865b98 No.622076
>The $13 billion Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier, the U.S. Navy’s costliest warship, was delivered last year without elevators needed to lift bombs from below deck magazines for loading on fighter jets.
>Previously undisclosed problems with the 11 elevators for the ship built by Huntington Ingalls Industries Inc. add to long-standing reliability and technical problems with two other core systems – the electromagnetic system to launch planes and the arresting gear to catch them when they land.
>The Advanced Weapons Elevators, which are moved by magnets rather than cables, were supposed to be installed by the vessel’s original delivery date in May 2017. Instead, final installation was delayed by problems including four instances of unsafe “uncommanded movements” since 2015, according to the Navy.
>While progress was being made on the carrier’s other flawed systems, the elevator is “our Achilles heel,” Navy Secretary Richard Spencer told reporters in August without providing details.
https://archive.is/l2Swp
https://web.archive.org/web/20181102133053/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-02/costliest-carrier-was-delivered-without-elevators-to-lift-bombs
d204df No.622082
>>622076
>>The Advanced Weapons Elevators, which are moved by magnets rather than cables
So just being fancy for the sake of being fancy? But why tho?
b77ebc No.622083
>>622082
>So just being fancy for the sake of being fancy?
>But why tho?
Can you imagine what that did to the total cost of the project? You know, the cost that you paid for in your taxes, that's why.
cd1730 No.622084
>>622082
I've been on a rollercoaster that uses a similar technology and the speed it can go from standstill is incredible. I haven't seen these newer elevators in operation but it probably goes twice as fast or faster than the one in this video while using less room and power while having fewer moving parts that need maintenance.
It's money well spent and the sort of technology foreign countries won't have on their ships for another decade or two.
cd1730 No.622086
>>622084
Oh looking into this a bit more it's only being used for smaller weapon elevators and not the ones used for planes.
>FEC’s Advanced Weapons Elevator demonstrates a 24,000-pound lift capacity, with 150% overload capacity. Designed to move at 150 feet per minute, it accelerates to full speed in 2 seconds. The state-of-the-art elevators increase capacity over 200% and speed by 50% compared to the legacy elevators.
It needs to know the weight of what's on it in order to function safely at those speeds which complicates things.
1d6d01 No.622090
>Every US branch spends an absurd amount of money and time on things that don't work.
If the F-35 is the AF's and this carrier is the Navy's then what is the Marine's, Army, and Coastguard's equivalent?
abefde No.622091
>>622090
The Army has the Bradley, the Marines have the Osprey and the Coast Guard are responsible and decent people who may as well not exist.
c7a5f4 No.622092
>>622090
>Army
Bradley
>Marines
F-35B
>Coastguard
>Funding
417d30 No.622093
What was wrong with old elevators? Did they work too well and reliably?
d5c93b No.622095
>>622093
They had no magnets.
8c64cc No.622100
>>622076
>bombs […] for loading on fighter jets.
>bombs on fighter jets
>bombs
>fighter
>>622086
>It needs to know the weight of what's on it in order to function safely
>Pvt. Huckleberry forgets his wrench on a tray of 12x500Ib bombs
>enters 12x500Ibs into pad
>software automatically adds weight of tray it detected
>scale in the elevator weighs the entire assembly to 1Ib of accuracy to confirm nothing goes wrong
>wrench is only 0.2Ib
>scale doesn't detect it
>software gives a thumbs up
>Pvt gives a thumbs us
>lift starts moving
>weighs 0.2Ibs too much
>lift fails because 0.2 pounds too much
>12x500Ib bombs, a tray and a wrench fall 30 meter into the ocean
>Pvt says that he did everything right
>nobody can detect a fault
>everything seems OK
>lifting operations haled
>carrier has to return to dock for inspection
>in the mean time sailors have to manually lift up bombs individually using winches
>billions of dollars spent retrograding the lifts to motor control
>Pvt is chewed out for losing his wrench
>>622090
I am more interested in the super projects the space force can come up with.
d97251 No.622101
>>622090
F-35 three service fuckup. Crayon eaters, chair force and navy are all involved. Army and air force were involved with Osprey, but army bailed out on the first sign of trouble in 80's. For 'muhreens their purely own fuck up would be expeditionary fighting vehicle. For army Abrams is arguably bigger fuckup than Bradley, just due to using turbine. For navy Littoral Combat Ship was far bigger mistake than Ford-class. USAF has had plenty of their own white elephants, B-1B and B-2 contain plenty of stupidity as programs.
For coasties, their stupidest piece of equipment are C-27J Spartans they inherited from chair force and army.
>>622095
But those worked without fucking magic.
c9e290 No.622108
>>622086
>It needs to know the weight
How about they integrate a couple of load cells into it.
Measuring weight is not exactly rocket science.
You could even get by without, since you can determine the weight of the platform by the amount of effort it takes to move it.
9658bb No.622111
>$13,000,000,000 ship that can be sunk with a $250,000 missile
Just fucking why
60c553 No.622112
>name ship after unelected asshole who destroyed responsible defense contractors by stacking them with insane fees via ITAR
>ship sucks and is over budget
The U.S.S. Calvin Coolidge would be underbudget and ahead of schedule.
1726f2 No.622113
>>622111
It's even better if you conside that it carries $100,000,000 airplanes that can be destroyed by missiles that are also at least an order-of-magnitude cheaper.
1badea No.622122
>>622090
>Marines
The replacement for their main Amphibious Vehicle is a running joke.
