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/liberty/ - Liberty

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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 38899ce4bfc4ca7⋯.png (542.81 KB, 1223x822, 1223:822, 38899ce4bfc4ca7affabd60280….png)

 No.82250

What does /liberty/ think about this video?

https://youtu.be/HbjZlKqDCMA

Marxist economist and computer scientist Paul Cockshott (yes, yes, I know it's a funny name) talks about what a mode of production is in Marxist theory. The reason I want to share this here is because it's less so dealing with the Marxists concepts /liberty/ fundamentally disagrees with (class theory, exploitation, etc.) but more about the material basis of how a mode of production constitutes itself, and how forms of power transmission are fundamentally integrated in the stratification of capitalism and it's social relations.

I thought it's a pretty interesting take on things even for non-Marxists, so what do you think about it? What, in /liberty/'s opinion, does he get right, where do you disagree?

Pic unrelated, I just needed a picture

 No.82261

File: e50102a843d3c9a⋯.jpg (10.56 KB, 165x233, 165:233, 31641.jpg)

I think he needs to install gentoo.


 No.82264

File: d40b7199fd11478⋯.png (1.15 MB, 1024x1112, 128:139, lifetimeoftoil.png)

Paul "Traps are Gay" Cockshott needs to read Tiqqun tbh famfalam


 No.82269

>>82250

I couldn't make it past the first 15 seconds, because that quote by Marx immediately demonstrated the failed materialist teleolgy that underpins his theory.


 No.82274

File: a1365e2618e996e⋯.jpg (17.56 KB, 220x311, 220:311, 220px-Igor_Tamm.jpg)

>>82269

The eternal lolbert.


 No.82275

>>82274

If the central thesis of Marx's theory is faulty, then why should I spend time with 20 minutes of extrapolations?


 No.82277

>posting some noname marxist professor on /liberty/

Seriously?


 No.82278

>>82277

I think everyone here has heard of Paul Cockshott at this point.


 No.82279

>>82275

It's not faulty, though.


 No.82282

>>82279

Because it relies on a materialist teleology, if a single contrary example can be made against his theory, the entire thing can be discarded.


 No.82283

>>82282

There is nothing wrong with proof by counterexample.


 No.82284

>>82283

Look up what teleology means. Cockshott was actually nice enough to leave a reply to a comment of mine wherein he linked to an article of his reformulating historical materialism under a non-Hegelian methodology (which I still have yet to form an opinion on), but I'm still remiss to let Marx off the hook, as the bulk of his work is reliant on Hegel.


 No.82285

>>82284

Look up proof by counterexample, it has nothing to do with materialism.


 No.82293

>>82285

You're right, it has nothing to do with materialism and everything to do with teleology.


 No.82294

>>82269

>>82275

>>82278

>>82282

>>82284

Sorry, I couldn't make it past your first post because it immediately demonstrated that you're an autistic faggot that can only discuss ideas you personally agree with.


 No.82301

>>82294

Cool ressentiment.


 No.82303

File: e6cea0ae598811c⋯.jpg (30.75 KB, 500x500, 1:1, DbJ_KdYU0AEzQ56.jpg)


 No.82321

File: d9649e2d9600d8a⋯.jpg (127.71 KB, 1400x656, 175:82, .jpg)

>>82250

>Marxist

>economist


 No.82322

>>82269

>>82275

You have not demonstrated as to why the Marxist thesis of material basis and superstructure is faulty, nor have you brought up any arguments, in fact, you have only insulted/smeared apporaches you personally disagree with.


 No.82323

>>82321

His work on computerized economic planning is quite good.


 No.82324

>>82322

How many times a week do we get a new thread from some smartass leftard that we have to argue with? This is a chore, it's much easier to tell you to fuck off.


 No.82345

>>82322

Can you demonstrate the telos of every material relation consistently? Even Cockshott abandoned this methodology.


 No.82347

>>82324

I didn't come here to have some autistic greentext debate, I just thought it was an interesting video and I was interested in /liberty/'s take on it. Do you think something is automatically bad/satanic because it's from a Marxist?


 No.82350

>>82347

I mean, we could go through our disagreements with the rest of the video, but were you honestly expecting any of us to be approbatory of its content?


 No.82351

>>82347

>I didn't come here to have some autistic greentext debate

And I don't come here to entertain Marxists.

>Do you think something is automatically bad/satanic because it's from a Marxist?

Precisely.


 No.82359

>>82345

>Even Cockshott abandoned this methodology.

>responds to video made by Cockshott

>criticizes something Cockshott doesn't even argue

Stop shitting up the board with your autism, nigger.

I swear to god, sometimes I'm tempted to LARP as an Austrian simply to make you niggers look less retarded.


 No.82373

>>82282

>materialist teleology

what is teleological about what Marx said? There is no reason to interpret it as inevitable determinism, but as a preface for possible predictions. And there is literally nothing false in what he said; material conditions predicate social life.

>>82282

>if a single contrary example can be made against his theory

Well is there?


 No.83225

>>82269

I'm sorry to bump this, but I'd legitimately like to get an answer. Why do you think that the real, material base of the human condition not cause the various legal, political and cultural superstructures of human consciousness? The idea that "great man" or "ideas" shape and bend the world seems awfully idealistic.


 No.83226

>>83225

muh property rights

marx stoopid

fiat curenzy causes da bizness cycle


 No.83235

>>82359

Cockshott still accepts the premise of historical determinism in his analysis, so the onus is on him to demonstrate how this is methodologically consistent without using Marx's teleology.

>>82373

>"In the social production of their life, men enter into definite relations that are indispensable and independent of their will, relations of production which correspond to a definite stage of development of their material productive forces. The sum total of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which rises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness. The mode of production of material life conditions the social, political and intellectual life process in general. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness."-Marx

Sounds like textbook determinism to me. Marx uses Hegel's dialectical methodology for his analysis, albeit with a materialist bent. However, there is still an inherent teleology to employing a dialectical method. If you want a counterexample to Marx's historical determinism, there are many. One that I like to use, and many other non-Marxist historians have pointed, is that of the atypical way in which Germany transitioned from feudalism to an industrialized society, which runs contrary to the synthetical predictions that Marx employed when analyzing Great Britain and other Western European societies.




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