/k/ - Weapons

Thanks for visiting our board, Satan-kun. But isn't that question better suited for the QTDDTOT thread, or does it really need its own independent thread?

>>589669

Not even that, there are multiple threads about pistols and ammunition that are quite suited for this question.

>>589666

First off, you're a faggot for missing all of the threads you could have put this in.

>Is the FN Five Seven just a meme gun, or does it have any practical purposes?

It provides armor piercing capabilities with ammunition unavailable to the civilian market, mainly for use with entry teams using ballistic shields - the guys that can't otherwise use a rifle.

Crap civvie ammunition fired from it has the ballistic capability of a .22 Magnum rifle.

>Does it fill a specific role better than other pistols?

Not really. Kicking in doors is more chaotic than people think and giving a scalpel to a guy carrying a shield intended to soak up gunfire is optimistic.

inb4 Fort Hood

inb4 muh wound vectors

It's way too expensive for what it is.

If only the boolits themselves are cheaper, more widespread and available to more platforms.

It's a more expensive version of TT gun.

The reason why 5.7 exists is because someone wanted to sell SMGs to NATO, and there's a retarded NATO requirement preventing that sale - guns must penetrate friendly helmets at 100ft or some similar dumb range (i forget).

Only think 7.62 tokarev needs to do is match the penetration ability of 5.7 is to point their bullet and use a metal core. This can be done with minimal change in machinery and production process, and the reason it hasn't been done is because the requirement for a fucking SMG cartridge to penetrate a helmet is stupid considering it's an SMG, it's going to be shooting 5-10 rounds per target most of which will be hitting unarmored or lightly armored areas anyway. That NATO requirement is retarded because A) no one is BOOM HEADSHOT with a submachine gun; and B) russian helmets are tougher than the NATO variants that are used in testing.

tl;dr expensive gimmick

>>589671

And as far as I know 7.62 Tokarev has a similar performance, and the only potential advantage of the 5.7mm is that it's overall lighter and smaller, but then you can just give a double-stack Tokarev with an extended mag to the "shieldbearer". It's not like those few grams will be a problem.

>>589686

>.22 tuason craig micromagnum. It's a cut down 5.56mm case, necked to a 40 grain JHP, it's pretty terrifying when it hits a melon. It's designed to be used in AR-15 magazines and rifles with a simple barrel swap.

Aren't 7.62 Tokarev and 5.56 NATO so close in dimensions that in the Middle East it's a relatively popular hobby to make the former from the spent cases left behind by NATO? If that is so, then I guess you could also chamber this in weapons intended for 7.62 Tokarev, also with just a barrel swap.

>>589693

Tokarev case is a few micrometers bigger than 5.56mm, it might be possible, I don't know.

The Five Seven has a specific purpose of penetrating your wallet to empty it of money, it can easily do this to 15 wallets stacked against each other.

Just get a Tokarev.

Handguns aren't considered important in wartime, they are necessary and must be sent with, but not considered important. Along with the switch to 5.56mm NATO to save weight and take less materials in total war conditions, the move to 5.7 for NATO seemed inline with previous moves. Its "effective enough" and takes a lot less lead, copper, or steel to slap bullets together, can ship the same number of rounds with less weight and space, ect.

All the arguments used to try to bury the 45 ACP and replace it with the 9mm were ironically used to attempt to bury the 9mm to replace with the the 5.7. Lucky for the 9mm Luger, the propaganda war had mindwashed enough people into worshipping it to the point they will never ever replace it, saying something could be better than 9mm Luger is heresy worthy of burning people on crosses. The 5.7 can have more rounds in the same size magazine, weighs less to carry on the solider or police officer, has less recoil (even if it has more muzzle blast) and with its smaller frontal surface has an easier time punching through hard barriers and armor. 9mm worshippers form the Cult of 9mm had no intelligent replies after being hit with the same argument they themselves had used, and now being the fuddy backwards old men who were clinging blindly and ignorantly onto their old cartridge did the 45 thing of "Well, its too much work to replace a standard item, besides bigger bullets are better". Till you tell them 45 is bigger than they start acting like 5.7 shills. The irony is always deep.