44ac14 No.622126
>>622090
>Implying the coast guard gets funding
bba1f9 No.622129
>>622112
People will either forget it exists, or constantly shit on it for being too sensible and reliable, instead of constantly doing retarded shit.
417d30 No.622149
How about making the whole re-arming procedure completeöy robotic while at it?
38466a No.622163
Does one really need a magnetic elevator to vertically catapult planes into the air at 9g?
>>622100
>what are fighter-bombers
ae4fca No.622186
>>622076
>“uncommanded movements”
In other words pic related.
What the fuck is wrong with America? Can we ally with someone else?!?
f80fa5 No.622190
>>622186
Because no one else wants to take you in and we're obligated to protect you because we're attached by the hip. Now shut your yap and drink your malk, daddy America needs to find a way to combine two super magnets into a perpetual moving engine to power a billion dollar helicopter carriers all the while cooled by downgraded jet fuel reserves for cost saving reasons.
60c553 No.622216
>>622129
>People will either forget it exists
So it would be the first working stealth ship!
ae4fca No.622249
>>622190
Fuck that I'm allying with the ant people.
9185b6 No.622262
>>622076
Sure the F-35 Merkel can perform the role of elevator for them.
b3ebc2 No.622287
>>622101
The turbine engine is one of the greatest assets of the Abrams. The only problem with it was fuel consumption during idle which, while it took an embarrassingly long time to get an APU that wasn't retarded and mounted on the back of the tank over the tail light, they did finally get right with one that sat on the back of the turret bustle stowage rack. While on a road march or in combat maneuvers, the turbine engine is more efficient than a conventional piston or diesel engine in terms of weight, horse power and YES fuel efficiency per ton. Not to mention that its nearly silent and leaves no diesel plume or dust cyclone behind it.
>>622111
Those are nice numbers but an argument like that is like saying why bother with training your men and giving them more than a sharpened stick when they can be killed by a child with a hand grenade?
>>622249
>being a literally soulless gook that isn't influenced by chaos and doesn't fight in melee
Christ even Ai's created by the Imperium can be corrupted by chaos because they are more alive than the tau.
d47c5c No.622295
>>622287
Orks can’t be corrupted by Chaos either
But that’s mostly because any Ork that openly worships a god besides Gork & Mork is going to be krumped something fierce by the other orks
1c6f57 No.622313
>>622287
>Not to mention that its nearly silent and leaves no diesel plume or dust cyclone behind it.
Isn't that kinda self defeating when it has an infrared-signature BEHIND cover?
c9e290 No.622317
>>622287
>the turbine engine is more efficient than a conventional piston
How come that if we compare the M1 abrams with the Leopard 2, which have similar weight, power and power to weight, we come to the exact opposite conclusion.
1badea No.622321
>>622287
>the turbine engine is more efficient than a conventional piston or diesel engine in terms of weight, horse power and YES fuel efficiency per ton.
>This is what ameritards actually believe.
ON PAPER and on paper only.
A gas turbine is more efficient if and only if it run at full regime meaning your tank only guzzle less fuel at it's top cruise speed.
Guess what? Since it's not a fucking helicopter THEY NEVER REACH FULL REGIME unless you're on perfectly flat plain and on a terrain of perfectly even resistance.
It's a tank made to run on a highway…
Add the maintenance nightmare (need to stop every 4 hours in dusty conditions), the simple fact that the fleet of fuel trucks following his fuel-guzzling majesty simply CAN'T go that fast on rough terrain, the fact that you start fire on the run if you're in grassland (lol let alone the thermal signature), the fact that you run on HIGHLY FLAMMABLE JET FUEL, etc… and a diesel engine end up being so much better at everything a gas turbine can do (except arctic operations).
5a4062 No.622322
>>622287
>The turbine engine is one of the greatest assets of the Abrams. The only problem with it was fuel consumption during idle which, while it took an embarrassingly long time to get an APU that wasn't retarded and mounted on the back of the tank over the tail light, they did finally get right with one that sat on the back of the turret bustle stowage rack. While on a road march or in combat maneuvers, the turbine engine is more efficient than a conventional piston or diesel engine in terms of weight, horse power and YES fuel efficiency per ton. Not to mention that its nearly silent and leaves no diesel plume or dust cyclone behind it.
The problem with turbine isn't just idle, even if idling is the biggest problem, turbine is basically as efficient at full throttle as it is at any lower throttle setting. Reasoning behind turbine goes to early 60's. Back then US Army determined that turbines were the way for the future. In reality issues with turbo-diesel engines were dealt with in 60's and 70's, turbo lag was dealt with variable vane turbochargers to make 'em manageable. Advantages gas turbine offers with smaller size are offset by extra fuel those need, extra fuel needed to feed the turbine more than takes up space needed for more efficient engine. This where development of Abrams began as MBT-70 had been abandoned. I suspect gas turbine stayed on Abrams because people doing current work on it were serving under people that had determined advantages of turbines that mostly didn't exist at that point. In final rounds fuel efficiency had been determined to be an non-factor because US Army would be fighting in close proximity of their fuel depots in Germany.
In virtually every tank trials since 80's done by western countries all other features of Abrams have always been completely overshadowed by extra logistical burden its massive fuel consumption causes. One of two things applies all export customers of Abrams. They either get those at expense of US taxpayers or they are involved in propping up petro-dollar. Only exception is Australia and they bought only relatively small amount of tanks, their rationale is because if they ever need more tanks, they can get almost instant delivery because US stockpile of tanks exceeds US needs for tanks.
