094593 No.546090
Is there anything as cute as the Luchs?
Is it wrong to be sexually attracted to tanks?
156319 No.546096
I'd say an m22 locust is close
5f9bda No.546128
>>546090
>I know some of you are going to give me shit for this, but I'm in love with an Alvis Saladin.
>No, I'm not a freak and I'm not a predator, I'm a person just like you
>Besides she's very mature for her weight class
>You do know that before the governments of this world started preaching about what minimum weight limits people were allowed everyone used much lighter weapons and vehicles?
>It was perfectly normal for people of every country and class to use a vehicle (called a horse) that frequently weighs less that a tonne.
>Suddenly people just decided out of nowhere that anything under 18 tonnes is now the domain of freaks, monsters, and 'light vehicle molesters' (an originally positive term from ancient Greece that they corrupted).
>If I was talking about how much I loved my Armoured Car anywhere other than a Sudanese Mosaic Appreciation Forum I could be fired from my job, lose friends and family, or even be arrested.
>It is not a crime to love!
>Even if she is a little bit under 18 tonnes.
>I'm a light armoured vehicle lover, not a monster.
e7e895 No.546134
>Luchs
>not posting the superior version
Amphibious recon cuties=best cuties.
95be17 No.546152
e7e895 No.546159
>>546152
I got to work with some.
Tanks are mostly dirty sluts that do it with three to four guys at the same time. Some even have "crew-compartements" in the rear that can fit an entire squad.
They like it rough and have no mind for holding hands, or confessing your love with anything but an AT grenade in your hand.
Dirty whores I tell ya!
57865c No.546166
>>546159
Pretty much this.
Tanks are manky slags that wouldn't mind you fingering her up the dove pond around Blighty at 2:30. They aren't picky about what goes inside them so they are dirty as hell, carrying who knows what.
716f83 No.546178
>not wanting a tank with two guns
dc0ac0 No.546181
8fbf13 No.546184
This is the Marmon-Herrington CLTS, in Dutch colonial service.
It is adorable.
fc267c No.546185
>>546178
Absolute pieces of utter trash. Even your M3 Lee was atrocious and was only ever liked for having an actual AT gun compared to the rest of the trashy tanks the allies had early in the war.
e7e895 No.546188
>>546181
The feminine weld line though
716f83 No.546198
>>546185
>your
The Char B1 B was a frog tank. Wrecked everything it came up against in the early war.
"Whether this left the Char B1 less-formidable in actual combat than a review of its impressive statistics suggests, is difficult to ascertain. In 1940, the vast majority of Char B1 combat losses were inflicted by German artillery and anti-tank guns. In direct meetings with German tanks the Char B1 usually had the better of it, sometimes spectacularly so as when on 16 May a single tank, Eure (commanded by Captain Pierre Billotte), frontally attacked and destroyed thirteen German tanks lying in ambush in Stonne, all of them Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs, in the course of a few minutes.[3] The tank safely returned despite being hit 140 times. Similarly, in his book Panzer Leader, Heinz Guderian related an incident, which took place during a tank battle south of Juniville: "While the tank battle was in progress I attempted, in vain, to destroy a Char B with a captured 47 mm. anti-tank gun; all the shells I fired at it simply bounced harmlessly off its thick armour. Our 37 mm. and 20 mm. guns were equally ineffective against this adversary. As a result, we inevitably suffered sadly heavy casualties.""
5f9bda No.546208
>>546188
Does it also have a feminine penis Krautbro?
>Webm related is what you're actually into, isn't it.
e7e895 No.546215
>>546208
>penis
No. Tank traps are not gay though.
5f9bda No.546216
>>546215
>Tank traps
>The gayest form of defence against armoured vehicles.
>What-are-AT-mines?.jpg
716f83 No.546218
>>546216
>talking shit about AT mines
5f9bda No.546219
>>546218
Exactly the opposite of what I was doing m8.
fc267c No.546224
>>546198
Learn how to read nigger.
>Look how awesome this piece of utter trash when it fights against infantry-support tanks heh
Target acquisition was abhorrent, it had a shitty one-man turret that led to absolutely zero situational awareness whenever the commander was loading the shitty gun. The crew layout was even worse and the fucking tank lacked seats.
>Wrecked everything it came up against in the early war.
Except for when the crews had to abandon that huge pile of shit because of engine problems and for sticking out like sore thumbs for the German Luftwaffe to practice their aim on.
>Captain Pierre Billotte, frontally attacked and destroyed thirteen German tanks lying in ambush in Stonne
You forgot to mention that his entire unit got wiped out and his tank was the only survivor.
e7e895 No.546229
>>546216
tank traps are
>cheaper
>can be in store forever
>never fail
>provide cover for your infantry if you so wish
>force the enemy to dismount their IFVs if they want to fight you
>can block entire streets
>need no concealment
>can be concealed never the less
>must be removed by crane or with lots of explosives,
>won't leave your agricultural land littered with deathtraps for years to come
>can be placed where they are needed before the war, and moved over a meter to completely block a route
>come in many different shapes and sizes
>can be as complex as a set charge dug into a small bridge built into a road set to explode as soon as the war starts, causing the small bridge to become structurally unsafe for large loads to cross and as soon as a tank rolls over it collapses
>can be as simple as a really wide trench
Whereas mines are
<expensive to make
<have a shelf life of maybe a decade or two
<can fail even if they are fresh out of the factory
<don't provide cover for anyone
<no FoF
<can't be used on streets, too obvious
<must be concealed, won't work otherwise
<can be removed by one guy with a metal detector and a spade
<will turn your agricultural land into the largest ever playable version of minesweeper
<can't be deployed large scale before the war, must be individually placed as soon as hostilities commence
<can be as complex as a shaped charge triggered by some fancy mechanism
<can be as simple as a shaped charge triggered without a fancy mechanism
5f9bda No.546235
>>546229
Tank traps are still gay, Germany. Your rationalisation only proves that you're insecure on the subject.
fc267c No.546244
>>546235
Tank traps are aesthetic as fuck you faggot and not only do they look fucking cool, they are cool because they fucking work and will always work.
e7e895 No.546250
>>546244
Tanktraps will work long after Humans forget about them, while mines will rust away and eventually either self-destruct or become useless.
A good and proper concrete tanktrap can last for centuries, and will stop tanks even after their original creator is long gone. They are loyal protectors of your home. No matter how high the tides may rise, or how stormy the weather: tanktraps remain, while your gay little AT mine is flushed away by some light rain.
f9445b No.546275
>>546250
Different tactics work for different nations, Germany-kun. For example, tank traps are efficient, mass-produceable and logical, which is why they make perfect sense for you. Meanwhile, the British survive and thrive by constantly injecting a flow of misery and civilian casualties into the world so they prefer the mines instead.
e7e895 No.546285
>>546275
So bombing Pakis with drones is the US way of aiding Britain? :^)
284843 No.546309
>>546128
But anon, her tracks haven’t even come in yet.
57865c No.546325
>>546224
That is one retarded looking frog. What's it name?
6ddc7f No.546326
>>546244
>Greek is a fan of traps
Why am I not surprised?
348fbf No.546327
>>546229
>shelf life
Mate, there are forests that still have active mines from the allied invasion that still aren't clear because of what was used in their construction.
f2fd0f No.546362
Type 89 a cute; it couldn't fight another tank but it was good enough to kill chink civilians Guerrillas.
57865c No.546420
>>546362
>First pic
He looks like the happiest nip in the world. Like he's away to commit some war crimes
aa6bfc No.546422
>no mention of the wiesel
Its the cutest little thing on tracks.
38d5b1 No.546428
>>546422
>had the entire folder of those edits
>lost it
57865c No.546482
Why did Germany never make a half-Tank-half-Stug like France, Japan and US did?
e7e895 No.546539
>>546482
Because we did, faggot.
5f9bda No.546555
>>546275
>the British survive and thrive by constantly injecting a flow of misery and civilian casualties into the world
>MFW reading that
>That's probably not a good sign.
>>546309
Don't pretend those delicious, trackless, wheels don't get you hard; and even if they don't, just look at that turret!
>>546539
But you couldn't get the 8.8cm Flak onto a STUG, could you Germany.
1e31cb No.546565
>>546285
Hey, like father like son. Aside from spelling aluminum with -ium or -por as -pour. That's just senile old man talk which we've ditched in favor of our hip and modern American spelling.
5f9bda No.546641
>>546565
>That's just senile old man talk which we've ditched in favour of our hip and modern American spelling
>Not enjoying the historical and cultural story told through the journey from Early English, through the various forms of Middle English, to Modern English.
>Trying to 'rationalise' English spelling and pronunciation because a few American language fetishists got bored in the late 19th century.
>Not gaining perverse pleasure from the nightmare that proper English spelling and pronunciation provides for foreign learners.
To be entirely fair to you guys we should probably have adapted Middle English rather than trying to move 'beyond it', but people look at you funny if you try to use it today.
Alle beon he blithe
That to my song lythe!
A sang ich schal you singe
Of Murry the Kinge.
King he was biweste
So longe so hit laste.
Godhild het his quen;
Faire ne mighte non ben.
He hadde a sone that het Horn;
Fairer ne mighte non beo born,
Ne no rein upon birine,
Ne sunne upon bischine.
Fairer nis non thane he was:
He was bright so the glas;
He was whit so the flur;
Rose red was his colur.
(First verse of 'King Horn' the oldest extant Romance in English poetry - author currently unknown)
I think that's rather beautiful, and abandoning the idea of standardised spelling would also allow people to write more naturally in the accent they talk with.
c9a8ba No.546672
>>546641
>Alle beon he blithe
That to my song lythe!
A sang ich schal you singe
Of Murry the Kinge.
King he was biweste
So longe so hit laste.
Godhild het his quen;
Faire ne mighte non ben.
He hadde a sone that het Horn;
Fairer ne mighte non beo born,
Ne no rein upon birine,
Ne sunne upon bischine.
Fairer nis non thane he was:
He was bright so the glas;
He was whit so the flur;
Rose red was his colur.
(First verse of 'King Horn' the oldest extant Romance in English poetry - author currently unknown)
Is this what the Anglish “movement” is trying to recreate or are they just taking the literal translation of German words to replace Latin originated words in English?
>Alle beon he blithe
That to my song lythe!
A sang ich schal you singe
Of Murry the Kinge.
Would that be “All be-on he blith
That to my song he lyth!
A sang ick (itch?) schall you sing
Of Murry the king?
Or would it be pronounced more German-like, with the Es not being silent but more like an A sound, and Ich being the Hochdeutsch pronouncation like Eecch?
5f9bda No.546677
>>546672
>Is this what the Anglish “movement” is trying to recreate or are they just taking the literal translation of German words to replace Latin originated words in English?
I haven't worked with the primary sources personally, but the full poem was compiled from three manuscripts held in the British & Bodleian Libraries. The Anglish Moot is a fun idea, but I don't think they've gotten as far as 'recreating' 1545 lines of Medieval Romantic poetry.
>The pronunciation questions
That would have depended on whereabouts in England you were from at the time. This was written at a point where we hadn't even begun to standardise weights and measures, English wasn't even the official language of England at that point fucking Norman shitmunchers. Standardised pronunciation was a little beyond them.
57865c No.546678
>>546648
What would Australian rate under?
c9a8ba No.546679
>>546677
>The Anglish Moot is a fun idea, but I don't think they've gotten as far as 'recreating' 1545 lines of Medieval Romantic poetry.
I don’t think they’ve even figured much out besides translating a few words. I believe the grammar is the exact same.
>English wasn't even the official language of England at that point
Well that’s because the Anglo-SAXONs weren’t native to the island. The modern Germanic-Celtic mixed Englishman was still several raped generations away.
>>546678
English (Prison Slang)
45bfe7 No.546689
5f9bda No.546690
>>546678
Aussies: English (Shitposting)
Welsh: English (Technically)
946443 No.546704
>>546690
>implying aussies are better shitposters than fucking foliage
2e3353 No.546707
>>546690
Irish: English (Drunk)
665b85 No.546710
>>546090
>Is it wrong to be sexually attracted to tanks?
unironically no
5f9bda No.546714
>>546704
You maples can only dream of reaching the levels of shitposting that comes naturally to the convict monkeys.
57865c No.546719
>>546704
To be fair Canada only got internet in the last 5 years or so.
35a6ac No.546728
>>546714
>aussies
>loved throughout the site
>playful bants directed at them
>Canadians
>universally hated
>always attacked even when not shitposting
If your shitposting earns you adimiration, you’re not shitposting right.
>>546715
See above
>>546719
The only reason anti-Canada have developed their shitposting skills is because their internet is so slow they plan for hours to make their shitposts because it will take hours to post.
aa6bfc No.546733
>>546728
>canuckian
>taking shitposting seriously
Im not surprised in the least.
5f9bda No.546736
>>546728
Hey, if you want to swap for being mocked, ridiculed, and insulted for decisions made by politicians before you gained the vote then by all means come home and enjoy your new life as 'lol, nofuns britcuck GB2prepping Ahmed!'. I'll swap you.
c9a8ba No.546747
>>546733
>cunt
>Reddit spacing
I am surprised.
>>546736
>Hey, if you want to swap for being mocked, ridiculed, and insulted for decisions made by politicians before you gained the vote
Pic related
5f9bda No.546749
>>546747
Meh, he can't be that bad.
55e41f No.546751
>thread starts as discussion about cute tonks
>derails into canadian/british shitfight
Please change, /k/.
5f9bda No.546754
>>546751
Fine then, the Tortoise is cute and anyone who disagrees has no taste.
6e68e4 No.546757
>>546754
So you like big slags?
57865c No.546758
>>546751
>the /k/ommandant has arrived
What you were witnessing was an accurate recreation of the English Civil War.
5f9bda No.546760
>>546757
Hey. There's no call for that. She's … Okay she's not so much curvy … but that armour, that gun. and that thing she does with those 3 MGs, dude it will blow your mind
>>546758
Who was the Roundhead and who was the Royalist?
fd50b8 No.546780
>>546751
I mean, at least it's not burgers falling for goblingoon b8 again.
6adcdf No.546782
>>546751
>last both world wars (first one only by default)
>couldn’t even unify all his people into one country, still can’t
Hey there bud, how about you go and fuck off while I figure out why the Queen keeps forgetting we exist.
>>546749
>Meh, he can't be that bad.
>made it illegal to criticize Muslims
>forced a carbon tax onto the country despite Canada being a carbon sink due to 85% uninhabited land
>brought in a fucktonne of Syrians (though You might have us beat on the brownification factor)
>bought them all laptops
>cries every month while apologizing for X thing Canada did Y decades ago and then writes affected group a check
>views his job as fucking PRIME MINISTER as ceremonial
>took Christmas trip to rich Muslim’s private island
>just like daddy, he’s trying to fuck over my province single handedly.
But it’s all going to be okay, I’m going from Multicultural liberal restrictive shithole Canada to Germany. :’(
5f9bda No.546784
>>546782
>I’m going from Multicultural liberal restrictive shithole Canada to Germany
Are you just really, worryingly, into self-harm?
702678 No.546785
>>546751
So then, which are cuter, leaf tanks or bong tanks?
ae6ff5 No.546793
>>546785
>buttons aren’t all in a straight line
5f9bda No.546795
>>546785
Considering that the leaves use Leopard 2s there are no (modern) Canadian Tanks. If we're going with older models then we've got a choice of the two pics. Neither of which does much for me.
>>546793
Hopefully you can learn from this Canada, because this is why nobody likes your shitposting.
c072dd No.546817
>>546224
>dat froggrill
Qt 3.14 2t
45bfe7 No.546889
64919e No.546896
Post more tonks and memes.
6e8b51 No.546900
>>546795
>Hopefully you can learn from this Canada, because this is why nobody likes your shitposting
It’s not shitposting, fag, the list looks like shit becuse the buttons are all over the place and not in a line. All you had to do was make the flags the same size.
6e8b51 No.546903
>>546795
>>546900
My bad, you didn’t make it, a burger did, but I still think it looks retarded since the circles are all fucked. Here’s cute butterfaced tank destroyers
c9a8ba No.546905
>all these nude tanks
Post more tanks with armoured skirts.
5f9bda No.546908
>>546900
>Wobbum related.
>>546903
>but I still think it looks retarded since the circles are all fucked
You seem to be the only one who's OCD enough to give a damn.
>Tonk destroyers
Any particular reason that the Krauts decided to go with open turrets there? Was it meant to do something important enough to be worth exposing the crew to enemy fire? Resource shortages? Or just some Teutonic hyper-autists who got a retarded idea and sperged out until it was approved?
c9a8ba No.546912
>>546908
>Any particular reason that the Krauts decided to go with open turrets there?
It’s so when a shell hit the ammo racks from the open back, the crew could escape through the open back to escape the fire.
:’)
dd72a7 No.546915
>>546908
Better sights and hearing.
5f9bda No.546917
Would the Universal carrier fitted with a 6lb gun pass as a (very light) tank destroyer? I suppose that maybe the gun's too small or the design's too nig-rigged to count there?
>>546912
>The turret is open because it means that when the enemy hits the shells that are exposed by our open turret we can run out of the open turret before it blows up.
Did they just hate their drivers then? Also the problem solved by the open turret sounds like it could have been made 'not a problem' by a closed turret.
>>546915
I suppose that if you were using them for an ambush that would make sense, in theory it shouldn't take enough fire to need much armour - then again theory rarely holds out for long in practice.
b451f5 No.546923
>>546917
>Did they just hate their drivers then?
The drivers were all filthy Süddeutsch and thus not as important to protect as the glorious Norddeutsch in the back.
>Also the problem solved by the open turret sounds like it could have been made 'not a problem' by a closed turret.
Hence the :’)
63b7d6 No.546927
>>546555
>But you couldn't get the 8.8cm Flak onto a STUG, could you Germany.
Don't worry, they fixed that with the VT.
e84446 No.546933
I really like this turret.
>>546908
>Any particular reason that the Krauts decided to go with open turrets there?
Most of these vehicles are the result of bolting an AT gun to a semi-random chassis. "Proper" German tank hunters were fully enclosed. Although their SPGs were open.
57865c No.546934
348fbf No.546936
Perfect for anti-infantry duty man.
d19db1 No.546939
fe85b5 No.546949
>>546939
Is that Bavarian-brand butthurt I detect? Please, cry more Bergcuck.
bumping with tankettes
64919e No.546985
>>546923
> filthy Süddeutsch
Learn 2 German. "süd deutsch" as an adjective to "they", or "süd Deutsche" as a descriptive title with the adjective "süd" for "southern".
Your improper use of German disgusts me, and dissappoints StuG-chan.
Post more pics of objectively cutest tank.
984b14 No.546993
>>546985
>Learn 2 German
I-I’m trying. My whole family is German but decided that I didn’t need to be able to speak to the rest of the family that didn’t come to leafland (read: all of them).
6ddc7f No.546997
>>546993
>Autist and a leaf
Wow you got the worst from both worlds.
64919e No.547009
>>546993
>My whole family is German
You are a disgrace. Go and stay go until you can at least read Faust.
>he keeps posting the wrong tank
For fucks sake, do I need to spell it out for you?
1:Goliath
2:Wiesel
3:StuG
4:StuH
5:Panzer III
Why are German tanks so cute?
d03c3b No.547015
>>547009
>Why are German tanks so cute?
They were tank-fucking degenerates.
5f9bda No.547016
>>547009
Such cute. Much adorable. How do the Krauts manage to build such beautiful vehicles :^)
805456 No.547017
>>546927
>Gee Bundeswehr, why does your country let you have TWO BARRELS?
c9a8ba No.547056
>>547009
>You are a disgrace.
Can’t really pick my place of birth, can I?
>Go and stay go until you can at least read Faust.
Going this summer/fall. Planing on staying until I die.
>he keeps posting the wrong tank
>3. StuG
>posted StuG III
??