Indeed they were going to push a submachine gun, but there were reasons to consider all fo this. The 5.56 NATO crowd relied on the false report that no human being in warfare will ever shoot past 200 yards no matter what, and the idea that artillery, APC's and tanks would mean soldiers would NEVER EVER fight outside a city again meant that shorter carbines would rule the day someday, and eventually the reality is short barrel rifles suck shit, and if the military is going to switch to smaller, shorter guns, with eventually shorter barrels, a new, lighter cartridge morel like a pistol cartridge might come to dominate that is optimized for 16 inch or less barrels and is even lighter and more cost saving and material saving then 5.56 NATO.

The answer was either a bullpup with a standard longer barrel that optimized the 5.56 NATO, a shorter barrel with a pistol cartridge, or something along that line. The idea of the "submachine gun" was closer to a new carbine that would not see main line infantry use, but was probably going to see more urban use in theory, at least, because "super light recoil, excellent perfrormance in micro long guns for urban pie cutting". Some people started to huff the "velocity is everything" bag of glue and go thigh enough to think as long as the velocity fo the bullet was high enough, it was terminally effective enough and gutting things down further from 5.56 NATO might be acceptable and maybe even superior. Afghanistan and Iraq have proven the old schools like myself right, infantry needs to have rifles and rifle cartridges for real fighting, and the mini carbine or outright submachine gun was greedy on behalf of those who wanted to minimize to the point of failure.

Its not a great performer. It doesn't generate hydrostatic shock wroth a damn, if it even produces any at all. All conclusions reached is that it is inferior in damage aspects to 9mm, 40, 45, pretty much everything. Even with expanding bullets its a poor performer, that bullet has to expand a fuckload from being so tiny to begin with to even try to match something as simple as a 38 Special wadcutter. Fragmenting does very little damage in such a low power weapon, only decreases its potential. "muh tumblin" isn't that great, tumbling is best with long bullets that can yaw and crush tissue, not little light little bullets.

I like 45 over 9mm because I can handle recoil easier than muzzle blast. Strangely, you hear 9mm shooters say the same thing about why they hate the 5.7 and stick with the 9mm. Again, the irony is beautiful. There is real truth in this, on paper the smaller cartridge always looks better because it has less net recoil, but you can't quantify muzzle blast, so we don't get the full story on the lighter, faster rounds that is also important. Some of its management in fast fire is lost due to this effect.

It can pierce armor, but that's more to do with its small frontal area, same with the Tokarev. If you aren't trying to punch through certain armors with a handgun, than what use is it? I think its an OK cartridge for certain purposes and great for shooting squirrels and whatnot, but as far as a general purpose handgun its lacking.

>>589738

>It is more useful as a police/military gun than civie use

I can't repeat this enough. EVERY SINGLE PD THAT BOUGHT P90's dropped them as SOON as there was an officer involved shooting. Jacksonville, FL, Dallas, TX, Kansas City MO, Birmingham, AL. It is utterly ineffective as a manstopper compared to 9mm and .38 special.

>>589742

<EVERY SINGLE PD THAT BOUGHT P90's dropped them as SOON as there was an officer involved shooting

That is pretty interesting. Do you have a decent source on this? All I can find online is old forum posts mostly dealing with SWAT officers preferring M4s over P90s, or only using them in certain situations.

>>589735

I remember reading a few years back about SWAT teams that went to the P90 switched back to what they were using due to a lack of stopping power. The 5.7 is only good as a bullet hose caliber for use on people wearing kevlar, in a SMG/PDW sized weapon that is. It is a pretty neat little varmint round though.

>>589671

i saw a Paul Harrell video were it pierces level 2 body armour.

>>589735

i read some where that the 5.7 was going to replace the 9mm until the krauts threw a hissy fit, that the 4.6x33mm hk didn't get picked

>>589805

There was a real possibility of it being adopted, that is well established. The H&K hissy fit put an end to it at that time, but later performance in the real world has probably buried the grave under a mountain. Its been some time since the hissy fit and things only look worse for the 5.7, everything we know tells us that size and weight matter in lower energy, lower velocity terminal ballistics and the 5.7 is just too small. I'd say the Germans bought a reprieve in order for the final judgement to be cast against it entirely.

>>589767

People speak of the "ice picking" the 5.56 NATO can do at its very poorest. The 5.7 with armor piercing is an ice pick machine. I remember reading an anecdote that put the point well, if unfortunate; a bank robber carried a 5.7 to shoot through police vests, he shot a police officer first and it indeed punched right through his vest, mortally wounding the officer. The officer, though mortally wounded, didn't die for some time, and responded to the 5.7 hits by pulling out his service pistol and shooting the robber to death. Just because you defeat the armor of a man does not guarnatee you will wound him enough to stop him. The robber killed the officer, but not in enough time to escape, or even survive the attack.

