/k/ - Weapons

>>615104

>ally

God dammit, I'm missing the e

>online

>degree

Fuck no

The best way to go would be to find someone to apprentice under, even if it is a fudd. Good luck there though. A lot of fucking old guys will do nothing but bitch and moan about young guys no matter how interested or dedicated they are to learning trades.

The second best way to go would be getting into machining professionally and getting a good handle on woodworking on top of that, while also knowing some gunsmiths who could point you in the right direction and put in a good word with potential employers.

You can't drill and tap a receiver , you can't ream a chamber, you can't mill, turn, or hand file replacement parts, you can't make a stop, you can't engrave, you can't do anything with a handful of videos you downloaded from some fake college. Working in a job shop dealing with precision work would be a good stepping stone to gunsmithing.

See if there are any local community or technical colleges offering certificate programs for machining. These sorts of things will give you a basic handle on the use of machine tools, metrology, and just working metal in general. More importantly, I've found that the instructors for these sorts of things tend to know the right people, so getting work after finishing is easier. You can learn woodwork at home without a huge investment in tools. I'm currently in such a program and have an in with a guy for a pretty decent job next year. It's probably less expensive than any online gunsmithing courses, and if you are poor, you can get scholarships easy from community colleges.

No matter your skill level, no one is going to hire some fresh faced kid as a full fledged gunsmith. If you show them a degree, they will not only reject you, they will laugh.

>>615144 (checked)

I figured there would be a catch.

I do want a formal education specifically on weapons though, just as a means to get my shit straight.

I did find one program that actually sends you a series of hands-on projects, tools, diagrams, and books through the mail. Eventually you'll send back your work, and they'll grade you on it. I'll provide a link to the course details:

https://moderngunrepair.com/advanced/

Regardless though, I'm definitely going to go with your advice regarding certification in machining, as I'm sure it is one of the corner stones of gunsmithing.

Thanks for the input.

>>615152

That program actually looks like a much better deal than some of the others I've seen, a better value at least. Sonoran Desert Institute charges 16000 and doesn't offer that much more, still though, I think my idea would be a lot better ultimately. The site itself states that it provides "entry-level" education and isn't really aiming to churn out highly skilled professionals to go straight into the field.

In anything technical and tangible, it really helps to have some short tempered old guy looking over your shoulder telling you when you fuck up.

The program I'm in has a few issues, but the only ones that really cause issues are the schedule, and the not infrequent lack of coordination between instructors. The main classes are grinding, lathe, layout and benchwork, CNC, and milling, one class each day of the week, with one half in the classroom and the remainder in the shop, where 3-5 guys, mostly retired machinists make sure no one gets turned to hamburger. When five different instructors are teaching things in the classroom, some stuff gets redundant, but that's not a big deal. Later in the evening there are two math classes a week, blueprint, and OSHA 10 hr safety certification classes. Next semester Solidworks and QC will be covered. Really it will only be scratching the surface of the field, but the basics get pretty well drilled in, and you get those juicy reference letters.

On the shop floor, being able to ask a professional for an opinion before performing an operation or after making a fuckup is really valuable. You can get direct input on technique and outcome, and you can see exactly how they do things. It really utilizes the senses, and had nuances that can't be picked up on unless you are right there feeling it.

Whatever you end up doing, make it's something you can reasonably plan a future around. Good luck.

There just isn't a market. The supply is too high and the demand I too low. You will forever make shit money and be easily replaceable

>>615159

>16000

Holy shit that is theft

I'm definitely looking into machining certification though, that sounds like it could be useful in a variety of fields. Even if the smithing plan doesn't come to fruition, I can at least have it as a hobby later.

Thanks, and good luck to you too.

>>615161

Yeah, I kinda expect to get buttmangled to death, but I may as well try to do something I take interest in for a living rather than wagie shit.

>>615144

Alernatively to going the civvy route:

Join the military and go for ordnance corps small arms and artillery repair.