>>546997
>autism
>bad
>>547016
German tanks make my Dicker Max
0a04aa No.547071
Aww,come on guys,the answer is obvious.
5f9bda No.547108
>>547071
Are tankettes really tanks?
0a04aa No.547113
>>547108
>tankettes
>TANK-ettes
Are midgets really human?
the answer might suprise you!
5f9bda No.547118
>>547113
>Are midgets really human?
Hmmm. Are you actually asking?
0a04aa No.547119
>>547118
Yeah,point taken,not the best argument I ever made.
Good thing I didn't go with gingers.
5225b1 No.547179
>>546362
type 89. that chubby japanese girl with no confidence that just wants to be loved
5f9bda No.547228
>>547119
Gingers get a bad rap, at least they're not midgets
>>547179
>Chubby japanese girl with no confidence that just wants to be loved
>Pic related
45bfe7 No.547234
>>547119
Nothing wrong with female gingers.
ee13ed No.547255
>>547234
Except that 85% of them are fucking insane cunts, and the extra qt factor from them being ginger isn’t worth the risk of having ginger kids.
45bfe7 No.547302
>>547255
85% of women are insane cunts, though I'll grant the mere thought of having a ginger son is a bit upsetting.
04bd5f No.547303
>>547302
And the other 15% are dumb cunts. Robotwaifus can’t come fast enough.
Dumping Flakpanzers to scare off planefu fags
5f9bda No.547362
>>547303
>planefu fags
YOUR FLAKPANZERS HAVE NO POWER HERE LEAF FAG
5f9bda No.547374
>>547373
[RAF laughter intensifies]
ae6ff5 No.547380
>>547374
And I would have gotten away with it if it weren’t for your meddling turn times!
5f9bda No.547384
>>547380
>And I would have gotten away with it if it weren’t for your meddling turn times!
Is that a reference I'm supposed to get? Or is it just more evidence that the Aussies are the finest shitposters the world can provide?
348fbf No.547385
>>547384
Nigger, I grew up in bumbfuck nowhere without cable or the bunny ears on the TV and I still know scooby doo quotes.
5f9bda No.547386
>>547385
I'm aware of the 'would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids' line - not the turn times reference. Doublenigger.
ae6ff5 No.547389
>>547386
It’s a reference to the face that when the CRAF tested captured German fighters (BF109s and FW190s) they found out that the spitfire could out-turn both in all tests. I don’t know what year and with what models though but I believe that throughtout the war English fighters generally could out-turn German fighters.
5f9bda No.547392
>>547389
Ah, I see, thanks for explaining your joke.
6adcdf No.547451
>>547444
>hmg mounted on treads with a computer to aim it
That whole thing could be 25% of the size and still work fine, and still be a waste of money.
57865c No.547476
>>547451
Give it to Lockheeb then they will find ways to make it even more a waste of money
8530a6 No.547477
>>547444
>>547451
It was originally designed as a bomb disposal robot. I got to play with it out in Kentucky last summer while some Army fag kept trying to convince me to join the army when I was trying to play with it. I think they just attached a gun instead of a robotic arm to the thing in that pic.
f09b60 No.547491
>>546121
Hetzer is bezter.
f2fd0f No.547502
>>547370
>>547374
>claim the seas and the world
>kill a bunch of germans
>lose the empire in the east to a bunch of poorly equipped japs
>still goes on about muh war crimes muh death march
We may have lost the war, but you badly lost the battle.
665b85 No.547527
>>547502
We couldn't even win a war against the fucking Irish.
They didn't have so much as basic infantry and we still lost. The UK's a joke, we've been a niggerized shithole for over 100 years.
5f9bda No.547528
>>547527
Shut up and go back to your bog, VPN using potato-nigger.
>>547502
If you look at the Empire in Asia at that point there were three areas that mattered. Australia, India, New Zealand. Now, the ANZACs looked after themselves pretty well (as they were basically independent in all but name by that stage) as well as sending several units to the campaign in North Africa. India decided to be a dick and have that bald cunt Ghandi try to sabotage British rule in the subcontinent. Considering that by this stage in the war Britain was convinced that they would see an overwhelming Nazi invasion very soon a few little islands in the South Pacific didn't really matter. What use where a few islands filled mostly with straw huts to a war economy? Even with that being the case, the Chindits and Gurkhas kind of fucked you guys up in Burma dude.
Besides, if you want to talk about who had it worst in the irrelevant East Asia theatre during the war, didn't you guys surrender after some faggot aircraft dropped just 2 bombs on your cities? I mean come on Japan - Britain and Germany were dropping thousands of bombs a day on each other, and you pussy out after just two little bombs. Japan confirmed for prancing lala homo man :^)
c993a8 No.547531
>>547502
>Failed to take anything relevant apart from 2 city states which were garrisoned with locally sourced troops
>nearly all gains were either for bits of shitty jungle or a few mud huts in said Jungle
>lose over 2.5m troops in total and over 1m Civilians
>w-we won the battle
Sure thing Tojo
>>547527
Last time I checked there was no actual war between Ireland and the UK (unless you count Taigs shooting off duty police officers as a war), fairly sure we would've Cromwell'd you if there was.
348fbf No.547542
>>547531
That loss of Hong Kong and Singapore is an outright blow to that whole Prestige thing not like it mattered after giving the entire empire away in later years.
57865c No.547545
>>547483
>Tree powered Tank
Al Gore would be pleased.
c993a8 No.547547
>>547542
It's not like we lost any white nations (apart from Jersey but tbh that couldn't be helped)
665b85 No.547550
>>547528
>potato nigger
I live just outside of central London though to be far, I was born in Belfast. I didn't live there long but I was born there.
Sorry if I sounded bitter, but I don't go a single day without seeing dozens of African or "Asian" immigrates shouting their ooga booga shit while some of them dress like it's the 16th century. They're everywhere here and they've so irreversibly fucked this city's culture it's a bit demoralizing. I know London's been like this for awhile so that makes it even worse.
>>547444
What an adorable little thing, how large are they?
>>547303
>Robotwaifus
Are your tankfus not enough?
33bbf8 No.547551
>>547550
I thought Belfast was worse than London?
5f9bda No.547552
>>547550
Fair enough mate, I can understand London having that effect on you. I worked there for a few years and never want to get within 50 miles of the place without a very good reason for the rest of my life. London is pretty much fucked at the moment, outside of a few neighbourhoods it's either high grade enrichment or late stage pozzing, just remember that we always find a way through. Granted the later that comes the more disruptive and damaging that's likely to be, but people are starting to wake up and the harder the powers that be try to slow things down the faster it moves. It shouldn't be too long before even the politicians who honestly believe the shit they're spouting start to feel the need to actually serve the people again.
688072 No.547561
>>547477
>It was originally designed as a bomb disposal robot
Still 4 times bigger than it needs to be
>>547550
>African or "Asian" immigrates shouting their ooga booga shit while some of them dress like it's the 16th century.
Nigs and shitskins are wearing slashed doublets jerkins and hose?
>Are your tankfus not enough?
Not until they add artificial wombs. imagine the physiological trauma a child would have once he became old enough to realize that his dad saying “your mom was a tank” wasn’t a bitter insult to some roastie woman.
520175 No.547567
>>547444
>that five armed swastika
d19db1 No.547569
>>546993
>self-hating german
Your loss will be cut, on rope day.
665b85 No.547570
>>547561
>imagine the physiological trauma a child would have once he became old enough to realize that his dad saying “your mom was a tank” wasn’t a bitter insult to some roastie woman.
What kind of father would you be to raise your child without his mother around?
I don't know what it says about my character that if a tank could be sentient I'd be more than willing to date one.
b451f5 No.547572
>>547569
>>self-hating german
Nigger, where did I infer I was self-hating, if I hated that I was German I wouldn’t be leaving leafland to go live in Germany. I’m an ethnonationalist, not some cuck that feels responsible for 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Jews that pretended to die.
>>547570
>What kind of father would you be to raise your child without his mother around?
I don't know what it says about my character that if a tank could be sentient I'd be more than willing to date one.
Well artificial wombs in a tank and AI in a tank are two different things, I was just talking about tank wombs not AI. I’m not a nigger, anon.
45bfe7 No.547621
>>547551
It's whiter but it's still a bit of a shithole.
6c3200 No.547662
>>547572
>I was just talking about tank wombs not AI.
But by that logic, you could stick a fetus gestation chamber in a broom closet in the Chrysler Building, and claim the child's mother was a skyscraper. It doesn't really work with a non-biologic and non-sophont.
ae6ff5 No.547704
>>547662
>by that logic
Nigger, there is not logic in artificial wombs for tanks. There is no need to ruin fun by over analyzing what is clearly a joke.
17dc3d No.547784
>>547392
I got it you autist
5f9bda No.547788
>>547784
But it's funnier to rub your nose in it.
64919e No.547820
CEASE SHITPOSTING!
Back to work! Post mehr niedliche Panzer!
5f9bda No.547825
>>547820
>CEASE SHITPOSTING!
No.
57865c No.547830
>>547820
>First image
Is that a trap?
64919e No.547834
6aff0a No.547868
>>547820
>women
>in the military
Fucking disgusting.
>>547834
>It's an Israeli.
Oh, nvm, more kike women should serve, Israel is too sexist!
084b15 No.547971
>>546908
>You seem to be the only one who's OCD enough to give a damn.
Objection, they bother me too. Also, >>546903 is fucking triggering me by calling them circles and not radio buttons.
084b15 No.547975
bbdc3e No.548194
>>546116
I'm with a crew of people building one of these. It's actually a pretty neat project
bbdc3e No.548196
>>548194
shameless plug
project38.net
Sage for self-promotion
b9ddc0 No.548221
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>548196
You are doing Gods work anon
bbdc3e No.548224
>>548221
That's awesome! I've never seen that. Totally stolen thanks.
b9ddc0 No.548226
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>548224
No problem I found few videos titled as LT 38
501214 No.548232
>>548196
>>548194
Check your email. I've been asking around and I might have some leads on someone capable of manufacturing the double planetary geartrain.
bbdc3e No.548234
>>548232
The t.ankmann email or Buddy_255? I will check both when I get home tonight.
As for planetary gearset, we discovered recently that the OT-64 SKOT car (1963, 4,000 built) used the identical transmission, so we'll probably just pull one from there, but we'll be happy to have information on who might be able to make a new one, that's spectacular!
We're starting to market the project properly and the amount of information from viewers like you coming back is astounding. It's surreal.
c459fc No.548241
I remember seeing a tank who's name I can't remember, instead of the armor on the front forming a straight line between the treads like most tanks, it had two armored plates angled kind of like a a cattle catcher at the front. Anybody know what it is?
f85905 No.548283
>>546795
Not to 'Murika shitpost, but does Canada even really need great tanks? Let's be honest here, no matter how pissy US and Canada get at each other, there is no universe that exists that the US would allow another power to invade Canada. The US would fuck them so hard, their grandchildren would have loose buttholes.
64919e No.548284
>>548283
The greatest tsundere love story ever told.
c459fc No.548289
>>548243
I don't think so, I think it was an interwar design or close to the time period; lots of rivets. I also think the shape of the front armor had a name, but I can't remember what that was either.
e70d77 No.548298
>>548283
As a strelok once said, Canada is probably the only country we actually like.
They're probably just worried we'll be team-killing fucktards.
607052 No.548299
>>548283
Only we get to pick on canada
f2fd0f No.548304
>>548289
Some late WW1/Inter-War French tanks fit your description.
aee14a No.548305
>>548283
Canada is like the introverted, geeky brother that we as the bigger jock brother can't help but give overly hard noogies and wedgies to, but then we find out one of the other football players is stealing his lunch money and we body check that fucker so hard into a locker it leaves a dent and give him half our sandwich at the cafeteria because, "You're so damn scrawny you need it."
5f9bda No.548306
>>548283
>Relying in America
>for anything
>ever
Maybe an invasion would be good for Canada. It would quickly clean out their cities cucks are not know for their abilities innawoods and the sort of psychopaths who survived and fought back from the woods would be just the kind of nutter I'd like to see put in charge of their country. All you guys would need to do was hold the border and stop the cuckfugees from crossing into the US.
348fbf No.548312
>>548283
Leafland doesn't even really have an army anymore, I mean nasty girls are better off than them. Hell the urbanites who like to shit on anything that is right of Marx expect the US army to hop the border in the event of invasion in which my reply is how about you sort things out for yourselfs you fucking freeloaders, pay your NATO debts you fucking communist shits.
>>548306
Rural folk would probably balkanize the place, sure city folk are enemy number one, but they fucking hate one another. You'll never hear anything good of the east in the west and vice versa.
5f9bda No.548314
>>548312
Maybe a little Balkanisation would be a good thing, as long as the new states can avoid warring/genociding each other that is. A voluntary Alliance/Confederation of smaller states (that operate on the level that their citizens can influence and steer without needing to dedicate their lives to politics) seems to be a more resilient and flexible political structure than what we see as normal at the moment. If nothing else forcing politicians to live and work at the level where they are unavoidably on first name terms with the overwhelming majority of the people they, at least notionally, serve can't be too bad a result it might even help make the fuckers accountable
665b85 No.548316
5f9bda No.548323
>>548316
>TFW gf isn't a tank
57865c No.548327
>>548283
I think Canada would shitpost anyone to death or at least any invading force would reach Quebec, see the locals and realize no amount of devastation they could bring could amount to that
45bfe7 No.548346
>>548298
>They're probably just worried we'll be team-killing fucktards.
Out of interest how the fuck did the USA manage to develop such amazing friendly-fire skills? It seems to be more than just a meme.
5f9bda No.548358
>>548346
>how the fuck did the USA manage to develop such amazing friendly-fire skills
Lower quality training, and in some cases ignoring their men saying 'but sir, those are friendlies!'.
c24ab2 No.548365
>>548299
>comparing Trudeau to Canadian Goose
They might both be assholes but at least the goose fucks its enemies up with no worries of them consequently winning.
084b15 No.548423
>>548365
>Canadian Goose
These fuckers are all over Michigan too.
>Retards give them free food
>now they infest the streets where they got free shit, squawking and attacking passerby and being a general nuisance
>thanks to all the free food their population is too numerous to manage effectively.
They're basically refugee-birds. Only fitting that they came over from Cucknada.
ee13ed No.548427
>>548423
>hundreds of niggers coming into Canada everyday from the US
>bitches about geese that naturally live in the US but have Canada in their name
084b15 No.548433
>>548427
>canuck gets needlessly triggered over a shitpost about geese
There is irony in this.
c24ab2 No.548459
>>548427
Aren't niggers just flightless Canadian geese for all practical purposes?
5f9bda No.548465
>>548459
No. Goose tastes good if you cook it properly. :^)
074859 No.548471
>>548459
At least geese are nice to look at and posses the ability to work together
>>548433
>talking shit about the Canadian goose
If we let you do that what’s next? The beaver? The loon? Where does it end?
5f9bda No.548474
>>548471
>Where does it end?
Ice hockey is a shit sport.
04bd5f No.548477
89b3b2 No.548498
>>548471
If you don't want us to talk shit about your national bird you shouldn't have a species of aggressively territorial flying vermin as your national bird.
ae6ff5 No.548530
>>548498
>If you don't want us to talk shit about your national bird you shouldn't have a species of aggressively territorial flying vermin as your national bird.
Canada doesn’t have a national bird though.
5f9bda No.548588
>>548477
I'm a Rugby man myself imagine American Football but designed for guys who's balls have actually dropped, but even so Cricket is a far better sport than ice hockey, particularly when play gets into the fourth day.
45bfe7 No.548603
>>548588
Cricket is boring as shit, there's a reason only the fucking English play it.
5f9bda No.548604
>>548603
Jock, Taig, or Sheepfucker? Whichever you are, opinion discarded due to lack of civilisation and taste.
ae6ff5 No.548634
>>548588
Hockey is much better than cricket, as the other UKian said (we really need to get you Inselaffe your own flags instead of the Union Jack) there’s a reason only the Brits and your colonies play it aside from us because ice puck is much better. Hell even Indian net stick is better than cricket.
57865c No.548636
>>548603
Pakis and Pajeets play it, so guess it is a British sport.
45bfe7 No.548700
>>548604
>Scots
>Lack of taste
Time to post the food of my people.
56ec5f No.548703
The last 26 posts didn't even contain any tonks.
What the fuck is this shit?
Type 74 kawai!
49635b No.548718
>>548700
>macaroni pie
I'd eat that
5f9bda No.548723
>>548700
Might have been a bit harsh there, you Scots are alright until you let endless reruns of Braveheart overwhelm your ability to think that is. Everyone should go drinking with Scots every now and then, but - the food. Do you all just hate your arteries or something?
3188c6 No.548725
>>548700
what are these? esp 3rd and 4th image
084b15 No.548728
>>548725
>3rd image
Those are fucking chicken wings and french fries, how do you not recognize a staple of the burgerstan diet?
3188c6 No.548729
>>548728
the red stuff on the left looks too big to be chicken wings? and the brown stuff in the back is unrecognizable to me.
49635b No.548730
>>548728
>3rd image
>those are fucking chicken wings and french fries
Err… That's doner meat, chips, chicken pakora and some sort of salad/onion garnish
ee13ed No.548734
>>548700
Post sheep intestines
49635b No.548735
>>548734
It's lungs, liver, heart and stomach. No intestines
ee13ed No.548736
>>548703
Sorry Kraut-sama
>>548735
My bad. Post sheep heart, lungs, liver and stomach.
084b15 No.548739
>>548730
I apologize, bong-friend. The stuff on the left looked like shapeless hunks of meat slathered in sauce, which is what we clapistani call "chicken."
572e88 No.548742
>>548737
That don’t look like meat to me.
49635b No.548743
45bfe7 No.548764
>>548723
>Everyone should go drinking with Scots every now and then, but - the food. Do you all just hate your arteries or something?
The food is linked to the drink anon: either you eat it first to line your stomach or you eat it after when it makes you hungry.
>>548725
Munchie (munchy?, I've honestly never bothered to check the 'correct' spelling) box.
>>548742
Haggis is mostly offal, it's significantly nicer than it look though good on a pizza too.
8530a6 No.548786
>>548764
Haggis is the shit. I fucking love it.
>tfw have to make it illegally because freedoms
4a6b2b No.548811
>>546215
Are tank traps just a meme? Who made this piece of shit? Its like something a child would draw if you asked them to sketch a advance deterrent. Who literally sat down and thought up this useless piece of metal, then called it a tank stopper, what the fuck. 'Well, if we don't design it for anything specific, it will be an jack of all trades right' - Hans Frankbusrt, wrong, its just SHIT at EVERYTHING. ITS FUCKING WORTHLESS AT EVERY THING. I would go into MS paint, draw a blob, find some scrap metal, and make an obstacle objectively better than the average Tank Trap, infact, thats how fucking useless this forward movement stopping apparatus is. Like, is it even supposed to be a rock? Is it made for combat? Is there some alternative use that I just can't see? Because the way it looks to me, this is an absolute piece of shit that's been dropped on battlefield.
4a6b2b No.548812
>>546677
Anglish is just removing Latin words and replacing them with either old words, words derived from old English, compound words or new words with germanic roots.
There's a board even >>>/anglish/
4a6b2b No.548815
>>547704
>not wanting you'r tankfu to m'other you'r children
ae6ff5 No.548833
e39bf8 No.548837
>>548603
>only the british play it
and you still manage to suck; refer to this year's ashes series. Next year at least try to pretend you're playing the game.
4-0
e39bf8 No.548839
>>548736
Talking of cute tanks, will we ever know the facts behind the Kugelpanzer?
348fbf No.548843
>>548839
Unless you find the thousands of documents the soviets walked off with from E.Germany, unlikely.
ae6ff5 No.548856
>>548839
What was up with it being in Manchuria? Did the krauts realize it was too small so they shipped it off to you Nips?
