[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / ausneets / hgs / islam / leftpol / metatech / o / ss / sw ]

/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
Name
Email
Subject
Comment *
File
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Flag
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Oekaki
Show oekaki applet
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options
dicesidesmodifier
Password (For file and post deletion.)

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: eb1d8a995cf4b3a⋯.png (320.86 KB, 680x453, 680:453, neoliberal triggerdog.png)

File: 4ab33a7d40338a5⋯.jpg (94.3 KB, 538x767, 538:767, neoliberal propaganda.jpg)

File: 42049c125666777⋯.png (332.09 KB, 483x767, 483:767, neoliberal tired of rhetor….png)

File: 6c438c11523f818⋯.png (285.3 KB, 768x768, 1:1, neoliberal-compass.png)

 No.67410

Thoughts on r/Neoliberal?

They look up to people like Friedman and Hayek but also support a welfare state and central banking, provided it's all evidence based ofc.

 No.67412

>>67410

Fucking casuals, the lot of them. A big state doesn't become smaller just because you're handling it with care.

>welfare state

>central banking

>evidence based

Kek, how about no?


 No.67413

It's basically reddit - the ideology


 No.67418

File: 474eb4032a8ac4e⋯.jpg (246.22 KB, 1024x1198, 512:599, amin yashed.jpg)

>>67410

> welfare state

> Central banking

And thus it joins it's bretheren into the trash.

>provided it's all evidence based ofc.

Have the results of the modern welfare state as well as the achievements of the Federal Reserve not warranted a questioning of the "evidence based" proclamation of these people?

> inb4 "Hayek's idea of a welfare state is a lot different than traditional welfare states."

It's the same shit with a different pair of socks.


 No.67437

>>67410

>they look up to Friedman and Hayek

No, they don't. They have never even read those people. Every time I go there I can literally quote Friedman and take arguments directly from Capitalism and Freedom and I'll still get downboated.

It's nothing to do with "evidence based policy", it's just a circlejerk with a strong pro-establishment bias.


 No.67438

File: 2a030b0fdc0d994⋯.png (47.51 KB, 907x413, 907:413, neoliberal 42134.PNG)

>>67437

Pic related


 No.67440

>>67412

>>67418

I'm not sure what their take on the financial crisis is. I'll have to look into it.

>>67438

I haven't been there a long time but they use Friedman in their memes fairly often. It doesn't mean they take his view on everything though.

They support small increases in the MW because evidence says they don't cause unemployment (there's disagreement on why, but potentially employees are made to work harder and prices slightly increases


 No.67441

>>67440

Before looking, my guess is they blame the housing policy without blaming the Fed much, and argue the Fed has increased stability overall


 No.67443

>>67440

Yes, because small increments are too small to create noticeable statistical differences. It takes a long time for the market to shift to adjust to a small increase in minimum wage, but it does happen, and that's abundantly clear when you compare various countries by minimum wage.


 No.67447

>>67440

>They support small increases in the MW because evidence says they don't cause unemployment (there's disagreement on why, but potentially employees are made to work harder and prices slightly increases

So employees have to work harder and consumers pay more? This alone should be reason to be highly skeptical of a minimum wage. You can't even say unambiguously that the workers are better off, because they are all consumers too, and because they may have enjoyed the easygoing attitude at work.

Also, evidence a shit, this is not how economics works. People who don't use a priori methodologies are peasants and nerds.


 No.67451

Update on causes. Haven't really read

https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/6ldpa4/the_causes_of_the_2008_financial_crisis_from_a/

https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/6ovdy4/what_are_your_views_on_the_financial_crisis_of/

>>67443

Is it? Many countries without legal MW have mandatory union membership and the unions set the MW.

>>67447

Not unambiguously but seems quite likely they will be better off.

>Also, evidence a shit, this is not how economics works. People who don't use a priori methodologies are peasants and nerds.

The way I see it it's the only way to assess the relative strengths of different effects. Otherwise you're just speculating.


 No.67457

>>67451

>Not unambiguously but seems quite likely they will be better off.

