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/liberty/ - Liberty

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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 10b8d641669a301⋯.png (119.22 KB, 250x195, 50:39, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.75668

Economic idiot here, conventional economists call deflation the devil, but what are the real reasons why it wouldn't be workable? The argument is that money won't be spent if it grows in spending power over time but that seems to ignore that the average person wants to spend money on goods and services regardless. The core of the idea would affect investment but couldn't lenders just set up negative interest rates such that the borrower never pays more than the original amount of the loan, which would eliminate usury, and the payback for the risk of lending is to split the profit of the investment?

 No.75669

Deflation is not felt everywhere equally, so it causes the mirror results of inflation.


 No.75670

>>75669

So affecting centralized institutions rather than individuals? Is that a bad thing?


 No.75672

File: 017ff62462cc14a⋯.jpg (70.07 KB, 500x669, 500:669, 1493206903366.jpg)

>>75668

>brb, starving to death while waiting for the price of my groceries to go down a few more cents

This is what keynesian "economists" actually believe would happen


 No.75674

>>75668

>>75672

Obviously people aren't going to let themselves starve, but if spending goes down even a few percent it would cause a recession. People definitely changed their behaviour in response to inflation and spent their money quicker.

>The core of the idea would affect investment but couldn't lenders just set up negative interest rates such that the borrower never pays more than the original amount of the loan, which would eliminate usury, and the payback for the risk of lending is to split the profit of the investment?

Idk, sounds complicated, one thing we do know is that past loans weren't arranged this way.


 No.75675

>>75674

>"oh noes, what I want to buy cost less, I should totally not buy it!"

This is what mainstream economists think.

Also the most prosperous era in human history had deflation.


 No.75676

>>75670

Of course it is, makes you a big commie.


 No.75678

>>75675

If something will cost 10% less if you buy it in three months, you are more likely to postpone your purchase than if the price would be the same.

Prove me wrong.


 No.75679

>>75678

Credit card debt?


 No.75680

>>75678

are you a communist and thus able to predict if something will cost less?


 No.75681

File: b0fa61a2c6d3cbe⋯.jpg (60.06 KB, 960x517, 960:517, neo anime.jpg)

Now I think on it the real problem might for producers who have to reduce their prices and cant make a profit any more.

Especially because wages are sticky, they aren't able to reduce their costs.

>>75680

You can have a pretty good idea. Just like I know that my bus ticket will cost slightly more in six months time.


 No.75682

>>75670

Deflation is a good thing, only kikes fears deflation because they're losing money from all the speculation price they had created in short term (e.g bitcoin, money printing, artificial low interest rate loans). Deflation is a natural cause where poor can benefit, assuming that you have real tangible wealth or skill you can trade.


 No.75683

>>75682

Jews would actually benefit if they're the ones loaning out all the money. People with student loans and mortgages would suffer.


 No.75684

>>75683

That's with compound interest.


 No.75685

>>75682

Are you fucking stupid? If you have student loan during deflation, it means you paying your debt lesser than the actual price. The one that losing the most money are the kikes. They are the one that prop up the institution cost where no one could afford.


 No.75686

File: bc3490b079098b9⋯.jpeg (54.42 KB, 732x420, 61:35, Keynes being a fucking re….jpeg)

File: 480e0bd31f838a8⋯.jpg (69.57 KB, 599x632, 599:632, keynesian policy1.jpg)

>>75668

>Economic idiot here, conventional economists call deflation the devil, but what are the real reasons why it wouldn't be workable?

It would totally be workable, if it stayed within reason, but of course, a stable currency is preferable. Inflation is much worse than deflation, because it discourages saving, encourages malinvestment, and can lead to a crackup boom. It's also easier to check against deflation than against inflation.

>The argument is that money won't be spent if it grows in spending power over time but that seems to ignore that the average person wants to spend money on goods and services regardless.

Exactly this. People won't sit on their money for all eternity, waiting for its purchasing power to pierce the heavens. After a certain point, their hungry stomach, boredom, or love of travel gets the better of them and they spend the money. Economically, you can say that the marginal utility of additional purchasing power for your money stock drops below the marginal utility of a consumer good, so you buy it.

