Anything above 100% means the federal government is bleeding money

Holy fuck this is just the dumbest statement I've ever seen. Take an econ class sometime.

>>94208

>You haven't discoverer a magic bullet, it's just a Ponzi scheme, and your gullible ass has bought into it.

That's all that matters, as long as people buy into it, and since the US is the premier world power everyone is forced to buy into it and if they try anything else then they get invaded and destroyed. Welcome to reality.

>>94212

> no one is going to want to live in some horrible souless corporate state that just generates capital and nothing else.

Democrats and Singaporeans disagree with you.

>>94229

>Holy fuck this is just the dumbest statement I've ever seen. Take an econ class sometime

Not an argument. You can't even explain why such a statement is dumb (when its actually true, inflation is effectively the same as bleeding dosh) so why should anyone actually listen to any of your ad hominem?

>The Yuan is worthless because the government is trying to keep it as low as possible so they can keep being the export powerhouse of the world.

That's not entirely incorrect but it's also not the whole story.

>>94231

>Governments borrowing money to invest in infrastructure or whatever is the same as them actually losing capital

I don't have to explain why this is a dumb statement because it's self-evident.

>>94232

Yes, yes it is. The government doesn't stop spending capital as it borrows more money

>>94229

>That's all that matters, as long as people buy into it, and since the US is the premier world power

>muh animal spirits

The essential nature of a Ponzi scheme is that it's unsustainable, regardless of belief. Systematic monetary inflation is no different, and will lead to an eventual crash of the system. Of course, that doesn't matter to high time-preference vermin such as yourself, because you get to live your life of hedonism today, and someone else's kids will pay for it tomorrow. And scum like you outnumber reasonable men, so we get high time-preference policies. Isn't democracy swell?

>>94230

>Democrats and Singaporeans disagree with you.

Singaporeans have a high quality of life and other reasons to live besides production of capital. Democrats on the other hand flee the effects of their policies in droves, moving from LA and San Francisco to Austin, Seattle, Portland, Boise, and other cities that haven't fallen plague to the same glut of taxes, regulation, and high cost of living of California. When they get there, they vote for the same policies that made California such a shithole, because Democrats are room temp IQ NPCs that can't connect cause and effect.

>>94233

>what are higher interest payments

>what are rising rates

>what is diminishing credit worthiness

For your sake I really hope you don't have any credit cards.

>>94164

>>94192

(Repost from the other China thread where you posted the same infograpths)

>Trading with other countries having Industry a improving HDI and having debt makes a nation inherently capitalist

Im not even arguing that China's economy is Socialist (It IS State-Capitalist) but to claim these things as inherent Markers of capitalism is dishonest as i can point you to all of these things occuring in socialist states aswell

>>94235

>Singaporeans have a high quality of life and other reasons to live besides production of capital.

And they have that without having a liberal society which was what >>94212 was trying to argue.

>>94236

>>94240

No one cares, Chinks. Tienanmen square, Winnie the Pooh, etc, etc.

>>94291

>Bubbles are inflation

That's not what inflation is you dumbass

>>94292

>CENTRAL BANKERS ARE LYING

cool where is your empirical evidence beyond ur feelz

Don't have any?

That's too bad.

>>94091

Again, you're really going hard on the no true scotsman for what "success" encompasses. You want to make the land, resources or per capita argument, then even the US quickly drops down the ranks, the countries that take the top for your new goalpost of "success" are suddenly insignificant low population third world backwaters, countries with natural monopolies on resources and much more authoritarian/less-libertine than the US. Commonly held second placers like the EU or Japan drop in like.

The crux of this thread is heavily based on the point in the original article. And that's that you expect a dictatorship and less free rights to correlate with a country crashing and burning, but that doesn't seem to be the case in reality. Authoritarian states like China are tweaking their economic systems little by little and continually getting better regardless.

>>94191

>Debt several times the size of their economy

>Currency near worthless

A trait of every single fiat economy,

>Virtually nonexistent stock market

A protectionist system that somehow still makes tons of income. You're putting the cart before the horse, if it's evident that a stock market isn't needed for economic success, it's existence literally doesn't matter

>GDP Per capita one of the lowest on Earth.

