/k/ - Weapons

*above

The real question isn't if you can blow it up in the air but if you can survive the blast if you blow it up in the air.

Sage for cuckan tier OP

Russia does not exist.

Have you, personally, been to Russia? Have you seen it?

If not, then you must agree there is no direct evidence for its existence, unless you take the word of others. But why would you trust them? Such organizations as NASA claim to have been to Russia, do you trust them? There are flights supposedly going to Russia, but they are instead going to an outpost in Ireland. After all, Russia is supposedly mostly potato: quite a coincidence it looks a lot like areas in the yurop where few people travel, isn't it? We have established there is no reliable evidence for Russia. It has not been personally verified, and those who claim to live there are either shills or don't understand that they are in Ireland.There is also motive: shekels that would be sent to the country is instead added to the jews coffers.

Hit rate would be very low, since it could only see the missile at point blank range.

But a Pantsir could do it easily, and Syria has plenty of those.

>>573441

>>573441

Ok Kant.

>>573473

Russia released the list of what they used:

Pantsir-S1 - 25 missiles hit 23 targets

Buk-M2E - 29 missiles hit 24 targets

Osa - 11 hit 5

S-125 - 13 hit 5

Strela-10 - 5 hit 3

Kvadrat - 21 hit 11

S-200 - 8 hit 0

>>573505

It's been three days. Where are the pictures of the downed Tomahawks?

>>573513

So NATO fired like $40M worth of missiles and all they achieved was putting a few craters in the ground? shamfur dispray

NATO is probably understating how many they fired and Russia is probably overstating how many they fired.

>>573514

>NATO is probably understating how many they fired and Russia is probably overstating how many they fired.

They're saying the same number.

Well Russia says 102 and NATO 105. Also Russia said France didn't participate, which makes me think the 3 missing are the MdCN that probably self destructed on jamming. Those things have been known to have a finicky integration on FREMM and then the Russians just assumed all the SCALPs were UK's Storm Shadow since only the name is different.

>>573441

do you have the North Korea doesn't exist, or Sex doesn't exist version of this copypasta?

>>573514

>shamfur dispray

thats what happens when your military industry is a cesspool of corruption that produces extremely overpriced garbage that was never ment to be used in real war.

>>573515

So was it worth it to the Russians to be there now that they've all of this experience and knowledge?

>>573505

That sounds about right, 70 hit by air defense, maybe another dozen veered off course due to ewar, leaving bout a dozen on target. Given three to five targets it means one or two missiles impacting each target, which is consistent with data.

NATO claims 105 launches and I believe them.

Russia claims 102 entered airspace, likely three malfunctioned, that doesnt seem like some wild claim.

Air survey name five or so buildings destroyed.

Ergo… a supermajority of missiles didnt reach target.

>>573525

They can now put a 7/10 sticker on their arms sales pitch.

It wasnt even a full IADS or S-class battery, just some truck based systems and some obsolete cold war equipment. Yet it was combat tested against the worlds best militaries, it stared down an assault from the most advanced countries in the world with an acceptable hit rates. So if Nigeria wants protection against SA…. their one stop shop will be the Pantsir.

In the next five years their military sales will net enough cash to cover the whole Syria expedition and still turn enough profit to put some of their shelved projects into service.

>>573528

Not to be contrarian, aside from the recent Israeli attack we really don't have much in the way of evidence for the soviet AD systems akshully 7/10'ing. Likelyhood says Russia was wary enough to step in, despite their claims the Syrians did it alone.

>>573528

Is NATO panicking about now?

>>573534

The ones smart enough to panic were the ones against this strike from the start. The rest are so deep into their own propaganda they'll continue to believe unless mainland Europe is invaded.

>>573513

>They fired 100+ missiles at 8 targets, they only hit two undefended secondary target and a third with minimal damage.

A monitor with a really big cannon would have been cheaper and potentially more effective that this.

>>573540

one dude with a backpack full of dynamite would have done more damage.

>>573532

By NATO claims none of the missiles came close to Russian air defense system coverage, not that it would matter much for marketing purposes who operated the Russian system that 7/10'd the attack.

