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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 42b76084fc94cdf⋯.jpg (101.12 KB, 736x682, 368:341, bad burger.jpg)

File: 72edba57e7cb4a2⋯.png (52.44 KB, 817x600, 817:600, burger.png)

 No.67292

Hey libfags, I found a comic of yours and made it better

 No.67293

File: 127596efbd46e5e⋯.png (299.99 KB, 802x608, 401:304, ClipboardImage.png)


 No.67294

>>67292

But the cost of raw materials and human labor is subjective. Even then, there are cases where products are sold at a loss, to clear out space for new products, such as last-season clothes or food that is close to expiration date.


 No.67296

>>67294

The cost of human labour is perhaps the least subjective thing there is - it's the cost of production of the labourer, the cost required to feed and house them. Your line is logic is akin to consistently asking 'why', but instead you just keep saying 'it's subjective' with no real reasoning.


 No.67297

File: ee570239afe2748⋯.jpg (39.77 KB, 389x600, 389:600, I_Pencil.jpg)

>>67292

The reason she had to sell it for $4 though is because she accepted it for subjective wages that the farmers who raised the beef, grew the lettuce, tomatoes, grain, etc. millers who processed the bread, and other workers involved all decided they wanted/needed for them to sell their product to produce the burger in the first place.

You could find a pseudo-objective pricepoint in the form of "what the costs are to produce a burger based on what other people want" and it would be fine for values such as purchasing power parity, but in order to effectively understand and use the pricepoint of the burger as a control for economic planning is ludicrous as the pricepoint of the burger is not a stable value to begin with and not truly objective.


 No.67298

>>67297

Again, you've just taken the problem one step back in the production line. The same logic still applies there just as much as it does in retail.


 No.67299

File: 8a1a77a9e8fa1f0⋯.png (25.97 KB, 462x320, 231:160, 1446439886783-0.png)

>>67296

The price of housing is determined by those who built the house who accepted an equally subjective wage, or if you want to be a caveman about it, the subjective value the faggot who found his cave/burrow decided to place on it (perhaps 2 fish, the value he had to expend in food not caught/eaten in order to find his cave).

The closest thing you could get to an objective value are pseudo-objective values as stated above, that is, values that tend to not fluctuate unless economic planning begins to fuck with the system as a whole, or the literal human nutritional/biological requirements necessary to sustain a person performing a task (which is still somewhat subjective as those nutritional requirements require a medium to deliver them into your gut, hence back to step one).


 No.67300


 No.67301

File: db15d12c8a7070c⋯.png (42.89 KB, 300x276, 25:23, 300px-Autistic_screeching_….png)


 No.67302

File: 9d5490abc31e97d⋯.png (324.54 KB, 576x566, 288:283, porky.png)

>>67301

>yes, good workers, remember to compete amoung each other for the privilege of working for me!


 No.67303

>>67302

>idontunderstandeconomics.jpeg


 No.67304

>>67303

No, I do, I just didn't bother refuting an argument I had refuted in the OP.


 No.67305

File: 4ddbdc7a3b160f1⋯.png (30.29 KB, 779x73, 779:73, ClipboardImage.png)

It seems no one here is aware that wages are themselves the price of the commodity of labour-power. If labour-power is a commodity, it follows that labour-power is determined by the same laws that determine the burger in the picture, which too is a commodity. Therefore, moving the problem back to the 'subjectivity' of wages does not solve the problem, as the exact same argument will just be used as that in related to the burger.

Honestly, I would just go ahead and read: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Wage_Labour_and_Capital.pdf


 No.67306


 No.67307

File: 8700ae15423b36f⋯.png (157.13 KB, 640x797, 640:797, dissapoint.png)

>>67300

Again, you didn't answer jack shit, you just jerked yourself off. Stop fucking masturbating and read what I'm saying.

The furthest back you can go to determine production value is the original extractor of the material, and even he is benefiting from commodities that were subjectively produced. Like a game of Prisoner's Dilemma (or as defined in De Jasay's Social Justice & The Indian Rope Trick), you're dealing with compounded effects along a near-infinite timeline. No planner will have full knowledge of this timeline, and even if they did, no planner, not even a super computer, would have the available power to accurately calculate this timeline. The reasoning behind why it's subjective is specifically in the details.