45bfe7 No.548873
>>548837
English, not British.
>>548786
Haggis is illegal in America?
ae6ff5 No.548874
>>548873
>English, not British
What’s the difference? Or does Britain refer to GB only?
ae6ff5 No.548876
>>548874
Nvm, just looked it up
348fbf No.548886
>>548873
Importation of some of the ingredients is banned because you fucks can't figure out how to not mad cow disease everything, therefore importing haggis is no-go.
49635b No.548910
>>548886
Haggis doesn't contain any beef and the mad cow stuff was years ago. It's to do with the lungs
>>548873
Yeah, food containing lungs is illegal in 56%land
It's also illegal to sell game strangely
5f9bda No.548923
>>548910
>Yeah, food containing lungs is illegal in 56%land
>It's also illegal to sell game strangely
It's because they're so free :^)
56ec5f No.548924
STOP TALKING ABOUT FOOD LIKE FAT WOMEN
TANKS, TANKS, TANKS!
5f9bda No.548925
>>548924
What sort of rations were issued to Stug crews? Did they cook them on the engine block?
f2fd0f No.548949
>>548924
>thesis: tanks
>antithesis: food
>synthesis: panzer kuchen
hegelian dialectics has never been tastier!
21a8af No.548956
>>548910
No, haggis is not illegal in America-land. We can buy it here in cans if we want to. Every year in my town there is a Scottish festival with a haggis eating contest.
No, selling game meat is not illegal. There is a distributor in my town you can go to for pretty much anything. There used to be two but the guy running the smaller one retired. The last time I was in there he had a lot of lion steaks. Also fantastic black bear jerky.
45bfe7 No.548968
>>548876
>>548874
It's particularly important in the world of sports because usually the UK competes as four separate teams.
>>548886
>Cow
>In haggis
?
49635b No.548971
>>548956
>we can buy it here in cans if we want to.
That's fake haggis made from lamb instead of actual sheep's offal, actual haggis is illegal due to the USDA
>no, selling game meat is not illegal
Someone told me it was, apparently it's only illegal on the state-level
56ec5f No.548973
TAAAAAAAAAAAAANKS!!
The TKS was poland's "main battle tank" of WWII. It weighted in at 2.5 tons and was crewed by one commander and one driver. Much like the later Wiesel the commander was also the gunner, operating a 7.92mm Hotchkiss.
Only very few versions of them were armed with a single 20mm cannon, much like the Wiesel I. These were the only effective tanks the Poles had in WWII against German armour. One TKS even managed to take out three German Pz.Kmfw.35(t). The other TKS were mostly used as infantry support vehicles and for reconnaissance purposes.
56ec5f No.548975
EVEN MORE TAAAAAAANKS!
The Type 94 gas scattering and disinfectant vehicle were chemical warfare vehicles developed by thee Japanese before WWII.
Basically these vehicles were meant to drive close and spray the enemy with chemical agents. If an enemy decided to use chemical agents against the Japanese troops, another vehicle pulling a disinfectant dispenser would shower the Jap troopers with…well…disinfectant and attempt to save some lives. They would also be used to drive before Jap infantry to clear stretches of land for an attack.
Despite their cute appearance, they have never been used in combat.
56ec5f No.548980
TANKS EVERYWHERE, AND YOU CHOSE TO TALK ABOUT FOOD LIKE FAT, MARRIED WOMEN! AAAAAGH!!!
The Blinde 37L was a French armored artillery tractor. It saw little use by the French, but the Germans used them extensively, by mounting a 75mm PAK and further armor on them, essentially creating the Marder I, also known as the Sonderkraftfahrzeug (SdKfz) 135.
The SdKfZ 135/1 was a similar version, but instead of mounting a 75mm AT gun, they use a 155mm howitzer; one of the first self propelled armoured artillery guns (SPAAG).
c9a8ba No.548985
>>548980
>>548975
>>548975
>>548924
>>548703
Never change Germany :^)
>>548968
>It's particularly important in the world of sports because usually the UK competes as four separate teams.
You already gave up the Empire, why not just let the Celts go? Most of them hate the English anyways. or would they go the way of Ireland, economically?
56ec5f No.548986
The soviet NI-tank was based on an agricultural tractor, but that's not the full story.
The battle of Odessa (or rather the first siege of Odessa) lasted from 8th of August to 6 of October 1941. During the first few weeks and months of the war, most factories and material was evacuated further eastwards, and the few factories that remained were told to service damaged tanks with anything they had at hand. When Odessa came under siege, and the workers in the factories were no longer supplied with the necessary materials to service tanks, they decided to build their own ones, based on agricultural tractors.
All of these beasts are now known as NI tanks, and basically consist of a sandwich type armour cage around a normal tractor, with a turret on top.
They used whatever weapons they had as armament, ranging from 20mm auto-cannons to machine guns. Every one of these vehicles is unique. Not much is known about their battle effectiveness though (due to Soviet historical bullshittery and destruction of documents they didn't like.)
Never the less, the fact that the guys in a tractor factory managed to build a somewhat working tank is impressive.
b9ddc0 No.548991
Isu 152 ´zveroboj´ (beast slayer) destroying german zoo by sheer power of 50 kg HE shells
548c90 No.548994
>>548980
>one of the first self propelled armoured artillery guns (SPAAG).
Everyone seems to forget that the bongs already built a self-propelled gun (SPG, SPAAG usually means self-propelled anti-air gun) during the first world war. It was just useless in that conflict, therefore they demoted it into an ammo carrier for guns in static positions.
56ec5f No.548996
>>548987
For all the uninitiated: What you can see here is a T-60 flying tank, also known as the Antonov A-40. In WWII the Soviets experimented with methods to make their tank units more maneuverable. Usually these vehicles would be dropped from bombers at low altitude and roll to a stop, or simply parachuted down.
Another approach was building a glider frame around a normal tank, and pulling it over the target area. The wire was then cut and the tank commander would pilot the tank down.
There was only one test flight of this kind though. The Soviets had to strip out all ammo, weapons and most fuel (which would all be airdropped nearby for the crew to pickup according to doctrine (see modern day US airborne troops for why that would have been a terrible idea)).
During said test-flight the tank-glider became uncontrollable during takeoff, and the tank had to be separated preemptively. The pilot/commander however managed to land the vehicle.
The project were canceled shortly after, but the Soviet Union continued to develop airborne armored vehicles long after WWII.
49635b No.548999
>>548985
>welsh
>hating the English
56ec5f No.549004
>>548985
>>548999
FAT FEMALES! REEEEEEEEEE!!!
The ratel is the IFV of South Africa.
With six wheels and a 20mm auto-cannon it came to fame as the first wheeled IFV.
The large glass windows offer the driver great visibility, while giving the enemy a gentlemanly "SHOOT ME HERE" hint.
5f9bda No.549007
>>548985
> why not just let the Celts go?
Why? If you look at the actual numbers, Worst Ireland aside, there's never been more than a very vocal minority in the various non-English nations of the UK calling for independence, and using that call as a political bargaining chip to acquire more gibs from the English taxpayer.
>or would they go the way of Ireland, economically?
See the point about Gibs. Their economies wouldn't be able to stand up on their own. Scotland likes to pretend that North Sea Oil would turn them into some kind of Celtic Sweden, but they always seem to forget two things:
<1) The oil fields are dying out, they're losing both jobs, revenue, and barrels per day and have been for a while now (best estimates say that about 76% of the total reserve has been extracted already).
<2) It was agreed back in the '70s that these were British oil fields rather than Scottish, the Scots signed off on this.
I'd be a hypocrite if I said they shouldn't be allowed to leave, after they accept the economic reality of the situation, but I'd hope they would be sensible enough to stay. After all, nobody wants to see members of their family lose everything and end up on the street corner.
acfe3f No.549009
>>549004
>>549005
Well, given they're fighting Africans, I don't think they have to worry about enemy soldiers being accurate enough to aim for the windows.
56ec5f No.549014
The Amphibious Engineer Reconnaissance vehicle (amphibisches Pionier Erkundungsfahrzeug (APE)) is a vehicle based around the TPz 2 (Transport Panzer (Transport Tank)), which in itself was a 4x4 version of the TPz 1 Fuchs, a vehicle that is to this day in service with many armed forces of Europe and is now only slowly being replaced by the Boxer. Neither the TPz 2 or the APE were ever adapted into service. Only one prototype of the APE remains.
The APE was meant to be, as the name suggests, an armored, amphibious sapper/engineer recon vehicle, meant to scout out areas for potential bridges, and ensure that there is no enemy presence waiting on the other side of the river, as well as give an advance warning in case any Ivans come along. It is armed with a 20mm cannon (same one on the Marder IFV, not the tank destroyer), and can do 100km/h on land and 18km/h on water (roughly 10 knots).
738892 No.549019
I think Czech tanks are pretty cute, to be honest.
Also bump and pics related
6ddc7f No.549021
>>549009
Fun fact. Africans think 20 gauge shotguns are better than 12 gauge cause the number is bigger.
2b4b88 No.549025
>>549021
Niggers must think a 410 is fucking huge.
5f9bda No.549027
>>549025
>Johannesburg made .410 shotgun
c9a8ba No.549031
>>549007
>Why? If you look at the actual numbers, Worst Ireland aside, there's never been more than a very vocal minority in the various non-English nations of the UK calling for independence, and using that call as a political bargaining chip to acquire more gibs from the English taxpayer.
So the celts are Quebec?
>See the point about Gibs. Their economies wouldn't be able to stand up on their own.
So the celts are Quebec?
>>549027
No way that really works. It’s just for show right? Why the fuck is the trigger so big? Couldn’t they have made a huge retard gun, but use a trigger a human could actually use? or is it for another race?
45bfe7 No.549038
>>548985
>You already gave up the Empire, why not just let the Celts go? Most of them hate the English anyways. or would they go the way of Ireland, economically?
>Implying I'm not a Scotfag
Also we don't really hate the English that's mostly banter, what we do hate is (((London))). In fact everyone in the UK, politically speaking, hates London other than the fucks who live there.
1f211d No.549040
>>549031
It's a punt gun and yes it really works. Not for show or novelty either, they were used for hunting large numbers of waterfowl.
242833 No.549043
>>549038
I was under the impression that the celts hates the English because they’re foreign to the British Isles (Anglo-’’’saxons’’’) and dominated. I am obviously not an expert and wrong though.
>>549040
So
1. Why is he trigger retardedly long? or is that for leverage because it’s a heavy trigger pull because it’s a double action?
2. Is the barrel too long that it impedes the shot or is it actually loaded with a relative amount of power? If so, is this supposed to be mounted on a cart or something?
I’ve seen the picture before but I always figured it was a bullshit gun
I’ve seen 7 foot long guns in German museums meant for castle defence but nothing that fucked.
b954b0 No.549050
>>548956
>No, selling game meat is not illegal.
Maybe in your state, but everyone I've ever hunted in will fuck you over if you even think about selling a leg off bambi.
>>548980
I never thought about how tiny those things were.
>>549043
Not sure about the trigger, but yes punt guns were made to be mounted on small barges and fowling boats for market hunting (I.E. shooting a few thousand birds a day for resale).
ae6ff5 No.549051
>>549050
>Not sure about the trigger, but yes punt guns were made to be mounted on small barges and fowling boats for market hunting (I.E. shooting a few thousand birds a day for resale).
Thanks Ami *starts clapping*
>but everyone I've ever hunted in
What are the laws for hunting inside someone in your state? :^)
Krauts are asleep, post non-tanks
348fbf No.549052
>>549043
Punt guns were blackpowder, and blackpowder shotguns depend on barrel length for velocity.
>>549050
Commercial hunting was made illegal due to the fact that it wholeheartedly depleted waterfowl stocks to near extinction. Besides that it is illegal to sell uninspected meat.
c9992c No.549054
>>549052
>Punt guns were blackpowder, and blackpowder shotguns depend on barrel length for velocity.
Yes but the powder doesn’t burn forever, there’s a point where the barrel isn’t helping anymore because the accelerant (burning powder) is gone.
5f9bda No.549063
>>549031
>So the celts are Quebec?
I've not been to Quebec or spoken to a Quebecker, but the angry and vocal minority who actually believe what they're saying do seem to fit the meme of Quebec.
>It’s just for show right?
Nope, it's a punt gun, the bastard lovechild of a shotgun and a cannon. They were used to, well 'hunt' is the wrong word so we'll say 'harvest', large chunks of flocks of ducks/geese. That pic is a rather rare example though, most of the English punt-guns were built by working class men as a way to supplement their income and were made out of drainpipes etc.
>>549038
>Also we don't really hate the English that's mostly banter, what we do hate is (((London)))
I think even most Londoners hate London.
>>549043
>1. Why is he trigger retardedly long?
The trigger wasn't built for a finger, you'd fire it by pulling a lanyard tied to the trigger.
>is this supposed to be mounted on a cart or something?
Not so much a cart as a very small boat. Think of a very wide, flat, low walled canoe, built by someone with basic hand tools in their garage and you'll get a good idea of what the punt would have looked like.
665b85 No.549148
>>548985
Scotland's been apart of the UK for a long fucking time, giving them up would be more extreme than giving Ireland up. It's not just about economy or politics, a lot of it is also cultural. It would be the first time in many hundreds of Britain wasn't fully united.
>>549007
>there's never been more than a very vocal minority in the various non-English nations of the UK calling for independence
This I'd have to say is untrue. There are a lot of Scots who genuinely want independence, it's Norn Iron who want the gibs.
>>548999
The Welsh don't give a fuck one way or the other.
>>549038
I'm from London and I fucking hate London.
33bbf8 No.549149
>>549148
Why did you guys keep Northern Ireland? They do nothing but demand more money and yell at the Irish over a 100-year-old feud.
e63c4e No.549153
>>549149
327 year old feud. It started during the home-rule movement in Ireland which was a less radical group who wanted to stay in the UK but being like Scotland today. The Ulster-Scots, Protestant scots who moved to Ulster under Lizzy I to make plantations, didn't want to have Irish affairs run by Catholics so started up a militia. This militia stated it would rise up against any Irish government, while being a minority of the country they held much more wealth and thus equipment. WW1 starts up and most of the Irish Volunteers (cath) decide to join the British army to save Belgium and to come back as a well trained army which can defend itself. The Unionists (prots) decide to do the same thing for King and Country as they view themselves as no less British than someone from Oxford.
During WW1 the more radical Republican movement (At this time run by the Irish Republican Brotherhood) which voted against joining up with the British army have set up an uprising. 1916 happens where the Socialist ICA, Irish volunteers, and the IRB rise up and take over many significant parts of Dublin (Almost taking the HQ of the British army in Dublin). British army take back Dublin and the radical leaders of the rising, except for Éamon de Valera who was an American, are put to death which makes the Irish population more sympathetic to the radicals' cause. WW1 is over and the UK isn't giving Ireland independence and no one will help them so they do the next best thing. After securing loans to buy weapons for the newly formed IRA they start a guerilla war in which they famous for using "Flying Columns" which were groups of about 25- 75 men which worked as fast moving Commando units. They would use these units to ambush British soldiers, however during the war both sides committed some pretty bad shit. The Irish would shoot off duty soldiers, assassinate Judges, and burn down police stations with the policemen inside to get guns. The British would burn down homes, abuse innocent people, and at one point driving an armoured car into a hurley match and shooting on the audience. During all this the Unionist north is all doing all it can to help the British army and sign off on always being part of the UK.
1922 comes along and the British want to leave. The Irish haven't really been making much ground and have been losing a lot of men. Thus the Irish Free State becomes a thing, giving Ireland the same status as Canada in which they had their own government but the King was still the head of state. This peace treaty included the 6 counties of Ulster becoming Northern Ireland which was still UK land. Signing this treaty meant the start of the Irish civil war. Post this it was a major industrial hub and made much more money than it cost to keep. After 1997 it has just been not caring what the fuck happens until they vote to go back to Ireland.
665b85 No.549154
>>549149
Northern Ireland had Belfast, which was incredibly important for manufacture.
Then all the manufacture went to China and now we're left with these parasites who actually think we kept them for any other reason than industry, I'd love to shove them back but I doubt Ireland would take them with how their economy is doing and the Northerners would probably refuse to leave the union.
56ec5f No.549158
>>549025
>>549021
>>549027
>>549031
>>549038
>>549043
>>549051
>>549052
>>549054
>>549063
>>549148
>>549149
>>549153
>>549154
At least it's not food anymore.
Politics is for old fat men though.
TAAAAAAAAAAANKS!
The MkF3 is the predecessor to the GTC 155mm SPAG of the French Army. It's basically an AMX-13 tank, but with a bigger gun strapped to it. 8 crew members are required for operation, but it only has space for two of them. The rest would either hold on to the chassis, walk, or drive in support vehicles.
It is used by many armied around the world even today, mostly in the third world, despite (or maybe because) of it's age.
Pictured: Soldiers of the Kuwait Army posing in front of an MkF3 in 1973.
56ec5f No.549161
The VCTP (Vehiculo de Combate Transporte de Personal) is an Argentinian IFV based on the German Marder IFV (not the WWII tank destroyer). It uses the same hull and armament as the original Marder vehicle. The only major change was the engine.
665b85 No.549175
>>549172
>second image
It looks like a Jeep fucked an M47 and this was the illegitimate child that came out nine months later.
56ec5f No.549176
>>549172
For the uninitiated:
The first pic shows a Kanonenjagdpanzer (canon hunter tank (lit)/ canon dank destroyer). It was fielded next to the Raketenjagdpanzer (Missile hunter tank (lit)/ missile tank destroyer), because canon shells were cheaper to produce and easier to stock up on. It uses a 90mm canon and is directly based on the Jagdpanzer IV (the Nazi-German one), which makes it a direct ancestor of papa StuG.
With the rise of the T64 and T72 it became apparent that the 90mm canon was too weak, much like the M60's and the Leo1's. The Kanonenjagdpanzers were removed from service. Some of which were later modified to the Jaguar 2, another missile based tank destroyer. The rest had their canons removed and were turned into armoured or artillery observation vehicles.
The second picturee shows a Leo1 Fahrschullehrpanzer (Leo1 Driving school tank). It has a fake turret and armament, and is meant to allow tank crews to learn how to drive the vehicle, without having to deal with the constrains of a limited field of vision at first. This concept proved to be effective, since it meant that a rookie could learn the controlls much faster. Since every crew member of German tank crews are required to know how to perform every roll of a tank's crew (so the gunner can drive the tank if the driver dies or gets wounded etc.), every tanker must know how to drive the tank, which is why Fahrschulpanzer are to this day a very important part of the Bundeswehr.
Pic related. A Leo2 Fahrschulpanzer.
2b4b26 No.549179
>>549148
>There are a lot of Scots who genuinely want independence
Potentially, but that's a very recent development - I'm going by the most reliable figures available, which are the votes in the last independence referendum you had.
>it's Norn Iron who want the gibs.
Don't think I haven't seen the Treasury figures anon.
>>549158
God bless you Krautanon, it's absolutely adorable how rectally devastated you get from off-topic posting. I wonder though, would it be possible to build a 12-bore anti-tank shell to deal with modern MBTs? Hard mode, without wrecking your shoulder.
33bbf8 No.549184
Would you a tank?
If so, which one?
56ec5f No.549186
>>549179
I am not "rectally devastated". I am just pissed that you faggots keep ruining a perfectly fine thread with kc-2018-/int/ tier countryball shitposting. Why on earth do we even have flags? This place is not primarily about politics. You can discuss weapons without flags and you won't end up with nearly as many thread derailments. /rant
To get back on topic: TANKS!