Even with expanding ammunition its a poor performer, and the P90 being ditched is further proof. There can be issues with short barrel 5.56 NATO, much less a pistol cartridge of far lesser power and velocity. Its just not good enough. I'm not totally sold on the 10.5 inch barrel M4, but a 14 or 16 inch with the rifle cartridge is a serious wounder and a competent choice, its a real easy choice to make outside of muzzle blast considerations.

The MP5 loaded with ball is a better choice outside armor piercing than the P90. Load that MP5 with hollow points against a target with no body armor, its a completely different world of terminal performance. Outside of armor piercing, and how often does even the average SWAT team fight armor, the old submachine guns are a better choice. As for rifles, well, duh, you don't go with a P90, what the hell does it really offer? As for a pistol in certain combat situations where criminals, such as well prepared terrorists or bank robbers, are wearing armor, perhaps the pistol is a viable selection to be considered and added to the armory of every special unit that can afford it. But as a mainstay its kinda a weak wounder and a bad putter downer, for lack of proper terms.

The shotgun is the greatest example of the "minimum load" question, where is the line drawn where smaller buckshot offers more pellets and bigger shot offers better per pellet performance, where is the line of minimum where we say "Anything smaller than this size shot is not advised under any normal circumstance or loading for average duty". At some point there can be discussion of why 00 buckshot may be best, why #1 might be best. We can see people say anything smaller than #1 can be discarded as a mainstay option, while others debate the values of #4 in the right circumstances. But, we all discard FF and down birdshot totally.

In carbines we have the same issue, lighter loads will work with shorter barrels and lighter guns. There is potential in submachine guns, they will never go away, because pistol cartridges do well in short barrels and can throw large diameter and objetively heavy, if light for caliber, bullets with little flash. Their demise is greatly exaggerated. Its another field where 45 ACP might make a serious comeback. The limits of a purebred rifle caliber with a short barrel are very real, highly reduced energy, velocity, range and potential damage, and in return you get huge muzzle flash that makes the whole thing harder to control. As far as rifles go, the 5.56 IS the limit, any smaller is retarded. As far as carbines go….

The 5.7 is a shitty, almost useless alternative to the 5.56 NATO for short barrel carbine use. While the bigger caliber submachine gun can hold its own because it fires well in a 10 inch barrel and the 5.56 sucks, the 5.7 is in the area of "too small to consider for normal use". Need a carbine that can pierce armor? They make 5.56 and 7.62 NATO for those purposes, and although hard to handle, are better for punching through armor and obstalces. Don't need armor piercing? Perhaps the submachine gun is the better choice, in which case you want something that kills, and the old calibers do that well, far better than the 5.7. The 5.7 is neither a great choice for CQB rifle/carbine nor a good submachine gun. Its a good for nothing.

It was a good idea in theory, like so many other things, but it did not come to pass. Velocity didn't turn it into an effective manstopper and we ended up with an armor piercing 22 Magnum.

>>589666

>or does it have any practical purposes?

1. Be most satanic gun out there.

2. Be handgun chambered in the 5.7x28 caliber, same as PDW. Unification of calibers.

>>589680

>guns must penetrate friendly helmets at 100ft or some similar dumb range (i forget).

Requirement for PDW was penetrating CRISAT target that represented soviet 6B2 body armor.

>muh Russian body armor

Funnily enough when PDWs were started rolling out Russians were already dropping this piece of shit 6B2 vests and never returned to such concept.

>B) russian helmets are tougher than the NATO variants that are used in testing.

It is opposite. Soviet Ssh-68 helmet V50 is 800 fps vs 15 grains fragment, US M1 helmet V50 is 1450 fps (ACH is 2100 fps, 6B2 body armor is 1800 fps). Because M1 had ballistic nylon liner and essentially is hybrid steel polymer armor when Ssh-68 is pure steel which sucks when used as thin plates big time.

>Only think 7.62 tokarev needs to do is match the penetration ability of 5.7 is to point their bullet and use a metal core

Penetration was not only one thing to optimize. 5.7x28 caliber was also designed to minimize recoil and maximize effectiveness of the full auto fire that was supposed to be main mode of operation for PDW. But machine-guns are banned in the US so American civilians think full auto is useless (sour grapes) and review every caliber from the point of view of semiautomatic guns.