I'm a logical man. I think the world, no, the universe is objectively objective on mathematical principles whether it's going into the future or moral values. That being said, you have to come to a point where you realize that even if you could theoretically determine that an objective value exists (number theorists/discrete mathematics do this all the time), for all intents and purposes, this value will be forever a subjective value as it would require the equivalence of omniscience to discover its discrete and objective value. It's the same philosophical paradox as free will. Even if free will doesn't exist, we live in a state where there are so many interacting and conflicting variables that to an outside observer, a free will might not exist mathematically, but for all practical purposes it is there on paper.

Let me repeat that since you probably didn't read half of what I posted anyways. An objective value may exist mathematically, but the variables are so interconnected that it effectively does not exist as it is not possible to deduce its value nor define its value unless you are an omniscient being.


 No.67309

File: 5db2723ee84b0c4⋯.png (320.61 KB, 637x654, 637:654, b30.png)

>>67307

Going back to my original thought processas I described above…

You can use these pseudo-objective values to come to an understanding of things like PPP, that is, purely observational matters to make "educated guesses" about market fluctuations and market impacts, but you can't centrally plan using this data as it will fuck up the underlying variables if you do that.


 No.67310

>>67307

Three things.

1. I will never stop masturbating.

2. idk why you're talking about planning so much, I never bought it up.

3. Actually you CAN quite easily calculate price points in a planned economy. I mean, Socialism seeks the abolition of the concept of value altogether, but I admit that in the short transition phase the type of planning you seek of would be utilized, so for that time, I refer you to this pdf which goes through the maths step by step: http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/publications/ccm.IJUC07.pdf


 No.67311

File: 98b9cf9640b816a⋯.png (579.37 KB, 2123x751, 2123:751, mr_flowchart.png)


 No.67312

The workers could just sell the burger on their own, then you can't make a profit off it.

Except the person buying the burger who thinks it's worth more than the price.


 No.67313

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>67310

>2. idk why you're talking about planning so much, I never bought it up.

Because the entire purpose of determining an objective price point on the worker's labor is to utilize this price point either in central planning of the economy, or in an attempt to eliminate capital entirely, typically leading to the equivalency of central planning.

>3. Actually you CAN quite easily calculate price points in a planned economy.

You can calculate what the planned economy has set them to. Go ask Venezuela about that one since they can't even plan the price of lightbulbs or toilet paper.


 No.67314

>>67312

How can the workers make their own burger when they don't own any means of production?

Buy some with daddies inheritance?


 No.67315

File: 5b5c224e89ed7f5⋯.jpg (335.63 KB, 600x849, 200:283, 1503709605629.jpg)

Price cannot be subjective because it requires at least two people.


 No.67316

>>67313

>le venezuela

why don't you just read the pdf, if you're so logical.


 No.67317

File: cfb74a15c1017ca⋯.jpg (271.09 KB, 500x571, 500:571, 1427529876785-0.jpg)

>>67314

>Kill animal

>Grind up meat

>Cook meat on fire

>Sell it to some fag who's hungry

Pretty easily until government gets involved, honestly.


 No.67318

>>67316

Actually you know you guys aren't gonna know so I'll go ahead and say it.

Venezuela does not have a planned economy. It has a market economy. It's having problems right now because of a market crash in oil prices. If it was a planned economy, market crashes would not effect it in the slightest, as we saw from the great depression not touching the USSR's planned economy.

There's actually a great video that explains the whole Venezuela meme you all might wanna check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le86H7Xfjrc


 No.67319

>>67317

>Kill animal

What animal? You have animals lying around? Should I go find one? Oh wait all farms are private property.

>Grind up meat

With what tools? My hands?

>Cook meat on fire

Same point as above.


 No.67320

File: 91810a43f29e724⋯.jpg (35.84 KB, 528x1024, 33:64, 5801bf3698f529632c4c4dd287….jpg)

I think I finally understood /liberty/-logic:

> the free market is perfect

> therefore economic planning must be about simulating the free market

> nothing else ever existed and nothing else will ever exist

It's pretty sad actually.


 No.67321

File: 5886c0bc986a432⋯.png (153.99 KB, 385x344, 385:344, 1465695091745.png)


 No.67322

>>67319

Things have to be made, or exist, welcome to the real world.