The MPz 58 (mittlerer Panzer 1958 / medium tank 1958) was a Swiss tank. Up until the introduction of the MPz 58 Switzerland was using a couple hundred Hetzer tank destroyers as their main armored vehicles. It uses a 90mm canon, and had a small secondary engine, which could be used to start the main engine, or move the tank in case of emergency. The entire tank was steered using a steering wheel.
da5000 No.549196
>>548700
>greasy dumpster food
>good taste in food
Pick one.
fd4e5c No.549199
>>548196
I remember you. Where's my E-50, anon??? :^)
665b85 No.549200
>>548904
Spoiler that you pervert
56ec5f No.549202
>>549196
>>549200
>>549195
And we are back to fat women tier.
/k/ was never good.
665b85 No.549204
>>549202
What? I'm talking about that mini-tank he posted.
56ec5f No.549205
>>549204
Only women get triggered by anal.
665b85 No.549206
>>549205
That tank is clearly underage, that whore should go to prison for preforming coitus with a boy.
2b4b26 No.549211
>>549186
You didn't answer the question. 12 bore AT rounds - how fucked is my shoulder going to be?
207909 No.549229
Was Hitler really a megalomaniac, or did he just sign any and all pieces of paper that promised cool tonks?
8b28d1 No.549233
>>549229
What do you think
665b85 No.549236
>>549229
Hitler was just like us.
He loved his tankfus.
2b4b26 No.549237
>>549229
>Hitler didn't give a shit about the economy, or degeneracy, not even Germany or the Jews.
>Hitler was just an autistic proto-/k/ommando who signed every 'cool military proposal' and 'super sweet strategery' his generals gave him.
>Goebbels wrote his speeches and hitler didn't give a shit about what he was saying because the tanks were what got his dick hard.
>He spent his evenings trying to decide if he should cuddle the STUG or the ME-262
>MFW
It would certainly explain some of the wackier wunderwaffen that were proposed.
084b15 No.549243
>>548975
Why wasn't it ever used?
**I know very little about tonks but I prefer discussing them to fucking food.
>>548986
>The soviet NI-tank was based on an agricultural tractor,
Isn't that the case for most Soviet tanks? Not that I blame them for that, as it seemed to work out pretty well for them.
>>548996
>The project were canceled shortly after, but the Soviet Union continued to develop airborne armored vehicles long after WWII.
Was that further development entirely conventional (i.e. the predecessor of modern cargo drop planes/parachutes), or did the Soviets try other wacky things like this?
>>549009
>>549021
Semi-related, when Rhodesian soldiers captured enemy soldiers during the bush war, the rear sight on all of their AKs was set to 400m or whatever the maximum reading was. When asked why, the prisoners said they thought the bigger number meant the bullets would fly faster and farther.
>>549186
Most moar swiss tanks, please If there are any.
>>549229
Pretty much, but no limited to tanks. Hitler liked hardware that looked cool but he didn't really know how most of it worked or how it applied in warfare. Kept referring to the Me-262 as a "heavy bomber" if I recall correctly.
665b85 No.549247
>>549243
>Hitler liked hardware that looked cool but he didn't really know how most of it worked or how it applied in warfare.
The more I hear about Hitler the more this sounds true.
I remember hearing the reason that H&K's MPs were called that is because Hitler ordered them to make machine pistols, or maschinenpistole in German. H&K, obviously knowing this was a stupid idea, used the funding they were given to experiment with rifles instead, calling their new weapons things such as "MP-43" so if Hitler ever looked over the documents he'd assume there were making machine pistols.
665b85 No.549248
>>549247
Wait, I just remembered H&K didn't even exist until '48
I guess that part is untrue.
2b4b26 No.549250
>>549248
Whichever group of Krauts it was then.
df63f2 No.549269
>>549250
I remember the inverse; Hitler discovering the deception in naming a rifle (what would become the StG-44) with a MP code to make it look like they were working on submachine guns rather than new rifles, and continually halted the program (out of reluctance of having a cool weapon but being unable to totally replace the fleet of infantry weapons already in service), until he eventually saw a demonstration of it, and was reportedly so impressed by its performance, that he gave it the 'Sturmgewehr' name.
As for the people responsible, it was probably Walther and Haenel engineers since they were behind the StG-44 prototypes. H&K was founded by former Mauser engineers and as far as I know, had nothing to do with the StG.
084b15 No.549274
>>549269
There's a lot of urban legend surrounding the StG-44 and it being adopted, so take my words with a grain of salt, but as I understand it went something like this: Hitler did eventually find out that the MP-44 wasn't actually a machine-pistol, and initially refused to sign off on it. The guy in charge of the project was persistent, and basically kept proposing it and the many advantages until Hitler finally gave in. As for whether Hitler named the gun the Sturmgewehr, it's not known for sure whether he did or didn't but people agree that he more likely scenario was that Hitler didn't come up with the name personally but did sign off on it.
b9ddc0 No.549275
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>549243
>id the Soviets try other wacky things ?
Orbital drop pods when?
56ec5f No.549276
>>549243
>Why wasn't it ever used?
After what happened with Germany in WWI no one really wanted to be the first one to use chemical weapons on a grand scale in WWII.
>Isn't that the case for most Soviet tanks? Not that I blame them for that, as it seemed to work out pretty well for them.
Not really. While some components for some of the soviet tanks may have been the same as for their agricultural tractors, the actual underlying vehicles were not nearly the same. There simply wouldn't have been any room for the turret, crew and ammo.
>Was that further development entirely conventional (i.e. the predecessor of modern cargo drop planes/parachutes), or did the Soviets try other wacky things like this?
The former, although the soviets came up with a rocket assisted parachute landing method for their IFVs. Quite neat. You should look it up. Pretty fucking /k/.
>moar swiss tanks
As you wish.
The Panzerkanone 68 (tank canon 68) was a prototype SPAG based on the chassis of the Panzer 61 and Panzer 68. These two are direct successors of the MPz 58.
The Panzerkanone used a 155mm canon with an autoloader, but was never adopted into service because of budget constrains. Think about that. An autoloader in 1966.
>>549229
>>549233
>>549236
>>549237
What did you expect? He failed at artschool, was homeless for a long time and served in WWI as a grunt. Do you really think he knew anything about engineering?
>>549247
>>549248
>>549250
>>549269
There is a nice bit about the naming of the MP-43 in one of the forgotten weapons on the StG44.
Link because you can't embed and post images at the same time.
https://hooktube.com/watch?v=UXkpFajH66A
2b4b26 No.549281
>>549276
>What did you expect? He failed at artschool, was homeless for a long time and served in WWI as a grunt. Do you really think he knew anything about engineering?
Not really, no.
df63f2 No.549284
>>549274
That sounds about right to me. Like you said, no shortage of lore and urban legends, doesn't hurt to be cautious about it.
>>549276
Awesome, thank you.
084b15 No.549288
>>549276
>There is a nice bit about the naming of the MP-43 in one of the forgotten weapons on the StG44.
I really wish Ian wasn't such a massive faggot because I like content like this.
2b4b26 No.549289
>>549287
>Don't open
This warning needs to be a lot stronger
33bbf8 No.549291
>>549287
What the fuck Strelok
d19db1 No.549292
>>549281
Too obvious, pinko. Go push your pro-zionist filth elsewhere.
a0cefd No.549293
>>549287
Post moar I have some of his planefu stuff on my PC back home
a0cefd No.549294
>>549293
Ironically of course
2b4b26 No.549295
>>549292
Go carve another Swastika into your dick
56ec5f No.549296
>>549287
>>549288
>>549289
>>549291
>>549292
>>549293
>>549294
Are you just bullying me so I get angry and post moar tanks?
084b15 No.549299
665b85 No.549300
>>549293
No because the other art is of male tanks.
>his
It's a she
a0cefd No.549305
>>549296
S-sorry, Fritz-chan. I promise all of my posts will have tonks from now on. I’ll keep posting odd-balls so you can explain them.
StuG sled to transport German troops and some (presumed) WWI scout tank (or joke?)
>>549300
>she
I no longer find those pictures attractive.
665b85 No.549306
>>549305
How come? A lot of porn artists are women.
b451f5 No.549309
>>549306
W-what? Actually?
56ec5f No.549314
>>549305
>first two pics
Perfectly plausible, but I have never seen it. Sleighs were often used for transporting things behind tanks, since some metal runners require far less (virtually no) maintenance than a wheel. It will also not get stuck in deep mud, and the weight of the load is distributed across a larger area.
The third image is an old fake.
>>549309
Yes. Shadman is married BTW.
78ab20 No.549317
>>549309
Yeah, ratbat's a chick. There are others as well, specially in hentai.
9eadfb No.549321
>>549314
>The third image is an old fake.
I was joking when I said a scout vehicle, but I figured some bored Soldaten just nigger-rigged a mini tank for fun.
>Yes. Shadman is married BTW
Come on Germany, you have all of your Umlauts right there on the right side of your keyboard don’t be lazy, you if all people should know the difference between a and ä. Is Shädman married to a loli? Isn't he half nigger?
>>549317
I honestly don’t follow any artists, but I’m honestly shocked that there are “lots” of them that are grills.
56ec5f No.549327
>>549321
I never knew which one was the correct spelling of shäd, so I just went with a insteaed of ä. Just t calm your autism:
The M274 was a light weight utility vehicle. While it is not a tank, it is related to this thread. No matter how cute your tank is, it will need a proper logistics network and replacement parts. Instead of having soldiers carry around heavy equipment at base or in a FOB, they could just use one of these cute fellas instead. During the Vietnam war varying armaments were mounted onto these little things, including but not limited to:
40mm recoilless rifles
.50 brownings
TOW launchers
They were eventually phased out, and are now mostly a collectors item. Pictured is one such example in Japan in use by a civilian.
348fbf No.549334
>>549327
I know a guy who has one of those, sure it doesn't go too far or go fast but god damn will it ever carry what you need wherever you need.
1ee0e4 No.549335
>>549327
It’s supposed to be shademan so it would need the ä as the English a wouldn’t work.
>Just t calm your autism:
>t. Germany
702678 No.549336
I like big girls.
>>549158
>that rusty sad looking tank in 1st pic
F
b8d594 No.549350
Anyone know what the heck this thing is? The hull shape looks vaguely like a really boxy Sherman, but the turret is too small and the rear 'deck' for the AA gun looks like it was added in the field.
665b85 No.549363
>>549336
There's being into big gals, then there's being into giantesses.
ae6ff5 No.549371
>>549336
I think that’s a guy. I’m not 100% sure but I think I see a little bit of dick, in this area. Can any anon with trap experience confirm?
49635b No.549380
>>549038
>jocks
>celts
Nice meme, the only place left with any amount of celts is Wales. England, Cornwall, all of the lowlands and Ulster got Anglo'd pretty hard. Hell, even the Republic, with all their "oh the emerald isle is muh celtic homeland!" are mostly genetically Norman nowadays anyway.
ae6ff5 No.549426
>>549380
Doesn’t Brittany still have a large number of bretons?
49635b No.549431
d19db1 No.549434
>>549295
Cleanse the isles of Jewish filth. Undo William's betrayal.
ae6ff5 No.549436
2b4b26 No.549479
>>549436
Occupied Trans-Channel England does still have a fair few Bretons, but their French oppressors have been trying to force mixed marriage on them as a way to wipe out their people and culture.
4fe912 No.549483
>>549350
Its Japanese amphibious tank Ka-Mi with its back extension still in place and with bolted on 25mm Type 96 AA gun.
3881c0 No.549493
>>549479
>French government banning the naming of children with Breton names in Brittany
>but Arabic names are fine
Makes smee rink dink
ae6ff5 No.549548
>>549479
That’s what I was trying to figure out from the other UK anon who seemed to figure Brittany was French.
6ddc7f No.549551
>>549479
You should sink their navy again to teach the Frogs a lesson.
26d4cf No.549558
>>549483
Thanks serbanon. I clearly need to brush up on my Jap vehicles.
665b85 No.549560
>>549380
The Irish are actually Gaels, same with the Scots and Ulster, no matter how hard the Ulster Scots like to believe otherwise. Pretty different from the Normans although they do have Norman blood in there.
Where the fuck in here are there still Celts? You already listed Cornwall so it can't be another county.
>>549426
About 200,000, but for whatever reason the French government is trying their best to get rid of them along with all the other regional peoples.
>>549558
The Jap WW2 vehicles are awful, really outdated tech.
They're cute as heck, though.
2b4b26 No.549568
>>549493
https://www.thelocal.fr/20170515/comment-tu-tappelles-french-authorities-ban-traditional-breton-name
>TFW a story seems too ludicrous to be true, but that doesn't stop them.
>>549548
It honestly depends on how you look at it. National borders in Europe and the UK do not often follow ethnic or even cultural groups - it's an unavoidable conclusion of a few millennia of war, conquest, and movement.
>>549551
The numbers break very slightly in their favour, not to say that would help them much, but at this time I don't think Britain has the political will to go back to the old ways.
094593 No.549869
>/cute/ tank thread
>Discussing obscure tonks
Shitposting aside this seems relevant.
https://files.catbox.moe/dp0ln3.jpg
2b4b26 No.549875
>>549869
>2 man tanks
>Not the glorious single crewman master race
49635b No.549880
>>549560
>same with the Scots and Ulster
Errr… No lad. Only really the highland west coast of Scotland was Gaelic, the rest used to be Pictish and eventually became mostly Anglo during the same time that England was going from Brittonic to Anglo. Said lowland Anglo jocks then migrated to Ulster.
You could argue that the Anglicisation of Britain was mostly cultural and lingual and that there wasn't much genetic change, in which case the jocks still aren't Gaels really, they'd mostly be Pictish/Brittonic.
08f8ae No.549943
>>549875
>tank
>main gun is a bren
>a moving *nosiy unconcealed* MG nest
>a tank
inb4 Bren isn’t a MG
2b4b26 No.549954
>>549943
>inb4 Bren isn’t a MG
Of course it isn't. It's a fully automatic, intercontinental, anti-tank, sniper, laser guided, nuke launcher.
763ade No.550047
>>549875
Looks good to me Is that Hugh Laurie driving that thing?
688072 No.550197
Did the kraut burn out his sperg fuse, or did he just give up on us? Cute Roach tank I miss when every country designed their own tanks
763ade No.550225
>>550197
>Roach designed this
But they didn't. That's an early version of the Bradley actually and a lot of countries use it
c9992c No.550229
>>550225
Wiki says it’s a roach design based on the Ami AIFV
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
702678 No.550261
>>549371
I-it's a feminine dick, anon.
ae6ff5 No.550263
>>550261
That’s the biggest dick I’ve ever seen, very feminine. It makes me rock hard just looking at it. I want to take that and destroy Soviet ammo depots 30 meters below ground
52149c No.550264
>>549229
>tiger 1 jumps straight to the maus
>no tiger 2
73458b No.550265
>>546090
Imagine the Tanks as Kancolle Version instead of ships, Tank Waifus
7f9306 No.550273
>>550265
>Czechs have never heard of panzermädels
56ec5f No.550479
HookTube embed. Click on thumbnail to play.
>>550337
>thread theme
>not posting embed related
fcf89d No.550483
HookTube embed. Click on thumbnail to play.
>>550479
The thread is about cute tanks, therefor you should post the version sung by THE GAY COMMUNITY!
20d328 No.550495
>>550229
>Roaches claiming credit for shit they never made
Say it ain't so?
56ec5f No.550498
>>550483
>swedish accent
I knew I should not have come back to this thread. We used to sing this song sometimes when I was still in the mil. But I did, and now I have to deal with the consequences.
TAAAAAAANKS!
Can't have a tank thread without at least mentioning the father of modern tank warfare: the Panzerkampfwagen IV, also known as Sonder Kraftfahrzeug 161. From the icy winters merely 35 kilometers from the Kremlin, down to the simmering heat of El Alamein, this tank was the main workhorse of the German war effort in WWII, besides the obvious workhorses that were still in use. It went through major modifications from the beginning of the German/Russian war onwards. Despite it's fame, the PzIV was severely outgunned during the early months of WWII. It had great trouble penetrating French and English medium tanks, such as the Matilda II.
Only after this became painfully obvious during Operation Barbarossa were plans drafted to fit the PzIV with a longer gun, and the first few shipments of these newly modified versions were fielded in summer '42, and eventually replaced all
Many later modifications were made, but the change of the gun was probably the most important.
I would like everyone to take a moment and appreciate papa Panzer, tank thread would be complete without him.
ae6ff5 No.550541
File: d0e928bdae1179c⋯.jpeg (Spoiler Image, 243.98 KB, 800x583, 800:583, DDCC6941-B51C-4475-AEE1-3….jpeg)
>>550498
>We used to sing this song sometimes when I was still in the mil.
Panzertruppe? I was thinking between infantry and Fallschirmjäger after Uni. Though I’m not 100% sure I want to fight for Israel/multi-kulti. Unless there was a large chance of a putsch I’m not sure if I will join, but your recommendation?
Off-topic sage
PYSCH MORE TANKS
57865c No.555982
>>550541
>French had retarded amounts of different Tanks in service that performed the same role cause nobody could agree who would get to make them.
The 1930 French military was worse than current day NATO procurement..
5a0dd6 No.566388
>>550541
We need more tanks in these dark times, leafanon.
2634b4 No.566477
>>555982
To be entirely fair to the French army of the 1930's they were still getting over the trauma caused by abandoning red trousers as part of their combat uniform.
85924c No.566486
>>566477
They could no longer hide the fact that they all synchronized their periods. Of course they had to figure out a way to hide that fact before defending their country.
67cd1d No.566492
>>549321
>I’m honestly shocked that there are “lots” of them that are grills.
Same here at first, and they either draw gay shit, fucked up shit (pic related) or vanilla.
>>549350
>that fucking sad face
Why does rusted faces always give the heeby-jeebies /k/?
>>566490
Like father, like son
It brings a tear into my eye when i see a weapon having a descendant that has some semblance to its original design.
Also i like seeing 2D tanks abit more compared to 3D tanks for some reason, it has a certain charm to me atleast when its done properly.
f49f00 No.566501
>>566492
I really like how many artists are actually female.
Atleast 50% when you think about it.
dc9a7f No.566536
>>549314
>Yes. Shadman is married BTW.
plotwist:
>Shadman's online face is actually Shadman's husband and she's a loli
e84446 No.566538
>>566492
>first pic
Is she growing a hooknose, or what?
f49f00 No.566565
>>566538
Where to find a Magyar to cuddle
e26dc1 No.566571
>>547545
>Tree powered Tank
>Al Gore would be pleased.
Strelok we live in a world that has the technology to build a solar powered electric tank.
>>549281
>Adolf Hitler
>born 1889
>lost his father with 14
>wanted to be an artist with 17
>denied entry into art school, because his art contained "to few faces", one guy thought he would be a better architect
>same year his mother dies
>forced to stay in Vienna and live in poverty while selling picture postcard
>finally gets the leftover inheritance from his father and moves to Munich in Germany
>WW1 breaks out, he returns to Austria after getting the drafting letter but is deemed unfit by the doctors
>so he returns to Germany and enlists in the Bavarian Army
>serves as a despatch runner, gets the Iron Cross
>gets into a Gas attack, becomes temporarily blind and learns that Germany has lost
>returns to Munich, Communist try to take over the City
>Hitler become a Spy for the Reichswehr with 29 to observe a small radical political party
>is discovered as an awesome political speaker by this political party, made their leader and has a huge success
>fails at a coup with 31 and is sent into prison
>here Hitler writes Mein Kampf
>it becomes a bestseller and Hitler is a millionaire with 36
>comes out of prison and has now become so popular he reforms his political party
>beats the Communist in Street fights and becomes Chancellor of Germany with 44
>rebuild Germany, removes degenerates, liberates the Rhineland from the French, takes over Austria and Czechoslovakia
>basically 6 years of technological progress and prosperity for Germany
>WW2 starts in 1939, Hitler is 50
>he conquers Poland in an Alliance with Russia, then he defeats France, drives Britain of the Continent, conquers the Netherlands and Norway
>the Anti-Comintern Pact is founded with Nations friendly to Germany
>Germany helps out Italy, conquers the Balkan and Greece
>sadly not everything goes the right way and the war turns in 1941, Germany loses the air battle over Britain and still decides to invade the Soviet Union
>Germany is still kicking ass but slowly losing, especially after the USA joins the war and support the Soviet Union and UK with material
>still the three most powerful Countries need 3 more years to reach Berlin
>Hitler commits suicide with 56 before the Allies or his Parkinson can kill him
By the end of his live Hitler had been a veteran of two World Wars, was an Ex-Spy, a leader of a political party, the total leader of one of the most powerful countries in the world, a millionaire and a bestseller author.
