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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

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 No.81446

Can we have a Russia hate thread?

I miss the days when being right meant hating Ruskies. And i'm sick of aut-right koksukerniks for Putin on every other board.

 No.81447

"fcuk russian"

- Ludwig von Mises, Human Action p. 54


 No.81448

>>81446

Well, problem is we all hated Russia for its communism, never really for anything else.

>>81447

Wasn't that from Omnipotent Government? Fun read.


 No.81450

>>81446

Well, problem is we all hated Russia for its communism, never really for anything else.

>>81447

Wasn't that from Omnipotent Government? Fun read.


 No.81457

File: a79de2d5aad2965⋯.jpg (49.2 KB, 640x475, 128:95, Nicholas I.jpg)

>>81448

Well to be fair, Russia had a long history of imperialism long before the Soviet Union. That's not to say that it's reason to hate the Russian people themselves, but what we saw in the USSR was something just barely more noisy than what already existed on the Eastern front. Well, that and more prone to mass genocide.


 No.81460

>>81446

>hate russia

>hate putin

Pick one, faggot.


 No.81461

>>81457

Tsarist Russia was getting to be pretty liberal (in the traditional sense) before the revolution though. The press was unrestricted, even Bolsheviks and others speaking out against the Tsar were allowed. They had a pariliamentary system in the Duma Yes, I know democracy a shit but it is a check on the supposed absolute rule of the Tsar., with multiple parties including Bolsheviks. Before the revolution Russia was the fastest-industrializing nation in the world. If the damn commies hadn't taken over that liberalization trend would have continued. Russia could have become a bastion of free enterprise, a foil for the intense damage caused by Wilson and Roosevelt's idiotic, anti-market policies. This is truly the worst timeline.


 No.81463

>>81460

Why not both?


 No.81464

>>81461

>Tsarist Russia was getting to be pretty liberal

>The press was unrestricted, even Bolsheviks and others speaking out against the Tsar were allowed.

This is where they fucked up. They should have physically removed the communists from the property of the king.


 No.81465

>>81464

I don't disagree there in the slightest. I was just pointing out that saying Russia is inherently Imperialist isn't at all correct, and that the Bolshevik totalitarianism was in fact and immense step backwards and not the continuation of a general trend.


 No.81467

>>81461

You make it sound like it was voluntary. Some liberalization happened because the Tsar was forced to make concessions to the revolting masses. Russia wasn't heading toward some free market utopia, it was heading towards a revolution and the little liberalisation that happened was a desperate attempt by the Tsar to regain some of his power by betting on the support of the more liberal elements of the empire.

And you were certainly not allowed to speak out against the Tsar, many people were imprisoned and exiled for calling for an end of his rule.


 No.81468

>>81464

They did, Lenin and many other dissidents could only return from exile after the Tsar was ousted.


 No.81469

>>81465

Don't be ridiculous, even at its worst the Bolshevik rule was merely a continuation of the Tsarist practices. Between the two there was the provisional government which was indeed close to the conditions you describe but that was after the Tsar was already ousted.


 No.81470

>>81469

>Don't be ridiculous, even at its worst the Bolshevik rule was merely a continuation of the Tsarist practices.

Wew, you really have no fucking idea what you're talking about, do you?


 No.81471

>>81468

Oh right, I almost forgot about that. Wasn't Lenin smuggled back in by the Germans during WWI to cause political instability?


 No.81472

>>81470

read a history book


 No.81473

File: 2a39826f38ac8c1⋯.jpg (9.14 KB, 300x200, 3:2, 2a39826f38ac8c151dc5147ccc….jpg)

>>81472

>read a history book


 No.81474

>>81471

He wasn't smuggled back, he was allowed to travel through Germany to Sweden, from there he could freely enter Russia as during the February Revolution the Tsar was already ousted (although he was still alive).


 No.81484

I just can't bring myself to hate Russia that much when they're no worse than the USA, and in many cases more socially conservative/religiously inclined. They're a statist shithole, but they're at least a statist shithole that conforms somewhat to my moral/social beliefs.


 No.81496

>>81484

Christcucks confirmed fake libertarians.


 No.81497

yeah, no, the Czars will rise again


 No.81498

>>81496

nice meme


 No.81507

File: 288242c1ee4acbc⋯.jpg (80.22 KB, 720x579, 240:193, 288242c1ee4acbc83c0b960f74….jpg)

>>81467

It is a bastion of free market just after the collapse or the Soviet union for about 2 decades. You got your wish and they suffered for it.