 No.67323

File: a399adb05cabf7b⋯.png (3.77 KB, 363x323, 363:323, 6c007d3e2442cc75d6edda15ce….png)

>>67316

I'm reading your shitty PDF right now as I'm posting and it's pretty much rehashing the idea I stated above of pseudo-objective value. As I stated above, pseudo-objective values are fine for intervening in the market at a surface level (such as buying and selling stocks, investing, interest rates, etc.) until you start planning your economy. The moment you introduce too many price controls, laws on goods, etc. you begin to run into the fact that you can't determine your market values any more because your own policies are obscuring them, and you end up with shortages of goods that should have been plentifully available. The Keynesians (read: Pseudo-Marxist government cocksuckers) can tell you all about how that one went when they only focused on increasing spending. Shit, the federal reserve can tell you about those failures since it created virtually every economic collapse in America (with the help of congress) since the early 1900s.

>>67318

>Venezuela is capitalist

Oh lordy, here we go again…

>as we saw from the great depression not touching the USSR's planned economy.

More because they pulled a Hitler and stole shit from everyone around them after promising to invest in them if they brought business to them, to get them to bring resources to the USSR. You can ask the "Koch cocksuckers" about that one.

>>67319

>Waaah, life is hard!

>>67320

The free market isn't perfect, the alternatives are just faggots who think they know everything and get millions of people killed because of their poor decision-making skills and desire to hold power over others.

Fuck it, I'm out. I can have this argument in real life with some faggot face-to-face if I wanted to beat this dead horse for the 200th time.


 No.67324

>>67320

No, you filthy nigger.

> the free market is perfect

It isn't, and no one ever said it was. It's simply the best system there is, but not perfect. Mises went out of his way to make this clear, but of course, you have never read him, because that would take actual effort. It's exactly the effort you have to invest if you want to be taken serious, as far as I'm concerned.

> therefore economic planning must be about simulating the free market

False. Economic planning suffers from a myriad of problems but the most severe, and the one that you cannot fix, is the calculation-problem. You're not so much simulating the market in your planning as you are introducing a genuine, if unfree market because it's the only thing that works.

> nothing else ever existed and nothing else will ever exist

This is just a dumb thing to say. No, there is no genuine alternative. Either you have a market, or you have no working economy. If you have a market, then the only way to improve it with force is by preventing property infrictions.


 No.67329

>>67323

>why don't you make your own goods to sell?

>I have nothing to use to make things

>wow what a crybaby

Ok, I'm done with you. You're an idiot.


 No.67330

File: 4d4dea8b60a5037⋯.pdf (203.04 KB, Ludwig von Mises - Economi….pdf)

OP, just read pdf related. Come back with any questions. You're on a very low level of understanding, and your attitude doesn't help.

>>67318

>If it was a planned economy, market crashes would not effect it in the slightest, as we saw from the great depression not touching the USSR's planned economy.

Every single planned economy had at least some markets left. Even under the Khmer Rouge, people traded goods; read reports about the evacuation of Phnom Penh. The USSR always had a large black market and Lenin officially styled the economy more after capitalism after the famine of 1921. Look up the New Economic Policy.

And I doubt the USSR wasn't hit by the Great Depression. They probably alleviated the effects with the fraud that >>67323 mentioned, simultaneously covered the traces of their shitty economic situation by faking statistics and censoring witnesses, and they already suffered regular shortages at the same time, which had a similar effect. Think of it like this: The US was a healthy athlete who was suddenly diagnosed with a respiratory infection. The USSR is a chain smoker, it stole medicine from other patients, and it lied about feeling pain, yet it also has a respiratory infection. You're a doctor, you have both as patients, and you diagnose the USSR as being completely healthy. Do you really think you should keep your license, or should you go back and read that damn pdf I sent you?


 No.67331

>>67319

>what animal

wtf do you mean what animal, animals exist in nature its not something that has to be synthesized in a lab with tools you dont have easy access to

>grind up meat with my hands?

first of all, since this is in a free market it should be trivial to obtain a meat grinder, it is merely a steel kitchen tool, but if you want to be a retarded pedant about it then yes you can rip meat apart with your hands, the hamburger was named after hamburg Germany, because an ancient barbarian tribe there shredded their beef before eating it

>fire is hard guys

fuck off, kindling exists in nature and its all you need for a fire, you can make a fire of wood and a furnace of mud

you helped me realize that leftists literally dont know that the whole world isnt concrete, so I will bump the thread


 No.67333

Prices which wouldn't be set if there wasn't a demand(subjective evaluation of a particular commodity) for that particular commodity. Why do leftists put the cart before the horse?