>>590254

American civilians think full-auto is useless because we pay for ammunition and we can't privately own 1986-and-up manufactured full-autos, so we have no frame of reference.

Even muhreens think full-auto is crap unless it's from an LMG in a static position, but then again nobody in their right mind uses an SMG anymore because shrunken down rifles are the new hotness.

I wonder if just upping the chamber pressure of the torkarev would get it to become sufficiently effective. The current max chamber pressure is only 36,000psi so if you upped it to 55,000psi then you could get some pretty decent performance gains I would think. Bonus points for being the noisiest little fireball chucker around.

>>590308

The TT-33 and CZ-52 break often enough as it is, you'd need some serious retard strength for that.

>>590304

>Russians use the 6b47 helmet

>1989

>6b47

Lol.

6b47 is rated Br 1 (Makarov 9x18 mild steel core), frag 15 grains v50 is 2070 fps. It is made from about 20 layers of kevlar. CRISAT target is 1.6 mm titanium plate supplemented by 20 layers of kevlar. Against kevlar only 5.7x28 SS190 goes through about 140-150 layers.

>>590311

The designs of those guns are pushing 90 and 60 years out of date respectively, metallurgy has come quite a ways since then. A complete redesign using modern materials and construction techniques that meets the higher pressure requirements wouldn't be too crazy.

>>590431

Nobody's going to make a modern pistol chambered in 7.62x25, Anon.

>>590440

You just wait!

>>590443

never ever

Fresh Yugo TT-33s feature slide-cracking like a 1911 with anything remotely hot so it's going to need an actual locking system, and nobody wants to pay for that.

>>590445

>implying implications

For what's being proposed(55,000psi) you'll need something along the lines of the roller-delayed locking system in a design that allows for an adequate amount of material that wont bust or break.

Don't forget that 1911s were notorious for cracking with 10mm up until someone competent was in charge of it, and that Glocks don't like hot reloads.

>>590444

>>590440

Don't ever underestimate Magyar autism.

>>590816

And like so often, I wrote 7.62 instead of 7.62 or 7.65 quite a few times.

>>589843

Good read. Thank you for that, anon.

MAIN POINT OF SELLING BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN PISTOL IS EXTREME PRICE OF WEAPON AND CARTRIDGE.

BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS WEAPON OF MAN WHO WEARS EXPENSIVE ITALIAN FASCIST SUIT OF HAND SEWING, DRIVE HUGE EXPENSIVE NAZI MERCEDES OF A.M.G. SHOP, SAIL ON MASSIVE YACHT TO GREEK ISLANDS. I THINK YOU GET PICTURE. BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS WEAPON THAT SAYS IS NO SUCH THING AS CONCERN OF MONEY.

FOR MAN WITHOUT EXPENSIVE SUIT, BIG BLACK MERCEDES, AND MASSIVE YACHT, BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS FOR PRETENDING OF BE RICH LIKE BLACK GANGSTER OF AMERICAN CITY WITH GOLD CHAINS OF LOW QUALITY AND JEWELS OF COLORED GLASS. WHEN YOU EXPLAIN USE OF BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN PISTOL IS ONLY FOR SHOOT MAN WITH BULLET VEST WITH CARTRIDGE ILLEGAL TO CIVILIAN, THIS MAN HAS NUCLEAR RAGE. WHOLE IDENTITY OF THIS MAN IS SPENT IN PRETEND PISTOL SHOWS HE IS RICH. IS VERY AMUSE.

FOR REST OF WORLD THERE IS 9 MILLIMETERS OF LUGER WHICH IS SAME WOUND FOR COST LESS.

If you have a problem with rats or squirrels using body armour then it's probably handy.

>>590440

The chinks make a sig clone in it. Shame they got import banned inna90s

>>590817

>I wrote 7.62 instead of 7.62

>>589843

>People speak of the "ice picking" the 5.56 NATO can do at its very poorest. The 5.7 with armor piercing is an ice pick machine. I remember reading an anecdote that put the point well, if unfortunate; a bank robber carried a 5.7 to shoot through police vests, he shot a police officer first and it indeed punched right through his vest, mortally wounding the officer. The officer, though mortally wounded, didn't die for some time, and responded to the 5.7 hits by pulling out his service pistol and shooting the robber to death. Just because you defeat the armor of a man does not guarnatee you will wound him enough to stop him. The robber killed the officer, but not in enough time to escape, or even survive the attack.