 No.81509

>>81507

>commies killing people like a bunch of wild animals

Леваки… леваки невер чейндж.


 No.81510

>>81509

>невер чейндж

Why must you butcher the language like this?


 No.81511

File: dc92e01b05370a1⋯.jpg (65.56 KB, 581x423, 581:423, pic_B_L_Black Hundreds ral….jpg)

>>81509

т. люзер


 No.81516

File: 3d1898799033b50⋯.jpg (7.55 KB, 231x250, 231:250, get gay.jpg)

>>81507

> modern Russia

> Free market bastion

That's not correct… I mean it's far more functional than the Soviet Union ever was, but to call it a free market "bastion" is just flat out incorrect.

>You got your wish and they suffered for it.

What the hell are you even referencing? Has there been a mass famine yet? Are the super markets suddenly unable to serve food? Are the people being sent to work camps for having what can be deemed to be "politically incorrect" opinions? Oh wait, no that happened under the USSR, and Russia is actually a somewhat functional country now, almost like the rest of Europe except with a lot of the Bureaucratic corruption from the old USSR days still present and slowing things down… Clearly the free market's the problem here


 No.81518

>>81511

>т. люзер

wow BTFO

>>81510

It's quoting Fallout.

>war… war never changes.


 No.81519

File: bbc2cc7e4a2d3ed⋯.png (312.25 KB, 582x586, 291:293, ClipboardImage.png)

>>81516

Modern-day Russian socialists are some of the most toxic scum on the planet, calling them animals is actually an insult to real animals. Not only are they completely morally bankrupt degenerates that even leftypol and their worst trannies can't contend with (Sorry christfag, but you're exaggerating, most people in Russia are not church-going traditionalist model citizens for the west to look up to, poverty breeds degeneracy), but you'd also think that they learned something from the past 100 years of horrors that happened in our country as a result of socialism and collectivization.

Pic related, this is the same "gotcha!" that they post in every single ancap thread, sometimes even twice, thinking they figured us all out and destroyed our whole ideology with their stupid meme, by this "argument" you can gauge the level of IQ they have. They also completely unironically think you can "uplift" a nation by printing money and handing it out for free because "that's what they do in 'holy' Europe".


 No.81523

>>81519

>Go to edit image

>Image is so low-quality I can't swap colors

>Too lazy to use proper image editing right now

Fuck.


 No.81525

File: b69d9ed7b093b1d⋯.png (193.37 KB, 522x510, 87:85, Untitled.png)

>>81523

Did you want something like this?

That'll be $4.99 btw.


 No.81530

>>81446

Why, have you been brainwashed by neocons?


 No.81531

>>81518

>It's quoting Fallout.

<war… war never changes.

I know what it's paraphrasing (what it actually says is "leftists…leftists never change."). What triggers me is that the first word is in actual Russian and the latter two are just the English words written with the Cyrillic alphabet.

>>81519

>Modern-day Russian socialists are some of the most toxic scum on the planet…

Sure, but how common are the socialists compared to human beings living in Russia? They might have a presence among the young people (seeing as they call Europe 'holy' I'm assuming they're on the younger side), but that's not the same as the whole population.

>poverty breeds degeneracy

Eh, I'm not so certain. Welfare may well encourage that, but I wouldn't call it a universal trait among the poor. "Degeneracy breeds poverty" may be more accurate.


 No.81532

>>81516

>Are the super markets suddenly unable to serve food?

Yes? That's exactly what happened during the 90s. And it was Putin who choked the oligarchs that got rich off of the privatization.

> the Bureaucratic corruption from the old USSR days

Which was from the old Empire days…

Why does /liberty/ whine about the USSR? Almost every single older person I talk to says it was better then than now. Life there was pretty decent, sure, depending on the place you didn't have all the variety of products (the scarcity was only during the 80s) but you didn't have to worry about more dire things in life like health, education, etc. Your portrayal of it as some hellscape open-prison is years of propaganda.

>>81519

Так где жи ты стоищ? Анархо-лолберт утопист или чо?