>>573543

Two chinese women with 50 cent knifes could kill 33 people and wound 147.

>>573525

They're gonna rack billions in hard currency for AD systems that's for sure, even fence sitters like India, South American countries might buy entire grids now to keep uncle freedom or local threats at bay, let alone all the usual Russian customers.

Also the US fired 19 JASSM (allegedly at the research center, which sounds about the amount one should have fired at it…) so that's certainly juicy data I'm sure.

>>573534

>Is NATO panicking about now?

>>573535

>The ones smart enough to panic were the ones against this strike from the start. The rest are so deep into their own propaganda they'll continue to believe

Panic might be a strong word.

I honestly think that it roughly went like this:

All the tomahawks were intercepted.

The SCALP/Storm Shadow it's a mixed bag.

For MdCN (naval extended range version of the SCALP) it's a total failure.

All the JASSM hit flawlessly.

So what have we learned:

-That Tomahawks are obsolete… No shit, fucking old SA-8 Gecko were capable of intercepting them in the first gulf war 27 years ago! Tomahawks should have been started to be replaced late 90's early 2000, around 2010 if delayed (by a stealthy system), after 20 to 30 years of adequate and loyal service.

Instead there isn't even a successor program AFAIK (which should have been a stealth + supersonic terminal boost in the work being adopted/tested around now), because they were so great at exploding mud huts the US Navy has forgotten the very existence of air defense systems.

Which is something that should have caused a panic in the USN 20 years ago so I'm gonna hazard the guess that's it's not gonna cause one now (because they will argue that given the amount one AB packs they can do saturation attacks which is a valid point… And the Navy always like the sight of burning stacks of money).

-That the SCALP/Storm Shadow (which are almost the same missile) are jam sensitive (a Russian reports says there is a 9th impact not on the pictures of Him Shinshar CW storage in a field nearby which is definitely not normal those things are all extremely accurate in range conditions) but they still scored some hits, so that's fixable via little changes in software/hardware (UK ones might have a much better success rate than French ones for example).

For MdCN, it's probably a teething issue given that far too few money was spent and not enough testing was done with them (given that France had to pay for all of it… yep neither UK or Italy apparently want an indigenous sub-launched/ship launched long range cruise missile. I'm sure Rabbytheon had nothing to do with it) which again doesn't really comes as a surprise. The amount fired was small because we really don't have many (maybe 20) and this was more a live test fire than anything.

That JASSM works as intended, which is always nice.

Too bad the USAF will be retiring all the fighter planes capable of firing them soon HAHAHAHAHA.

So there is nothing to really panic about (since really only one type of weapon doesn't work the rest is fixable), but a sensible modicum of alarm should be welcome.

Because as stated before the Russians didn't do anything, except upgrading the old Syrian soviet AD with modern tech and plugging the gaps in the AD net with some modern point defense here, some newer SA-11 there and most importantly free training.

Russia is exporting much more modern AD than that to it's "strategic" partners (China, Algeria, Iran, Vietnam, Venezuela, etc…) which we aren't really in great terms either.

And we all know Russia never export shit they don't have a better version at home.

>>573568

>they still scored some hits, so that's fixable via little changes in software/hardware

Do we know how this kind of jamming works? Did they confuse GPS signals or something else?

>>573568

Hey you know those subs that were reconfigured to launch cruise missiles? How much money would it cost to update those subs to use new missiles?

>>573570

GPS / GLONASS is piss easy to mess around with, i mean all the power they get is some signal of a few satellite in orbit. You can guess that even with the best solar panels they cannot give a lot of power, and they have some nice shit to go through like several hundred kilometers, multiple atmospheres … I you put a jammer on that frequency or just record some signals of some other location and replay it strongly enough, you can most likely confuse any GPS / GLONASS System.

It's known since long that the Kremlin is protected against GPS piloted devices.

"−127.5 dBm 0.178 fW = 178 aW Typical received signal power from a GPS satellite" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBm

Yeah anon, that's the dB(m) scale, the 178aW means Thousands of times less that when you get only one bar from your Wifi …

Any electrician having access to a country electric grid can most likely jam it without major problems. (Except for people's health around).