It's got a very solid GDP per capita, by no means faltering.

>Oh but their nominal GDP is second highest? Their country literally has roughly 4 times as many people as America, so relatively speaking that's awful. India is expected to overtake them in that regard and become the second largest economy by 2040 anyways.

India is literally shittier than China in every point you made above. Every prediction for the China bubble bursting in year XX has been equally dispelled as predictions for India becoming a developed country.

>And you know what? 'muh economy!' doesn't even matter past a certain point, in which it just becomes meaningless numbers.

Everything, literally everything has to do with economic prosperity. The entertainment you enjoy, the food you eat, all enabled by a good economy giving you buying power. Free time on the weekends to hang out, relax? All due to buying power letting you fulfil your desired level on Marslow's hierarchy and stopping work where you're comfortable. Safety, freedom, government largesse? Amenities conferred by a nation with prosperous economy and little to fear from revolt. You can bet when economic indicators go down, your life will get rough.

>For America to compete with China it would need to lower working wages to next to nothing.

This is false, labour rates are similar and subsidies, resource availability and dedicated manufacturing infrastructure is the main reason they maintain a cheaper edge. Are you a /pol/lack? You're pretty protectionist.

>China will never have a competent space program, they will never land a man on the moon,

Ironic considering they and India are the only ones still funding a serious space program. They're making breakthroughs in genetics, quantum computing, and material science. By no means are they not inspiring scientifically.

>>94212

>Yes, you need a free and liberal society. Otherwise, you risk braindrain from people both escaping political persecution for wrong think, or people who just want to leave because the country is so shit.

China has had a brain drain problem for years, but it's still climbing economically like a juggernaut. And this trend is now reversing. It turns out that when you wave a certain amount of salary in front of people, their freedoms and rights stop mattering to them and they become more receptive to the koolaid.

https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ljkelly/2018/01/25/how-china-is-winning-back-more-graduates-from-foreign-universities-than-ever-before/#53b935545c1e

>Happy late thanksgiving btw.

y-you too

>>94253

Pffff. Singapore is more authoritarian than some Chinese local governments.

>>94301

>>Bubbles are inflation

>That's not what inflation is you dumbass

>rising prices due to money creation from loans based on irrational optimism rather than fundamentals

>influx of cheap cash is not causing inflation

>>94309

>when you wave a certain amount of salary in front of people, their freedoms and rights stop mattering to them and they become more receptive to the koolaid

>freedom isn't important if you have money, never mind that freedom determines on how money can be used

You have to go back

>>94318

I'm only speaking facts. Most of the board believes in decisional autonomy when talking about the mutual benefit of transactions or monopoly control, pointing out how workers getting a smaller cut than owners are benefiting from the agreement overall or how no company can become an overzealous monopoly because they'd lose customers etc.

Now frame this on the voluntary choice of migration. If there are outright statistics showing that people are ceding their personal rights for monetary opportunities, what does that say about the necessity of these rights in the first place? Just as customers wouldn't buy unsanitary food from unscrupulous vendors unless the alternate is worse, why would they walk back to China, which is every bit less free than the US, unless it was a better transaction for them? It doesn't seem like principles, especially the higher order libertarian ones, are all that necessary for good livelihood for the average populace.

>>94332

> that people are ceding their personal rights for monetary opportunities, what does that say about the necessity of these rights in the first place?

There are no statistics showing this, because the people who receive monetary opportunities in China are the ones whose status allows them to ignore most of the restrictions on their behavior. The ones who don't have the status to circumvent those restrictions are fleeing in droves, hence the chink's brain drain problem.

>>94338

>There are no statistics showing this,

There are literally two links above that I sniped off a google search amongst dozens of articles independently reporting the fact. You may have the case that these stats report trends among the middle class who can afford abroad education, but that just backs my point. These people are able to voluntarily accept dictatorship and reduced freedom once they become middle class, which just proves that reaching a certain economic threshold is more important than individual liberty.