 No.81536

File: b69167c92f11f55⋯.png (201.06 KB, 522x510, 87:85, b69d9ed7b093b1dc22b70a13d6….png)


 No.81541

File: 82dcb561ff4aa88⋯.gif (785.68 KB, 500x281, 500:281, kurumi.gif)


 No.81560

File: ef1d9885ad302d9⋯.jpg (102.85 KB, 504x478, 252:239, lel.jpg)

File: 33b53a0cbb45a9b⋯.mp4 (6.46 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, Putin Soviet joke.mp4)

>>81532

>Yes? That's exactly what happened during the 90s.

That'd been what had been happening long before the 1990s, I don't doubt that the Russian economy wasn't perfect in the 1990s, but you can thank the massive amount of inflation from Russia's central bank as well as the mass corruption (which again, was there since the USSR). It doesn't help that the country was a whole was trying to progress from a centrally planned economy to a market one virtually overnight.

> And it was Putin who choked the oligarchs that got rich off of the privatization.

> Privatization

Former Soviet officials selling or lending factories and assets to mobs and well known criminal groups is hardly "privatization" anymore so than the CIA lending firearms to the drug cartels is a "private transaction".

>Which was from the old Empire days…

The old empire owned all the factories, the "means of production" and had entire bureaus dedicated to managing these things? I don't know how on earth you can claim that the mass bureaucracy came from the empire when the Soviet Union was well known for it's beyond ridiculous expansion of government agencies. For fuck's sake even Putin was making jokes about the fucking thing.

>Almost every single older person I talk to says it was better then than now.

Ever heard of rosy retrospection? The vast majority of old people talk about how great it was when they were younger, boomers who grew in the US talk about how great it was, Germans who grew up under Hitler usually talk about how great it was, etc etc. Old people talking about "how great things were in my day" isn't actually a valid historical proof of anything, especially when A.) There is a psychological factor that causes people to look back at their youth with fondness (unless conditions are extremely severe) and B.) You realize I can also just pop up another group of old people who can talk about how miserable it was under the Soviet Union, right? Especially Eastern Germans or Polish people who would love to disagree with your narrative of "life was great!" It would just be a back and forth that would produce nothing conducive. What we can do is analyze the economy of the Soviet Union, and along with that the surrounding historical events that occurred, such as the mass famines, genocides, repression, repeated invasion and plunder of various countries (Such as Poland, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, the list goes on really) and we can ultimately conclude (along with it's rather low standard of living and mass corruption, political scandals, the attempted copying of numerous Capitalist inventions which absolutely sucked ass, etc, that it was not exactly the best state of affairs. I mean these are all empirical things we can look at, hell just look at a comparison of Western Germany with it's counter part and it's night vs day.

> (the scarcity was only during the 80s)

That's just not correct, again, this wasn't the first incident of "scarcity", one can look towards the numerous famines that happened during the Soviet Union's reign.

>Your portrayal of it as some hellscape open-prison is years of propaganda.

What exactly did I say in the post that was wrong?

>Has there been a mass famine yet?

Holodomor, the early 1920 famines caused by policies such as "war communism" (which made an already bad situation much worse, the 1947 famines, all of which on average killed millions.

> Are the super markets suddenly unable to serve food?

Long lines were a characteristic of the Soviet Union and of course there were just all the plain shortages in the 1970s and 80s. Hell. Poland sought to use groups such as "Solidarity" as a means to break away from the Soviet Union because it was just absolutely failing on all fronts.

>Are the people being sent to work camps for having what can be deemed to be "politically incorrect" opinions?

Are you telling me that gulags didn't exist and that you couldn't be thrown in there for having an opinion that the administration deemed to be wrong? That people didn't die in these camps either?


 No.81601

File: 3bad51cc367d37b⋯.jpg (100.89 KB, 960x684, 80:57, chartoftheday_7322_25_year….jpg)

File: 45d78cb1e4cd2eb⋯.png (9.38 KB, 291x268, 291:268, Anniv-of-Fall-of-Soviet-Un….png)

>>81560

>Former Soviet officials selling or lending factories and assets to mobs and well known criminal groups is hardly "privatization" anymore so than the CIA lending firearms to the drug cartels is a "private transaction".

So it's not privatization because the "bad" guys get the share of the pie? Is this the "crony" capitalism argument?

>The old empire owned all the factories, the "means of production" and had entire bureaus dedicated to managing these things?