When we get into initial model of Abrams, it is probably the most perfect example of US Army getting equipment that they know to be defective. They had to buy it then or risk getting entire program cancelled. As result M1IP and M1A1 followed relatively soon after.
5a4062 No.622329
>>622321
>Guess what? Since it's not a fucking helicopter THEY NEVER REACH FULL REGIME unless you're on perfectly flat plain and on a terrain of perfectly even resistance.
>It's a tank made to run on a highway…
It isn't rough terrain that is biggest problem when it comes to running at full throttle all the time. It is other traffic, in your marching column and general lack of information what the fuck is going on. Has the other company or battalion reached starting point for the next phase of attack, so we don't get outflanked. Tanks run on roads for most of the time, probably ones that are actually highways, not freeways/motorways, but actual highways.
>the fact that you run on HIGHLY FLAMMABLE JET FUEL
Jet fuel is just as flammable as diesel and less flammable than gasoline. Gas turbine is potentially more flexible when it comes to fuel, but it isn't worth higher fuel consumption.
830468 No.622337
>>622321
No one in their right mind argues this, and you are retatded. They use those engines so they can accept any fuel type, if fuel is seized from the enemy it can always power the fleet regardless.
73d42e No.622338
>>622337
Bruh, all American military is retarded. So are our troops.
We're mainly good for letting others do the dirty work, then swooping in at the last minute, winning a firefight, and taking all the glory.
73d42e No.622339
>>622338
*all American military tech
1badea No.622353
>>622337
>They use those engines so they can accept any fuel type
No they use those engines because Lycoming lost (all) the bids on helicopter engines and the top brass and politicians decided they needed two companies to produce gas turbines so that GE wouldn't be in a monopoly position.
Suddenly gas turbine engines became miracle engines that have great fuel efficiency (if you never need torque), can run on any fuel (if you want to have to completely take them apart and scrub them with a toothbrush after 24h of use), is super silent (because it's well known that the fucking thing weighting 60 ton on tracks main noise is the engine, otherwise it would be moving silently) and bring back your loved ones to life.
So they bought some to put them in tanks.
Whether or not they worked well has never even impacted the decision.
After the gulf war and all the problems with them were clear as day the US army petitioned multiple time to change them to diesel as MTU was offering an off the shelf design for them for export.
The Army brass agreed and recognized it should change to diesel and it was supposed to with be an integral part of the A2 upgrade.
And every time it's shot down for the exact same reason: Abrams engines are what keeps the light running on a US engine manufacture that isn't GE.
1badea No.622359
>>622353
And before you wonder the original XM1 were equipped with the 1470HP Continental diesel engine they used on the MBT-70 that had every bit as much performance as the AGT 1500 if not even more and was virtually the same as the German MTUs…
be690c No.622361
Who the fuck is in charge of granting military industrial contracts? It has to be jews, I mean, how else do you get so many billions with enough grease on top for graft or kickbacks or whatever only to steal even more, pocket the rest and you can't even build proper elevators?
I wish I could personally torture these people to death, we should be on the fucking moon right now with a space elevator with all the money these eil bastards just waste.
856eaa No.622363
In realty who in Charge of all the money World Wide.. think
Who prints the money?
Who handles the money?
What really ha control of Fed Reserve?
5a4062 No.622365
>>622337
>They use those engines so they can accept any fuel type, if fuel is seized from the enemy it can always power the fleet regardless.
US Army now runs it only on jet fuel. The idea behind multi-fuel engine requirements was that they could run tanks and trucks with both diesel and jet fuel. Running diesel engine with jet fuel generally increases lubrication oil consumption, but it can be done. Running gas turbine with diesel increases fouling and will require more maintenance. It wasn't about captured enemy fuel, it was about being able to support ground forces from fuel depots originally intended for air forces. The thing is while turbine requires less maintenance, any maintenance on field conditions is extremely limited.
That is before we take cost of engine into account. Turbines are more expensive than diesels.
>>622352
>No they use those engines because Lycoming lost (all) the bids on helicopter engines
Lycomings gas turbine side is now part of Honeywell. They still produce engines for small regional airliners, business jets and training fighters and they still produce engines for Chinooks and plenty of smaller helicopters.
>Abrams engines are what keeps the light running on a US engine manufacture that isn't GE.
Pratt & Whitney still exists.
>After the gulf war and all the problems with them were clear as day the US army petitioned multiple time to change them to diesel as MTU was offering an off the shelf design for them for export.
One funniest things here is that US actually manufactured that MTU883 engine on license. They just did it to export it to Israel, who get those for Merkava IV's as military aid.
616ec3 No.622378
>>622112
>>622129
I could only imagine what the U.S.S. James K. Polk would be like.
60c553 No.622379
>>622313
No. Even in advanced militaries that kind of tech is on very few soldiers, and even then requires active searching. Limiting who can notice your tank to a tiny fraction of the enemy soldiers, and only if they're actually looking for it, is a huge advantage.
ccdb6f No.622390
>>622378
separating the yucatan from mexico southern US clay and strapping on some engines.
1bbaa9 No.622394
>>622082
Gotta justify that defense budget, man.
1badea No.622468
>>622379
>Even in advanced militaries that kind of tech is on very few soldiers, and even then requires active searching.
>this is what ameritard believe.
ALL soviet and Chinese tanks including old as fuck T-54 had IR imagers.
In fact for decades the soviets (and soviet armed armies) had a clear night operation advantage until the mid-70's because of how widespread that shit was and how it wasn't in NATO arsenals until the 2nd gen started to be more widespread.