>>615212

Military experience in the trades world is like gold because the company gets tax credits and won't question whether or not you actually know how to do something unless you say something to suggest otherwise. Fake it until you make it is the way of life in professional trade jobs to the point where an average HVAC technician who does his job/actually measures things is considered a grade-A technician, so I would highly recommend this route so long as you take the shortest contract feasibly possible, keep your head low, and try not to die for Israel.

>>615367

>try not to die for Israel.

We do not tolerate anti-semitism on this board.

>>615104

I'm not a gunsmith but I work with one sometimes.

There's lots of work for gunsmiths.

School will get you ready to start an apprenticeship with a good gunsmith.

After that, you should apprentice for about 5 years.

It's a heavily regulated industry; you need an FFL and you're subject to inspections and extra tax scrutiny for financial matters.

I have my gunsmith friends syllabus and bibliography if you're interested.

>>615212

In the US, probably the best route would be USN, Gunner's Mate, small arms.

>>615661

I'm interested in this syllabus

>>615664

>>615664

What about coast guard? Don't they technically count as a military branchunder DHS?

Apprenticeship Syllabus

Compensation:

Apprentices and Journeymen alike are retained as independent contractors and compensated according to the following schedule;

1st year: 25% of the value of work accomplished.

2nd year: 30% of the value of work accomplished.

3rd year: 40% of the value of work accomplished.

4th year: 50% of the value of work accomplished.

5th year: 60% of the value of work accomplished.

All percentages are less the cost of credit card fees and sales taxes.

Tools, Instruments, Tooling and Machinery

Apprentices and Journeymen are expected to provide their own tools and instruments. Machinery, tooling, parts & supplies are provided by the shop.

See Appendix A for tool and insturment listings.

Training

Training is planned on an individual basis commensurate with the prior experience and knowledge of the contractor. Please see Appendix B for Biblio-

graphy.

For Apprentices the following schedule assumes no prior experience and consists of the following:

1st year: A) Cleaning and maintenance of machinery:

Lathes, Mills, Grinders, Buffers, Saws, Die Grinders, Compressors & Sanders.

B) Basic filing & grinding of metals and woods.

C) Basic sanding and finishing of woods.

D) Basic polishing and finishing of metals.

E) Simple metal turning, boring, drilling, tapping, facing and milling.

F) Cleaning and examination for faults or incipient failures in firearms.

G) Simple stock repair.

H) Simple tool & knife grinding and sharpening.

Page 1 of 8 Pages

2nd Year: A) Mechanical theory & function of firearms.

B) One of the following forms of competitive shooting;

1. Bullseye Pistol

2. National Match Course – Match Rifle

3. Skeet or Trap

C) Basic Stockmaking

D) Basic Reloading and Bullet Casting

E) Advanced Stock repair

D) Introduction to Metallurgy and Chemistry

E) Advanced wood finishing

F) Advanced metal polishing

G) Blueing, Parkerizing, Plating (Nickel)

H) Knifemaking

3rd Year: A) Advanced Reloading and Bullet making

B) One of the following forms of Competitive shooting

1. IPSC/IDPA (Bullseye Pistol a prerequisite)

2. Silhouette (Rifle or Pistol) (Bullseye Pistol prerequisite)

3. Five Stand or Sporting Clays (Skeet a prerequisite)

C) Trigger building and reworking

D) Advanced Stockmaking

E) Beginning Checkering

F) Introduction to Ballistics and Physics

4th Year: A) Beginning Rifle Building

B) 2nd year Metallurgy and Chemistry

C) Advanced Lathe work

D) Advanced Mill work

E) A variation on the shooting disciplines above, E.G. if two years of

Rifle competition has been completed then Pistol or Shotgun must

be selected for the following two years.

F) Bullet Swaging

G) Advanced bullet casting

5th Year: A) Advanced Rifle building

B) Mechanical Drawing

C) Color Case Hardening

E) Advanced Checkering

At this point the student begins his rifle building project for submission to the American Custom Gunmaker’s Guild in support of his application for membership.

Page 2 of 8 Pages

6th Year: A) Beginning Pistol building

B) Sales & Retailing

C) Advanced Pistol building

At this point the student submits his work to the American Pistolsmith’s

Guild in support of his application for membership.