So to use a GPS or any satellite dependent location service for something as critical as the position of your missile is by any standards beyond retardation.

>>573579

>How much money would it cost to update those subs to use new missiles?

None, if you make the missile use the same VLS (well they would still bill you billions but objectively none).

That's what great with VLS modular cells.

You can easily change missiles models with a software upgrade as long as you can make the new missile fit in a standard canister.

For subs the ideal would be designing a VLS cell that fit one ICBM or a number of standard canister.

>>573570

>Did they confuse GPS signals

GPS is jammed almost constantly jammed in the greater Syrian area (all the way to Cyprus). As >>573594 said it's the easy part. Military GPS have a way to ID spoofed GPS signals and the on-board computer disregard GPS when it happens since GPS is only used for minimal corrections which augment the CEP but shouldn't do it drastically.

>>573568

If the hit rates you say are right, hopefully the chair force will get its shit together and devote more to CAS. But we both know that's never happening…

>>573608

I thought that in modern systems GPS is only used to get the start location and an onboard accelerometer and gyroscope let the missile know its speed/direction, and it uses only onboard measurements to fly to the destination to prevent jamming.

>>573629

>an onboard accelerometer and gyroscope let the missile know its speed/direction, and it uses only onboard measurements to fly to the destination to prevent jamming.

This is shit that existed on V2…

GPS correction allows the INS (inertial navigation system) to check where the missile calculated it is with what the GPS is telling him it is at regular intervals (because on board measurement are very easily wrong, the longer you fly, the more you maneuver, every tiny measurement error compound with one another exponentially. Now those are extremely precise instrument, hence the price tag of cruise missiles, but even so rocket science is rocket science a tiny error can mean you're hitting Damascus market instead of Damascus research center because your missile came from stupidly far).

The GPS is only one of the corrections, all modern cruise missile have a computer loaded with satellite data maps (altitude and relief) of the area it's flying and the seeker analyze the terrain and compared it with the datastore. And finally they should have an IR approximate picture of the target for a final check.

The seeker is possibly jammable if you know the details of the seeker but really shouldn't be easy to pull off.

>>573594

Can't speak towards GLONASS, but GPS jamming or spoofing is an extremely difficult task to preform. It's not as simple as just jamming or confusing a signal. All US GPS sats broadcast on the same to bands L-1 and L-2, over a CDMA spread-spectrum technique using a pseudo-random sequence that a receiving unit has to know to receive data, on top of which the military only use uses P code which is (Y) encrypted, which is the P code modulated via the W code and is also a pseudo-random sequence that's over 700 gigabits long and transmits once a week.

>>573641

>Can't speak towards GLONASS, but GPS jamming or spoofing is an extremely difficult task to preform. It's not as simple as just jamming or confusing a signal. All US GPS sats broadcast on the same to bands L-1 and L-2, over a CDMA spread-spectrum technique using a pseudo-random sequence that a receiving unit has to know to receive data, on top of which the military only use uses P code which is (Y) encrypted, which is the P code modulated via the W code and is also a pseudo-random sequence that's over 700 gigabits long and transmits once a week.

You can't mimick military GPS signal to take over a weapon, but you can simply "drown" the signal all over the GPS band because it's weak altogether.

The weapon/drone will recognize it's not the right signal, but will not be able to get the right signal anyway because the jammer is more powerful than the satellite, making it disregard the GPS input.

CDMA was invented by the russians… they know very well what to do to fuck with it.

Which is also why no weapon are "GPS only", GPS is only ever use to correct trajectories (never to actually aim) and cruise missiles almost never rely on it but first on INS second on terrain analysis (TERCOM + DSMAC for US missiles. That alone gives you a 15 to 50m CEP).

GPS being added to the mix to be the triple check mostly for the few times where INS + terrain analysis isn't enough (too varied terrain for the seeker to reliably interpret the data it takes with datastores or not enough varied, like above the sea).

>>573655

It might be possible to at least send misleading info that kicks the missile off by a few hundred meters, if they Russians are crazy enough to have electronic warfare satellites in orbit.

>>573655

>You can't mimick military GPS signal to take over a weapon, but you can simply "drown" the signal all over the GPS band because it's weak altogether.