 No.67338

>>67330

>ECP

lol: http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/publications/ccm.IJUC07.pdf

>Every single planned economy had at least some markets left.

No, by definition they don't. Not Socialist ones at least anyway, I suppose you can have sections of industry put under command economy under Capitalism, but that's not quite the same. Even if they did, Venezuela has majority of private sector.


 No.67340

>>67331

Why the fuck are you going on about nature everything is private property I can't just waltz into a garden somewhere a find a cow to turn into a burger.


 No.67341

>>67333

You're correct, commodities are commodities because they are useful to society in some way, but how does this refute the original argument?


 No.67342

>>67319

1. Animals are literally everywhere. Not all land is privately owned.

2. You can produce the tools, take out loans to fund the tools, or use previous wages.

3. Even boy scouts can create a fire and spit in a cave with a box of scraps.


 No.67343

>>67340

>everything is private property

Nope.

t.goes innawoods all the time to hunt squirrels and collect firewood


 No.67344

>>67341

Because the value of the commodity is derived from the aggregate evaluations, and not from labor?


 No.67345

>>67340

>being this much of a sheltered armchair revolutionary


 No.67346

>>67343

Ah, I'll sell poorly cooked squirrel meat. I'll take over McDonalds in no time.


 No.67347

>>67340

>a find a cow to turn into a burger.

You can get paid to catch stray dogs on the public roads, grind the meat and then sell the "hot dogs" as chinese cuisine, thus you get double the income.

Someone will actually reply to this with "this is what libertarians actually believe"


 No.67351

>>67302

Yes, workers compete with each other for the privilege of working. Employers also compete for the privilege of having employees. It is actually quite fair. Every worker has the right to try his hand at being an employer. Sometimes employers even decide to go back to being workers. Working for a great company can be more rewarding than owning a shitty company.


 No.67352

>>67347

But I do believe that. If you can actually convince people to buy your dog meat, I don't see the problem. If people are morally repulsed by that business idea then it will never be successful, and again, there is no problem


 No.67375

>>67346

Everything I've heard about squirrel meat says that it tastes good, and they're hardly the only option. In my state wild hogs are a major pest, and other places have far too many deer. Depending on the landowner, they might even pay you to remove these pests and let you keep the meat to cook and sell to people.


 No.67378

>>67375

fucking deer, I hate deer so much

they get into your garbage and dont even eat nearly any of it, but go out of the way to spread it all over your lawn, they shit everywhere and I am 90% certain they get hit by cars on purpose because they value injuring humans over their own lives

if someone complains about you killing deer on their land it would devalue the land to many people, because then they all know there are a preponderance of vermin on the land


 No.67380

This thread got way off the original point on how to start your own company or some shit.

Can we get back onto how subjective value theory is horse shit and literally the best response I've got is 'wages are subjective too', when wages are a commodity just as much as burgers and therefore are not subject to different laws, as you guys seem to imply they are.

If your refutation to the OP is 'wages are subjective' or 'raw material values are subjective' then all I have to do is draw up another picture just in relation to the different thing you're talking about.


 No.67381

File: d40b7199fd11478⋯.png (1.15 MB, 1024x1112, 128:139, lifetimeoftoil.png)

>>67324

>Either you have a market, or you have no working economy.

Millions managed to get by without markets for thousands of years.


 No.67383

>>67381

When?

Was production and distribution as complex back then?


 No.67384

>>67381

The concept of a modern market that revolves around the international trade of goods and services using money as a means of exchange may have only existed for a few hundred of years, but there has always existed a market in its most basic form since the dawn of mankind and mans need to exchange goods with one another. There have been record of exchanges and trading ever since the invention of the first written language (Sumerian) at around the ballpark 5100 years ago and there is STRONG fucking evidence of trading since before then.

Try again.