The Keynesians don't get any of that, but they are hardly innovative. In the middle of the 19th century, Frédéric Bastiat already had to argue against economists and politicians that wanted to stimulate demand by God knows what means, ignorant of the basic fact that if you force people to spend their money, that money must come from somewhere. The classic example is when you break a shopowners window. Then the shopowner has to get a new one, and that means his money goes to the glass manufacturer, who buys bread, and so on and so on. The problem, of course, is that if you hadn't broken the window, the baker would've bought the bread himself and still be richer by one window. So you diverted resources, you didn't create them.

>The core of the idea would affect investment but couldn't lenders just set up negative interest rates such that the borrower never pays more than the original amount of the loan, which would eliminate usury, and the payback for the risk of lending is to split the profit of the investment?

They could, sure, but then you'll still have interest, unless the interest rate is so negative that it cancels out the increase in purchasing power over time. Say, the money's purchasing power increases by 5% each year, then the lender might demand an annual negative interest rate of 4%. Going as low as the 5% or lower would make the loan essentially a gift.

Splitting the profit of investment is just another means to take care of the time-preference of the lender. He will want more money back than he put in, and he wants to take care of the risk of his loan, but whether he does that by getting a share in the profit or by getting interest is simply up to his preference.

I hope that was somewhat helpful.


 No.75690

>>75685

>If you have student loan during deflation, it means you paying your debt lesser than the actual price

That would be inflation.

Under deflation, paying back $100 means paying back an ever increasing amount.


 No.75691

>>75690

You would then have to run a negative interest rate if you want anyone to borrow from you.


 No.75692

>>75674

>Obviously people aren't going to let themselves starve, but if spending goes down even a few percent it would cause a recession.

Not a real recession, only production would decrease. There is a difference. A recession is defined as the economy doing badly, that's its essence. Take that out of the concept and it becomes meaningless. Spending can also go down because time-preference increases, or because - hypothetically - consumers develop a better taste and stop buying useless shit they don't need. Now, would that - especially the latter - be a bad thing? I really don't think so.

To take another approach, if increased spending stimulated by inflation does not benefit the economy, then why should decreased spending stimulated by deflation harm it? It's not like there's a strict causality to the effect that the more people spend, the better the economy runs, and even the Keynesians implicitly acknowledge that. Then by necessity, there also cannot be a strict causality to the opposite effect.


 No.75693

>>75691

But current loans aren't arranged at a negative interest rate.


 No.75694

>>75692

A real recession because GDP would go down.


 No.75695

File: 876e7cd4f6545ee⋯.jpg (217.42 KB, 655x1081, 655:1081, 1433548905291.jpg)

>>75693

You would establish a new economic system then.


 No.75696

File: 6ecd055bc4dd7b1⋯.png (28.9 KB, 778x535, 778:535, Screenshot (43).png)


 No.75697

>>75686

Wait, no, that's not true.

>They could, sure, but then you'll still have interest, unless the interest rate is so negative that it cancels out the increase in purchasing power over time. Say, the money's purchasing power increases by 5% each year, then the lender might demand an annual negative interest rate of 4%. Going as low as the 5% or lower would make the loan essentially a gift.

No one will give a loan at a negative interest rate because by just keeping his money, the value already increases. It's like a "default" interest rate. Keeping the money in my scenario is equivalent to giving a loan at 5% annual interest.

Now, to answer this:

>>75691

The nominal interest rate will still be positive, because otherwise, the lender would not earn any interest.

>>75694

GDP is an indicator of economic prosperity, it's not the prosperity itself. If GDP grows more slowly, or even shrinks, because people save more instead of spending everything, how is that a bad thing? I don't think the effect would even be that strong to begin with, but supposing that it is… so what? Everyone complains about how capitalism eats the environment and people are mindless consumers, but then they get all anxious about GDP growth. Why?


 No.75700

File: 9ffcb9501760b8d⋯.jpg (19.78 KB, 392x273, 56:39, 1459904967104.jpg)

>>75697

You would let people borrow the money to do things for additional profit.