The same is true for 3rd gen IR imagers (AKA: "thermals"), the soviet had tech similar to what was on western tanks the problem was that by then they didn't have the money to fit them on everything so only the commanders versions of the T-80's got them at first, then on T-80U but the economical crisis of the 80's made it impossible to set up proper mass production chains.
Paying export customers in the 90's all got them however, including Cyprus which was when we realized that 80's soviet stuff wasn't worse than the same era Leo2/M1 thermal sights.
China is the same, except they were set up for mass production and all of their Type-90 (which they didn't adopt but was widely exported to shitty 3rd world countries. We're talking the guys with no money to buy slightly upgraded second hand soviet shit here: Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc…) all have thermal imagers that are actually a bit better than the last soviet ones. They off course retrofitted their Type 80 with them as a mid-life upgrade (which became know Type 96).
So that was the situation in the 90's… 20+ year ago.
In this day and age FLIR makes fucking phone add-ons!
To find a working tank on the planet that doesn't have thermal imaging you need to go to the real shitholes like sub-Saharan Africa or places that have been at war since the Soviet Union crumbled.
ae4fca No.622543
>>622287
The problem is that the death of the carrier is a certainty when fighting any comparable foe, whereas some kid tossing a grenade just right is a hail mary.
>muh abrahams
>this engine is so great we need an nother engine
lol
>>622379
You're basically admitting that US military is built to fight pic related and can't handle peer wars.
b3ebc2 No.622557
>>622313
Is there a magical engine that runs stone cold?
>>622321
Seeing that the tank was made to use the German autobahns to quickly charge to the front line of western Europe, it seems fair enough that it will run best on highways.
This is the bullshit that everyone does whenever turbine engines are brought up. They list problems found with literally every kind of engine on earth and try to make it sound like its exclusively a turbine engine problem.
<the air filters clog
>its literally standard procedure to flush filters every four hours in high dust conditions for everything from humvees to generators
<it needs trucks to supply it
>so does literally every other tank or army in general
<it can set brush on fire
>a dirtbike or an ATV can do the exact same thing
>its got a thermal signature
<is there a magical tank out there that doesn't? Fuck, diesel and piston engine tanks were lighting gooks who climbed ontop of them in the wrong places on fire in korea
<gas is flammable!
>what kind of magical wonder juice does the rest of the world's tanks run on that doesn't burn?
>>622468
>severely limited range double edged sword IR searchlights are the same as thermal imaging
I guess they had such a huge advantage with thermals that the Iraqis didn't get their asses completely handed to them in the gulf wars. Or are you suddenly going to say that that's a sub-Saharan Africa tier country?
>>622543
You do realize that most tanks have an APU regardless of main power plant right? And so much shit has to line up in redfor's favor for an ASM to hit a carrier it may as well be a hail mary. This also goes into the fantasy that they would be easy to sink and would go down in just one hit. What kind of "comparable foe" are we talking about here anyway? Russia sank their last Kara class heavy cruiser in the Ukraine to block off a harbor because it was clearly combat ready.
a09577 No.622601
>>622557
Genuine curiosity, if turbines are so great why is the Abrams the only major tank to use one? It's not a cost issue, the Leclerc is the most expensive tank in the world and it uses a diesel engine. Abrams is still shit-tier for not using an autoloader
>And so much shit has to line up in redfor's favor for an ASM to hit a carrier it may as well be a hail mary.
But it's not like you'll be slowly sending one ASM at a time towards the carrier with lots of forewarning; one missile is four orders of magnitude cheaper than one carrier and you'll be firing more than one.
870b2e No.622603
>>622557
>Is there a magical engine that runs stone cold?
There was a project during the cold war (Britain iirc) to use stored refrigerant to temporarily mask the heat signature of tanks to avoid detection. It was scrapped because it was more effective to just use a fan and dilute the exhaust until it wasn't noticeable.
But no, most diesels run far colder than a turbine and have far less thermal signature to give them away. Face facts, this is a weakness of the M1.
>I guess they had such a huge advantage with thermals that the Iraqis didn't get their asses completely handed to them in the gulf wars. Or are you suddenly going to say that that's a sub-Saharan Africa tier country?
The Iraqis were building their own t-72 clones, so no, they did not have any of the equipment that you normally got on a T-72. Also, the 90s was a very long time ago. You can get passive thermal sensors at walmart now.
>And so much shit has to line up in redfor's favor for an ASM to hit a carrier it may as well be a hail mary.
>What is the 2002 millennium challenge
>What is the Tu-160
I'll take "things burgers like to pretend don't real" for $600, Alex.
b3ebc2 No.622611
>>622601
The T80, Russia's best MBT had a turbine engine until the wall fell and they switched to a multi-fuel diesel because the Ukraine held all the tooling and spare parts for the turbines. The Swedish S tank actually pioneered the gas turbine powered tank and no one seems to ever bitch and moan about that vehicle.
>>622603
All tanks are so hot that its obvious that they are around. Even if the engine is somehow not showing up on FLIR, the running gear will be. Its a retarded thing to call a weakness because it affects literally all ground vehicles. They get hot.
THERE IT IS! EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH HAD THERMALS OUT THE ASS 20 YEARS AGO UNTIL YOU BRING UP AN EXAMPLE THAT THEY DIDN'T! You know Iraq had tons of genuine T-54s and BMPs that according to you, should have seen the abrams clear as day but instead when they came under fire from them, they couldn't see them and thought they were under air assault because they couldn't see or HEAR them?