He managed to survive several assassination attacks and defeated several strong political opponents to reach for power.
If SJW faggots actually had the drive of Hitler after WW1, I wouldn't be into politic and worried about the world because they could actually accomplish the positive and naive image they have about the world.
2860aa No.566574
>>566571
>Strelok we live in a world that has the technology to build a solar powered electric tank.
How long till warfare is regulated on emissions?
f2ca0c No.566587
>>548973
>These were the only effective tanks the Poles had in WWII against German armour.
not really, 7TP was also nice design with 37mm gun which could penetrate any german tank but on the other hand 149 tanks during war is rather insignificant number.
9565f5 No.566614
>>546090
Beep beep AMX-10 coming through
e4d3ae No.566639
>>566571
>covering your tank in solar panels
What could possibly go wrong?
57865c No.566641
>>566574
>When you can't bring Tanks onto the battlefield due to carbon tax
I can actually see this happening eventually.
85924c No.566642
>>566571
>By the end of his live Hitler had been a veteran of two World Wars
>veteran of two World Wars
He didn't fight in WWII.
>a millionaire
"His" money was mostly party money. He didn't work for a cent of it.
>a bestseller author
because he literally gave away a copy of his book to all German households for free. Harly a bestseller.
2b4a9b No.566660
>>566388
I’ll start spamposting after work again, I thought the thread died over a month ago. Haven’t been on /k/ much recently, anyways. Sorry commonwealth bro.
fdd04f No.566678
*teleports in front of your tracks*
*destroys a multi-million machine with 20 dollars worth of explosives*
nothing personal, kid
39e5bf No.566720
>>566660
god i wish that were me
f541e3 No.566746
Please help me /k/. I got super bored at work and thought why the fuck Russia bothered so much with the T70 despite it being a blind two man deathtrap armed with the tank equivalent of a BB gun.
I then thought of a way to make it less shit which turned into me thinking why the hell no one else like the french thought of this idea as they were also dumb enough to invest heavily into one man turrets.
What if you just kinda put a big open topped gun shield with low walls and a retractable tarp to keep out rain? It would be kinda like the ACAV shields on the M113 or Sheridan but on a macro scale that would give the commander the most important thing for a tank that hopelessly crewed: visibility. It might have even been able to do recon and not be totally blind to everything around it. Something like the B1 would have done a lot better if the commander could look out literally anywhere in his turret by standing. red would be the redefined turret, orange is the tarp rolled and the dashed line is unfolded
9338f9 No.566754
>>566746
I'd be willing to bet they bothered with it because they had the materials and the designs laying around, since it's based on an old design. I agree that 1 man turrets are useless, but why not add an extra crewman and make it a tracked M8 Greyhound? Does the turret ring not facilitate 2 crew and a gun?
No scoutcar will ever be as good as the Daimler.
00dbc5 No.566755
>>566746
So basically the PzII H?
f541e3 No.566773
>>566754
The T70 turret was only big enough for one man. The FT-17s the french had were a sunk cost, but they planned on having them upgraded with the H35 turret at some point. This idea is what got them stuck on making horrible piles of garbage with no visibility and a commander with way too many things to do. The French kinda had that as an excuse because they wanted their fleet of obsolete wind up toys to still be relevant. Of course I feel that they could have done way better with an open gun shield design, especially for vehicles like the B1 which only used its turret for anti-tank purposes anyway. Its just so backwards that the driver had to tell the commander/loader/gunner what the fuck he was looking at in those things.
But the T70 strikes me as bizarre because it was put into production in 1942. WAY after everyone realized that one man turrets were fucking terrible. And they kept making the damn things without one person thinking that it might be better to be able to fucking see out of the vehicle if you were going to pretend it was for recon.
>>566755
Probably something like that, though the panzer2 had a two man turret so it wouldn't have been as snug. I was thinking of just an oversized shield like what you see on up-armored humvees. I just don't understand because it sounds so simple and so much more effective than shitty vision slits because the tiny turret gave no real protection from AT guns anyway.
540148 No.566775
Type 94-chan is best tank. Prove me wrong streloks.
>inb4 "tankettes aren't even real tanks."
2634b4 No.566823
>>566571
>Hitler had been a veteran of two World Wars, was an Ex-Spy, a leader of a political party, the total leader of one of the most powerful countries in the world, a millionaire and a bestseller author.
User was Gulagged for this post
85924c No.566824
>>566823
>Gulagged
>not KZed
You tried.
a0d426 No.566826
Still have the ~20k WWII images I picked up on half/t/ couple years ago, might as well post some.
85924c No.566827
>>566826
>~20k images
MEGA pls.
5a0dd6 No.566829
>>566775
Your tankfu is gay.
540148 No.566830
>>566829
It's not gay if they have a feminine engine.
>>566827
Here's some American home front photos while you wait.
a0d426 No.566831
>>566827
Maybe I'll upload it in the evening, if I remember to.
540148 No.566833
>>566830 [1/6]
I'm going to dump some from my WWII collection. Since I'm retarded, I put my Winter War & Polish pictures in the same folder, not that it really matters. As always, enjoy the tanks streloks. Sage for image dump.
5a0dd6 No.566834
>>566830
>It's not gay if they have a feminine engine.
No anon, your tankfu is a flaming homo twink with an embarrassingly tiny barrel.
That may or may not be a bad thing depending on your preferences.
540148 No.566835
>>566833 [2/6]
Universal Carrier is best APC. Deal with it.
540148 No.566837
>>566834 [3/6]
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in /k/, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on the ATF, and I have over 300 confirmed boats sunk. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire board. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of shitposters across Australasia and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking assblasted, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can shittershatter you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my keyboard. Not only am I extensively trained in information warfare, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the ADF and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue about my tankfu. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo. By the way, enjoy the tanks.
5a0dd6 No.566840
>>566837
Your tankfu enjoys getting pounded in the exhaust by the other tanks' larger barrels.
540148 No.566841
>>566840 [4/6]
It pains me to do this to the rest of the board, but you'll have to reflect on your ancestors for that. Look upon their inhumanly pallid flesh, beady eyes, greasy hair and aquiline noses and quiver in fright.
540148 No.566843
>>566841 [5/6]
It's a little known fact that Australia wasn't always a nation of shitposters. In fact, during WWII, there was little shitposting from our nation. During the 1930's, Spain was the undisputed champion, with their 'Fat Cunts' army, but other nations got in the action during and after "Our Darkest Hour."
540148 No.566844
>>566843
As proof of this claim, look upon these images. British & American soldiers painted their cars to terrorize canines and their planes to frighten birds, and the Germans went so far into shitposting territory that they started painting their tanks a shade of beige to camouflage them when they were at sea. Sadly, their sense of humor was all but annihilated after the war.
5fbc2c No.567002
>>566826
M3 Stuart is best tanku waifu, fight me faggots.
>4th pic
Riding a goliath sounds like an absolute boat load of fun.
a0d426 No.567004
>>566827
Luckily for me, it seems the torrent is still active:
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:d5baba205a1b29f4c38dbeb7c0157366ddd49b14&dn=WWII%20stills%20and%20more&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2fopen.demonii.com%3a1337&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.coppersurfer.tk%3a6969&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.opentrackr.org%3a1337%2fannounce
42b2ff No.567166
>>549281
As opposed to Marx, a fat uneducated autist who had no job, did absolutely nothing of note, and lived in his mother's house writing poorly thought-out books about his dream utopian ideology where he never had to do anything.
0b8df1 No.567191
Tanks a shit, buggys are the way to go, you can just cruise around with your waifu with no worry, unlike the stress tanks cause.
5a0dd6 No.567214
>>567191
>you can just cruise around with your waifu with no worry
What if my waifu is a tank?
0b8df1 No.567221
>>567214
Then get better taste.
5a0dd6 No.567224
>>567221
What would constitute a better waifu?
0b8df1 No.567226
>>567224
Something that isn't so high maintenance like a tank, and is going to do more or as much for you as you do for it. Something that is going to last you for a long time, something such as the kettenkrad.
540148 No.567230
>>567226
>tanks are too high maintenance, just use a nigger rigged bike bro!
At that point, why not just use a technical? At least she's useful around the battlefield.
f2fd0f No.567231
>>567166
>fat uneducated autist
>did absolutely nothing of note
>lived in his mother's house
>poorly thought-out books about his dream
5a0dd6 No.567233
>>567230
>spraying on her like she's a used whore
Fucking disgusting, Muslims have no respect.
540148 No.567234
>>567231
>The year is 2088 and the Chandlerists, a radical religious movement funded by America's rivals seizes power, ending the union forever
>"God-Emperor Trump II" is publicly executed outside the Golden Palace
>the nation's capital is moved to Ruckersville, Virginia, in the exact location where the cult believes their lord & savior once lived
>CWCville is finally made a reality by the Chandlerists, as the inbred grandchild of CWC & his adopted daughter, "Sonichu Chandler Jr.", assumes the ultimate title of authority; Mayor of CWCville
>all niggos, jerkops, ching chongs, homos and dykes are rounded up and purged in a series of pogroms
>all boyfriend-free girls are divided up and given to the conquering soldiers of the "Love Quest"
2634b4 No.567325
>>566824
Remind me, wasn't/isn't Merkal a communist?
2b4a9b No.567565
>>567326
The most disgusting part of that photo is that women are not only involved in politics but wearing military uniforms.
ba9fb4 No.567982
>>546090
>Is it wrong to be sexually attracted to tanks?
Not at all.
I am sexually attracted to firearms and war machines, no joke. What's wrong with me?
57865c No.569803
>>567002
WRONG
>>567191
Isn't the buggy the official light vehicle of the Brotherhood of /k/?
85924c No.569894
>>569803
>hetzer
>not Wiesel
CUTE AS FUCK
U
T
E
A
S
F
U
C
K
e6b3cd No.569912
>>569894
>no wiesel tankette will ever be made available for civilian sale.
>you will never get to weight up between adopting a W1 or W2
>you will never roam the backwoods in your tankette blasting spooks, ayys, and skinwalkers with 20mm autofun
How do we change this germany?
How do we save our tankette daughterus?
5fbc2c No.569930
3b694e No.569960
>>569912
You build it. I got enough shit to build a Ha-Go, it shouldn't be hard to source a dead dozer and steel.
5fbc2c No.569971
>>569960
I've seen some 1950's Cats under $3k in various classifieds. /k/ needs an armored segment. Can't get the super-modern armor to defeat modern anti-tank weapons so you really only need to focus on making the tanks bullet proof out to about .50 BMG which could be done with enough steel and money. Killdozer managed to do it, and his designs used non-armor steel and concrete which isn't giving you the best weight to bullet resistance ratio.
9655d7 No.569973
>>546714
People forget that the most prolific and ass-pain inducing shitposter was an Australian that got banished to an Ecuadorian embassy
3b694e No.569980
>>569971
Spaced armor, rubber. There is enough homebrew ways to increase survivability, the latter of which the serbs did to keep whatever t34's they had running as long as possible.
5fbc2c No.569985
>>569980
You've gotten me curious, is non-explosive reactive armor what you're pretty much referring to? I had never heard of it before now.
3b694e No.569989
>>569985
I'm referring to serbs covering tanks in rubber. If that is ERA without the E then sure.
5fbc2c No.569997
>>569989
Somebody is going to have to explain to me how exactly this helped.
f541e3 No.570002
>>569989
I was under the impression that the rubber mats were added for the comfort of ride on infantry… because half an inch is pretty shit stand off range.
97acc0 No.570004
Has anyone drawn a French Char tank in Char colors?
3b694e No.570007
>>569997
Apparently recoilless guns have shit velocity and the rubber would bounce the fucking things/have them not detonate.
>>570002
Note the tires between the turret and rubber on the t34. Its impromptu spaced armor with whatever they had on hand.
a69129 No.570038
>>547502
>United Cuntdom complaining about warcrimes.
And i thought the french were arrogant and audacious.
e6b3cd No.570053
>>570038
>dredging up 2 month old flagstirring
y'know poland, some people like their threads better when they dont stay de-railed. Now if you could please post some sexy polish tankettes i would most appreciate it.
a69129 No.570059
>>570053
Tankettes? Are you some kind of werido?
Also, i will chimp out where i want, when i want, and you cant stop me.
Fuck United Zogdom and their agent (((Józef Beck))) for starting ww2.
954679 No.570093
>>547545
You like that? Boy have I got good news for you.
6ddc7f No.570099
>>570060
Why is that Benis MG so huge?
fa3ba7 No.570102
>>570099
It's thick, not big.
d5e7a0 No.570111
>>570093
Those are wood syngas generators, right?
Also, it's probably just a proxy but
RARE FLAG
51f2e2 No.570118
>>570111
I guess the answer is yes, as Germans used some tanks like that for training. I take it's a Tiger used to teach drivers.
5ff125 No.570127
>>570099
>>570102
It's a 37mm AT gun, not an MG
199cb9 No.570250
>>570127
>>570099
He's referring to the hull gun, which is I believe is fat due to there being armor plating around it's water tank.
57865c No.570395
>>570361
>that front
Looks like a derp face
2b4a9b No.570399
>>570395
>04/07/18 (Sat) 17:31:04 57865c (17) No.570395
>04/07/18
>/18
>derp
084b15 No.570400
>>570398
Just noticed the Maus doesn't have a muzzle brake, why not?
1953ae No.570418
>>570400
It's so heavy that recoil doesn't affect it.
bd4aa2 No.570428
>>569997
The bullets just bounce off, duh
42a482 No.570975
>>549233
Yeah, Schwerer Gustav and Dora. On 80-wheel "carriages". >_<
And back on topic - Maus.
>>549243
>Why wasn't it ever used?
Because it's only sometimes useful against something which in itself has a niche only slightly wider than that of Dora, and even more of a liability.
>>549276
>After what happened with Germany in WWI no one really wanted to be the first one to use chemical weapons on a grand scale in WWII.
Not after the World Revolution. ;) Soviet Union did produce chemical weapons, planned to use (there's a scanned artillery handbook on 'net with instructions on use), and even trained Germans a bit.
But practically this stuff would have been used in circumstances that rarely actually happened, and then it wasn't among the top concerns to even have any available.
Given how things rolled in 1939 on Far East, even less feasible.
And for USA, there was no point to even consider it, between the small-island-hopping war and having to haul everything by ocean.
>>549243
>Isn't that the case for most Soviet tanks?
Lolwut.
T-18 was local design, somewhat based on Renault FT.
Then licensed Vickers knock-offs T-26 (surprisingly good) and T-27. Otherwise, designed from scratch (though many with Christie suspension) and earlier attempts (T-35 used T-28 parts, T-37A used T-27 parts).
fa3ba7 No.571040
76f064 No.579222
Loyd Carriers don't get enough appreciation.
7f58aa No.579229
>>549229
Neither. The relative short of it, and I will keep it as 'the short of it' because I have done the whole long of it many a time, is that the German procurement agency- the Waffenamt- was rather conservative, and this combined with the limited/short war mentality & very limited to nonexistent cooperation between private R&D teams led to the retardation of various lines of development and the development of a gun-armor gap, as opposed to crash engineering early when they could afford it and going from there. This then bit them in the ass a bit into the Soviet front, as the occasional T-34s and KVs- there were more than a handful of them even at the start, even as their mechanical reliability was worse than the most logistically deprived late war clankers- would proceed to pose operational speedbumps. And then, to serve as a good enough deathtrap to kill enough Germans that the severely disproportionate losses, combat or operational, ceased to matter. Especially as they fared better against the iller-armed armies of the rest of the Axis.
What was imposed afterwards was that the Germans- Hitler and his circle, the army, the procurement people, everybody- were eternally thinking that they will get fucked over by another T-34 or KV rolling out of the woodworks, not knowing the Soviets' own superheavies and advanced mediums were all scrapped almost the instant the invasion began or slightly later as the Soviets settled first on T-34 mass production, and then on the adoption of an enlarged turret from the doomed successor projects. So they tried to leap ahead and get a next-next generation out; the Tiger and Panther are a result of this, the former developing out of the acceleration of preexisting assault tank development that had puttered around, the latter the attempt to get a new mass production tank in the 'Russian' pattern of angled construction. But this lent them to neglect their previous mass production vehicles, either for lack of perspective or inability to keep production high.
The StuG III never sees a Jagdpanzer IV- like redesign; the Panzer IV H with mine-proof belly, winter tracks and angled glacis was killed by suspension issues/nosing, who knows if they were amenable, getting a flat 80mm glacis instead. And the advanced tanks didn't arrive quite as desired, because a 10cm too short turret ring (potentially the intentional sabotage of Krupp) fucks the Tiger I out of using the Flak 41 (a Rheinmetall gun, hence the fuckery) or an equivalent as Hitler explicitly desired. The Panther had its mess of problems from MAN using it as a testbed for lots of interesting things, like the river crossing-proof sealed engine compartment (never used, makes it a tinder box of gas & fumes when combined with leaky porous fuel lines) and its being forced into production post-haste causing all kinds of mechanical havoc and design compromises. Straight-toothed transmission gearing is a bad idea on a 45 ton vehicle.
Eventually, the 'we must counter the enemy's counter before it reaches the field' jump-ahead ethic results in the true superheavy line. First the Lowe, intended as a successor to the Tiger, and if a draft was ever completed & selected existing somewhere in the 75-90 ton range, purpose designed for it unlike the bloated Tiger II. But the Lowe is viewed as potentially not big enough; it gets scrapped in favor of some early drafts for the Maus, then called Mammut. Those drafts are increasingly refined and perfected, but mostly enlarged, until becoming the monstrosity we all know. Such a vehicle might have had a niche as a fortress buster- like a big fuckoff turreted super-assaultgun- and maybe as a battlefield superiority weapon also, and with the overexaggeration of CAS as a direct armor attacker wasn't so vulnerable as often described, but that niche was not necessary or viable when it was finished as a prototype. Later, Krupp proposes to hybridize production with their Tiger-Maus, which further develops into the pseudo-standardized E-100, the far more reasonably laid out cousin of the Maus. It's not literally invincible, but it is a tough nut to crack and puts a 128cm gun & 75mm HE slinger into one turret on the minimum hull necessary and a shitload lighter while filling the same niche. It is captured as an incomplete hull by the bongs, who laugh it up as being 'obsolete' and then scrap it.
7f58aa No.579230
>>579229
And somewhere in the middle of that the Germans remember that they need a Tiger successor and an 'ordinary' superheavy in the vein of the Lowe anyways, so the similar though lighter, lesser-gunned and more cramped Tiger II results, overweight and theoretically reaching production later than the Lowe would have arrived had it never been shelved. I think the projection was two or three months earlier, this whether that Lowe would resemble one of the old drafts at a somewhat fatter 80 tons (the six generally increasing weight estimates didn't necessarily reflect increasing weight of armor or gun between drafts, so I'm skeptical of the 90 ton estimates) or simply been a near-same-weight Tiger II with more internal wiggle room and no farcical mild parts interchangeability with the Panther. Either way it'd likely get a DB602 1000 hp diesel engine; 12.5 hp/ton instead of the 8.9. As a result, something like a thousand Tiger IIs get bombed out mid-production and the whole factory destroyed, where more of the Lowe might've reached the front, faster and with less short & long term problems, being designed fat rather than bloated there. And being sexy sons of bitches. There's just something about its cast turret I really like, and a simplified rolled-&-welded version would likely look like a mean motherfucker.