 No.67393

>diamond that took hundreds of hours of labor to craft

>but the person buying it is an alien, who doesn't appreciate or care about precious metals

hmmm…🤔


 No.67398

Example in the above post was dumb and stupid, ignore it. Let me try again: the labor required to make a burger is $4, but everyone else in the society thinks it's worth $3. Then, it's worth $3 because you have nobody else to trade it with that makes it worth $4. A million workers can toil for hours to wind up the machine that will create the Great Big Turd, but no one wants the Great Big Turd for the cost of wages of those workers and the winding-up-machine, so you're forced to stick your "innate value" up your ass.


 No.67399

>>67299

There really need to be a objective unit of value that doesn't magicly inflate and deflate based on circumstances.

Otherwise there will allways be bickering in the place of economics and will never be regarded as a science because it simply isn't right now.


 No.67403

>>67399

>There really need to be a objective unit of value that doesn't magically inflate and deflate based on circumstances.

If we had that, then products wouldn't be distributed to the most valued source.


 No.67416

File: 264f5696b4f2421⋯.png (464.41 KB, 817x2000, 817:2000, subjective theory of value.png)

HOT TAKES


 No.67417

>>67416

fug

*rudimentary


 No.67425

>>67416

long and rambling like a /leftypol/ meme


 No.67427

>>67416

>I only value burgers at X

what? nigga, you don't buy a product at whatever you value it, you try to buy the cheapest existing version of that product at the highest possible quality that's BASED OFF OF ALREADY EXISTING PRICES. what are you smoking? what dimension are you living in?


 No.67428

>>67427

I only value pork loin at $1.99/lb, thus I only buy pork loin at $1.99/lb or a close value to that depending on how much I want pork loin.


 No.67429

>>67427

No? there is a minimum threshold of which people are willing to pay for any item, say, for example, a yacht. If someone valued a yacht at 5 hypershekels, than that is the maximum he would be willing to shell out for a yacht. Any more, and he's decided it's not worthy buying because he doesn't value it as being worth more than 5 hypershekels.


 No.67430

>>67425

Yeah, to take the format of the shitty edit OP posted to it's logical conclusion.


 No.67431

>>67428

>I only value pork loin at $1.99/lb

where did you get this number? you didn't make it up.


 No.67432

>>67429

but you don't get to just make up these prices. there's a minimum threshold of what a person is able to sell an item for. unless he's willing to lose money, or a yacht costs less than 5 hypershekels to make, then the transaction will not happen.


 No.67433

>>67432

Did.. did you read >>67416? The point is that if nobody is willing to buy it for that so-called "minimum threshold", as in the case of the Grand Turd, then you just need to recoup your losses as much as possible and sell it for whatever is closest to the so-called "minimum threshold" while admitting you fucked up, in that you made a product nobody wanted.


 No.67436

>>67432

Good thing he didn't say anything about prices, but value.


 No.67442

>>67399

>There really need to be a objective unit of value that doesn't magicly inflate and deflate based on circumstances.

Then make the world stop moving so circumstances never change. In that world exchanges will never happen.


 No.67444

>>67417

Stop sucking your own cock.


 No.67509

>>67444

STOP CORRECTING YOUR OWN TYPOS TWO SCOOPS TOO MANY BLUMPF RAARGH


 No.67513

>>67398

We're talking about food here. If everyone just doesn't employ labour power because they think it's too much then…no food will be produced.

A capitalist will own means of productiom and can only make money if they employ labour power on it. If they can't get it below $4, they will get it at $4, because otherwise they make no profit at all.


 No.67515

>>67416

Three things here

1. Marxists make the distinction between social and private labour. Private labour can be anything, but only certain types of private labour can ever become social labour, and that's labour that is useful to society. Only social labour holds value in the way described by Marxists. This is why the grand turd has no value, it has no use. Use is indeed subjective, before you try and pull a 'gotcha', but it makes no difference to the innate value of a commodity if the types of commodites that can have value are subjective. Also, the labour time that goves value is not the indivisual labour by one producer, it is the average across the whole of society. This is why if on average it takes 5 mins to make a burger, but you spend 10 mins, it is not double the value, it is the same value that has taken you double the time to make it should had. This is such basic shit and it annoys me I have to explain the 101 shit to any fucker who thinks they've 'BTFO' Marx.

