/liberty/ - Liberty

key concept is the thing you cannot own thing if you dont use it

i think

>>81878

Jokes on them, I use all my property to exploit the workers all the time. Very useful.

>>81876

Every worker owns his mean of production and is independant, can make his business, workers can freely cooperate (autogested companies), without hierarchy.

>>81916

The workers own their means of production, not the exploiters

They realize that private property is bullshit but are afraid to follow that to its logical conclusion.

>>81980

>The workers own their means of production,

I am a worker using my capital to farm the peasants.

They are the "le radical centrist" of anarchy

>>82011

t. Leftypol beta white boi

It's AnCap with yellow flags. Utopian. The laws of capital won't change just because now everybody is a shareholder lmao

>>82027

Which is why democracy and communism are doomed to fail.

>>82032

Communism transcends democracy just like you guys want to transcend it (abolishing the tyranny of the majority). Except you somehow think you can contain the common mode of our existence into this new society, when in reality, capitalism has emerged with the state and is inseparable from it. You need to radically overthrow the conditions of our existence to usher in this new era, which is also something you don't want.

>>82033

Why do you think everyone here is an AnCap lol? Talking to a wall mate.

>Communism transcends democracy

When its a dictatorship

It's pretty much anarcho-capitalism but they don't believe in interest on loans, private fractional-reserve banking, and in some cases renting.

>>82112

Some of them like Spooner are okay with interest, but at that point they're basically ancaps that have an autistic fascination with self employment and co-ops.

>>82116

will they initiate agression against me if i do interest?

>>82033

>capitalism has emerged with the state and is inseparable from it

You want to be taken seriously, but you make it impossible. Why you gotta be like that?

>>82249

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

I guess it all comes down to how a state is defined. I mean, do you argue that the feudal state, which is really just a conglomeration of tenure relations between land owners, is a modern state? Clearly not. State institutions such as the police, a standing army, formal institutions and ministries, bureaucracy, rule of law, etc. - this all came about with capitalism because the changing social relations of capitalism (which aren't mere feudal tenure relations over land anymore) require a different structure to uphold them.

This isn't very controversial.

>>82112

fuck off you lying piece of shit

>>82266

Post a mutualist quote proving me wrong, faggot. Even fucking Syndicalists have more in common with AnCaps than they do with "An"Coms/AnSocs when you look at their actual policies.

>>82266

I notice that leftypol never actually has arguments. Just insults and screams. This is ML in practice I guess.

>>82311

It's funny how you'd put the "An" in AnCom into quotation marks when it was in fact the original anarchist tendency and Americans Libertarianism hijacked the term.

>>82346

Individualist/egoist anarchism predates Bakunin.

>>82348

And neither of that respected private property as a right

>>82388

"Muh Spook!" he screams as the state executes him.

>>82400

A guillotine is not a spook. Private property Is.

>>82401

a guillotine is an execution tool, not a soldiers gun or anything to defend yourself it is useful for executions AKA lawful killings

essentially its use makes you a state by definition, any organization that uses one for its intended purpose is a state by definition

you are not an anarchist, you are a statist, deal with it

egoism is basically ancapism on steroids and its the farthest you can get from communism

>>82401

>LAWS ARE A SPOOK MAN

<Steals shit

<Cop sees you

>HEY SPOOK PATROL

<Gets executed

>>82403

I'm not an anarchist, but if you think Stirner is pro-capitalist, you need to read his book.

>>82405

>defending cops

>on a libertarian board

>>82410

>you need to read his book.

LOL. The book is literally titled "A man and his property".

>but if you think Stirner is pro-capitalist,

Stirner is against letting supposed property rights restrain you. Thats not the same fucking thing as defended property being a spook.

>defending cops

Not cops dear lad, contracted security personal.

>>82412

fucking auto correct *personnel

>>82410

I didnt say he was pro-capitalist I said egoist

to simplify it on the level of memes since you are a statist

this is an ancap (raises black and yellow flag)

this is an ancap beyond ancap (becomes agorist)

and this…THIS IS TO GO EVEN FURTHER BEYOND

HAAAAAAAAAAAA

(disregards laws and acts selfishly, throwing away concepts that do not help him as "spooks" and ignoring them)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

(achieves egoism)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

(surpasses even gohan blanco and gohan calvo)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

(becomes stirner himself)

>>82401

>A guillotine is not a spook. Private property Is.

Said a strange mentally ill man as he was shot for attempting to rob Murray's vehicle at approximately 6 in the morning. More at 8!

>>82346

> anarchist tendency

That doesn't really make "anarcho" communism correct in being called an anarchist ideology, This is a very basic genetic fallacy, c'mon anon.

>>82346

The first anarchists were classical liberals like William Godwin. Proudhon was a hybrid between classical liberal and socialist. We have every bit the same claim to "anarchism" as leftarchists, if not more.