As for the Landkreuzer, that thing was the brainchild of Edward Grotte, who was basically the sole major proponent of the concept and had been hooked on it all through the interwar. He proposed it to the Soviets with a 1000-ton turret farm tank projection. He also gave them a weird kinda-Churchill with Tank Grotte and a double-scale T-35 in the T-42, rejected because they couldn't figure out the powerplant (which needed 2000 HP, meaning a nonexistent engine or two boat diesels) and because it was too big though at least theoretically useful a paperweight, and they preferred the few-gunned house-scale paper tiger over something with 70mm of armor in 1932, albeit at 100 tons. And after those went nowhere, he proposed the P. 1000 Ratte in '42, a refined version of his earlier concept. It abandoned the turret farm in favor of being a battlecruiser turret on tracks, plus some defensive armaments. While deeply impractical, it is at least a good (probably red herring) HQ, a mobile pair of railway guns, and most importantly a big fucking target for the Soviets to waste their attention and air power on trying to escort a bomber or ten or a hundred in to peg it if it spooks somebody with clout. Like a hunt for the Bismarck on land, except in spite of being far less maneuverably wily, it might not end well for the hunters, because air cover might blunt the pointlessly diverted efforts to destroy it. And it doesn't have a rudder to jam by torpedo. I don't think they'd be able to pull the same trick/fluke on its gigantic triple tracks, even if they very deliberately tried with dive bombing.
The heavier and actually more strategically practical but still whacky P. 1500 Monster, a Dora 800mm gun on tracks- this would actually be a decent boon for actually aiming the damn thing as well as freeing its movements slightly, as though the Dora has no turntable, the Monster can turn in place and move independent of railways, although it may be a hopelessly thirsty motherfucker for diesel compared to the trains if they don't just put a coal boiler on her and make it some kind of a steam-electric transmission deal, God help them finding a good quality motor supplier for all the good Porsche got out of them for his gas-electric transmission version of the Tiger I- followed thereafter. Speer canceled these, no-fun production-rationalizing cunt that he is.
tl;dr unwise laurel resting followed by panic developments combined with poor leashing of your R&D people is a hell of a drug.
23eec8 No.579232
>>579229
>the ass a bit into the Soviet front, as the occasional T-34s and KVs- there were more than a handful of them even at the start
Germany invaded with only 6000, mostly obsolete, tanks. The ussr had more than 1000 t34 tanks in 41 alone.
http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-t-34-in-wwii-the-legend-vs-the-performance/
7f58aa No.579238
>>579232
Yes. Hence the statement, 'more than a handful,' the omission there being 'contrary to what most believe,' because dirty commie apologists tend to act as if the T-34 was a magic bullet of sacred tonk modernity that came along later on in any substantial number, rather than mostly irredeemable boondoggle in decent numbers even in '41 that got its shit kicked in every respect including and largely, in the beginning near completely by its own sub-Panther tier borked mechanics before getting retrofitted to be just un-shit enough that it could start pulling weight (with still short legs before a breakdown and subsequent abandonment, to then maybe get picked up by follow on brigades for reservicing) in the face of Axis logistical-operational fuckuppery & lagging procurement and engage in its supposed 'war-winning' field activities. And before that, the gun-armor gap statement- the most succinct point of the obsolescence of what the Germans entered into Barbarossa with- which is what in part made it possible for the T-34 to have time to get its shit fixed in the first place and to more importantly be relevant enough to cause the procurement avalanche of uncouth German response, rather than getting murdered wholesale by the Germans if they were maybe a year or half a year more on their toes than OTL.
b53a61 No.579244
>>549281
>Hitler was an SJW.
Go back to ResetEra, goon.
189ab5 No.579356
>>579229
>>579230
Now I don't want to start another "what did the krauts fuck up in ww2" thread (after all, it's much easier to discuss the few things they did right), but do I understand correctly that if they planned better, then it would have looked somehow like this?
>at the very least after the battle of France they start upgrading the Panzer IV with long barreled 75mm guns and whatnot
>they also keep experimenting with their heavy tank projects
>Barbarossa happens, they upgrade the Panzer IV even further to be superior to the T-34
>also use their experiences from heavy tank development to make the Löwe which they use like the soviets used the IS
>and they also start developing the E-100 to counter anything the allies might come up with
And what do you think of the Tiger I and Panther, were they a waste or necessary?
862784 No.579357
c96dcc No.579358
>>579356
>upgrade the Panzer IV even further to be superior to the T-34
Could you still call it a Panzer IV at that point? Wouldn't you have needed to change pretty much every component as well as radically reshaping the hull?
b8a517 No.579365
>>569912
>take compact excavator
>remove hydraulic arm
>add 20mm gun
What's next?
7f58aa No.579658
>>579356
If they planned better, those are good points. Others or paraphrases of what you've stated:
>Don't select leaf spring suspension for the Panzer IV to rush its prototypes out and then never amend it, gives shorter legs as far as tacking more shit on compared to torsion bars.
>Don't fuck around and fail to get some kind of 50mm gun in the Panzer III until after France; this was a direct order from Hitler that was ignored as I recall, in parallel with a dispute between the Waffenamt and the Inspector for the Mechanized Troops, denying and desiring the upgunning respectively. This was one thing that led to his increasing mistrust I'm sure.
>Don't even select the Panzer III & IV save as interim productions to begin with; have Hitler eyeball the dimensions, ask 'Why are we producing practically the same tank on two lines?' and force Daimler-Benz and Krupp to hybridize the design early as a state-issued imperative. Slightly bigger dimensions & turret ring like the IV, better hull & glacis layout like the III.
>Don't forget you have the Panzer-Selbstfahrlafette II for some ungodly reason and thus that you have a usable high-velocity 75mm tank gun design, developed from '36 onwards. Don't develop it so unreasonably slow that you end up with two of the things ready for Africa and never do shit with them, and then reinvent the wheel with the PaK 40 and KwK 40, which both use different god damn cartridge dimensions for only marginally improved performance on the PaK.
>Don't laurel-rest with the Durchbruchswagen and other heavy tank projections. Give some proper attention and resources to getting them underway, because the VK 30.01 and particularly the VK 36.01 are good semi-advanced mediums/pocket heavies to advance from over the old 20-25 tonners, nevermind the Tiger I that followed them.
>Don't dick around with engine development. Get fuel injection and tank diesels on your high priority list, and maybe fiddle with aero engines, definitely with naval ones for heavy tanks. Don't under-engine things and don't fail to cross-develop; if the VK 16.02 Leopard hull can hold the HL 157 P engine with 550 horsepower, why can't the similarly dimensioned- less wide, but substantially longer- Panzer IV do the same with some kerjiggering? It's an over 80% increase in power if you don't limit it. As long as it can bear the weight, you've now made a racecar exploitation tank.
>Rationalize the system and ethics of upgrades & retrofits to get even more mileage out of designs than they already did OTL. Things like asymmetrically strengthening frontal suspension in advance of nosing concerns, getting relatively unified and generous turret rings between weight classes to enable a degree of interchangeability like the theoretical and extreme match of a Panther Schmalturm onto a Panzer IV hull (the turret ring fits, but the weight would've fucked the already overweight IV) or at the very least don't dip below the IV's ring diameter on any non-light tank, thus enabling constant and incessant retrofitting of old materiel with new life on the scale of, say, the T-34-85 change or better. Everything has to be future proof, even if 'future' means tank destroyer, assault gun, munitions tractor, recon-in-force vehicle, infantry tank, etc.
>In this vein, continually refine 'classic' production vehicles into final production types, or neuer art vs. alter art. Slope those goddamn hulls not for the relative armor but to reduce the number of plate cuts & welds necessary, eliminate skeleton welds and bolt-ons in favor of jointed plate-only construction ala the Panther. Any production disruptions from this incrementalism will pale compared to the increased tool-up and final production numbers as well as increased survival rate.
>Consider serviceability of designs better. You typically had to have transmissions lifted out by crane, which usually meant yanking off a turret also by crane. Steal from the Burgers if you have to and make that shit a bolt on-bolt off affair for front transmissions, otherwise steal from the Ruskies by going rear transmission & get some proto-power pack design going, going more towards the latter as time goes on. Overlap but for the love of god don't interleave more than one layer of roadwheels; stack wheels directly on top of each other if you want to go that route. The maintenance corps will thank you. At some point, get Porsche's bolt-on longitudinal torsion bars, fiddle with them a bit to try and get the rocking problems out, and adopt as standard to make suspension replacement easier and to get the bottom of the hull back. If that fails, go for the somewhat similar washer-&-crannequin system used by the E-series.
7f58aa No.579659
>>579658
>Regarding the Panther: good concept, good pocket heavy weight class, bad execution through compromises made between trying to make it a future-proofed pocket heavy and making it a mass production vehicle under ill circumstances. You already know all of its massive mechanical fuckups. Don't make those fuckups. In fact, don't even select the MANther for your first round of advanced medium production. Pick the Daimler-Benz Panther instead. It takes the good constructional portions, the diesel engine and the rear transmission of the T-34, which is good; but looks similar, has narrow tracks as designed, and might suffer similar ergonomics as well as nosing if you're not careful, which is bad. Widen the tracks, strengthen the frontal suspension ahead of any retrofits, and give all units past prototypes/pre-production a reverse sloping rear, eliminating identification problems and maybe letting you shuffle the engine a little bit back for a bigger turret ring. The DB will come par with the OG Panther at worst, but since its only real hang-up was final turret design and figuring out how to get the long 75 in a smaller space, which could be suspended in favor of an L48 interim, I think it could come months earlier since it wouldn't run into so many teething problems, possibly early enough for an undelayed Kursk. The MANther will be selected for further development and come six months or a year later as a proto-MBT with an initial armor layout resembling the Panther II of OTL, and maybe that funky proto Schmalturm with the Starship-esque tower cupola & slanting roof.
>Regarding the Tiger: good idea, abhorrent execution for the singular fact of fucking themselves out of putting the long 88 onto a 54 long/60 short ton chassis by making the turret ring and body 10cm too small while using a cast face combined with a rolled steel back & side plate that takes a bending machine the size of a house to shape, meaning it can't be fucking fixed afterwards. If you still end up making that mistake, fuck the original turret design, phase in a rolled & welded blockhouse instead with the necessary dimensions. Don't send the earliest production models to an offensive in Leningrad and get them captured, letting the Soviets catch wind of what they're dealing with. Send them on defense, to somewhere lower intensity or where support is better guaranteed, holding them in effective reserve, and then launch them at something major. Like a Stalingrad flank or relief operation, or giving Rommel the additional stuff to kick absurd ass.
>Additionally, similar to the DB-MANther dilemma, just refining the VK 36.01 into a medium-heavy with the long 75mm and a Panther-like turret is superior to getting the Tiger out as early as it was, versus taking the time to refine the big boy and keep happy in the meantime with an ultra long-gunned fast KV equivalent, superior in essentially all respects to its opponent. Then, change some of the VK line over with little tooling changes, give both it and the Tiger proper bigger guns and revised hull & turret layouts (angles, narrow flat facing+Panther II 88 style breech shove-out) and you're golden. You could probably get this long-gun fast KV out in late 1941 or early 42 if used as more than a meandering testbed before deciding to crash-develop and bloat it up with side hull overhangs, more turret ring and a bigger engine deck, turning it into the Tiger I.
>If you're going for gigantism, yes, don't try and leap ahead all at once into two hundred ton monster territory. Just be happy with the Löwe as a 20 ton hop from the Tiger I and use it as situation demands as a heavy command tank, long-range steppe fighter, battering ram and bunker buster like a high velocity gunned IS-2 with its 10.5 to 12.8cm gun. You don't really need anything bigger than the Löwe, and probably not bigger than the Tiger I with a long 88 for that matter. You're already making something that dwarfs the opposition. But why not invest the tonnage into making the troops' lives easier? The ones that don't have to cross bridges, at least.
>Develop and build Porsche's funmauses and Krupp's more reasonable Tiger-Maus/E-100/Tiger III in limited numbers for specific roles. Use them to physically blast away the last communist strongholds at, in and past the Urals, and maybe as movable defense hardpoints in the West.
7f58aa No.579663
>>579659
tl;dr, mostly-Eastern Front timeline with conservative estimates because that's where the bulk of everything goes for the land war.
>RATIONALIZE EVERYTHING, logistics are God and retainment of tooling is Jesus
>angled hulls for everybody eventually, classic stepped hull in the meantimes up to the VK 30.01/2 DB and the retrofits that follow.
>Hazy pre/early war timeline for main AFVs, Panzer I -> Panzer II -> Panzer III/IV or hybrid with 50mm long, 75mm short, and limited 75mm long gun options -> VK 20.01 style improvements on the old mediums, MB809 diesels & overlapped wheels, Durchbruchswagen & VK 30 (H) experiments/limited production, Panzer I production kept on and transformed into a Bren Carrier equivalent utility vehicle, Panzer II streamlined, given some of its intended upgrades earlier and variants put in full production, larger autocannons and 50mm guns in open top Ausf. H turrets or Puma style slab turrets; these not necessarily before or in 1940 but sometime after
>1941 hits, New Construction initiatives following Soviet surprises, VK 36.01 hazily conceived post-Barbarossa as a new mass production heavy tank, a 'superheavy' tank concept starts getting drummed around, and the Panther requirements go out with Daimler-Benz the winner and MAN getting further development awards as consolation, all intended to tangle with the possible waves of operation-limiting shitbag T-34s & KV-1s, even with the improvements made over OTL; an on paper nonshit tank should be a wakeup call even if it's getting blown out, because it means the enemy COULD throw together something threatening on a material basis.
>1942, the VK 36 H starts hitting the field in full serial production, and late in the year neuer Art just starts hitting home, some of the new tanks metamorphizing into their slopey-dope variations or descendants
>Stalingrad occurs and isn't an army-devouring fiasco thanks to better and better-supplied vehicles earlier to lighten the blow, hold the flanks and blunt Uranus, as well as increased pace of tooling and production hardening the underbelly of Romanian & Italian divisions in the East with better licensed tanks and guns. Even if the city fighting goes badly, as long as the Soviets can be cut off and/or prevented from doing the same it won't mean the loss of an army group to encirclement.
>VK 30 D & Tiger I preproduction reach the field evaluation units and begin kicking shit. They will likely help to bring in a knockout punch at a contested Stalingrad just before the year is out, countering Operation Uranus with their long barrels and big meaty hull girth.
>Löwe designs are finalized, avoids getting scrapped by Porsche's goalpost raising for lack of perceived necessity, though Hitler gives him the go ahead for a parallel heavier design. Mice chitter furtively in the walls of the Fuhrerbunker for the entirety of the following month.
>1943, Kursk occurs and likely early with the armor advantage and no reason to delay for a miracle tank; with a relative to OTL boatload of Daimler-Benz pocket-panthers, improved Pz III/IV type mediums and derivatives, VK 36.01 derived assault tanks, and if occurring at OTL date, a handful of Tigers and preproduction MANthers (with Panther II layout as a proper heavy and sans ridiculous fucking problem, thanks to no rush or ill-advised component compromises) and all things considered it goes pretty swimmingly compared to OTL, Germany still has the legs for offensive & counterattack operations and can regain her losses, while the Soviets are totally off-balance and can't roll back the carpet purely on operational-logistical advantage like OTL
>Early in the year the Löwe is born, production beginning many months before the Tiger II which would turn out under poorly conditions one whole unit in 43 and lose 657 units on the factory floor to bombing in mid-44, eventually totaling 492, so even if the same bombings occur a lot more big cats are bound to hit the field, and be mechanically sturdier, more reliable and diesel-running; you could maybe get the Tiger I's production numbers a second time over if accounting for earlier production and certainly with air butterflies stopping the bombing
7f58aa No.579664
>>579663
>Everything after this point; doesn't matter. More incremental upgrades, cross-development and cross-production grafts, lofty standardization projects leading into the E-series, Porsche superheavies arrive in mere dozens to bully points of resistance or to act as paper tigers out west. Two or a few hundred Tiger-Mauses/E-100s (optimistic estimate) do the same. The Soviets are fought to a standstill, if not cut to pieces by counter-counteroffensives and the close of pitched battles. A negotiated peace at worst, otherwise Moscow is threatened by a second storm, at which point everything will begin to fall apart with the loss or even just the threat of loss of the single most important railway nexus and the Kremlin; Stalin's death, suicide, or drunken disappearance followed by fracture and coups on coups are exceedingly likely. A slow roll east as logistics and pacification of the indigenous population by bludgeon or the establishment of a puppet state follows.
>Victory of some kind? Ask if the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine have been doing their jobs for the extent of the war. Small procurement changes like one gun or vehicle don't tend to accomplish shit as butterflies go, but generally if you get even one of the German services to pull more weight with sweeping changes it'll snowball into a very bad time for the Allies. If the Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine do it, Britain is either checked or down and out, initiate snowball East. If the Heer does it, then the Soviets get the stick to some degree or another and that front closes 'til a continuation war, and maybe Africa isn't lost; that one is far more of a combined arms thing. Regardless, initiate snowball/detente West as Fortress Europe closes.
Whatever the case, as stated, if you grease the wheels enough to decisively close a front or make it untenable for the enemy to keep open, Germany can turn itself around and beat the other side to a peace or clean their clocks entirely, and no preening 'muh instant sunshine by 45' fags can stop that. That trick only works if she's preoccupied with both fronts, stretched thin and got her air forces' shit entirely fucked up while still getting a stalemate on the ground, and might just lead to further escalation or perhaps a very, very slow German-American nuclear exchange followed by a peace if the Bomb is in play on both sides; this isn't Japan where at complete disadvantage the Emperor will say 'fuck it, you win' and most everyone follows, this is a proper totalitarian state that will only radicalize further and further until you totally stop its ability to wage war. They already got the Dresden treatment a few times over, what's it matter if it happens with just one very expensive bomb?
The only thing the Axis can't do no matter how perfect you run it is credibly, offensively take on OTL or stronger America without a continuation war, and even that will take some serious doing, domestic assistance and a willingness to shoulder MAD possibilities if you don't get it done by the '60s or so. But otherwise, if you fix the issues, and the Allies do not psychically and perfectly counteract these changes in spite of already expecting the phantom threat of them OTL in not dissimilar fashion as the Germans were in expecting to deal with divisions of KV-3s and T-42s and whatever else, and thus hamstrung themselves trying to catch up two steps at a time to a fictional tonnage gap after letting their development lag behind- example, the British home fleet carrier allotments & production arrangements were made under the assumption that Graf Zeppelin and her sister ship were actually going to launch, but when people naively ask 'wat if germoney carrier' they'll say 'the British add another two carriers to the Home Fleet, uh duh you wehraboo idiot'- then you can cause snowball effects pretty readily.
cb665b No.579856
>>579664
>the British home fleet carrier allotments & production arrangements were made under the assumption that Graf Zeppelin and her sister ship were actually going to launch, but when people naively ask 'wat if germoney carrier' they'll say 'the British add another two carriers to the Home Fleet, uh duh you wehraboo idiot'- then you can cause snowball effects pretty readily.
What do you mean here exactly? It's a bit hard to follow your thoughts.
126fbe No.579873
>>579658
>>579659
>>579663
>>579664
>tfw you put this much autism into four posts and no replies
23eec8 No.579879
>>579873
Must be sad to have only autistic arguing on the internet as the sole content of one's life.
791add No.579885
>>579879
>Must be sad to have only autistic arguing on the internet as the sole content of one's life.