>what was a min-maxed game by a cheeser who called in Iran's entire missile stockpile over a faster than light motorcycle messenger and then used suicide fishing trawlers that the ships in the simulation weren't programed to engage because they were civilians for $400
>what is an E-2 hawkeye and the constant combat air patrol a carrier provides for $500
This is the biggest problem faggots that suck off ASMs make. They think of a carrier as nothing but a giant floating defenseless target that redfor always knows the exact location of, and not something that's got an entire network of aircraft working to defend and also conceal it. You cant hit what you cant see, and it will take a LOT of effort to even locate the carrier group with constant air harassment and anti submarine patrols.
1e181c No.622615
>>622543
Delicious kuruminha plz post more
1badea No.622631
>>622557
>Or are you suddenly going to say that that's a sub-Saharan Africa tier country?
It's worse, they had mudslimes driving those.
The same people that ganged up three times on the jews in the late 60's and early 70's with an insane numerical advantage AND a clear tech advantage (ATGMs, night vision, integrated AA) and still got their shit pushed miserably (with Centurions that weren't safe from WWII SU-100, blowing up HUNDREDS of T-62 when by the jew and latter US reports those were equivalent to better than even M60).
Mudslimes turn everything into shit, that's the real power of Islam.
a09577 No.622645
>>622611
You didn't actually answer my question–if turbines are so great, why do so many current-gen MBTs still use diesel engines? Could you summarize the pros and cons of each instead of just getting defensive?
>You cant hit what you cant see, and it will take a LOT of effort to even locate the carrier group with constant air harassment and anti submarine patrols.
Even if you can't pinpoint the exact location immediately, a carrier group doesn't exactly leave a small footprint. And the thing is, if the enemy's carrier is constantly on the move and staying out of sight to avoid ASM launches, then the missiles have done their job anyways. Their destructive potential, even if not realized, has served to prevent the carrier group from committing to a major attack and allow its movements to be controlled by the enemy, which is a strategic advantage.
a3dc65 No.622646
>>622557
>Seeing that the tank was made to use the German autobahns to quickly charge to the front line of western Europe, it seems fair enough that it will run best on highways.
The problem with gas turbine as tank engine is that it operates best in conditions that doesn't exist in practice. In practice tanks almost never travel at full throttle, almost always military convoys tend to be slowed down by lack of information and coordination.
>This is the bullshit that everyone does whenever turbine engines are brought up.
One of those thing is really major issue, air filters and non line of sight thermal signature are only minor issues, both related to how much air turbine draws in, so they might have clean filters more often and get more easily detected in certain conditions without direct line of sight.
>it needs trucks to supply it
The Big issue is the insane amount of fuel turbine hogs and that means extra supply trucks complicating logistics. That means much heavier load on logistics on offensive operations, especially when it comes to expeditionary warfare halfway around the world.
>I guess they had such a huge advantage with thermals that the Iraqis didn't get their asses completely handed to them in the gulf wars. Or are you suddenly going to say that that's a sub-Saharan Africa tier country?
Reading comprehension. Prevalence of night vision has changed over time. But generally there isn't major difference between Arab countries and sub-Saharan Africa when it comes to shitty military procurement decisions, both are retarded but in different ways, most in Arabs spending a fuck ton of more money on gear they don't know how to use. Niggers usually fail in spectacular way with shitty equipment, Arabs tend to do it with more modern equipment. Just look at what is going on in Yemen. Saudis have the best equipment money can buy and utterly fail utilize it properly.
I'm generally amused over how much burgers defend Abrams. As whole it is probably bigger fuckup than Bradley.
>>622601
>Genuine curiosity, if turbines are so great why is the Abrams the only major tank to use one?
T-80 also used it. Turbine is the main reason why it is far less common than T-72/T-90-series tanks. Even late versions of T-80 ditched the turbine in favor of opposed piston diesel that was further development of T-64's engine.
>It's not a cost issue, the Leclerc is the most expensive tank in the world and it uses a diesel engine.
Leclerc's pricetag is inflated by low production numbers driving unit costs up and different accounting practices. If US would calculate costs of Abrams same way, it would be more expensive than its current official pricetag is at the moment.
Leclerc also has a sort of clusterfuck of gas turbine as engine. It has small gas tubine that acts as APU while not running the engine and it acts as turbocharger while running the engine. Wärtsilä (a Finnish diesel manufacturer) bought SACM (manufacturer of Leclercs engine) in 1993. Leclercs engine is ironically a rare case of defense contractor shilling against their own product, Wärtsilä has lobbied for MTU883. Tank engine division of former SACM is a loss generating business, train and marine diesel parts of business were and still are profitable. French military refused to change engine on later batches of Leclerc due to national pride and arrogance, MTU engine was and still is far superior powerplant. If and when Leclercs replacement will be delayed, extending spare parts contracts for the engine will probably end up being extremely expensive for French Army.
>>622611
>The T80, Russia's best MBT had a turbine engine until the wall fell and they switched to a multi-fuel diesel because the Ukraine held all the tooling and spare parts for the turbines.
The diesel version of T-80 was the one produced in Ukraine. Latest T-72 version has always been just as good as contemporary T-80 version when it comes to performance and far better tank if costs are included in the equation. Having three different tanks with essentially equal performance was one of biggest Soviet fuckups during cold war. Production of T-64 should have been terminated on the moment T-72 entered service and T-64's should have been relegated to second line units. T-80 should have never existed if people in charge of SU had any sense.