Why? Because you hampered capital development, and know better how the atmosphere in the work place should be than them and their boss? How do you even know if their nominal increase in prices makes up for the rising costs of production? What about the eocnomy as a whole, how do you know that a minimum wage isn't harming anyone? "It seems likely" means shit, leave this kind of faith in the church and don't apply it to economic dogmas.

>The way I see it it's the only way to assess the relative strengths of different effects. Otherwise you're just speculating.

And as I see it, you cannot finetune the market, a system which is made up of the actions of billions of people. All the failures of the economic advisers before you should've taught you some respect and humbleness, and not to trust econometrics and empirical evidence when it conflicts with sound a priori reasoning.


 No.67462

It's the biggest and most transparent shill operation ever.


 No.67464

Is this sarcastic? This seems like some deep, /bane/-tier kayfabe. I mean, if you wanted to discuss neoliberalism on Reddit, you could go literally anywhere and find normalfags with these views.


 No.67468

>>67464

Neoliberalism is not popular, it's just accepted as a sort of necessary evil.


 No.67507

>>67451

Yeah, and the unions are a lot better at negotiating wages that are better for everyone compared to state.


 No.67535

File: df35845ea29113b⋯.jpg (26.66 KB, 398x361, 398:361, df35845ea29113bccb83cc6452….jpg)

>>67410

>Leddit


 No.67543

>welfare state

no, just no


 No.67553

>>67464

Not really because they think Bernie Sanders is dumb


 No.67589

File: 34ae4be2fe8bece⋯.jpg (40.92 KB, 396x382, 198:191, Please fuck off back to Re….jpg)

>Thoughts on r/

stopped there, pic related


 No.67597

>Reddit

One of the few sites that needs to just gas themselves. Even fagbook is better.


 No.67626


 No.68083

>>67410

We have to tug on both sides of the overton window; therefore creating a liberal-libertarian fusion is a must. r/neoliberal is the perfect target for this.


 No.68093

>>68083

prove


 No.68105

File: 5873f9266455e22⋯.jpg (115.88 KB, 790x1000, 79:100, hitchcock_suggestion.jpg)

>>67410

>redditors LARPing as benecifiaries of globalism-corporatism

>pic related

>>68083

>liberaltarianism

>I agree with rootless cosmopolitans who want to shift around people for arbitrage, I just have a few quibbles about taxes and regulation

>also pic related


 No.68113

>>68105

You mean people larping at finishing their education, finding work and maintaining employment, making an effort to be attractive to potential love interests and pursuing their hobbies - all because they understand that all these things require personal responsibility?

Abandon your statist mindset. If you're lucky enough to live in a free country, self-actualisation is already at hand. Stop waiting for a state, or a great leader or a committee to give you stuff. Money, a lover, and happiness are out there - you need to take responsibility for yourself, realise that all your actions matter, and no one else can live your life for you.

All your actions are important and deeply impact one person in particular - yourself.


 No.68120

>>68113

Do you need to recieve validation for your existence as a faggot striver from random strangers on the internet?


 No.68125

>>68120

No, I just feel sorry for a bunch of nerds thinking that authoritarianism is going to give them pussy


 No.68128

File: e3823042ef56335⋯.jpg (40.35 KB, 640x527, 640:527, smuganimeface4.jpg)

>>68125

>haha anybody who hates neoliberalism must be a NEETsoc

Here, have a smug anime girl for your retardation.

And don't forget not to breed, tower dwelling insect.


 No.68129

>>68128

Too late. Enjoy fapping it to colored in drawings. Btw, authoritarians are also on the left. Commies and intolerant anarkiddies need help as well.


 No.68134

File: 02438837987384d⋯.png (271.71 KB, 300x458, 150:229, face.png)

>>68129

>IF ONLY YOU STUPID KIDDIES WEREN'T AROUND WE COULD MARCH HAND IN HAND FOR TRANNY POZ IN EVERY BATHROOM AND OPEN BORDERS WITH RESPECTABLE LIBERALS


 No.68796

>>68105

dont firstworders benefit from globalism-corportatism?


 No.68866

>>68796

A small subset does, in the same way third world elites profit from living in extractive societies.