I’m sure the burger has more than autism in his life. Like eating, and sitting, and paying Israel :^)
95ddee No.579894
>>546422
>>549306
>>569894
>>569912
I'm surprised it's only 4 images out of 305 are Wiesel considering it's the cutest tank that has ever been made.
>tfw its so civilian-ownership friendly that internals are built with off the shelf parts
>tfw a mercedes center can fix any problem
7f58aa No.579954
>>579873
It's a slow board and a slow thread, I don't mind if it takes a while for an interested party to read over and reply to it. You could at least read over it yourself if you'll take the time to quote & reply. I value constructive input no matter the source.
>>579885
Now, in spite of what I just said, listen, I don't have to take these bants from a peasant under the bastard cadet line of the Castro dynasty. At least when I pretend to be free it's underscored by isolated hives of hooping groids & two clear factions of dynastic political liars, and not naked, hooting mobs of Chinese and Somalis dragging leafposters into the darkened halls of El Trudeau's burned-out manse somewhere in the ashen Canadian wilderness, the rulership a fivefold great black monolith of what seem to be only nominally disagreeing political liars. Or more than usual. Honestly, at this point I'm starting to think of Canada as a realm of Ravenloft (that one D&D setting where everything is a pocket dimension of Hammer Horror and sucks royally) with slightly more sun. Think about it.
>ruled by an irredeemable devil of a once-man- and even that is in doubt- who is forever cursed in some ironic fashion (Trudeau, alleged French descended but Quebec sceptic, son of Castro and arch-cuckold, born of the cuck, made man by the cuck, undone by the cuck)
>deeply repressed rural folk (increasing degree of nofuns regulation ahead of her neighbor, antirural biases in government attention from what I've heard)
>cities are a different clade of equal if not greater repression, where the eye of the realms' lord is ever watchful (librul urban populace, increasing decay of the city and the law)
>degenerate factionalist aristocracy, but they all hold in common that they hate you (literally all parties with seats are a flavor of social democrat or otherwise liberal with different flavors of regressive policies as I recall)
>pseudohumans that hunt and devour the peasantry after nightfall and even in broad daylight, supported as useful tools by the bleak sovereign of the cursed realm (POCs, diversity is our strength)
>strange gypsie folk on the outskirts of civilization who are generally some measure of trouble for any who come into contact with them (reserve Indians)
>oppressed subnation on the inside with mutual hatred all around; one of the prime objects of ironic curse (Quebec)
>exists in deadlock with everyone around it, can't accomplish anything substantial, failure is inevitable per ironic curse (cut-down military, dysfunctional on the world stage, but who isn't these days)
>incessantly trumpets her feeble glories and shrieks at her rivals (leafposting)
>bordered by an almost identically hellish realm differing only in details and degrees (USA USA USA USA)
>half the country is on fire (half the country is on fire)
I guess that, keeping on-topic, it's good that Canada at least had the sense to keep its hundred strong fleet of Leopard 2s on hand instead of going all in on the Stryker meme? Not that I don't like the idea of sticking maximal gun on minimal chassis, I really like that kind of exploitation, it's just that by my minimal knowledge the Stryker has some particular brain problems, though I couldn't really name any. 'No integral AC' is a standout on brushing up. Any anons want to fill me in on what the deal is here? Cooling vests for the crew, how boondoggle is this thing? There's no citation on them being upgraded with AC on the wiki, either, it just says they were upgraded 'recently.'
7f58aa No.579955
>>579954
>>579894
Sort of segueing from the Stryker 'minimum chassis' point in the previous post, why is it that tankettes never made a comeback once they became potentially useful? The Wiesel seems to be the only one that stuck around, and there were few others. Sticking a medium/heavy anti-tank launcher or a good autocannon onto the minimum chassis possible, airlift capacity or no, seems like it'd be quite advantageous for increasing the hardness of mobile infantry forces. Better on the roll than having the weapons stowed on a non-combat carrier, more easily concealable than a larger carrier, grants the crew protection and access to some basic countermeasures like ready smoke launchers. If there's enough greenery around or you've got a rise in the land & enough shovels to dig a tankette-sized trench out it isn't much more obvious if emplaced than a tripod launcher would be.
As far as AFVs go, it seems a better option than, say, a Humvee or other bloated battle taxi that doesn't quite do either job as best as it could. Not that you shouldn't stick some gun on those, as much gun as you can spare as in anything, but having minimum gun carriers where you don't need taxi capacity but do need a smaller, better-defended target with good fire control is a good idea in my book. The only problem is if you actually go down to Wiesel size is that you might have wanting ammo capacity, but stretch a little bigger and you can get a little more in there if for some reason you want to edge in on IFV territory without the I part.
96a15a No.579976
>>579954
>You could at least read over it yourself if you'll take the time to quote & reply.
Implying I didn’t. I just am not that autistic about tonks, so you lost me within the first few sentences becuse I like looking at tonks and know some names but have no technical knowledge. So I felt bad for you for writing all that and not getting any discussion going.
>It's a slow board and a slow thread
I’ve been noticing /k/ is slower than /r9k/ recently, have we lost that many streloks?
>>579954
>Honestly, at this point I'm starting to think of Canada as a realm of Ravenloft (that one D&D setting where everything is a pocket dimension of Hammer Horror and sucks royally) with slightly more sun. Think about it
I’ve only just started a campaign with some casual acquaintances and none of us know what we’re really doing yet. Plus we’ve only gotten like 3 sessions in over the last 3-4 months. So not sure what you’re talking about.
4615de No.579983
>>579976
>I’ve been noticing /k/ is slower than /r9k/ recently, have we lost that many streloks?
It's getting close to summer, there's one or two no fun allowed faggots running around the board, and 8chan in general is going down the shitter. It's just the way things are going at the moment. Whether or not things will improve for /k/ is hard to tell.
7f58aa No.580022
>>579976
The ultra tl;dr is that the Germans sat on their asses throughout the beginning of the war because the Waffenamt are lazy overconservative bastards that Hitler didn't bully enough until it was too late among other problems, and getting scared out of their britches by the fact that the Soviets had more than just trash (T-26, T-35, T-60, basically all the interwar tardtonks and coffins for two) in the form of trash with some staying power (T-34, KV-1) fucked over their mindset into one of constantly planning ahead for shit that did not real, because as it turns out the Soviets still couldn't into tanks even after they got their shit going. And so they built tanks that were silly levels of heavy compared to everyone else while jumping around between project cancellation after cancellation, with basic concepts or individual parts harvested by other projects or revisited postwar.
Another example of this; the VK 16.02 Leopard was basically a super-Luchs or else a revisit of the Panzer II J, made initially by MAN, then farmed out to MIAG and Daimler-Benz to finish. Verged around 20 tons, was maybe a little undergunned with a 5cm cannon but was par for a scout. Maybe could've fit an L48 75mm with a bigger turret/ring and the application of the 88mm Schmalturm developed for the Panther, making it par with the Panzer IV although not as combat-capable because that turret might end up two-man. Designed as a 'combat scout, it was drafted at both 18 tons and 26 tons, was predictably selected at 26 by Hitler so it could get bashed up and survive in the East, before Speer effectively killed it by saying 'well the Panther can totally do its own combat scouting and this is just a midget version, why do we need this?' The Panther's final drive laughed and then ground itself to death as the front torsion bars snapped like chicken bones. This from the same man who complained postwar 'ugh Hitler makes things too heavy, he bloated the Tiger and Panther, also I was resistant at the end and totally going to poison the Fuhrerbunker with cyanide I swear,' mind. Cancelling a relatively modest purpose-built scout to shove the duty off on the MBTs. Cunt.
The VK 16 got a final lightening to 21.9 tons, and then was cancelled as 'not meeting the necessities of '43 or '44 even as a scout tank.' The VK 28.01 multipurpose tank project then tried to shoulder that 'combat scout' weight along with perhaps a half dozen other roles from June '43 and also died in '44, because it was projected to reach production only in April '45, somehow. They can shit the Panther out in draft from some time in '42 and completed by March, get her in mild steel by September, and get her fucked-up bastard preproduction units out in December, but the more conservative Leopard is developed from January '42 and never even hits mild steel? The 28.01 from '43 needs two years to reach production when it's not too different in hull concept or dimensions from the Leopard or the original sloped Panzer IV H and in fact uses the Panzer IV turret with a Panther style cupola? You can't say it was the drafted weight changes, because the Panther uparmoring created a slew of fucked-up mechanical problems and it reached production in no time by bulldozing past half and leaving the rest. There's something to be said for the relative priority between these projects, sure, but even then it's just odd.
The only tangible thing that came out of the Leopard fiasco was the Schmal-looking 5cm turret seemingly derived from the VK 30.02 DB turret concept (and Daimler-Benz was in charge of turret design for the Leopard) which was possibly also intended as an upgrade for the Panzer II, but only ended up getting put onto the Puma heavy scout car after a redesign to make the side slope less steep. Interestingly, this was a three-man turret, or at least 2.5 man, as the crew consisted of 'a driver, a commander, a gunner, and a loader who was also the radio operator.' The fact it could have been fit onto a relatively wide range of vehicles for both new production and retrofit, along with those other mentioned bits like the Panzer IV and Panther sharing a turret ring diameter, indicates the sheer level of frankentank interchangeability the Germans were potentially sitting on with some butterflies, some wiggle room on weight and some more proactive thinking.
>I’ve only just started a campaign
>not sure what you’re talking about.
THE LEAF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenloft
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ravenloft
tl;dr it's a patchwork of ironic hells for bad dudes. I am insinuating that Canada is a shithole on the order of Bram Stoker's depiction of Transylvania, except with more cuckposting. Now that I've killed the joke by explaining it, you can proceed to groan disgruntledly.
4f0af9 No.580091
>>579658
>>579659
>>579663
>>579664
>Making Tigers, Panthers or Maus in the first place
>Putting any focus on "Wunderweapons" at all
Just no. German Tank design should have in big bold letters NO TANKS OVER 40 TONS! before they get to the drawing board, especially when Germany really hasn't heard of logistics before. People downright forget that whenever Germans went on the offensive with Tiger and Panther Tanks the end result was nothing short of unmitigated disaster and instead hinge the reputation of such vehicles when they were fighting defensively which any retarded toddler could do and appear great at doing so..
You cannot fix German Tanks without first fixing German logistics. That means no 6 gorillion different variations of guns and Tanks that can't share any ammunition or parts with each other. No Tanks that are next to impossible to move to the frontlines without exstensive railway networks and above all no Tanks that can't even cross bridges. In fact all they should have is really the Stug III and Panzer IV. They definitely need something equivalent to the Bren Carrier like you said which is by far the most underrated vehicle of WW2. What is more important though is they need trucks. Lots and lots of trucks. Without trucks you do not have reliable logistics. Germany only had something like 150,000-200,000 trucks and supply vehicles in WW2 which is nowhere near enough to ensure adequate supply of your armed forces. For reference UK had around 1million trucks alone, US had around 2million and the USSR had 2million which wasn't considered anywhere near enough
I am amazed Germany managed to last as long as they did in WW2. By all rights their army should not have functioned at all.
23eec8 No.580095
>>580091
>If you don't have the resources, industrial capacity and manpower of the allies and immunity from bombing, you are bad at logistics.
No wonder you'll be a mcdonalds burger flipper for the rest of your life.
4f0af9 No.580114
>>580095
>Make 6 gorillion variations of ammunition types, equipment, components, even uniforms that share absolutely nothing in common with each other
>Don't even bother to try and standardise anything until very very late in the war
>Don't actually bother pouring resources into setting up a proper supply network cause you'll be totally near a railway and horses can totally keep your army fed
>The vast majority of these issues could have been resolved prewar
The eternal Kraut everyone. Do you think that WW2 started in 1944 or something? That's the only way you could be this retarded.
41a79f No.580146
>>580114
>The vast majority of these issues could have been resolved prewar
What is Treaty of Versailles?
Germany didn’t have very long to re-arm and modernize. Even the secret testing in the USSR wasn’t modern at the time. Germany was not ready for WWII in ‘39, probably because Hitler didn’t expect Stalin to Jew him, and didn’t expect the allies to ignore Soviet expansion.
ebeb28 No.580155
>>580146
>What is Treaty of Versailles?
It didn't force the Krauts to have no parts commonality and dozens of calibers, and it doesn't change the fact that the Germs didn't even try to set up a competent logistics chain until it was far too late.
>Germany didn’t have very long to re-arm and modernize
Again, it's not how long it took them to modernize, it's the ass-backwards way in which they chose to do so.
>probably because Hitler didn’t expect Stalin to Jew him, and didn’t expect the allies to ignore Soviet expansion.
Hitler and his advisors are legit retards if they didn't at least consider these possibilities.
9c5588 No.580156
>>580091
>lol look at these dumb Germans who didn't just use their unlimited supply of American steel and Canadian factories to spam obsolete interwar tanks, and then supply them with a million American-made trucks
>you mentioned the Panther so I'm going to ignore the entire remainder of your four posts and make up some stupid strawman about how the other guy wanted more superheavies
>bitching about lack of standardization in Germany when the anglos couldn't even agree on a standard MG cartridge, had four incompatible 3" guns in service simultaneously, and fielded half a dozen different medium tanks that had little to no parts compatibility until 1944… all without having to deal with inter-service rivalry, competing contractors, foreign factories that may or may not produce parts to German rather than Czech or French standards, and bombing raids that occasionally shut down a vital factory for months
4f0af9 No.580178
>>580146
>What is Treaty of Versailles?
A piece of toilet paper Germany was actively ignoring by the early 30's?
All other points this fag covers >>580155 They had plenty of time to prepare. They even had the Spanish Civil War to "test" shit out. If they are dicking around at this stage then they've set themselves up for failure, which is pretty much what they did.
>>580156
What the hell are you even mouthbreathing about?
d062cd No.580179
I see the Wehraboos are out in force today.
d89475 No.580208
>>580114
>Do you think that WW2 started in 1944 or something?
Germany only went to a total war economy in 1943 after Stalingrad so yes, in many ways the industrial war for Germany started very late. This is of course utterly retarded but that's the traditional 'great at tactics, terrible at strategy' German flaw for you. It's all down to the Prussian and believe me from 1871-1943 the German military was mostly Prussian at least in style knack for teaching officers to use their own initiative rather than big picture thinking and big plan obedience.
7f58aa No.580210
>>580091
>NO TANKS OVER 40 TONS!
No. The enemy will themselves build up to that level and beyond, and that absolutely cannot be allowed to happen before counters are available. If the enemy has both the mass tooling advantage and the advantage in on-field tonnage, armor & guns, Germany's fucked if she isn't dealing with early war incompetence (as she did) or is otherwise on a serious operational roll. Parity needs to be achieved as early as possible, and then Germany has to move further beyond that into superiority.
The mindset that Hitler & company had on realizing the problem was correct, the problem as stated was that they tripped over themselves trying to jump two steps ahead at a time and killing projects only to return to the same concepts later, either by convergence or conscious realization that they still need that thing, and that they didn't realize the problem earlier and strive to correct it or even realize ahead of time in paranoia that war was inevitable within the decade if not half-decade of their rise to power, no matter their policy. Plus key bad choices, like, again, the MANther in a compromised 'we can rush to production with the Rheinmetall turret!' over the DB Panther, which needed time for the turret to be drafted in detail but assuredly would've come as quickly as the continually delayed MANther if not earlier.
>You cannot fix German Tanks without first fixing German logistics.
That's what a third or half or somewhere thereabouts the tl;dr was, though more on procurement, production & mechanical servicing than in-field supply. Explicit points include; 'don't select suspension with no legs,' 'don't build the near identical Panzer III & IV in parallel,' 'unify mass production turret ring diameter,' 'fix transmission serviceability,' 'don't forget you have good shit early,' 'don't have two long 75mm cartidges and a third extra long 75mm cartridge,' 'incessantly incrementally upgrade,' 'get frankentank semi-parts unification,' and so on.
>no Tanks that are next to impossible to move to the frontlines without exstensive railway networks
-in significant enough numbers to be a problem, but where the railways are present they are and will remain useful, therefore they should be built as industry allows to press limits and to maintain a qualitative advantage for key formations at key points on the front. Furthermore, already addressed were the key problems to eliminate to avoid OTL troubles, namely; not rushing the dev cycles, constructing telescoped designs like a production VK 36.01 H preceding a production Tiger I, not making concept contrary cost-saving measures that compromise mechanical reliability for a phantom production or tooling-up benefit, focus on ensuring greater serviceability, better power to weight ratio, diesel engines from wherever you can get them if possible, and not cancelling telescoping weight classes to jump straight to the biggest of big boys.
The Panther with some mechanical amendments is useful. It's a proto-MBT and little more needs to be said. The Tiger I, with the long 88 as intended, is useful as a battlefield superiority weapon and the best-in-class for heavy tanks in every way but offensive operational time, which may be able to be ammended. The Lowe is useful. It's a super-IS2 and Tiger II in one package, and the trouble of deploying it away from heavy logistics isn't too meaningful when the places you want to use it are limited and likely close to said heavy logistics anyways. Even the Maus, final version or its preceding drafts, has a purpose as fortress busters and propaganda tool, as well as a means to push the limit. As they are useful, they will be produced, even if dwarfed in number (until very late) by Panzer I, II, III/IV, and VK 30 DB chassis types.
7f58aa No.580211
>>580210
>In fact all they should have is really the Stug III and Panzer IV.
No. These workhorses are great, and they should be in a victory scenario devised or an equivalent devised earlier than OTL, but laurel-resting and Waffenamt conservatism is precisely what fucked the Germans pre and mid-Barbarossa, and post-Barbarossa resulted in their panicked gigantism. Therefore, development should on the one hand continue on lighter vehicle classes & chassis to make the best use of that still existing tooling, and on the other continue telescoping upwards in scale, even to the same silly or unrealistic scales, because it is useful to acquire the engineering know-how to make eighty tons of specialty role steel rumble onto the front, innovations from which can then be back-applied to vehicles lower on the weight rung.
We will not have the wonderful surprise of a new Soviet heavy or superheavy rollout cause headaches down the line in the form of an IS-2 or KV-3 or whatever else; the Germans need a qualitative gap to their advantage and they need to keep it, at the expense of tonnage as necessary. As history proved, fire control efficiency and encirclement goes a really long way, but not far enough with a below par gun and attrition from damage by enemy guns. Therefore, bloat the weight classes as the years go on and as technology allows without problems. If the Soviets pull some German-style gigantism mindset out, the risk is narrow but present that they will have more tactical or operational success than the Germans did, in spite of their 30-to-50 ton vehicles being about as unreliable as totally maintenance deprived 50-to-70 ton German ones. So ten tons to twenty, twenty to thirty, thirty to forty, forty to fifty, so on, with some bigger leaps here and there.
>What is more important though is they need trucks.
Agreed, and the way to do this is to reserve and use the right to launch a state project to force unification of truck design to one 'best' and ruggedly standard template design for all the automotive companies to move forward from, while perhaps doing the same with halftracks (if you don't just skip them for fully tracked carriers) but this is irrelevant to the AFV production & rationalization train of discussion; they also need a twin-engine escort/airfield bouncing fighter, a good four engine bomber regardless of two or four prop count, less battleships in total laid down & more of them completed alongside heavy cruisers, aircraft carriers and subs, but as those are irrelevant to this specific thread and line of questions, you don't see me mentioning them. Furthermore, I don't think they need quite so many trucks as they need tracked carriers which WERE relevant and mentioned, and these especially in the East. Rubber is expensive and scarce; cheaply alloyed and light but for the weight & component class rugged steel tracks are cheap as dirt, and Germany absolutely will not run out of poor-quality non-armor/arsenal steel to vomit at projects once she really gets tooled up (some trouble before then, as the Germans had to juggle production around as) it's the alloyed steels that are the real bottleneck.
7f58aa No.580212
>>580211
Jesus H. Christ I need to work on brevity.