>The Swedish S tank actually pioneered the gas turbine powered tank and no one seems to ever bitch and moan about that vehicle.
Might have something to do with the fact that all S tanks are in museum. Dual powerplant and transmission setup of S tank was so great success that they didn't even consider anything similar on their later tank and armored fighting vehicle projects.
>Its a retarded thing to call a weakness because it affects literally all ground vehicles. They get hot.
Turbine powered tanks gets even hotter.
1badea No.622649
>>622646
>MTU engine was and still is far superior powerplant
Technically it's not, it's just a way more cost effective solution.
The SACM engine use the gas turbine as a supercharger allowing Leclerc to move from to go from 0 to 32 km/h under 5 seconds IIRC with a direct transmission of power to the track, meaning it beats a sport car in the first second of acceleration.
Of course the downside is it's super finicky and super expensive, but if it's been tuned properly on paper it means you can dodge incoming tank shells in between the moment they're shot and the moment they land.
In practical use it's dubious you could actually pull it off obviously and it certainly doesn't justify the insane cost of building and maintaining a gas turbine just as a turbo when a regular turbo isn't as good (but isn't that worse either) but so much simpler…
It's a typical thing that is a great feature of engineering and technology but which has little gain in practical use.
ae4fca No.622700
>>622557
>in the ukraine
On it.
>>622611
>t80
>best
It failed them in the Chechnyan war, the maintenance regimen couldnt keep upwith the demand that a tank has to be available 24/7 in an insurgency scenario. Thats why that powerplant was abandoned, not magic ukrainian engines that somehow Russia cant replicate despite having plans, and the tooling and factories for turboshafts.
188286 No.622704
>>622700
>in the ukraine
>On it
If anyone's wondering what the hell does this retarded leafpost supposed to mean: there's a special olympics related to the russcuck language whether they should say "на Украине" ("on Ukraine") since it's more melodic and being used in a few other similar cases or "в Украине" (a regular "in Ukraine") since it's overall more common. I cannot recall such olympics in English language tho, which means there's a possibility our famous putin-shilling leaf is actually either a russcuck with VPN or an ethnic russcuck living in leafland.
4319be No.622713
In the book I am reading by General F.W Von Mellenthin, he said on the Ukraine not in Ukraine.
188286 No.622717
>>622713
I still fail to find any existing special olympics in English language on that topic. This is exclusively Eastern Slavic thing, even if our fellow leaf can prove himself living in Leafland he's still a russcuck speaker and an ethnic russcuck.
9563ae No.622718
>>622704
>>622717
>special olympics
Is this a dumb new word filter or am I having a stroke?
806cae No.622724
>>622718
It's a common term in Russian language of today. On the internet it is, at least.
188286 No.622725
1badea No.622728
>>622700
>>622611
>T-80.
T-80s are still in use in Russia northernmost tank units because one clear advantage gas turbine have over diesel is for arctic operations as less susceptible to breaking due to thermal shock.
The Houtis in Yemen use T-80s more than Ukraine. As far as anyone knows Ukraine is the one place that DOESN'T use their T-80s, they use T-64s.
What little T-80s they have that work they try to export them to line their po to finance an upgrade of their facilities.
Pic related are the ones newly upgraded from the 200th Separate Motor Rifle Brigade (Northern Fleet, Pechenga).
Yes, Russian fleets have mechanized brigades, don't ask.
>>622704
Or he just like to trigger you by reminding you your country names literally means "march" (of Russia) because even your country name is related to Russia.
>>622718
>Is this a dumb new word filter?
It's a dumb poster, same difference.
925ecc No.622733
>>622704
>>622717
Russians who speak a lot of English tend to do it as well.
>country names literally means "march" (of Russia)
Literal translation is "edge," but yeah, this is true.
188286 No.622739
>>622728
>"march" (of Russia) because even your country name is related to Russia.
You are so miserable you managed to fuck up 2 times with these words. First of all, I've been refuting this nonsense multiple times already proving "край" is pan-Slavic land-related word and won't be distracted from the leaf revealing his real identity. Second of all, russcuck country's name is in fact related to us since "rus" were svear merchants assimilated in Kyiv.
So, who is mister leaf? Can he at least provide some photos from leafistan?
3180a3 No.622743
>>622739
Ah yes so well done was your refutation that you still saw the need to reassert in sterling terms the extent to which your anus has prolapsed from whatever slight the slavs inflicted on your ego.
Seriously I get being assmad about history or whatever the fuck is going on, but you're getting five alarm booty blasted on a shitty butanese basket weaving exchange. Why on earth do you think it matters that some rando somewhere in the world is being edgy about your country on the bleeding internet? Why the fuck are you so hung up on this shit on a platform that has no real world influence?
82ec5d No.622745
Have you noticed that production quality of all sorts of things dropped recently? I'm not talking about military technology only, but about everyday consumer market products too.
abefde No.622746
>>622743
>Why on earth do you think it matters that some rando somewhere in the world is being edgy about your country on the bleeding internet? Why the fuck are you so hung up on this shit on a platform that has no real world influence?
He's a Ukrainian and their people have nothing left except trying to prove they aren't Russians. Just look on and politely stifle your laughter as he continues to shriek autistically.
1badea No.622747
>>622739
>Warn him it's bait
>Takes it anyway.
>Wonders why everyone bullies him.
fa8901 No.622794
>>622745
Generally speaking, yes.