The vast majority? No, because wages have been flat for over a decade for the middle and working lower class, direct and indirect taxation has increased, workplace competition has increased due to the importation of unskilled and "credentialed" foreign labor and most people do not have the means to shield themselves from these changes.


 No.69262

>>67410

There is still ongoing war on r/Anarcho_Capitalism between (((r/neoliberal Raiders))) like u/SuaveCrouton and people who were forced to move to A_C after r/Physical_Removal was banned for "inciting violence"


 No.69264

>>69262

How about not browsing Reddit, then?


 No.69265

File: 4a5daa8660fb0dc⋯.png (927.45 KB, 1024x707, 1024:707, protectionism.png)

>>68866

actually compensation has been steadily increasing

and prices are lower

however the work might be less satisfying for all i know. that could be just as important.


 No.74210

Is this an accurate description of neoliberalism? (by a socdem on /leftypol/) And would you say neoliberalism preferable to what was before 1975 or not?

[n.b. the prefixes are just used to distinguish various meanings, "generalised neoliberalism" isn't actually a term used. all of these fall under "Neoliberalism".]

vulgar neoliberalism: free market fetishism, synonymous with Libertarianism almost 1:1

generalised neoliberalism: the social and economic changes to society since ~1975.

more detailed definition: Neoliberalism is what happens when libertarian instincts crash into reality - but the key feature of neoliberalism has also been to redefine realism and reality - For example, it is now considered unrealistic to maintain the low levels of employment seen in the postwar era, and considered just an element of realism that we will always have poor unemployed people. If you look at Thatcher, that was probably her major success - to change how the civil service thought, and thus what was "realistic" for politicians to do. (So if a cabinet minister suggested renationalising the railways, the civil service instinct would be "It's probably not realistic to do that", whereas pre-Thatcher had someone suggested it the mindset would also have been "It's probably not realistic to do that", even if materially both privatisation and nationalisation were viable ideas to push onto the world.)

Neoliberals aren't libertarians/ancaps because their aim was (and their success has been to) to take over the state and operate it instead of to abolish or even downsize it. Instead the aim has been to transform state intervention so as to preserve competition, in some ways to facilitate information flows (this is rooted in Hayek.), and so on. While 1980s neoliberals outright rejected Keynesianism (on ridiculous anti-inflationary grounds), post-2008 ones have plagarised just enough Keynes to stop the musical chairs catching fire and burning down the house. (In short, the government spends more to stop us sliding into a depression, but will never target full employment, and will prefer to spend in ways that give individuals direct choice/purchasing power than by directly launching infrastructure projects.)

Neoliberals fetishise the market in ways that ancaps don't, such as the competitive contracting system used for UK railways - the state takes bids from private companies, then picks the one with the best bid. This is a competitive system for something that isn't normally competitive (railways) since you can't really build two parallel tracks for competing rail-lines, but from a free market perspective it's still ridiculously statist. It's an artificial market, accepting that in practice we need railways but balking at the idea that if we need it, and if it's never going to be profitable, the state should just run it. In an intentionally vulgar form, you could say that ancaps want the market to decide what markets exist (i.e. UK railways would probably just collapse in an ancap society and everyone would take a plane), and neoliberals want markets to be everywhere. (Hence you have schools publishing league tables to try and forcibly create a "market" in education by having parents pick a school.)

You also have the - perhaps unintended - development of neoliberalism into society, where we've had increasing surveillance, monitoring and even (ironically) performance-targeting of workers and state services, borne initially from hare brained attempts to create markets in state services where it isn't realistically possible to devise a price system. Theoretically this solves two problems - one, that rational self-interested state employees will be lazy, and two - that by setting targets without defining methods, rational free individuals can meet the targets most efficiently. In practice this devolved into farce. (Most notoriously in the case of hospitals hiring people to greet people in reception, so that for waiting time target purposes they could say patients were "seen" almost immediately.)


 No.74211

Austerity is an interesting point of divergence - go ask /r/neoliberal or any qualified economist and they'll tell you austerity is an unspeakably stupid solution to a recession. But in terms of the instincts behind neoliberalism, and to some extend the baked-in Hayekian thought, politicians find it a natural response. On the right it appeals to a hell-mend-it small statism, and on the centre-left it appeals to the need for "realism" even if all those realistic economists are saying it's bloody stupid. In this, and in considering the surveillance apparatus, and the various other unintended consequences, it is perhaps possible to see where the neoliberal revolution will collapse.

