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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 69d2727f81144a0⋯.jpg (85.02 KB, 767x881, 767:881, its for the common good.jpg)

 No.80720

What do you guys see as the fastest (within our lifetimes) and most feasible way to freedom?

 No.80722

suicide

It's the only truly free choice you will ever make.


 No.80723

The Floating Island Project says they want to have a floating community set up by 2020

https://www.seasteading.org/floating-city-project/

Of course if guns are banned any time before then, the entire land of Dixie will be converted to a libertarian paradise.


 No.80724

>>80720

The only way to ensure freedom is to completely resolve the class antagonisms within society by transcending capitalism via communist revolution.

Statism is inherent to capitalism, since private property literally cannot exist without a (supposed) third party to resolve disputes over property rights.


 No.80726

>>80724

Every time you post I grow more fascist.


 No.80727

>>80726

You were always a fascist, which is why you can't get hard without a boot on your neck.


 No.80729

File: f2a4209932629e6⋯.jpg (140.19 KB, 924x529, 924:529, get the fuck out.jpg)


 No.80734

Go live in the woods or something. No one wants you around anyways.


 No.80738

>>80724

Third parties will always be required to solve disputes. Is it your contention than banning private property, if even possible, would solve that issue? Or do you only care about property disputes? What is the difference between these and and any other kind of dispute?

Most communists propose empowering a third party, often a democratically elected government, to take control of the means of production in the name of the workers. Do you agree? If so, how is this not equivalent to using a third party to solve a property dispute?

Anarcho-capitalists believe a non-centralised, non-monopolistic dispute resolution system would function better than the state.

>>80727

Spare us the drama.

>>80720

Technology. IP is obsolete because of torrenting, espionage has been made virtually impossible by cryptography and fiat currency (and therefore taxation) will soon be made irrelevant by cryptocurrency. Cody Wilson has also shown the pointlessness in gun control 3d printing will bring about by printing a gun.


 No.80742

>>80738

>Most communists propose empowering a third party, often a democratically elected government, to take control of the means of production in the name of the workers. Do you agree? If so, how is this not equivalent to using a third party to solve a property dispute?

I do agree, and it is the same. We communists see the state as a tool of class oppression and we will use it to oppress the capitalist class for the advancement of a globally classless society free of exploitation. A singlular or several revolutionary states cannot wither while there are capitalist states encircling them.

>Anarcho-capitalists believe a non-centralised, non-monopolistic dispute resolution system would function better than the state.

What is this?


 No.80743

>>80724

>only the state can be a third party arbitrator


 No.80744

>>80743

Enlighten me.


 No.80745

>>80738

>Most communists propose empowering a third party, often a democratically elected government, to take control of the means of production in the name of the workers.

Literally no communists believe this, because then the means of production are not open-access, and the people do not organize themselves without bosses.

It's the basic definition, and what you typed is the equivalent of "most abolitionists believe in expanding the franchise of slavery."

Tankies ain't communist and they ain't left.


 No.80751

>>80745

>Literally no communists believe this, because then the means of production are not open-access, and the people do not organize themselves without bosses.

You are right that you cannot have a classless (communist) society while access to the means of production is restricted by the government, but you are an idiot if you think opening up essencial industry to sabotage would be a good short term solution in a revolutionary/counter-revolutionary climate.

☭Tankies☭ are the only true communists.


 No.80763

>>80751

>you are an idiot if you think opening up essencial industry to sabotage would be a good short term solution in a revolutionary/counter-revolutionary climate.

Y'know, most of our initial thoughts revolved around theft, with weatherproofing second. But, trying to build damage-resistant MoP has been a thought, just on the wingnut case.

In the general, rather than the specific, though… redundancy is excellent antisabotage.

>You are right that you cannot have a classless (communist) society while access to the means of production is restricted by the government

…but despite your penchant for getting kicked out of St. Imiers, we agree on the important stuff. ;)

I just think direct action = best communism. MOUNT the means of production somewhere.


 No.80773

>>80763

I don't get the St. Imiers jab, but I like you.


 No.80787

>>80742

>what is this?

Friedman's book *the machinery of freedom* is the classic essay exploring this question. In short, a mixture of private arbitration agencies, charities, communes and friendly societies could, in this opinion, do a far better job of arbitrating conflicts than a monopolistic, coercive state.


 No.80794


 No.80800

>>80745

"Open-access" MoP's? How would that work? Would factories be assigned time slots for different users? Who decides what to do with the minerals extracted from the mines? Does everyone get an equal ration of everything and then decide what to do with it? Is it put to a vote?

Someone, somewhere, has to make these decisions, and build and maintain these systems. Legitimate ownership derived from labour and exchange is the ancap way of resolving this problem. What is yours?


 No.80803

>>80773

He's talking about the St. Imier international, started by Bakunin and his supporters after their expulsion by tankies from the first international.


 No.80816

>>80745

How would maintenance be dome in an open-access MoP? It would benefit me if I use a factory while it is in good condition and before it breaks down before allowing the next person to use it and ultimately have to fix/maintain it.