2. If no one values food at it's cost of production, it doesn't matter, because if they don't buy food, they don't eat.

3. Even if no one ever values anything at it's cost of production, it's cost of production still exists. You have not dealt with this, nor have you dealth with the fact that without an objective referance point, supply and demand mean nothing.

Read Marx, tbh.


 No.67518

>>67515

>Also, the labour time that goves value is not the indivisual labour by one producer, it is the average across the whole of society. This is why if on average it takes 5 mins to make a burger, but you spend 10 mins, it is not double the value, it is the same value that has taken you double the time to make it should had. This is such basic shit and it annoys me I have to explain the 101 shit to any fucker who thinks they've 'BTFO' Marx.

Marx didn't explain at all why average labor and not individual labor should be relevant (and why not median labor?). Nor did he explain at all how you can actually calculate the average. That's as good as impossible to do for practical reasons, and it is impossible for at least one theoretical reason: How do you establish categories of goods? What average do you use, for example, if a doctor does a heart transplant on an elderly person suffering from haemophilia? Is his labor worth the two hours it takes on average to perform surgery, or the five hours that it takes for complicated surgery, or ten hours for heart transplants, or twenty for heart transplants on elder people suffering from haemophilia…? This isn't a problem you can solve by just looking at the data, it's a conceptual one, with widespread implications. Depending on which option you choose, you marginalize other groups. No doctor does heart surgery if he's being paid for two hours while working twelve hours, while his colleagues work half an hour to drive a bolt through someones broken big toe and get paid for two hours. Bonus points for having the heart surgeons drive up the average, though, thereby helping every doctor who works less than them, at their own expense.

Just in case you got all smug because I answered my own question above: No, I didn't. If you take the last option, the average labor required to perform a heart transplant on an elderly persons suffering from haemophilia, then this begs the question why we don't take even more factors into account. But if we do that, we eventually arrive at the point where our doctor is paid for the average amount of labor necessary to perform a heart transplant on 75-year old Gladis who already gave up the will to live, has haemophilia, and is slightly overweight. Good luck calculating the average for that, or not throwing away your distinction between private and social labor in the process.

>Read Marx, tbh.

Oh boy. We just had this topic a few days ago. If he goes on to read Marx, you'll tell him he shouldn't just read the Communist Manifesto, he must read the Critique of the Gotha Program. When he does that and still isn't convinced, it's all three volumes of the Capital. And after that, you'll either find more and more works of him, throw some Hegel in for good measure, or call him an asshole because he didn't try to understand Marx. And you still won't have read even a single libertarian treatise yourself.


 No.67520

>>67518

>Marx didn't explain at all why average labor and not individual labor should be relevant (and why not median labor?).

Marx didn't try to say what should be the case, he said what was the case.

>Nor did he explain at all how you can actually calculate the average.

That could be due to the fact he never set out to do so. If you wanna see it done though, here: http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/publications/ccm.IJUC07.pdf

>If he goes on to read Marx, you'll tell him he shouldn't just read the Communist Manifesto, he must read the Critique of the Gotha Program.

The manifesto is utter shit and pure rhetoric. Critque of the Gotha describes what Socialism might look like and so to you is irrelevant. I wouldn't recommend reading any volumes of Capital unless you've also read Hegel's Science of Logic.

Read Wage Labour and Capital and Value Price and Profit. Both are only 50 pages, and made for the average reader, rather than just academic like Capital was. They're both on their own enough to blow your ideology out of the water.


 No.67523

>>67520

>Read Wage Labour and Capital and Value Price and Profit. Both are only 50 pages, and made for the average reader, rather than just academic like Capital was. They're both on their own enough to blow your ideology out of the water.

even if the rest of your post is completely retarded I can commend you on this, this alone makes you a hundred times better then the average commie, I wished you had come to me sooner and saved me the time and frustration of manifesto and capital


 No.67526

>>67520

>Marx didn't try to say what should be the case, he said what was the case.

I used "should" in the same sense as someone who would ask you

>why should a rock fall down after you lifted it up?

Clearly, neither me nor that dumbass who doesn't understand gravity are talking about anything normative.

>That could be due to the fact he never set out to do so.