Also, I feel some history is useful in understanding the neoliberal mindset in the context of the 1970s. These were people who genuinely looked at business owners - and in some cases these were petit bourgs, and saw that workers were going on strike to force concessions from them and thought "The evil collective is bullying the poor individual". For all their economic arguments against unions (they cause unemployment/worsen inflation/are a monopoly on labour and therefore BAD), there's this kind of individualist argument emotional instinct against unions, or perhaps more accurately against effective unions. For the neoliberals this of course necessitated using the state to legally regulate unions into oblivion (without banning them), which is just what they went and did in the UK. Contrast ancaps, where we can assume a free market solution would be for anti-union employers to have workers sign no-union contracts, and if no workers will accept that, it's just what the market wants. Though of course many ancaps hate unions too.

Once neoliberalism passes, i think it may be possible to separate two or three stages of neoliberalism. /r/neoliberal in general seem more like Tony Blair/Bill Clinton types than Margaret Thatcher types, although they may feel cool and edgy for being able to speak positively of Thatcher. Perhaps it's that where Thatcher had small state instincts combined with the ability to pick her battles (i.e. she may have liked a private health system, but known this was not politically viable, so settled for market reform inside the NHS), Blair and Clinton truly adopted the state-market synthesis that defined "actually existing neoliberalism" (Blair launched like 5 reforms of the NHS, most with a mindset to more marketisation/efficiency), although this is a very UK centric look at things. (Reagan is a weird special case, with Carter or even Ford being a better origin point stateside, and in Australia/New Zealand the transition was governed by parties of the centre-left, with the centre-right taking power in the 90s, but I don't know very much about them so can't pin down what impacts that had.) Finally you have the post-2008 period, and (hopefully) the eventual death of neoliberalism to the ??? presently termed populism.

finally, /r/neoliberal self definition of neoliberalism, which takes a far more internationalist outlook than is normal for western politics (though perhaps Friedmanite "free to choose" thinking is the root):

We do not all subscribe to a single comprehensive philosophy but instead find common ground in shared sentiments and approaches to public policy

1; Individual choice and markets are of paramount importance both as an expression of individual liberty and driving force of economic prosperity

2. The state serves an important role in establishing conditions favorable to competition through preventing monopoly, providing a stable monetary framework, and relieving acute misery and distress

3. Free exchange and movement between countries makes us richer and has lead to an unparalleled decline in global poverty

4. Public policy has global ramifications and should take into account the effect it has on people around the world regardless of nationality


 No.74231

>>67438

That's pretty well put, I'm just going to use this picture whenever minimum wage laws come up.

>>67451

The problem with evidence based with regards to economics is that it's essentially impossible to isolate variables or run experiments. 'Evidence' with regards to economics requires as much speculation to explain the data. Empirical data is useful but to use it as the ultimate authority in economics is dangerous.


 No.74266

Arrogant clowns whos connections tag them to the same bog as frogtwitter/ironybro sphere. If they weren't clinging to former US Presidents as 'model figures of saving grace', they'd be joining the reactionary wave of tankies LARPing on Facebook.


 No.74267

File: d7a1c5578bb9db9⋯.jpg (73.58 KB, 1024x661, 1024:661, communism never tried.jpg)

>>74266

this is a really unknowledgable opinion. they're always making fun of tankies and other parts of the far left.

neoliberalism basically says that everything is going okay, or at least could be fixed with minor changes in policy, the exact opposite of tankies.


 No.74270

>>74267

A commonly recurring form of leftist is the socdem that thinks listening to Chapo Trap House, becoming a DSA member, and picking Twitter fights will be the new peak of political extremism

The amount of crossover between Chapo listeners and "Neoliberals" is more than what people realize. Either that or this is merely a minor observation of Web 3.0 social media.




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Cancer][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / ausneets / hgs / islam / leftpol / metatech / o / ss / sw ]