>>82782

You can't even quite keep a credible claim to being a liberal, these days.

>>81980

>without hierarchy.

Spotted the flaw.

>>82027

>communist calling something utopian

Nigger the term "utopian" was designed to describe socialist systems in 1832.

>>82251

>feudal state

>really just a conglomeration of tenure relations between land owners

In the same way that socialism is just sharing your toys like your mama told you to.

He was laughing at you because states predate capitalism, and when capitalism came about the power of states was significantly diminished.

>>82797

>Nigger the term "utopian" was designed to describe socialist systems in 1832.

There were no "socialist systems" in 1832 and the term "utopian socialism" was coined by Marx to criticize Saint-Simon, Owen's, etc. utopian sketches of socialism ignoring the material conditions. There is a difference between utopian socialism and scientific socialism.

>In the same way that socialism is just sharing your toys like your mama told you to

Is that supposed to be an argument?

>He was laughing at you because states predate capitalism, and when capitalism came about the power of states was significantly diminished.

Imagine being this historically illiterate. Pre-capitalist statecraft wasn't even institutionalized. The police force, the army and the bureaucracy as we know it coincide with the birth of capitalism. There is a reason historians call the feudal state Personenverbandsstaat which is completely different from the capitalist state.

>>82816

>The police force, the army and the bureaucracy as we know it coincide with the birth of capitalism.

Institutional military orders existed in feudal societies. China was renown for their bureaucratic system, so much so that they maintained it even under Manchu and Mongol control. Perhaps you are thinking of the prominence of these during mercantilist Europe?

>>82816

>marxism is da reel socialism

Socialism was started by Rousseau and first implemented in the French revolution. The term "utopian", as in someone who believes in utopia, was first used to describe Rousseau and his socialist beliefs.

The fact that Marx, another utopian, used it to slander his ideological competitors is beside the point.

>ignoring the material conditions

Which Marx and modern "scientific socialists" do nonstop.

>Is that supposed to be an argument?

I don't know is your bullshit interpretation of feudalism supposed to be one?

>The police force, the army and the bureaucracy as we know it coincide with the birth of capitalism.

There are societies before the invention of the written word that have had a police force, army and a bureaucracy as we know it. Capitalism was developed as an offshoot of Mercantilism, ergo it's only a few hundred years old, not much older than socialism itself in fact. So you're more than ten thousand years off… Mr. Historical Literacy.

>Socialism was started by Rousseau and first implemented in the French revolution.

The Diggers or the Essenes might have something to say about that.

Thanks for standing up to ML-centrism, though. Almost all real left history occurs before Marx and ends before him. Not with him, before him…

>a few hundred years old, not much older than socialism

The Diggers or the Essenes might have something to say about that. ;)

>>83122

To be fair, everyone was doing that in that era… but yes, it is dumbfuckery.

Also, 0/10 for unfamiliarity with sparrow memes.

>>83122

You can't argue with science.

Communism is inevitable.

>>82027

>ancap

>is against private property, rent, hierarchy and wage labor

>>83695

You should read more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory)

>>83802

>not the sort of market controls usually desired by AnCaps in order to engineer a monopoly for themselves

lolwut ancaps do not want any market controls

>>83804

Then where exactly on the party bus am I supposed to sit?

>>83804

this bit here is probably the relevant bit

>thus advocating personal property, but not private property.

In an ideal world I'd be an AnCap, but I don't agree with AnCap jew magic where they invent a debt, or conspire to fix prices, or speculate on food prices and then call the resulting mass starvation "the best way for the market to correct itself". This is some quackery bullshit that I don't expect people to sit through.

>>83806

>invent a debt

Is there no credit systems in mutualism?

>conspire to fix prices

Competition prevents this from happening long-term.

>speculate on food prices and then call the resulting mass starvation

How does speculation cause mass starvation? Any examples?

>>83807

>Is there no credit systems in mutualism?

charging rent and interest are both frowned upon, but I don't believe proudhon insisted they need to be prohibited outright. I'm not sure what he intended tbh. My views are similar. Not keen on rent for land you don't personally use.

>Competition prevents this from happening long-term

I don't believe scientific industries generate sufficient competition. Because things are not primordial any more, but have coagulated (naturally) into a central mass. It's like trying to build a train when you have to compete with Japan's pre-existing 300kmh behemoths. There won't be many takers willing to even have a go. The few companies that do are in a position to do some market conspiring. They don't face much competition outside the loop.

>How does speculation cause mass starvation? Any examples?

17th-18th century grain hoarding/speculating, Shakespeare allegedly did it

>>83811

That speculation actually did not cause starvation. By hoarding grain, it postponed the sale of wheat to a time of greater need prior to harvest when the grain fetches a higher price. A Random Walk Through Wall Street covers this in the Chicago futures market.