Then all his talk of paying workers according to the value of their labor was inconsequential and can be discarded. That leaves half of all communist pipe dreams dead in the water.

>If you wanna see it done though, here:

>Cockshot

>Cottrell

Jesus, these faggots again. I've already read their manifesto, the one where they didn't even cite Mises or call him by his full name while trying to refute him. I've checked another article from them, not sure if it is this one, where they actually calculate labor on the basis of profit but try to pretend that they aren't. Like with Marx, I'm not too eager to read them. I might do it some time, but for the next months, I've had my fix of bad economics.

>Read Wage Labour and Capital and Value Price and Profit. Both are only 50 pages, and made for the average reader, rather than just academic like Capital was. They're both on their own enough to blow your ideology out of the water.

Yeah, that's what I've been told about the Critique of the Gotha Program too. Maybe once I'm finished with the first volume of Capital and perhaps Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy.

>>67523

In all fairness, this.


 No.67529

>>67526

>Clearly, neither me nor that dumbass who doesn't understand gravity are talking about

anything normative.

Well my point was it's because that's just what happens in the real world, as Marx observed at least.

>Then all his talk of paying workers according to the value of their labor was inconsequential and can be discarded. That leaves half of all communist pipe dreams dead in the water.

If you think planning is the ultimate goal of Communism you're sorely mistaken. For a start, Marx sets out to explain the mechanisms of Capitalism and doesn't talk about planning at all to 'fix' Capitalism. The labour theory of value sets out at explaining equilibrium prices, and makes predictions about the whole Capitalist economy from there. All of these predictions, bar it's actual downfall, have so far come true. Unless you can point out a logical contradiction in the theory itself, it's reasonable to assume too that eventually, Capitalism will collapse on it's own. This is just science. The actual 'goal' of Communism is not some forced equality through price fixing, Socialism actually abolishes the concept of value altogether. The whole idea of central planning is advocated by specific sects of leftism, only for the short transition phase from Capitalism to Socialism. You can still be a Marxist and think central planning is a bad idea.

>Like with Marx, I'm not too eager to read them. I might do it some time, but for the next months, I've had my fix of bad economics.

Well idk what to tell you then. You're saying you can't calculate prices, I'm showing you something that says you can and you don't wanna read it. That's that until you do, I guess.

>Yeah, that's what I've been told about the Critique of the Gotha Program too.

Again that pamphlet just talks about how a Socialist society would look like, doesn't talk about Capitalism at all. Idk why you're reading it.

And, again, don't read Capital. It's a philosophical text before it's an economic one, you're not gonna understand shit if you haven't read and understood Hegel, and for Hegel you need Kant, and for Kant you kinda need Descartes.


 No.67540

>>67416

If it's impossible to produce food at any lower cost then either people pay up, all food companies go bust or everyone starves. Guess which reality we live in.


 No.67566

>>67515

>Use is indeed subjective, before you try and pull a 'gotcha', but it makes no difference to the innate value of a commodity if the types of commodities that can have value are subjective.

Forgive me if I don't grasp the the nuance of what you're trying to say here, but this doesn't make sense to me. If something subjectively doesn't have value (if it subjectively isn't useful), then isn't that changing the innate value of it, since.. it makes the innate value not exist? If there's some "innate value" statistic that exists independently of a commodity's.. ability to have value, then it isn't the value I'm talking about. That's just the cost of production, which I'm arguing doesn't necessarily determine the value, and you seem to be agreeing, albeit shifting around definitions and words.

>Also, the labour time that goves value is not the indivisual labour by one producer, it is the average across the whole of society. This is why if on average it takes 5 mins to make a burger, but you spend 10 mins, it is not double the value, it is the same value that has taken you double the time to make it should had. This is such basic shit and it annoys me I have to explain the 101 shit to any fucker who thinks they've 'BTFO' Marx.

Then imagine that a million hours of a million laborers is the most efficient possible labor+time required to make the Grand Turd. Still a turd. Before you make a bad argument and gloat about think about how easily it could argued against.

>Even if no one ever values anything at it's cost of production, it's cost of production still exists.

Okay, so what? We're arguing about the objectivity of value, not the cost of production. If the cost of production doesn't determine the value than it doesn't matter if it exists. I mean, of course it does, no shit.

>Read Marx, tbh.

Only if you read Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk.