That's that's true but that's not the what 5.7 FN was ever meant to do.

>the P90 being ditched is further proof.

The P90 aren't being ditched in the use they were always meant.

The P90 is first and foremost a VIP protection weapon.

5.7 FN is armor piercing but destabilize quick giving it a penetrating/non-overpenetrating capacities making somewhat safe to use in crowded or urban settings.

They're meant to be used by people with extremely good shooting skills that will make use of the enormous magazine capacities (20 on pistols 50 on smg) to make sure whoever they're shooting at is dead.

It was always an extremely niche gun/caliber.

They sold those to civilians because the market of gimmicky guns is a never ending source of profits, but it's a gun designed with a miniscule highly-specialized tasked in mind.

Even more so than 6.5 CBJ or 4.6 HK that were developed to be ammo for light machine pistols used as backups weapons.

The idea that the P-90 is a backup weapon when it weights at least 2.5 kilos is ridiculous. It's a proper SMG heavy enough to make sure you use it in full auto as you should (because yeah 1 round is not that lethal… but when you have 50 you can be generous).

>>589666

I dunno, but some cartel boss here had such hard on for it that it even used it as his code call sign.

>>589678

Shouldn't you be making shitty rusty pisols in your underground tunnel system?

>or does it have any practical purposes?

you can shoot at stuff with it

>>595081

It's been over 40 years since the 70s champ.

>>589666

The 5.7x28 flies at 2300fps (TWICE the velocity of 9mm) and it'd rated for 3A

The Fiveseven is a 700gram(unloaded) gun that holds 20+1 of this fucking round

This handgun also has top tier QC because it's made by FN

Say what you want about the price, but you would this fucking gun over a glock or a 1911 if your life depended on it.

>>595740

Thank you for your input, FN Marketing Department.

>>595741

Why do you feel the need to make such a niggerish post

my post contained pure fucking specs and a little shitposty sentence at the end, 5.7x28's velocity is 2300fps, and it's penetration is rated for 3A, the handgun carries 20 rounds of it and is lighter than most handguns on the market.

i escaped cuckchan because of posters like you.

>>595742

Maybe you should just go back there. Your 'specs' added nothing of value to a thread with actually useful, impartial information.

>>595742

Your idea of useful information is sourceless claims about anecdotes about cops saying they were shit?

what next? you'll be quoting dockgr?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic%20Gelatin%20Tests/9mm%20Luger%20Heavy%20Clothing.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic%20Gelatin%20Tests/5.7x28mm%20Heavy%20Clothing.html

Here's a comparison between basic shitty SS195 and top-of-the-line-gucci expensive 9mm loads.

>>595747

For fuck's sake, meant for >>595744

>>595747

According to Mr. Brassfetcher's own data YOU listed, the 5.7 is a poor performer, hell all the loads listed here would be disqualified due to extremely poor penetration in 10% gel. None of the tests you listed showed the 5.7 being able to hit the bare minimum 12 inch penetration MINIMUM for even being considered AT ALL. Thank you, though, it helps to discredit the cartridge.

It goes to show that the round lacks the power or bullets to work very effectively, rounds will either ice pick, tumble to very little effect because the bullets are so small and short, or overexpand to miserably poor effect, under penetration being an issue with such light bullets with poor sectional density, and the expansion itself is pretty miserably poor to create damage.

Don't fall into the "muh velocity" mindset of the 1970's and early 80's. Pathological science. They wanted lighter bullets and believed that that magical fairy spirits would guarantee that ANYTHING no matter how light and small could become super dangerous just by cranking up the velocity a little, tiny, itsy bit. This is where the fallacy that "lighter faster bullets for caliber always do better damage" came from, but this flies in the face of real knowledge and experience. By pretending to think velocity was the ONLY factor in wounding they thought they could create smaller and smaller calibers and bullets and gain MORE effectiveness and save weight and material. The problem is they followed what they WANTED to be true instead of what is.

So keep repeating that velocity number over, and over, and over again like its the only thing that matters, like it makes up for every other problem with the cartridge.

So, thanks again Mr. Marketeer.