7th Year: A) Architectural Drawing

B) Technical writing

C) Beginning double-gun building

8th Year: A) Advanced double-gun building

9th Year: A) Double Rifle building, Advanced theory and practice

B) Customer relations

10th Year A) Advanced Sales and Retailing

B) Finance

11th Year A) Shop Design and Operation

B) Advertising

C) Shop Supervision / Business Operations

At the end of the 5th year the student may terminate association with Bolle & Tammaro and elect to pursue further study with a firm specializing in their particular area of interest. Journeymen already familiar with the general pro-

fession may enter and leave the training program as their particular skills dictate

and may leave to specialize, or remain as specialists at their discretion.

I, ________, agree to participate in the program offered by XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX to the best of my abilities until such time (end of the 5th year) that I become eligible to dictate the remainder of my training. Scheduled work hours will be kept, consideration of and courtesy to other members of the firm will be tendered by all concerned parties to this agreement. Customer contact will be allowed at the discretion of the owners of the firm. Termination of my association with XXXXXXXXXXXXX may be at the behest of myself or the firm with or without cause.

Dated: ________.

Signed: _______. The Associate.

Signed: _______: For the Firm.

Page 3 of 8 Pages

Appendix A Basic Tool & Instrument List

Opti-visor with # 3 lenses

Hammer, 1” Nylon & Brass

Hammer, 16 oz Brass or Aluminum

Mallet, Rubber, dead-blow

Punches, 2 sets, Brownells replaceable pin type

Punches: Jobber length 1/16th thru 1/2” by 1/16ths

Punches: Aluminum, ¼ & 3/8”

Punches: 8” 1/8th thru ½ “ by 1/8ths

Needle files: 5 file set in Coarse, Fine and diamond coated

Files: 8 or 10 inch: Flat Mill, 2nd Cut and Bastard

Files: 8 or 10 inch: Half-round Mill, 2nd Cut and Bastard

Files, Chainsaw, set of five

File 10-12” round rasp

Pattern-makers Rasp

Screwdrivers; Master set from Brownells with Long, LE and Stub length handles

Screwdriver: Brownells European thin blade set

Screwdrivers: Allen, Torx and Phillips

Aviation Snips, straight cut

Wrenches, Open/Box-end: ¼” thru ¾”

Wrenches: Socket set with extensions, 3/8ths drive

Stones: Med India in square, round, triangular and slip

Stones: Fine Arkansas in square, round, triangular, slip and 6” bench

Clamps: Starret machinest’s in 2 and 4” sizes

Starret Combination Square with Protractor and Dividing head – 6” model

Starret 1” Micrometer Caliper

Starret 6” Dial Caliper with # 120 foot

Starret 6” scale fractional on 1 side, decimal on the other.

Starret combination center and edge finder

Set Vise Grips

Set Dental picks and tools

Crescent 10” adjustable

Framing Square

16 oz curved claw hammer

Apprentice’s Machinest Chest

Five Drawer Roll-Around

Bench light. Drawing lamp preferred.

Dremel Die Grinder with Stones, brushes, felt bobs, cut-off wheels & sanding

Drums

Soapstone

Toothbrushes: Stainless steel, brass and black nylon.

10 # Sense of Humor

Page 4 of 8 Pages

Appendix B Gunsmithing Bibliography

Forward

You want to be a Gunsmith! Very well, let’s begin at the beginning. First, let’s define just what a Gunsmith is. I’m going to take the approach of first listing what a Gunsmith isn’t. He is not an ‘armorer’, mechanic, tinker, or teacher, though he must at times be all of those. He is not a cabinetmaker, a maker of musical instruments, a tool & die maker, a moldmaker, a Chemist, Ballistiician, Mechanical Engineer or Physical Anthropologist, a soldier with Special Ops experience or a hard-nosed competitor with years of experience in at least one of the shooting disciplines (& maybe more than one), but it’s going to be a lot easier on him if he is at least one of those with more than a nodding acquaintance with more than a few more.