No, but it had cumbersome processes and . And it was the old empire officials that Lenin had to take back so they could help run the country after the bolshevik failure during the late '10s

>rosy retrospection

What lame psychologizing. Yes, of course, so they're just "tricked" into thinking it was good. They had the 90s and 2000s to compare it, and even after 25 years in 2015 the answer is still definitively positive towards the USSR. This is what I'm talking about when I say that you're dozing off of propaganda, is there a single thing that could convince you otherwise? Apparently people actually living there isn't good enough. You can't even comprehend that it wasn't that terrible, in fact, not just "not terrible" but quite decent. And it isn't just anecdotal evidence, you can find the same things reflected in statistics.

>That's just not correct, again, this wasn't the first incident of "scarcity", one can look towards the numerous famines that happened during the Soviet Union's reign.

I should have been specific. I meant after WWII there was no scarcity of goods bar during the 80s and 90s.

I've already said I should have been specific about the scarcity, however

>Holodomor

Famines happened, but this word implies there was a genocide; Ukrainian propaganda. Besides if Stalin or his cadre wanted to genocide they'd just do it instead of collecting grain (they did it to Tatars).

>Long lines were a characteristic of the Soviet Union

That's true but it depended where, in central cities there weren't shortages. Regardless you'd still have food whether or not you had to stand in a line.

>1970

Never heard of shortages during that or any decade before 1980.

>Are you telling me that gulags didn't exist and that you couldn't be thrown in there for having an opinion that the administration deemed to be wrong?

Notice that I didn't say anything about gulags or political opinions. No I'm not denying it, but besides not being able to criticize the party it wasn't as bad as it's portrayed.


 No.81602

Russia is ok, but Putin is a fag


 No.81603

>>81602

Putin is my sex slave.


 No.81605

File: 1b54ece57ba3987⋯.png (51.76 KB, 591x630, 197:210, .png)

>>81532

>Putin who choked the oligarchs that got rich off of the privatization

Привет, лахтодырка.


 No.81606

>>81605

Но конечно, положил своих.

>лахтодырка

К сожалению, товарищ, я не бродю по русскому интернету, так что не знаю эту эпичную мэму.


 No.81610

>>81536

The one on the right said that right? Dispite him being poor himself.

3/10 made me chuckle.


 No.81629

>>81610

The one on the left. Hence the hand expression. Also, ancoms tend to want to kill people unlike ancaps.


 No.81631

File: d67a3c8a1491a89⋯.gif (1.67 MB, 328x212, 82:53, just kill me.gif)

>>81601

>So it's not privatization because the "bad" guys get the share of the pie? Is this the "crony" capitalism argument?

If theft is suddenly capitalism then ultimately so is Communism. Unfortunately, capitalism is about private property rights and consequentially the voluntary associations that happen as a result of them (Trade, ownership, etc) whereas the state is about compulsory action (which is to say force). When the government takes resources (not gained peacefully) and gives it to various mobs and especially (and mainly) people who were already related to the previous government (Nomenklatures comes to mind) then there's very little to say about this being "privatized".

>. And it was the old empire officials that Lenin had to take back so they could help run the country after the bolshevik failure during the late '10s

Two things wrong with these propositions, A.) sure it had cumbersome processes, but it wasn't nearly to the level that the Soviet Union expanded it to and B.)

> And it was the old empire officials that Lenin had to take back so they could help run the country after the bolshevik failure during the late '10s

What's your source for this exactly? As far as I understand it, most old empire officials (the ones that mattered that is) either fought against Lenin in the white armies that rose up to try and suppress the Bolsheviks or ultimately became refugees and ran to places such as the UK. If you have evidence for this, do show me.

>What lame psychologizing. Yes, of course, so they're just "tricked" into thinking it was good.

If you're going to try and argue against somebody, at least try to understand what "rosy retrospection" is. It's not that they were tricked, it's that it's a natural psychological phenomenon in which people remember the past fondly whether or not it was actually good. No one tricked anyone and yet here you are speaking nonsense. Again, a good number of people who lived under Hitler also speak about how great it was, same with the people who lived under Franco, etc etc. This means nothing and once again, I can always just bring up accounts of people talking about how bad it was, this does not account for an actual argument.

>Famines happened, but this word implies there was a genocide, Ukrainian propaganda.

Calling things you don't like "propaganda", doesn't actually debunk the notion that it was a genocide whatsoever. The Soviet Union stole and seized food from Ukrainian farmers and peasants leading them to eat anything they can, from dogs to horses and even that wasn't enough to prevent them from dying in the number of a few million.