 No.67567

>>67515

>2. If no one values food at it's cost of production, it doesn't matter, because if they don't buy food, they don't eat.

Comic doesn't imply that. As long as they value at least one type of edible object that will keep them not dead at it's cost of production it doesn't matter. They just don't value the burger at it's cost of production.


 No.67568

>>67319

>What animal? You have animals lying around? Should I go find one? Oh wait all farms are private property.

Just get it from the same source that the employer you don't want to profit off you gets it from.


 No.67572

>>67529

>If you think planning is the ultimate goal of Communism you're sorely mistaken. For a start, Marx sets out to explain the mechanisms of Capitalism and doesn't talk about planning at all to 'fix' Capitalism.

I never said anything to that effect.

>The labour theory of value sets out at explaining equilibrium prices, and makes predictions about the whole Capitalist economy from there. All of these predictions, bar it's actual downfall, have so far come true. Unless you can point out a logical contradiction in the theory itself, it's reasonable to assume too that eventually, Capitalism will collapse on it's own. This is just science.

Most anti-capitalist sentiments come from the middle class and not the workers, workers are steadily growing richer, class consciousness is a ridiculous concept, he never even defined class, workers are a dwindling class, he never defended his LTV against utility-based conceptions, he doesn't even talk about capitalism so much as about mercantilism, and his theory of historical determinism has already been refuted by history itself as slavery and feudalism weren't ended by a revolution from a marginalized class. Those are the false premises he argues from.

>The actual 'goal' of Communism is not some forced equality through price fixing, Socialism actually abolishes the concept of value altogether. The whole idea of central planning is advocated by specific sects of leftism, only for the short transition phase from Capitalism to Socialism. You can still be a Marxist and think central planning is a bad idea.

Call it as you want, it cannot work. Without prices, you cannot rationally allocate capital goods. So I don't care that much if "true" socialists want a centrally planned economy, syndicalism, fairy dust or whatever else you have, it cannot work.

>Well idk what to tell you then. You're saying you can't calculate prices, I'm showing you something that says you can and you don't wanna read it. That's that until you do, I guess.

You could sum up their argument if you want. I don't expect that, unless you want to press the issue further. Again, I've read a treatise and at least one other article by Cockshott and Cottrell and I don't trust them. I stumble over ten articles every day that might be interesting to read, so then why read something from two pseudo-economists who already fucked up before? And these aren't some small errors they made, it's them criticizing an economist that they apparently haven't read at all.

>Again that pamphlet just talks about how a Socialist society would look like, doesn't talk about Capitalism at all. Idk why you're reading it.

For the single reason that some socialist suggested I read it because it supposedly btfo'd capitalism.

>And, again, don't read Capital. It's a philosophical text before it's an economic one, you're not gonna understand shit if you haven't read and understood Hegel, and for Hegel you need Kant, and for Kant you kinda need Descartes.

I understand enough so far to know that Marx is arguing from false premises.


 No.67584

>>67292

I think you may not understand value as a subjective concept. There is a fundamental difference between the resources needed to produce something and the value of that thing produced. 'Value' does not exist in the real world, there is nothing with set value. Something does not gain value to a person because of the amount of labor put into creating it. Value fluctuates and changes according to the desires and whims of the individual and with considerations of other things that have higher personal value. I may buy a burger because I value my time I would spend to make food at home, or I may make food at home if I consider the time saved from not having to cook to be lower. It gets more complicated when taking into account all the various multitude of things that I judge for their value when making a decision each day, but they are all subjective. I wouldn't value a golden statue of a turd very high, despite the many resources that would need to be expended to create such a thing.

You also make an error by making the assumption that producers set the value of the product. As I've said, the materials and labor that go into making a product have no affect on it's value to the potential buyer of the product. Instead the producer of the product weighs the cost of his personal labor and any capital that may be required in producing it versus what others may value their product. If it were possible for a producer to determine the value of something, a hamburger perhaps, they would certainly determine it's value to be extremely high. However, producers do not set the value, it is the consumer who does. If the value of the product is lower than the cost in making it, it shall not be made, or at least will soon stop being made.

I hope now you understand now how value works as a subjective measurement of a product that is wholly divorced from the real resources used in its creation. Please do not accost this board with your bait again.




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