417d30 No.622806
>>622743
It's a hohol-thing, you wouldn't understand.
9185b6 No.622820
>>622557
<is there a magical tank that doesn't have a thermal signature?
Yes as well as a heavily reduced visual signature
188286 No.622825
Guys, I do appreciate your right for shitposting. But there's no way I'm gonna let this fake leaf to get away with his revealing.
>>622700
Dear fake leaf, please be so kind as to prove you at least live in Canada.
117d5e No.622830
>>622746
>He's a Ukrainian and their people have nothing left except trying to prove they aren't Russians.
Is Ukraine the Canada of Russia?
a3dc65 No.622832
>>622649
>Technically it's not, it's just a way more cost effective solution.
Most importantly it is more reliable solution and on top of that it is part of engine family with lot of users on multiple different vehicles. That means that it will have future upgrades and certain support in future.
>The SACM engine use the gas turbine as a supercharger allowing Leclerc to move from to go from 0 to 32 km/h under 5 seconds IIRC with a direct transmission of power to the track, meaning it beats a sport car in the first second of acceleration.
It has 1 second advantage over UAE version with MTU engine in 0 to 32km/h. Most tanks have that advantage in the first second, due to tanks having insanely high torque engines. Tanks don't have wheel spin issues that might come up with sports cars due to more grip area and gargantuan weight.
>Of course the downside is it's super finicky and super expensive, but if it's been tuned properly on paper it means you can dodge incoming tank shells in between the moment they're shot and the moment they land.
>In practical use it's dubious you could actually pull it off obviously and it certainly doesn't justify the insane cost of building and maintaining a gas turbine just as a turbo when a regular turbo isn't as good (but isn't that worse either) but so much simpler…
It needs to use rather exotic materials due to rather extreme compression with that turbo. It is has 2/3 displacement of typical tank engine.
>It's a typical thing that is a great feature of engineering and technology but which has little gain in practical use.
Amen. Whole engine screams about solution seeking a problem. When it comes to technical details and engineering, it is brilliant idea, potentially a bad one in practice… like it turned out to be.
As whole Leclerc is victim of end of the Cold War. That alone cut French orders to half or less of what was originally planned. Even earlier on GIAT lost the Spanish deal to KMW with Lince that eventually turned out into Leopard 2. That happened mostly due to licensing issues. Spain was originally supposed to get a substantially lighter heavily modified version Leopard 2 called Lince, in the end they got pretty regular Leo2A5 variant with couple Spanish specific modifications to keep costs down with increased parts commonality with rest of Leo2's. Then in 90's Germans simply flooded the market with surplus Leopard 2A4's at 10th of their actual cost. They had thousands of tanks they didn't need and by selling 'em they could at least ensure spare parts business for KMW.
My guess is that break even point for SACM and later on to Wärtsilä was somewhere around 2000 units sold. By the time serial production of Leclerc started and it entered service it was obvious that they weren't going to get even close to that number.
1badea No.622849
>>622832
>That alone cut French orders to half
I wish.
France had around 1500 AMX-30 MBT + all the variants (SPG, SPAAG, SAM, Recovery, Engineering, even fucking tactical missile launchers) in total it was around 2500 chassis.
426 Leclercs were ordered, variant included (recovery only. In fact not even enough recovery Leclercs to retire the AMX-30 recovery vehicles)
Out of those not even 260 are in line the other have either been mothballed, cancelled or sold (the French army pretend they have 426 despite the fact that no-one really know how much of the original order was fulfilled and the fact that there is only 4 tank formation with them at 60 tank each).
1badea No.622851
>>622820
Get on my level pleb.
1badea No.622853
>>622849
Found a pic of the last drawing.
ae4fca No.622869
>>622704
>>622825
You discovered me, I'm made Donal Trump president by hacking all voting machines, only Soros' machines were accurate and correct. At the time I'm actually a Ethnic Russian in Canada working to establish greater numbers so we can declare Alberta and Nunavut a Russian-speaking autonomous state.
I know exactly what makes you mad hohol, because you're a ""nation"" of clones with no personality, what makes one of you mad makes all of you mad. All pigs are the same - a bunch of polish-lithuanians speaking russian and pretending to have a deep and ancient history even though your nation is more recent than Canada. Your behavior in person and your behavior as a culture are lower even than Jews or Muslims, who at least have some self-respect.
188286 No.622886
>>622869
So, in short:
1. Turns out our favorite """Canadian""" russaboo shill is actually a russian-speaking person;
2. He refuses to provide any evidence he is at least an ethnic russian living in Canada, not just some fag with VPN.
I apologize to the real Canadians for a fair share of my "fucking leaf" posts. Who knew Canadians weren't to blame.
31cbf9 No.622889
>>622830
If leafland had way more corruption and incompetence you probably couldn't really tell the difference between the two.
a09577 No.622893
>>622869
Please keep triggering Ukraine, it is amusing.
4f08b1 No.622913
>>622886
That's some mighty fine detective work you've done here, lad.
d204df No.623072
>>622091
The Bradley is inexscuable shit that slid on by with seal clubbing expeditions….and got dumped for something else once the going got tough because IEDs love it.
The Osprey is a successful, if risky, program. Its neat.
>>622122
Yeah, there it is. The replacement was, IIRC, going to be more expensive than a fucking Abrams. It was trash. The current vehicle is trash too, but at least its paid for.