Stealing food from a large population of peasants who usually rely on that food simply to survive is quite frankly genocide, not a lot of ways around that.

>Never heard of shortages during that or any decade before 1980.

During the 1970s there was a big shortage of food mainly in places such as Poland and East Germany (I can't speak much for mainland Russia, but I suppose the 80s shortage was probably when it hit the mainland). This shortage of food and ultimately the subsequent rise in the price of food (while wages stagnated) caused riots, most notably the July 1976 riots, which as I mentioned, gave rise to the Polish group known as "solidarity".

>That's true but it depended where, in central cities there weren't shortages

That is until people actually came from around the country to the central cities in which case, the shortages came. Bread became scarce to the point where the Kremlin wanted the population to conserve bread for fuck's sake. Hell I'd argue that this migration of "shoppers" was part of the reason that the 1980s shortages were as bad as they were.

>No I'm not denying it, but besides not being able to criticize the party it wasn't as bad as it's portrayed.

> Not having the freedom to question those who have power over you isn't that bad

This is levels of state cuckery that shouldn't even be possible


 No.81634

>>81531

>the first word is in actual Russian and the latter two are just the English words written with the Cyrillic alphabet.

That's the point, because if you say it ин Инглиш then the tone isn't so dramatic and serious and unfunny.

>how common are the socialists compared to human beings living in Russia?

Hmm… I don't know how I could give a proper answer to this, at least half of everyone who is politically active is just a normie Keynesian or a socdem if in college and the other half is made up of various different factions. The ideological anarcho-socialists are pretty rare in real life but you see them everywhere on the internet, some even managed to crawl into this thread. They're not just kids, unfortunately.

The thing is, you will get confused if you think about Russian politics the way you view western politics as a left vs right battle, it just doesn't work that way because both the left and the right don't have any power right now. In Russian politics it's a libertarian vs authoritarian battle where you have authoritarian (pro-government) leftists and rightists united against libertarian (anti-government) leftists and rightists, so there's no point in wasting energy fighting leftists when they won't have any power anyway even if everyone became a leftist. Viewing things in a left vs right sort of way is why everyone in the west doesn't know what to think about the Russian government which is both left-wing and right-wing at the same time, they just assume that Russia is good because when there's so much obvious anti-Russian propaganda from their own leftist government (and no one wants to be a victim of propaganda) reverse-psychology happens and instead of hating Russia, people become more open to it, not realizing that they've been memed into a false-dichotomy.

>>poverty breeds degeneracy

It certainly does. It's one thing to be temporarily poor, but when people become convinced that it's impossible to achieve long-term happiness, they start seeking more extreme forms of instant gratification just to escape the daily hell, and this leads to people turning into degenerate animals and anarcho-communists. Watch the mouse utopia.


 No.81635

File: 881c86a8bedc1fd⋯.png (33.46 KB, 773x532, 773:532, 1484061508836.png)

>>81532

>Так где жи ты стоищ? Анархо-лолберт утопист или чо?

>жи

>стоищ

>чо

Сложно догадаться, чмоня?


 No.81640

File: 8ad01b1cb87fcd7⋯.jpg (346.29 KB, 1139x582, 1139:582, ancap altright jew kike.jpg)

File: 9e4bee9e4ca055b⋯.png (112.36 KB, 1981x861, 283:123, ancap amerimutt.png)

File: 2f350d85e0b669f⋯.jpg (42.18 KB, 300x766, 150:383, my face my soul ancap 2.jpg)

File: b0184058dd1c0d6⋯.png (27.63 KB, 582x481, 582:481, ancap my face my soul heli….png)

>>81635

So, a fascist?


 No.81642

File: 50abb45958de93e⋯.png (268.6 KB, 567x425, 567:425, b0e92ff884e2e9cd4f4de46cf8….png)

>>81629

Despite evidence to the contrary. Remember that post last month when that lolbert posted a gif of a Japanese Communist Party member debating getting bayoneted by a Imperialist threatening violence on that libsoc poster? I'd say that's just cause for retaliatory violence.


 No.81659

>>81642

Commies are bloodthirsty monsters that always find some pretext for violence.


 No.81661

>>81642

Inejiro Asanuma was the leader of the Japan Socialist Party, he wasn't a communist, he just good relations with the Chinese Communist Party.


 No.81685

>>81659

Moving the goal posts.

>>81661

Thanks, I don't know much about them.


 No.81709

>>81642

Could you provide a link?




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