As a Gunsmith you will be called upon to do everything from the simple fitting and replacement of parts, barrels and sights, making and heat-treating parts correctly, repairing and refinishing stocks, and sighting firearms to making, finishing and checkering custom stocks, building finely accurate hunting and target arms, stocking and modifying shotguns to fit the owner as though they were a part of that person’s body shooting exactly where he or she looks. You will be expected to turn out weapons that are as close to completely reliable as weapons can be and to do so in a reasonable amount of time. You will require all the skills mentioned in the first paragraph and you will be expected to possess the tact and forbearance of a confessor. You must, if you are to be successful, be willing to deal with every customer fairly and honestly. It will be very helpful if you can maintain a sense of humor.

With that said, what follows is a bibliography with numerical ratings as to usefulness of most of the titles I have found helpful through the years and a numerical scale at the beginning of each line as a suggested order in which they should be read. No one book has all the answers, and often you will find yourself referring to several in your search for a solution to a problem. Not all are on gunsmithing per se, but all deal with subjects with which a Gunsmith should be familiar. Most have bibliographies of their own which will guide you in further study. Some have been written decades or even a century ago, others are as modern as tomorrow. All contain information that you will need at one time or another. None will, in and of themselves, make you a Gunsmith. You should, if at all possible, attend one of the many schools listed in the appendix. You must, find a Gunsmith under which to apprentice. Look for the traits of honesty, fairness, intelligence, patience and the ability to communicate ideas well. You may find that your education will take you to more than one apprenticeship, as not all Gunsmiths are generalists. Many specialize, some quite narrowly.

And finally, remember that a Gunsmithy is a business and it will be necessary for you to learn how to operate it as such. I wish you success in your endeavor and hope you find the same satisfaction which it has been my good fortune to experience.

Page 5 of 8 Pages

Engineering

Engineering Manual, Robt. H Perry, PHD, ed. ISBN 0-07-049476-2…………………………9.5

The Standard Handbook of Engineering Calculations, Tyler Gregory Hicks, ISBN 0-07-028734-1….9.0

The Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, L S Marks, Pub. McGraw-Hill, ISBN ….9.0

Strength of Materials,

Metal Working

40.The Starret Book for Student Machinists, Geo. Morris, c The Starret Co, Athol MA…….9.0

41.Machine Shop Practice, Moltrect, Karl Hans, c. Industrial Press Inc. NY NY…………….9.0

ISBN 0-8311-1126-7 Vol 1 – ISBN 0-8311-1132-1 Vol 2.

The Complete Machine-Hour Rate System for Cost Estimating and Pricing,Spencer A. Tucker,

By Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0-13-160721-9………8

42.Machinery’s Handbook, Oberg, Jones & Horton………………………..10

44.Machine Tool Technology Basics, Krar, Gill, Smid & Wanner…………9

43.How to Run a Lathe, c South Bend Machine Tool Co. South Bend IN. …….10

45.Milling Machine Operations, c 1953 Delmar Publishers Inc , Albany, NY …….8

The Kennametal Milling Cutter Handbook, c Kennametal Inc, Latrobe, PA. ….9

Heat Treatment, Selection & Application of Tool Steels, Bill Bryson ………….9

46.A Complete Guide to Successful Silver Brazing, c Englehard Corp, Specialy Metals Div.

Rt 152, Plainsville MA 02763 (617) 695-7811 ….8

47.Basic Oxyacetalene Welding ……..7

48.Tungsten Inert Gas Welding ……..8

49.The Art of Engraving, Jas R Meek, …….7

50.Engraving, Lynton McKenzie ………….7

51.Firearm Blueing and Browning, RH Angier, c. Thos. G Samworth, Stackpole Books,

Harrisburg PA ……5

52.The Complete Illustrated Guide to Precision Barrel Fitting, John L Hinnant ……….8

Wood Working

53.Stockmaking, Alvin Linden, J Martin Inc. POB Drawer AP, Beckley WV ………….9

54.Gunstock Finishing & Care, Donald A Newell, Samworth Tech Pub Co. Georgetown SC …4