>The weapon/drone will recognize it's not the right signal, but will not be able to get the right signal anyway because the jammer is more powerful than the satellite, making it disregard the GPS input.

Are you just here to point out the obvious? No shit a signal can be drowned out, that was my point to our fine Chocolate making friend, you can't spoof or confuse GPS, receives will just ignore the signal and continue to search for another stronger signal from another sat source.

>CDMA was invented by the russians… they know very well what to do to fuck with it.

You don't say, came into use in 63' as apart of their integrated early warning civil defense and national military communications infrastructure for vehicle-borne communications.

>Which is also why no weapon are "GPS only", GPS is only ever use to correct trajectories (never to actually aim) and cruise missiles almost never rely on it but first on INS second on terrain analysis (TERCOM + DSMAC for US missiles. That alone gives you a 15 to 50m CEP).

No shit, I was the Strelok who brought up TERCOM in the other thread.

>GPS being added to the mix to be the triple check mostly for the few times where INS + terrain analysis isn't enough (too varied terrain for the seeker to reliably interpret the data it takes with datastores or not enough varied, like above the sea).

Again, no shit.

>>576098

The amazing conclusion of that is that Russia is lying when they say that 32 went through…

It's less than that. They claim 4 hit the unused Mezzeh AB and 3 hit the vicinity of the Homs AB.

But we're still missing 5, so they likely count shit that got lost in the desert or something.

>>576098

Well, you can always apply good old market logic to this problem.

What percentage of your cruise missiles actually make it to the general area of the target?

What percentage gets jammed/self destructs?

What percentage gets shot down?

What percentage does no damage despite impact?

If you know these numbers you can do a rough calculation on how many missiles you require to actually destroy a target. Add a safety factor of 1.5 to 2 and you can reasonably assume that you can destroy your target.

Also: intercepting missiles requires your own interceptor missiles, of which there is a limited supply too Unless you use AA guns, which have ammo out the ass and can be resupplied a lot easier.

So you can either launch just the required amount of missiles, to overwhelm the enemy's defense systems, or launch more missiles (with a safety factor depending on jamming and navigation failures) than the enemy has interceptors ready.

I bet you the first option will be a lot cheaper, since it doesn't require you to launch more missiles than the enemy has interceptors.

Maybe this entire thing was just "reconnaissance in force". Figureing out how many missiles the Russians can actually shoot down (with different missile systems involved) allows you to judge how many missiles you require, how their defence systems operate, and what their response times are.

It would be interesting to figure out where the NATO planes were during the strike. If they were close to the missile defense systems they could probably gather some direct video footage and record the radar signatures of the different systems in use. This would probably an extremely dangerous mission, because you don't know if the Russians/Syrians would decide to go hostile on any air in the area after the incidents, or if a stray interceptor could lock on to one of your planes, but it could provide valuable information.

>>576099

They also displayed parts of shit they shot down. And claimed they got a part of JASSM, which has a stealth coating that's actually more advanced than F-35…

https://www.rt.com/news/425154-syria-us-missile-russia/

>>576101

Except the Russian didn't do shit (besides coordinating the Syrians).

Except a JASSM/Tomahawk/SCALP are well above $1M per when (more like above $3M per for JASSM/SCALP) a Panstir missile is maybe 10k (maybe less, some estimate are within a couple of thousands per. Those things don't have seekers in them, they're especially designed to be cost effective).

Except to overwhelm one Pantsir battery you need over 72 cruise missiles (and they would still have guns and Pantsirs are just the last layer).

Except none of the shit the Syrians used is actually in service with in the Russian army >>573505 (they field better to much better versions of those. Photos from Hmeim are insane you have the entire fucking line up of Russian Air defense, you have Pantsirs-S2 batteries, backing Tor-M2 batteries, backing Buk-M2 batteries, backing S-300VM batteries, backing S-400 batteries. All of which sustained by land EW batteries. To defend ONE base. You would a saturation attack with MIRVed Tridents to get through it).