 No.75705

>>75678

Various electronics have been going down in price for a good while now. Computers, for example, have been getting steadily cheaper for their output.


 No.75709

>>75700

Which would just be a substitute for interest, but you haven't shown why it would be a necessary one.


 No.75710

>>75700

>>75709

As in, why profit shares would be substituted for interest. Why do you think that needs to happen?


 No.75711

File: fea55812c4e90b9⋯.jpg (24.58 KB, 480x532, 120:133, 1456505753199.jpg)

>>75709

>>75710

There's this idea that no one will give loans for investment in a deflationary economy, I'm trying to say it's bunk. If you can gain, why wouldn't you? You just wouldn't be as prone to taking risk.


 No.75712

>>75700

There's nothing wrong with earning money from lending your wealth to someone as long the principle of supply and demand is applied. When more people borrow your money, you increase the extra payment for the next new borrower to pay back. When there are fewer people borrowing, you decrease the payment for the next new borrower to pay back. It's the same concept of marketing your product when to sell at higher price or lower price depending of the volume of customer you have in order to achieve stable price. The price deal should remain constant to the customer when they buy.

>hur durr muh usury

I swear to all these cristcucks will never understand what supply and demand is all about, some goes to these religion of cucks (tm). Fucking niggers.


 No.75713

>>75711

I mean, the issue in the past (and present) was that certain groups would hoard access to the deflationary currency before anyone else, thus causing the population and economy at large to suffer. If everyone had access to the currency (even in small amounts) for day-to-day purposes the economy could still be functional and would gain from the deflation over time.


 No.75715

>>75712

Usury is a NEETSoc principle. There are plenty of parables about how Usury is good.

t. "Christcuck"


 No.75716

File: aa7aeb544ede1b7⋯.gif (1.93 MB, 244x201, 244:201, 1431922385259.gif)

>>75712

The core of issues comes from idiots being in charge of centralized financial institutions letting people borrow more money than they have and then not being able to pay back loans they made themselves. They have bad business sense and don't follow supply and demand, giving out easy loans for short term speculative profit to line their pockets and bailing before it comes crashing down.


 No.75717

Deflation means:

- Less spending (decreased consumption goods)

- More saving/investing (increased capital goods)

More investments ->

more products/industries ->

more jobs ->

higher real income ->

increased purchasing power ->

more wealth


 No.75720

>>75670

The money is taxed and taken out of circulation, making those taxed less have more.


 No.75741

>>75686

Did Keynes really say that?


 No.75755

>>75711

>There's this idea that no one will give loans for investment in a deflationary economy, I'm trying to say it's bunk.

They might invest less because holding the money already promises returns [spoiler][/spoiler]. Or, they might invest more, because the purchasing power of their monetary supply rises and that means they have more money left over for investment.

I don't think you can predict it either way, but even if the first scenario is the case, then the problem solves itself without monetary intervention. When prices relatively decrease, which is what happens when demand sinks, then people will be more inclined to buy, and thus to spend money. A runaway deflation is not plausible.

>>75715

This. The Catholic Church struggled with it for a long while, but I don't hear it complain about usury anymore or try to figure out what the just price is. The Bible itself passively affirms that there is nothing wrong with interest, I think it was Aristotle and his reception by the scholastics that deceived the Church.

>>75741

Short story, yes. Long story, still yes, but he said that productive labor is better for the economy than baking mudpies. That's only marginally better, because the absurdity is that Keynes thinks that unproductive labor can be good for the economy at all.


 No.75757

>>75755

God, he's even dumber than I thought.


 No.75760

File: 5703825e7b267e6⋯.png (122.67 KB, 600x321, 200:107, ClipboardImage.png)

>>75755

>unproductive labor can be good for the economy

Why is Keynes even a thing after the 1970s?


 No.77571

If I can buy the planet with 1 dollar, what is wrong?

OP is autistic


 No.77594

File: 213b937afbac8a0⋯.jpg (41.37 KB, 387x580, 387:580, 1431543806329.jpg)

>>77571

Why not? If the entire planet was worth 1 dollar, no one would one the entire dollar, everyone would own some miniscule fraction of it as otherwise the economy couldn't function.




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