>>595753

>According to Mr. Brassfetcher's own data YOU listed

Yes, i literally said it, that comparison was between shitty mass produced SS195 and gucci expensive special loads, the 5.7 still manages to compete

put that with the fact that the 5.7 is an AP round rated for 3A unlike the 9mm –with lower recoil too– and that it's fired by a lightweight handgun that carries 20 rounds of this bitch i think it's the better

>lighter faster bullets for caliber always do better damage"

then do you believe 5.56 is a worse round than 762x39?

>>595756

What in the holy hell did I say? The 5.7 DIDN'T COMPETE YOU FUCKING RETARD. IT FAILED. IT DOES NOT COMPETE WITH GUCCI ROUNDS IT FUCKING FAILED COMPLETELY. Are you deaf? Are you illiterate? Are you retarded? Are you a clever troll? The 5.7 rounds you listed were FAILURES. You listed tests that DISQUALIFIED the 5.7 from consideration, not "compete" with 9mm rounds.

5.7 has less recoil, but also has greater muzzle blast, at some point more of one than the other does not make it objectively easier or better to control. 5.7 can pierce soft body armor, but how often do handguns have to do this?

Which causes more damage, a soft point 5.56 NATO or 7.62x39mm? The short Soviet round comes out on top with the same bullet. The 30-30 using soft point hunting bullets outclasses the 5.56 NATO all day every day, a 170 grain flat nose at 2,200 fps out of the 30-30 will make the 5.56 look relatively weak. A 44 Magnum fired out of a rifle using a 240 grain flat nose soft point at 1,750 fps will outclass the 5.56. Even within the 5.56mm a 77 grain bullet can do more damage than a faster 62 grain, and there is a reason why they don't use 40 grain bullets for anything bigger than varmits in the .224 calibers including the 5.56 NATO. No, velocity isn't the most important factor, its far from being the ONLY factor.

Many slower heavier bullets will outclass faster smaller bullets in damage. You will hear retard grade things like "5.56 NATO is better than 7.62 NATO for doing damage because, like, dude, the 5.56 is like, uhm, 3,200 fps and the 7.62 NATO is like, dood, super slow at, like, uhm, 2,800 fps". But loaded with proper bullets the 308 will do incredible damage, far, far, far, far more potential than similar bullets in 223. The argument of velocity, velocity only, is a giant fallacy.

>>595756

Honestly, if I had to storm a commieblock, I'd rather have the later.

>>595764

You shameless ape, listen to what i'm telling you, parse this shit in your brain (that, if you have one, motherfucker)

You are comparing THE SHITTIEST loads of 5.7 possible, the basic factory load, to THE BEST loads of 9mm ever existed (needless to say ONE OF THEM IS A FUCKING +P ROUND)

Yet the difference between them is a couple of fucking inches in penetration and a bit over 0.1inch² in expansion

Now how about you actually use loads of similar quality for BOTH rounds? oh right, because it's gonna make you look so fucking stupid.

It's a meme gun becuase the feds don't want you to have the good ammo.

If you have the good stuff, then it's a pretty good gun.

>>595810

What makes it a "good gun"? The ammunition they ban form the public is armor piercing, those bullets are poor wounders, if you don't face a man with body armor they not only hold no advantage, they are at a disadvantage. Part of the modern marketing is "well the rounds you buy suck, but the ones you can't get are flying unicorn moon beam grade shit" because the customer will never get their hands on it, and they should accept their subpar ammunition they do get, which might be better in most situations than the ammunition they can't because of the ban. Also the marketing "what are they hiding from you?" mystique. The bullets you can't get aren't that great.

>>595768

Bullets that penetrate over 18 inches are considered below optimal performance, bullets that penetrate less than 12 inches in 10% gel are considered underpenetrators that can't get to vital organs to stop an attack. Anything that can't reach the 12 inch mark in get is considered an absolute failure. The test YOU provided showed every single one of those bullets failed, only one of the 9mm bullets failed. You presented tests that "had a few inches less penetration" but forget that the lack of penetration makes the rounds 100% unqualified for duty or protective use.

Compare similar bullets, the 5.7 simply sucks every time. Expanders like yours end up under penetrating, non expanding bullets don't do serious damage. Its a meme gun because its supposed wounding abilities are either non existent or so poor they aren't worthy of consideration.

>>595861

>Bullets that penetrate over 18 inches are considered below optimal performance

do you have a source for this or is that an arbitrary number you pulled out of your arse?