>>622101
The other things that was a fucking scandal was the mobile 155mm replacement got scrapped because to was attached to the Future Combat Systems program. It was one of the things that was actually needed and a good idea, like the guided High Explosive round not for the arty, but for the 120mm main gun on the Abrams, which could have been adapted for the 105mm Stryker, giving that hunk of fail some use.
We actually did need another mobile artillery platform, and currently rock the shittiest one in any service that has serious guns.
d204df No.623075
>>623072
I take it back. There were TWO systems that were meant to replace the M109, Crusader and NLOS. Both were better in every way.
d204df No.623078
>>622321
>It's a tank made to run on a highway…
So was the Sherman, it had shitty offroad capabilities compared to everything else. Its only real flaw.
d204df No.623081
>>622543
>You're basically admitting that US military is built to fight pic related and can't handle peer wars
While a few systems we have are only good for seal clubbing, the only land military on the planet I'd honestly be scared that would beat our asses is in fact, Russia. And that's if they could deploy. And that's only in a specific theatre and scenario.
China? Hahahahaha lol.
India? Double lol.
Everyone else's militaries would be too tiny and would just get blasted away. So yeah the US Military is shittier than it has a right to be, but nearly everyone else is worse. FFS, the USMC could beat the asses of most anyone else without the Army to help.
d204df No.623088
>>622646
>Having three different tanks with essentially equal performance was one of biggest Soviet fuckups during cold war.
Not to mention extreme over production of poor build quality vehicles. Granted, its forgivable regarding the T54/55 seeing that it was sheer panic, but it kept happening.
d204df No.623090
>>622830
More like the Wessex of England or the New England of America.
Denying they are Russian is silly.
7bc100 No.623118
>>622704
I hear people say "the Ukraine" all the time and I've never meet a Russian in my life. News broadcasters also called it "the Ukraine" when the donbass shit started and Russia took back Crimea (which the also called the Crimea I believe).
7bc100 No.623120
>>622851
>that design
>>622886
>I apologize to the real Canadians for a fair share of my "fucking leaf" posts. Who knew Canadians weren't to blame.
You take that back right now you dumb cunt. We have a national reputation to uphold and I'm not letting some angry slav faggot tarnish it.
>>622889
But Ukrainian Bandits are just their population while ours are chugs, only difference is which alcohol they get drunk on and ours are browner. Plus we have no zone unfortunately. (Someone nuke Edmonton it's the perfect place for a zone and far enough away I won't die in the blast which might be a negative)
1badea No.623164
>>623118
>"the Ukraine"
That's because it's the proper way to call it. But Kiev, sorry Kyiv (pronounced Kiev) newspeak doesn't want it to be so.
642277 No.623165
>ITT: buttblasted Ukrainian sperging out to compensate for his inferiority complex
Can't wait for pic related to happen.
ae4fca No.623166
>>623081
By what metric? A hundred thousand Americans, tip of the spear type guys, couldn't kill 50 thousand Taliban over more than a decade. That means it takes more than two American elite soldiers to kill one stone age primitive.
There are in total about a million and a half armed government servants in America, soldiers and cops together, and most of them aren't elite soldiers backed by the best tech either. So if someone cough-MEXICO comes at you with 150k stone age primitives in a serious manner, what the fuck are you going to do?
This is the #1 reason countries don't contribute into NATO anymore, no one believes in it anymore.
>>623118
Because that's the grammatical way to call an area of land, a name geographic in origin, or used to replace a name which was more political such as a borderlands which used to belong to someone else
For example the Netherlands mean the "low lands" and the proper way to say it is "The Netherlands".
The Gambia means the land which borders a river, the Tuscany which is the land between the Apennines and the Ligurian and Tyrrhenian Seas, the Kosovo means "the land of the kos" which is a type of bird, the Punjab which is a region of the Indus river with its five tributaries, the Philipines were a set of islands named "Filipinas" by an explorer long before they were a country, even The British Isles.
Ukrainians are just dumb pigs that need to be liberated from about 90% of the land they currently occupy.
The Red part is the Ukraine in the 1600. The Brown was given to them by Russian tsars. The Green was given to them by Stalin. The Blue was given to them by Lenin. And the Purple (Crimea ) was given to them by Kruschev in 1954. Their entire country consists of people gifting them land, they never conquered shit or grew an iota of a civilization. The Ukrainians basically HATE Russians for being a living reminder of this unnatural growth, not for any other reason.
0d7893 No.623169
>>623166
>Their entire country consists of people gifting them land, they never conquered shit or grew an iota of a civilization.
>coming from Canada
Glasses houses lad.
0d7893 No.623170
>>623169
*glass
Fucking autocorrect
26f9b4 No.623183
>>623165
>wanting gypsiesland to have more clay
At least go all out with the ebinness.
7d8729 No.623193
>>623120
You have a zone, its to your west and north.
>>623166
People don't pay into NATO anymore due to a combination of gibs and expecting America to defend them.
69c58b No.623204
>>623183
We could just politely convince the Gips to GTFO and we are good to go ;)
7bc100 No.623308
>>623193
The Rockies or northern B.C.?
535baa No.623321
>>622111
>$400,000 on a soldier that can be killed with a $0.25 bullet
Just fucking why
5f8e97 No.623427
>>623321
>I have been struck by the magnitude of your resources, your ships, your arsenals, but what I cannot understand is why the rulers of so vast and flourishing an empire should have gone across the Indus to deprive me of my poor and barren country.
t. afghanistan
77f07b No.623433
>>622287
>being a literally soulless gook that isn't influenced by chaos
Several Tau have been corrupted and a few have been possessed.