 No.80837

File: 8f700b273e65a4a⋯.jpg (283.48 KB, 2560x1600, 8:5, 683b7d649cc487e0925c87cae2….jpg)

File: 94808be9530b0b2⋯.jpg (197.63 KB, 1200x672, 25:14, futuristic-city-under-the-….jpg)

File: 65dd26bcaffb806⋯.jpg (85.76 KB, 461x346, 461:346, 090520-04-seastead-aesthet….jpg)

File: 7ff197848573367⋯.jpg (97.48 KB, 461x346, 461:346, 090520-02-seastead-picture….jpg)

>What do you guys see as the fastest (within our lifetimes) and most feasible way to freedom?

I keep telling you niggas but you still don't wanna listen.


 No.80854

>>80816

>How would maintenance be dome in an open-access MoP? It would benefit me if I use a factory while it is in good condition

You just answered your own question, but then tried to derp your way out of it.

In a communist society, the MOP will be used by those who have an interest in that field, those who use it frequently and teach the newcommers how it works.


 No.80899

>>80837

dont worry, im still here


 No.80901

>>80724

to the extent there is a state is the same extent that there isnt capitalism


 No.80908

File: 759153a86f09d8f⋯.png (600.03 KB, 904x1020, 226:255, ClipboardImage.png)

>>80720

Race war now 14/88 boots on the ground

>>80837

post more, detail how your artificial island fortress would be. go full autistic plz, /tg/ style


 No.80935

>>80854

His problem was that no single individual has an incentive to keep the MoP in good working order for the next one who uses it. In more general terms; capitalist society uses the contract to ensure people you don't know and can't trust fulfill their obligations. What mechanisms does communist society possess for this purpose?


 No.80948

>and most feasible way to freedom?

Pick a location with no political freedom, but great economic freedom. In China for example you have no political freedom, but for the most part you can do whatever you want. Officially there are laws banning X / Y / Z, but in practice you can do whatever you want unless you challenge the government. Political freedom is only valuable to oppress others though so its a worthy trade off.


 No.80971

>>80935

>His problem was that no single individual has an incentive to keep the MoP in good working order for the next one who uses it.

He uses it himself. A machine usually doesn't break down after one use.

You know, this is not really anything new or exciting. There are plenty of communal projects that are being maintained by their users. I don't want our TV to break down just because my roommate uses it too.


 No.80977

>>80901

>capitalism is only free market capitalism

wut


 No.80978

>>80901

No reason a state can't be corporation where they tax land usage. Combined with contract agreeing to X Y Z law on entry.


 No.81041

File: 72b83d7bd090d61⋯.jpg (1019.08 KB, 2410x2400, 241:240, pauTiy3.jpg)

File: cd1ede50c282765⋯.jpg (243.92 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, 14eb89555ff4a563a22eeb89c8….jpg)

File: 541f5a5f0f96913⋯.jpg (121.71 KB, 1024x439, 1024:439, NRCq-olietanker-1024x439.jpg)

File: 37ea459f1e7421a⋯.jpg (61.48 KB, 590x393, 590:393, 6f9b55ff51b1ec6388866381d0….jpg)

>>80908

The way I would want it is for there to be at least a small island just to have some solid ground to stand on, to have hotels and resorts to attract tourists, to act as a park or nature reserve to chill in, and most importantly to provide shallow water for companies to build sea platforms at a lower cost than in the deep ocean.

The sea and the surrounding sea platforms are where most of the population, housing, agriculture, business, and industry is going to be, the platforms are interconnected by bridges, zip lines, slides, underwater tubes and various other forms of transportation. There are different ways companies build these platforms, some of them float on the surface but are anchored to the seafloor, some of them are resting on long columns extending from the seafloor, some of them aren't even platforms but artificial islands made from rocks and sand dumped into the shallow parts of the sea. There will also be some long ones to protect the rest of the city from strong waves.

Besides buying space on a platform, there are various other places for people to be. Some people have their own houseboats, which they also use as transport to move around from place to place and as a shop to sell goods, some people live in large retired ships that were supposed to be sunken or dismantled but special companies renewed and repurposed them into sea-buildings for various purposes (cheap housing, commercial space, farmland, heavy industry, etc…), some companies even have enough money to build large high-tech floating complexes or seascrapers in the deeper parts.

When someone owns their own "land", they own it completely, they don't pay tax and they decide their own rules for everyone located in it, but the NAP (which is enforced by a privatized police, security and military) has to be followed everywhere.


 No.81067

To kill yourself by tripping and falling on your head or smashing it against the nearest object.


 No.81069

>>81041

What in the fuck is going to prevent a merge of the most succesful businesses and the privatized police force?


 No.81082

>>81069

The idea is that there are multiple providers of security services. If one security service takes over an area, the citizens of the area agree to pay two other security forces to free them.

Of course in real life security forces will take over and then tax regions all the time. For the same reason that capitalism has not turned the world into AnCap yet. Tending towards efficiency, does not mean any particular time or location is efficient.


 No.81128

>>80743

>class collaborationist

anon you disgust me


 No.81134

>>80720

Fastest? Revolution through mass tax evasion or straight up violence.

Most likely to bring about stable ancapistan? Agorist counter-economics.


 No.81231

File: 3a891b64b24b5b1⋯.jpg (244.46 KB, 960x948, 80:79, 1522520492514.jpg)

I plan on taking over a medium sized city when the civil war breaks out and turn into my own little New Vegas. You guys can come, if you want.


 No.81236

>>81231

Thanks. Don't mind if I do.




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