>>576101

>It would be interesting to figure out where the NATO planes were during the strike. If they were close to the missile defense systems they could probably gather some direct video footage and record the radar signatures of the different systems in use. This would probably an extremely dangerous mission, because you don't know if the Russians/Syrians would decide to go hostile on any air in the area after the incidents, or if a stray interceptor could lock on to one of your planes, but it could provide valuable information.

I don't think you realize how much we suck at EW and how much the Russian like EW. It's the one thing they were really good at during WWII (as an extension of artillery which they always liked) and no-one ever gave them credit for.

We have scraped all dedicated EW platforms save the bigger ones and pretend that integrated pods do the same job, they might do the same job than late 1970's dedicated platforms but they certainly don't do the job a dedicated 2010's platform would do.

And it get worse the bigger ones are being constantly blinded and disabled by Russian EW (https://vimeo.com/266382718 9:20 , SOCCOM general mentions in passing how EC-130 are getting regularly disabled in Syria. The whole keynote is interesting in the sense of how fucking worrying it is that the US ground forces are behind the NYPD, while french FELIN kits started getting mass issued in 2010, Russian Ratnik 2015, etc…).

>>576214

The soviets had largely stopped using Shilkas by 1991 old timer.

Tunguska are only used for mobile defense of armored units.

>>573441

>There are flights supposedly going to Russia, but they are instead going to an outpost in Ireland.

Implying Ireland is actually a country.

>>576509

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because none of the missiles were shot down by modern Russia tech, Syrian forces were using the old last-gen stuff that Russia exports. So it wasn't an effective test of Russia's defense capabilities and even with last-gen stuff Assad's forces BTFO of those missiles.

>>576509

It's actually about getting Russia to fuck off from the Mediterranean and Black sea.

The entire Arab spring was contrived to get Russia out of its Mediterranean bases. The entire Maidan coup in Ukraine was contrived to get Russia out of the Black sea bases in Crimea.

The ultimate reason why getting Russia out of Mediterranean and Black sea is because major gas and oil pathway goes through there, and they don't want Russia to be able to protect it.

The ultimate goal of stopping the oil is weakening Russia economically, since it relies on oil as much as Venezuela it would die if that lifeline was cut. And a dead Russia makes NWO possible… the Chinese are willing to be dealt-in.

It was a well formed plan, and it would have worked too if it wasn't for that dastardly Putin.

>>576525

This.

The USraelis won't stop until Russia is disintegrated, it was their goal 100+ years ago, it will be their goal in 100+ years for now (hopefully).

You can read in any number of publication by gigakikes like Brzezinski or Kissinger that essentially goes literally "Russia having so much natural resources is unfair". This right there is the basis of the (((anglos))) policies toward Russia. Russia has too much shit so they need to be broken apart by any means necessary.

They though they had succeeded with Lenin and communism (it came back with a vengeance), they though they had succeeded with Yeltsin and mass-scale swindling (it's coming back with a vengeance).

All of it is the same long standing policy. All the international events (that the MSM speak off, note how no one speaks of various coups in Africa or the recent Korean revolution in SK for that matters) are the fruit of that same policy.

Russia is constantly under attack because they dare defend their own interests and they're largely the only country to have the power, resources and economy to actually do it.

Cue Hitler speech about "all that matter to them is: are you willing to be plundered or not."

And exactly like 1930's Germany, Russia is aware of it and is actively preparing for it. And exactly like 1930's Germany Russia has been getting both a tech and military advantage (using the same technique of semi-public companies competitions and open designs entries). And exactly like 1930's Germany we have deluded ourselves that we have a military supremacy over them, despite our tech being largely obsolete and our armies are a joke.

Meanwhile instead of preparing for war, we just organize the constant political aggression and will pretend to be surprised when someone in the Kremlin finally snaps and decide enough is enough.

You have no idea how bad things really are.

And you have no idea how worse it's gonna get.

>>576653

>Crimea = Sudetenland/Austria

>Syria = Spain

It's all coming together. Brzezinski and Kissinger also believed in the Pivot Area / Heartland idea, that whatever power controlled Central Asia and Siberia could dominate the whole continent. Thus the USSR and Russia's location threatens the whole balance of power of "Eurasia" so it's not just Russia's resources and potential economic strength that threaten the US, but it's very position on the map. And both of them are concerned with America maintaining the 'balance of power', just like post-1815 Britain's continental policies.