It's a good gun the issue with it is the price of the gun itself combined with the price of the ammo and the fact that the ammo will not be commonly found in a SHTF situation. I really like the fact that you can load the mags like the standard AR mags (just push down and seat). If ammo wasn't such an issue and I didn't already own other pistols in 9mm and .45 I'd pick one up for sure. I still might get one but I'll be getting something in .357SIG and 10mm first. Basically, every time I think about buying one I end up getting something else. I'd rather have more rifles and carbines laying around than a pistol in an uncommon caliber.

My advice is to go shoot one and see how you like it. It may surprise you.

>>595864

If you don't know what IWBA and FBI protocols for testing are, you either either very ignorant or a true troll. The 12-18 inch optimal zone is well known even by casual observers of gel tests, and everyone who performs them knows of them, and everyone who objectively analyzes cartridge performance USES them.

Read up on the subject. There are criteria that go into analyzing gel data and how it can be useful in real world decision making. Also, keep in mind that attackers don't always march towards you with their chests at a straight 90 degree angle with their arms down giving you the closest distance between their exterior and their vital organs. In many combat scenarios the depth to vital organs can be 12 inches if not more, meaning the minimum isn't even the best performance. Skin exit takes energy and force to punch through, shoot through a mans' arm before his torso you shoot through three layers of skin, perhaps many inches of arm muscle, then get to the man's body.

8 inches of depth seems a lot in perfect situations, but its no where near the depth needed in many real life shots.

>>595874

>The 12-18 inch optimal zone is well known even by casual observers of gel tests, and everyone who performs them knows of them, and everyone who objectively analyzes cartridge performance USES them.

A 7.62x51mm blows right through 12-18 inches of ballistics gel, so i assume that it's shit?

>>595882

"Muh Fort Hood". Hassan was in the military with some firearms training, and was reported to have bought his gun with the intent to train with it, which he did, becoming proficient with it. He was capable and trained with his weapon. The soldiers he killed in many cases made easy targets of themselves by rushing him and closing the distance between themselves and him making his fatal shots up close and easy. Even with all this, 13 people killed and 30 wounded.

Seung-Hui Cho, nutbag extreme buys a Glock 9mm and a Walther 22. No military training, didn't personally train the way Hassan did with his firearm, was autistic whack job. His targets didn't run towards him to give him better shots, they ran away, hid, giving him poorer optimal shot opportunity. With his 22 and 9mm he killed 32 and wounded 17, a virtual complete flip of Hassan's performance, without the advantages.

Want to use a mass shooting as your evidence, I guess we can say safely that the 9mm Luger is vastly superior to the 5.7. Even in the hands of whack job autist with little preperation the 9mm was better than a serious man with better skills and shots with the 5.7.

Your own article states ELEVEN center mass shots and more than 2 chest shots. So you must be shilling or thrilling. Two non fatal head shots. Manning took two shots to the chest area, Hull shot twice in the back, Cooke shot in the head and abdomen 5 times, all which survived their wounds. We start taking in which area the "shoulder" covers, the survived chest shots, the survived head shots, no, its not the magic moon beam killer you and others make it out to be.

The police decided not to go with it because its a shitty performer. 5.56 is far more competent, especially in longer barrels, and not everyone needs or is best off with a super short carbine. Its not just cheaper, its better.

Keep on shillin, though.

>>595874

>>595883

>not wanting a round that'll penetrate through your target, the backstop, the house a county over, some post office on the other side of the planet, continuing to travel the world until it stops in some asian hooker's cunt and opens up a bullet factory

>>595883

The 18 inch maximum is far more for handgun bullet design, not so much to determine how all rifle rounds are designed. Since rifles cause permanent stretch/hydrostatic shock they are in a completely different category, they are designed to penetrate more barriers, are used in different context, designed for longer ranges, ect. When a rifle round punches through 18 inches + of gel its a different story than a handgun. And i'm of the older school that the 18 inch is not the end all of discounting rounds. I live in the country with neighbors a long ways away and I use a 308 battle rifle for self defense (disclaimer people in cities and/or with neighbors should consider other options, this is not an endorsement to use a G3 in a crowded apartment building).

In fact the 18 inch maximum has a lot to do with bullet and load design. Not only is there over penetration of targets to consider with handguns in urban areas, the general theory is that if the handgun bullet punches more than 18 inches its not optimized towards expansion enough. Time for the designers to change the load/bullet to optimize the final cartridge.