55.The Checkering & Carving of Gunstocks, Monte Kennedy, ed. Thos G Samworth,

Stackpole Books, Harrisburg PA …8

56.Cabinetmaking and Millwork John L Fierer, c 1977 ISBN 87002-238-5 ……….8

Ammunition Making & Reloading

1.Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders, Vol 1 & 2, P.O. Ackley c.1962 by PO Ackley & Publisher’s

Press, 2235 Arbor Ln, Salt Lake City UT …9

2.The Pocket Manual for Shooters & Reloaders, P.O. Ackley, addr as above. ………10

3.The Complete Guide to Handloading, Phillip B. Sharpe, Funk & Wagnalls, NY NY …….10

4.The Art of Bullett Casting, from Handloader Magazine, 1966-81, Wolfe Pub Co Inc

ISBN 0-935632-08-5 …..7

5.Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges, Ken Howell …….9

6.Handloading for Cometition, Glen Zideker …..7

7.Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions, John J Donnelly ……7

Latest Loading Manuals from; Lyman, Hornady, Nosler & Sierra companies. ….7

Cartridges of the World, Frank C Barnes ……9

Page 6 of 8 pages

General Gunsmithing

27.The Modern Gunsmith, James V Howe,c Funk & Wagnalls Co. 1982 ed published by Bonanza Books, ISBN 0-517-38583X …….9

28.Professional Gunsmithing, Walter Howe, c 1946 by Thos Samworth, The Stackpole Co, Harrisburg PA. Standard Book # 8117-1375-X …..7.5

25.Gunsmithing Simplified, Harold E McFarland an NRA Library Book, pub by Combat Forces Press, 1115 17th St NW, Wash 6, DC ……..9.5

34.Gunsmithing, Roy Dunlap, c 1950 by Thos G Samworth Lib of Cong Catalog # 63-21755 …7

26.The NRA Gunsmithing Guide, Rev by Ken Raynor & Brad Fenton, Pub by National Rifle Assoc 1600 Rhode Island Ave, Washington DC, ISBN 0-935998-47-0 …8

29.Small Arms of the World, Ezell, ed by Clinton, Pub Stackpole Books, Cameron & Kelker Sts POB 1831, Harrisburg PA 17105 ……9

35.Wisners Book of Hard to find Gun Parts Drawings c Brownells ….3

36.Book of Antique Firearms Values, Norm Flayderman, OUT OF PRINT …..8

37.Blue Book of Gun Values, S P Fjestad, …..7.5

38.The Winchester Book, Geo Madis …6

30.Firearms Assembly and Disassembly, 5 vols, J B Wood, DBI Books. …3

31.NRA Firearms Assembly Manuals, 2 vols, Long Gns and Handguns, NRA Publishing …5

39.Gunsmith Kinks, 4 vols, c Brownells …2

32.Hatcher’s Notebood, Maj Gen Julian S Hatcher, Maj Gen USA, c 1962 Stackpole Books Library of Congress # 62-12654 ….8

33.The Accurate Rifle, Warren Page, Claymore Pub Co, 2221 9th St SW, Canton OH 44706

ISBN # 1-886681-06-6 …….9

Specific Firearm Types &Models

Winchester Factory Manuals, 8 vols, …….7

Single Shot Rifles & Actions, Frank DeHaas, …8

The Bolt Action, 2 vols, Stuart Otteson c The Winchester Press, ISBN 0-8329-0339-6 …..8

Rifles & Machine Guns, Melvin M Johnson, Capt USMCR, Wm Morrow & Co, NY NY 1944 …4

Modern American Pistols & Revolvers, AC Gould, c 1888 by AC Gould & Co, Bradlee Whidden Pub, Boston MA 1894. …….7

Shotguns, by Kieth, Elmer Keith, c Bonanza Books, Lib of Cong # 67-23320 …4

Big Game Rifles & Cartridges, Elmer Keith, c Samworth Small Arms Technical Publishing Co, Onslow County NC ISBN 0-88227-048-6 …4

Sixguns by Keith, Elmer Keith, Wolfe Pub Co, 6471 Airpark Dr, Prescott AZ ISBN 1-879356-09-0 ..9