Brzezinski:

>Europe and Asia are politically and economically powerful

>It follows that American foreign policy must employ its influence in Eurasia in a manner that creates a stable continental equilibrium, with the United States as the political arbiter

>Eurasia is thus the chessboard on which the struggle for global primacy continues to be played, and that struggle involves geo-strategy – the strategic management of geopolitical interests

>But in the meantime it is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges, capable of dominating Eurasia and thus also of challenging America

>For America the chief geopolitical prize is Eurasia and America's global primacy is directly dependent on how long and how effectively its preponderance on the Eurasian continent is sustained

Neither of them seem to have considered the idea that Eurasian powers might get fed up with American foreign involvement.

>>576653

I actually think the war between russia and the west is inevitable, and despite being 60x poorer, russia will hold its own enough so that we will both be destroyed equally. White people will be all-but extinct, asians will collapse into hegemony, the developing world will suffer greatly without food and medical aid from the west, biological weapons will destroy much of the population and plunge the world into famine. The massive famine will force everyone in the world to revert to subsistence level farming to survive, which will eventually evolve into feudalism. This period will be in effect a new "dark age", a lot worse than the previous one, and will last two thousand years. Eventually an Archon of a warrior priesthood will command the kingdoms under his protection to dig in the dirt to find our technology, and thereby revive civilization. Eventually they will improve themselves through eugenics, genetic engineering and cybernetics beyond the civilization we have now, and will leave this planet to populate the solar system. The survivors of these two thousand years will call it "the Long Night". So it has been prophesied.

>>576653

It's already going worse thanks to Israel and their throwing missiles at Syria and Iran to get a reaction.

It's pretty easy to see that they want to make Syria another Afghanistan for Russia,keep them there as long as possible,but it's not going to happen and shit could go really bad for Israel.Saudis,Qatar and US are its only allies in the zone,but Saudis have already several deals with Russia and China(important to remember, OBOR pass through Syria and Iran, even if not directly because their first fear is the Pacific,they are very involved there), and Qatar will probably say fuck off after the shit that happened. So it leaves the US,but are they willing to sacrifice everything,because that's what it means, for Israel? I have doubts about it.

On the other side you have literally everyone who wants Israel role ridimensioned or even completely partitioned,and with their fuck up by promoting Kurdistan,they got Turkey to play for the other side in exchange for a gas pipeline

>>576653

I really can't comprehend what the fuck is going in the heads of those idiots. I'm certainly not a russiaboo, but even I can realize that poking a bear with nukes is not fun. Even if they really had the technology to stop ICBMs, what the hell do they plan to do with tactical nukes? "Best" case scenario for all involved parties is that most of Belorussia and Ukraine get glassed and everybody calms down. In addition, time works against both Russia and the West with the current birth rates, but something tells me the West declines a lot faster, so they only have so much time before Europe and North America turn into Brazil with islamic communism.

>>576675

Hasn't Qatar already mostly fucked off from the KSA/Gulf axis because Saudi Barbaria tried to blame all the state-supported terrorism and ISIS funding on them? Or did they kiss and make up eventually?

>>576707

There should still the blockade but it's US that has the last word and Pompeo yesterday said that Saudi and Qatar should be friends again and make a front, along with Israel, against Iran.

US will probably stay out I think.

>>576684

>Even if they really had the technology to stop ICBMs

Come on, now. We all knew the claim that ABMs can stop ICBMs reentering at mach 25+ with almost 99.9999…% accuracy back in the 80s was total bullshit, even with neutron with warheads.

Now that MIRVs and decoys&countermeasures-mounted warheads exist and that western ABMs have kinetic warheads, that need a bullseye against the missile or warhead, the claim that an ABM-network can provide any sort of meaningful protection against an all-out nuclear exchange only make one look like an unreliable stupid liar.

>>576749

Forgive me for asking such a silly question, but how dumb of an Idea would it be to repurpose ballistic missiles for the purpose of launching suborbital glide bombs?

Could the bombs reach Hawaii with missiles launched from the Korean peninsula without the US noticing?

t. absolute brainlet