>>596001

Fucking hell, you must be in that 44%.

Training means you can make more effective use of the weapon, ie. kill more

This is why first world countries train their troops.

Hassan had military training but the autist did not.

Hassan also had the advantage of his targets running towards him unlike the autist kek

Despite his advantages, Hassan killed fewer people than the autist did.

f09e65 is arguing that this is the result of the weapons they used to carry out their shootings.

>>596015

<Proficiency with a certain firearm leads to more hits and with better placement.

Do you agree with this statement?

>>596015

>get out fudd faggot

You clearly don't know what that means.

>training doesn't make your bullets do more damage.

So there is no difference in a fight between child soldiers in Africa and Alpha Group, provided they are both given the same Kalashnikov rifles?

>>596001

>>596015

>if you shoot a man in the butt or leg with 5.7 he's gonna die because MUH SUPERFAST SANIC TECHNOLOGIES NOTHING PERSONNEL VELOCITY EFFECT

>even if you shoot a man right in the vital organs or the CNS with a 9mm, 10mm or .45 several times it doesn't count because reasons.

>>596018

The child soldiers can dial their weapon damage up an increment of [x]M(urders) though, so it's an unfair comparison. Alpha Group would get fucked.

>>596018

>>596039

In all honesty, judging by his own posts and his display of his own IQ ITT, I'm pretty sure >>596015 is one of those niglets himself, so he probably can give you firsthand accounts.

>>596039

Really can't believe that we have to follow the Geneva conventions with the POWER SLIDER while the little african kids can set their rifles to KILL LEVEL: 800 or even 1200 without consequence. I saw some pictures of a kid using an old WWI assault rifle with the POWER SLIDER set to 2000. Lord rest the cities that got in his way.

>>596015

better start running C-Mags in my concealed carry piece so I can keep my flintlock 105fps bb gun up to scratch with FN's new laser decimator armor rapist not .,22 magnum cartridge then

>>589686

>it's pretty terrifying when it hits a melon.

Now you got me curious, any footage/pics?

>>596017

>Do you agree with this statement?

>terminal ballistics != training

>>596018

>You clearly don't know what that means.

take a quick peek at your gun laws lad.

>So there is no difference in a fight between child soldiers in Africa and Alpha Group, provided they are both given the same Kalashnikov rifles?

your bullets don't do more damage the more training you have.

>terminal ballistics != training

the more training you have the more likely you can do good with the bullets you have. getting shot by a seal team 6 member and getting shot by some 15-year-old gangbanger only matters with

>where are you shot

>what you are shot with

>how fast can you get medical aid

the skill of the person pulling the trigger doesn't effect terminal ballistics no matter how hard you try. i suggest you go back to /v/ and take your brainlet friend with you as well >>596042

>>596020

>strawmanning this hard

imagine being out of arguments with such a simple topic.

>>596235 meant for >>596015

>>596241

>fucken post IDs, how do they work

>>596727

>>596723

I already addressed both points, Hassan's rampage isn't that impressive compared to others like Virginia Tech, as well as why 12 inches may even be too short in some instances. Shoot a man when he is facing towards you with his chest flat to you at a 90 degree angle maybe its a short route to the heart, but change his stance, change his height, change his arms around, now change your stance in regards to him, and suddenly you might have to punch through 16 inches to get to his heart.

The 4-6 inch depth idea makes a definite absolute assumption that the enemy is standing in a perfect stance, with his arms down, facing you directly, which is not the usual stance in combat while defending yourself with a handgun. The 12 inch minimum may even fall short in many real life scenarios, which is why 18 inches is considered superior. This is why 12 inch is a MINIMUM and closer to 18 is better. Video attached explains in detail.

First you don't read my other post about Hassan. Then apparently you make some very strong assumptions based on minimum dimensions as being the optimum or only dimensions. People who think 6 inches in gel is good enough are dangerously incorrect.

>>596751

>I already addressed both points, Hassan's rampage isn't that impressive

5.7 performance was more than adequate for the pistol caliber and fact he fought not the soyboys and pussies but bulked up Marine recruits (who are fatter than 90% men in this world, still "underpenetrating" round got their large frames fine ). More than average death to wounded ratio and no single failure to stop.

>>596751

> and closer to 18 is better.

No its not. See the point 5. No point about 18 superiority. Even more, all maximum disruption should be under 12.

>>596158