Accurizing the Factory Rifle, ML McPherson …4.5

Hallecks’s .45 Auto Handbook, Ken Halleck 5.5

Trigger Job, Jerry Miculek …3.5

Gunsmithing Pistols and Revolvers, Patrick Sweeny …4

The M-14, Duff & Miller …6

The M-1 Garand Owners Manual, Scott Duff …5

The Competitive AR-15, Glen Zidecker …5

Mauser Rifles, Ludwig Olson ….8

Springfield Rifles, WS Brophy …9

The Remington M 700, John F Lacey …7

Marlin Firearms, WS Brophyt ….8

Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions …..3

Page 7 of 8 Pages

Philosophies, ‘How-To’ & General Topics

24.To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth, Jeff Cooper, Gunsite Press POB 401, Paulden, AZ

ISBN 0-9621342-0-1 ….7

8.Position Rifle Shooting, Bill Pullen & Frank Hannenkrat, c 1973 Winchester Press

205 E 42nd St NY NY 10017, ISBN 0-87691-097-5 ….8.5

17.Fast & Fancy Revolver Shooting, Ed McGivern, c 1938 Follett Pub Co Chicago ILL …9

9.The Complete Book of Shooting, O’Connor, Dunlap, Kerr & Cooper, With special emphasis on the section written by Jeff Cooper, this contains everything later published as “Cooper on Handguns”, which is now a valuable collectible, c 1965 by Outdoor Life L.o.C. # 65-28273 …9

23.Guns & Gunning, Paul A Curtis, Capt. USA, c Alfred A Knopf, 1943 ….4

10.The Hunter’s Shooting Guide, Jack O’Connor, ISBN )-943822-00-9 ….8.5

22.Hell ! I Was There, Elmer Keith, pub The Blacksmith Corp POB 1752 Chino Valley AZ 86323 ..8

18.The Art of Hunting Big Game, Jack O’Connor, L.o.C. 67-14558 …7.5

21.Elmer Keith’s Big Game Hunting, Elmer Keith, pub 1948 Little, Brown & Co. …7

11.On Your Own in the Wilderness, Townsend Whelen & Bradford Angier, pub Galahad Books, NY

ISBN 88365-004-5 ….8.5

12.The Deer Hunter’s Guide, Francis E Sell, The Stackpole Co. L.o.C. # 64-14891 …….9.8

20.Hunting N. America’s Upland Game Birds, John D Taylor, Lyons Press ISBN 1-58574-245-7 NR

13.Duck Decoys & How to Rig Them, Ralf Coykendall, New Cent Pub, ISBN 0-8329-0344-2…9

19.Tigrero, Sasha Siemel, c 1953 Prentice Hall Pub, L.oC. # 53-9629…….7

14.In The Gravest Extreme, Massad Ayoob, ISBN 0-936297-00-1……7

15.Stressfire & Stressfire II , Massad Ayoob, Police Bookshelf, POB 122 Concord NH 03301……7

ISBN #s 0-936279-03-06 & 0-936279-11-7

16.Armed & Female, Paxton Quigley, pub St Martins Paperbacks, ISBN 0-312-95150-7……5

Page 8 of 8 Pages

>>615750

>Apprentices and Journeymen are expected to provide their own tools and instruments. Machinery, tooling, parts & supplies are provided by the shop.

Dropped on page one.

>>615704

The Coast Guard is a fully recognized branch of the US armed forces, no technically about it.

>>615704

It is.

The Navy has active duty manned depot level small arms repair and rebuild facilities. (ie. gun smithing)

IIRC I was told that the Coast Guard is civilian supported.

>>615383

Here's your (you) Goldstein

I found this on another thread, maybe it will help

I don't have any experience in gun making, i only used some couple a years ago but now i wanna make my own gun can you guys suggest how can i do it i mean i have some blueprints but nothing else

>>615164

Get a degree in a trade that is in need of people and then take up gun smiting as a hobby. Then it won't matter if you make shit money.

>>626275

I have no experience in gun making either but I would say as a safety thing for your first gun you make keep the materials thick and the caliber low.