>I am amazed Germany managed to last as long as they did in WW2. By all rights their army should not have functioned at all.
Early operational & tactical brilliance, elan and the dysfunction of the enemy are a hell of a drug, as is sheer refusal to lose once the former and latter parts start drying up. Butterflies being as they are, the hump of victory isn't as hard as people think to get over or at least on top of, seeing how close they got to doing in Moscow and thus potentially domino effecting the entire Soviet war effort with an Operation Eisenhammer or a thorough railway bombing. Or how close the Bismarck was to not receiving a fluke rudder torpedo hit, or her and Tirpitz slipping out as a duo and earlier than OTL, thus being undetected by the HSwMS Gotland to engage in more successful North Atlantic surface raiding that ties up the Home Fleet in trying to hunt them, rather than getting screwed because of the former going out with the slow Prinz Eugen while the latter is left in port to continue working up, in spite of the captain insisting her crew was ready. Or everything to do with a surviving Walther Wever being the silver bullet to unfucking the Luftwaffe in planes and policies. For small arms, you always have the intermediate cartridge being right there for the Germans through the interwar with the GECO cartridge and Vollmer's self-loading rifles, but procurement was abandoned as 'too expensive' on the eve of war, even for preproduction and conceptual testing, before they stick thumb up ass and very slowly fiddle with the Kurz round until they finally get to the MKb 42. Limited war mindsets are ass.
>>580178
He's 'mouthbreathing' about how the Allies don't exactly have room to talk about lack of standardization or procurement mistakes. Pretty much everyone made a lot of the same or similar gaffes as the Axis powers. They just had the sheer materiel advantage and massive production base to brute force through their problems (lend lease is not a 'hell of a drug' as much as a transcendent spiritual journey in making military fuckups not matter) and didn't get continual industrial gutpunches making things that much harder.
>>580208
The key is to meld the two mindsets. 'Here is a big picture. Here is a cell of it for you to paint. Go wild.' But then the officership would be too or not wild enough. This one is too cautious, this one is too aggressive, so on.
4f0af9 No.580330
>>580210
>The enemy will themselves build up to that level and beyond
No they did not. The heaviest the Russians got was 46 Tons roughly the same weight as a Panther with the IS-2 and those were a bitch to move. KV-2 was heavier but that was more Artillery than Tank If you're talking about going heavier than that then it's just asking for trouble. Are you under some delusion the infrastructure of Europe the World was as good as it is today? There's not enough roads let alone bridges that can support vehicles over 40 tons around in the 40's. To this day if you even go over 50 tons for vehicles you're running into severe logistical issues making transporting said vehicles around a massive bitch. Unless German invents Anti-Grav technology you just aren't going to be moving shit about that's over 40 tons without a fuckton of hassle.
>Panther is proto-MBT
It's a Medium Tank that's the same weight as a Heavy Tank without the benefits of a Heavy Tank. For it's weight it's actually badly undergunned and underarmoured. All that would be needed is for them to take the Panzer IV, angle the armour and you've immediately got a Tank equivalent to the Panther that's 20 tons lighter easier said than done but it's something they should have got their asses into making
>Tiger I is the best in it's class
Just no. The Tiger I is nothing but an armoured pillbox for the 88mm. Everything else about it is trash. The most successful Heavy Tank of the Second World War was the Churchill which funny enough beat the Tiger I in every engagement they faced off in. It was better protected and far more mobile meaning it could go places few other Tanks could go.
>>580211
>Don't focus on workhorse designs
I'm simplifying this point here but you know that 5 Tanks are better than one right? Stug III's were also one of their most effective combat vehicles right? A single Tank can quickly be overwhelmed but a platoon makes a far more solid line of defence. When you are badly behind in both quality and quantity try to get something that is decent quality and can be made quickly. Better to be just outnumbered than retardedly outnumbered.
>We will not have the wonderful surprise of a new Soviet heavy or superheavy rollout cause headaches down the line in the form of an IS-2 or KV-3 or whatever else
You are aware that the Soviet Heavies were a lot lighter than the German Heavies right? Granted they were nowhere as well constructed but they weren't going full retard trying to create 70 ton monstrocities and hoped that reality would bend and they could magic the Tanks to the frontline? In fact only the UK and USA were batshit insane enough to build Tanks over 70 tons which they never deployed for good reason.
Long story short here Germany should have made a Tank in the 30-40 ton range that should have been a heavily upgraded Panzer IV rather than go full retard and make Tanks that were in the 50 ton+ range that had worse performance than Tanks 10 tons lighter.
>>580212
>Allies don't exactly have room to talk about lack of standardization or procurement mistakes
While there is some truth to this I take it fags love to ignore that both the UK and USSR had standardised a lot of munitions to the point that AT Gun crews and Tank crews could share ammunition; reduced complexity of vehicles they were building so they could be fixed using spare parts from civilian trucks and tractors and actively trying to simplify their supply chain and all this was done before the Burgers entered the war and a lot of this shit was even done before the war started? Okay then. If anyone is butthurt cause Germans were too retarded to even attempt this even when the going was good for them then and only ever seemed to try and make things worse for themselves then you really need to fucking leave. Still not as bad as Itals and Nips trying to change service cartridge in a middle of war
7f58aa No.580388
>>580330
>No they did not.
In draft, they did. Take those KV project outside of those that were just the KV-1 with a fresh turret or engine or minor hull revisions, or the various IS tanks developed through the midwar though not mass produced; they had their own would-be Tiger killers & weighty equivalents. And Soviet tank weight is deceptive because they are built as hideously cramped as possible. With the butterflies of earlier, heavier, and better German tanks, it is not unlikely at all that the Soviet heavy boondoggles will find themselves built in steel en masse, even if the prototypes still get initially panic-scrapped.
Now, that these vehicles born of panicked gigantism will be a similarly spotty idea if not a worse one for the Soviets than it was for the Germans is almost a given, but we know precisely how things went in Barbarossa when the T-34 and far moreso the KV could act with impunity; very badly. Plant one on a bridge, and the advance is held back for hours, a day, two. This is serious timetable damage. The fact the enemy could build to parity with your weight & quality or past it means that you have to build ahead of them, no negotiating it. The mistake the Germans made was realizing this far too late when France and Britain had already shown them the trouble the Char B1 and Matilda could cause.
>It's a Medium Tank that's the same weight as a Heavy Tank without the benefits of a Heavy Tank.
Hence 'mechanical amendments,' and the stipulation in the timeline of shunting its production off until it could be refined, putting the Daimler-Benz Panther in its place as the 42-43 medium tank project of choice. The weight isn't even damning, it's the very particular final drive and front torsion bars acting in concert with them that cause the problem; just stick to the original plan of using the Tiger I's transmission and expand its production to match the demand, while amending the torsion bars' strength at the same time as the front glacis thickness increases. Even with her problems, the Panther is a lovely vehicle, and the only design choice unrelated to mass production woes that irks me is the lack of an unmagnified unity sight.
>actually badly undergunned
Last I checked the 75mm went through most anything like butter, having just a little trouble with the IS-2. But good luck to the IS-2 crew actually acquiring and hitting target with their ridiculous turreted field gun against anyone but the ill positioned green crews, which to be fair there are a lot of at that point. Regardless, this is quite fixable through the use of the Daimler-Benz 88mm Schmalturm, and if as in the timeline proposed Daimler-Benz doesn't get the stick and gets the production contract, that means their flat narrow-faced turret designs are going to go through years earlier, and so you'd plausibly see MANthers with 88mm guns by '44 rather than see the drafts in January '45.
>and underarmoured
Only on the sides, as is par for a medium tank. I'm sure you'll say, 'then why thicken the sides at all?' and the answer is, 'because you don't want to get trivially fucked up by autocannons or light AT.' The Panther fit a comfortable ground as side armor goes, though I think the Panther II armor layout plus suspension provisions more suiting to the weight would do her far more good, hence my extolling exactly that as the ideal proceed from MAN versus the attempt to produce her as a 'medium' at 45 tons. If she's going to be a middle ground, she should be designed as one with full consciousness of the fact.
>All that would be needed is for them to take the Panzer IV, angle the armour and you've immediately got a Tank equivalent to the Panther that's 20 tons lighter
Except for the modestly inferior side armor, inferior gun, paper thin turret, and the fact that 'angling the armor' per OTL suspension strength meant dropping glacis plate thickness to 50mm, making it as potentially vulnerable to overmatch effect as the T-34, and it'd still be too heavy to bear the weight at that point. Hence, they kept the flat 80mm plate and called it good. Nevermind that this was already addressed above with the 'incremental upgrades' point. But even if you can get a 50mm+ angled plate, a simplified facing 80mm turret with a new cupola, and amend the front leaf springs enough that it doesn't nose itself to death, it still might not be enough in the end if the enemy accelerates their own retrofits or adopts a qualitatively par vehicle once it appears that the already horrible casualty margins have gotten bad enough to shift towards survivability. If the war protracts or has a continuation, and it most probably will, you're going to want the wiggle room you've got on the Panther. Even the purely historical, ridiculously troubled Panther.
7f58aa No.580390
>>580388
>The Tiger I is nothing but an armoured pillbox for the 88mm.
Beside being a perfectly good breakthrough tank that's quite fast and mechanically rugged in spite of low operational time (gas guzzler) which isn't necessarily a problem when its job is to bust the lines open for exploitation vehicles to get on through, but became one because of operational weaknesses? No, of course. It's just a pillbox, inherently. 'German unreliability' is, outside the poor Panther, a meme spouted by those who don't understand the shortage of parts and servicing, this the result of a large number of factors that are not the gigantism in design. Slope her armor and get enough wiggle room in the turret for the long 88, she's golden. Nothing else is wrong as-designed beside the bastard turret ring & undergunning and the fuel-limited role. But that's why they should have gone for the VK 36 style chassis the Tiger I was derived from first, get something less ambitious and glitchy out first, then follow on with the true big cat with some extra refinement.
>The most successful Heavy Tank of the Second World War was the Churchill
The Churchill was good. Functional enough. Served its role as a slow-moving gun position and breakthrough vehicle, and not much else by design. But wouldn't be shit outside the deprived environments- of good AT weapons or tanks, that is- that it operated in. The notion that that undergunned railcar on tracks is going to be superior to a Tiger I with the Tiger II's gun and maybe more operational legs if you can squeeze some extra fuel in there is nonsense. As for the Churchill winning out over the Tiger 'in every engagement,' I won't comment one way or other save that the claim is fishy and seems like it'd be reliant on manipulated anecdotes regarding their being in the same operational areas where the Germans are rolled back without the two actually clashing to fluff the numbers.
>Don't focus on workhorse designs
You're putting words in my mouth and I'm actually a little insulted. Repeatedly I've stated the need for the Germans to get into the 20-30 and then 30-40 ton range earlier than OTL, and to get good, telescoped development lines in that class, particularly by not compromising the suspension strength of the Panzer IV by rushing the prototypes & early production out with leaf springs and never changing over to torsion bars. Those are the most important classes of vehicle. What I have said is that non-workhorse vehicles must not be ignored, or neglected, as the envelope must continually be pushed. Five tanks are better than one, until those five tanks can't do a god damn thing to a house-sized speedbump that can swat them like gnats if it ever stops being blind, deaf and dumb long enough to do so. See the Panzer I-II and Czechnology hordes vs the KV-1 again, with honorable mention to the limited number of Panzer III & IVs in the mix. Three or four tanks that can turn that house into scrap metal at standoff range- whether they're smaller or bigger than the original house tank- are superior to the five that can do nothing. They're also superior to the five enemy tanks that are going to get slapped down at standoff or deflect off the armor even in relative close, just as long as you don't put your steppe tanks in bocage country. Never put a steppe tank in bocage country. Put your Panzer III/IV style stumpy bastards and combat recon in there to wheedle around with their Sherman counterparts instead.
>Better to be just outnumbered than retardedly outnumbered.
Better to not be effectively outnumbered at all by investing ahead into the survival of your AFVs, and never to let the enemy gain par with you. If the Germans get up to a slightly better Panzer IV and in better numbers than OTL (and not radically better, as you might get in the 'didn't fuck up suspension choice' scenario by giving it the T-34/85 treatment and sticking an L/70 turret on, which still isn't quite good enough to carry the war on its own) and then hamstring themselves by stopping development there, you're just going to see the Pershing successfully argued for and arriving in numbers in Europe alongside or instead of the Sherman where it will clean house, and the IS-2 popping tops with impunity because nothing can tangle with it without being side-on or at close range, instead of being thoroughly threatened by the Tiger I & Panther in a maneuver battle and nearing T-34 tier dead meat for the long 88 or anything bigger, since it has all the same crampedness problems, bad FCE and a big ol' shot trapped turret ring to skip shells into.
>You are aware that the Soviet Heavies were a lot lighter than the German Heavies right?
By constraining & compromising the quality of fighting space and crew comfort, yes, they shaved weight. They were also far worse in the undergunning department with the KV-1 and its 76mm medium tank popgun, or in the case of the IS-2 managed to overgun themselves to the point of absurdity.
7f58aa No.580391
>>580390
>but they weren't going full retard trying to create 70 ton monstrocities
Again, wrong. KV-3, KV-4, KV-5, IS-4. 64, 60, 100, and 60 tons respectively. Honorable mention to the IS-3, which although clocking in at a similar 45-50ish ton weight to the IS-2, has a transmission that tears itself to pieces or if I'm not misremembering physically rattles and dismounts itself as if the vehicle were thirty tons heavier. The first of these three were scrapped and died as projects at various points in 1941 but could easily have been kept on and produced in desperation if the two key Soviet designs- T-34, KV- aren't just good enough to be kept largely as-is for tooling advantages but have to be seriously amended or replaced midwar after all, while the IS-4 was developed from '43 onwards and had a decent chance at being crash-developed and produced in wartime if the Germans had nastier things to show earlier. Therefore, they must be reacted to.
Even without these specific vehicles to cite, the sheer tooling and materiel advantages of the enemy means the Germans need to frontload tonnage, get ahead of the curve and stay there, as reaching a certain weight class and stopping dead is just asking for the enemy to leverage their resources to both outnumber and outgun you all at once, even if hamstringed by their own conservatisms. Only serious though plausible foresight in development can prevent that. Build ahead of your needs, push the limits of what you can mechanically support. Even if that means that you'll produce a thousand 80 ton barnhouse-sized turreted effective assault guns in the learning process, which wouldn't be the best in standard roles; that's not what they're there for. The 20-40 ton workhorses are there for that and for filling in where they must. The heavier vehicles are for battlefield superiority and breakthrough operations. The problem isn't that they followed this mindset, it's that they followed it too late and tripped over themselves overpursuing it.
>magic the Tanks to the frontline?
Railways exist. Separated turret & body loads exist. While these limit where you can stick them initially, fix the trouble at far ends of the front through the better than OTL workhorses so the big boys don't have to be shuttled around incessantly as firefighters and their operational troubles disappear, and they can be used to their utmost as spearheads of major operations in areas where major logistics exist to service them and as blunting shields in counter-operations. Further gains can be made by getting a better power/weight ratio, better parts availability, and components purpose-designed or amended for the weight classes reached.
>in fact only the UK and USA were batshit insane enough to build Tanks over 70 tons which they never deployed for good reason.
They didn't deploy them because the Battle of the Bulge gaff made them unnecessary. Before that outburst and the weakness it created, I recall the Allies were not confident about getting over the Rhine anytime soon, not until Spring at the earliest, and the big Anglo-American assault tanks & guns you're speaking of were designed with directly, frontally breaching the Siegfried Line in mind. The exact kind of heavy assault role I think, say, the Löwe at an eighty ton draft and with some more development to its armor angles would be perfectly suited for. It's not a nonexistent role, it's a role that was bypassed by circumstance.
>Long story short here Germany should have made a Tank in the 30-40 ton range that should have been a heavily upgraded Panzer IV
No. Absolutely not. The Panzer IV chassis simply does not have enough in her in suspension or otherwise to go above 30 tons- if she can even get to 30- even if you give her better suspension, she does not have that kind of leg to shake. A '30-40 ton Panzer IV' will be practically a new tank entirely. To get in that weight range with projects developed but not deployed, you need the VK 30 DB and/or the VK 30/36 H, which are longer chassis with stronger suspensions and fresher designs in general with a higher design weight in mind, and the 30/36 are visibly descendant from the Panzer IV; the preceding Durchbruchswagen projects were after all just really, really fat Panzer III/IVs meant to smash into the Maginot. And though these designs could last through '45, and if the war somehow manages to really drag on could still serve reasonably well through '46-47 in the same way the Panzer IV did, they would cease to be the premier within a year or two as the enemy scrambles to catch up. You can never stop developing more and better, heavier and leaner about how you use that heaviness.
7f58aa No.580392
>>580391
>rather than go full retard and make Tanks that were in the 50 ton+ range
Constructed in the well-reasoned though incorrect notion that the enemy would outstrip Germany in max on-field tonnage per tank again, as their resources would allow though they did not pursue such lines with the abandon expected.
>that had worse performance than Tanks 10 tons lighter.
Thanks to a compromised production rush for the Panther, short legs on the Tiger, and a general lack of spare parts & maintenance all around regardless of weight class.
>fags love to ignore that both the UK and USSR had standardised a lot of munitions to the point that AT Gun crews and Tank crews could share ammunition
No, that's a good point for them where it does apply and one that boggles the mind as to why the Germans didn't do the same in certain places like by getting one PaK 40 capacity necked cartridge for both the 75mm AT and tank guns, rather than having a long unnecked AT cartridge for God knows what reason and a short necked tank cartridge for dubious handling benefits. And yet as 9c5588 originally cited, the British had multiple totally incompatible 3-inch guns; the US ammo using Ordnance QF 75 mm was not compatible with the Ordnance QF 3-inch howitzer, which was not compatible with the Ordnance QF 17-pounder, which was itself not compatible with the 77 mm HV gun, which used not the same cartridge but a necked-down version of the QF 3-inch 20 cwt AA gun cartridge. This is exactly as dysfunctional if not more than the German shell problems, the Allies were simply capable of brute forcing through their own logistical teething problems while the Germans had to cut down to the bone in efficiency to avoid such problems, and did not manage to do so.
As far as fuckups on the procurement end; see everything about the US 90mm gun and its being kept fervently, fanatically away from being used or even tested in any AT role, because reasons. That one always really sticks out to me. 'No, it's an AA gun! The Krauts are retards for killing us with theirs, we aren't copying them, that's final. Short 75s are all we need. Alright, fuck off, the 76 is all you'll need.' Though the 76 at least was procured in advance of any known or perceived threat it would have to penetrate and not as a response to the Tiger in spite of what people think, and in spite of turning out to be not great, though good enough.
7f58aa No.580393
>>580392
Last one, I swear.
>reduced complexity of vehicles they were building so they could be fixed using spare parts from civilian trucks and tractors
Cite a vehicle- a fighting one- that actually, definitely used civilian truck or tractor components that wasn't a direct derivation from them ala the off-the-shelf part chimaera Willys MB/Ford GPW Jeep or various logistic trucks. If there is or are such AFVs- maybe the Bren carrier if I had to guess, it was based on the Carden-Lloyd but maybe they hybridized it? American half tracks, which only half-count as derived what with the back end?- fine, but the way you're phrasing this sounds like a canard in the vein of 'muh Soviet reliability!' And I despise those canards, the same as I despise flat Wehraboos who extoll on-paper virtues in the same way without the very important 'buts' at the end regarding this or that problem or how to rectify them. Not arguing in favor of the weapons in spite of the problems, just ignoring their existence outright.
>Germans were too retarded to even attempt this even when the going was good for them
Victory disease kills. Bizarre R&D conservatism when it's affordable to splurge rather than when it's not also kills.
>and only ever seemed to try and make things worse for themselves
Blame the Waffenamt, the Junker conspirators in the Heer, the social democrats and fairweather defeatists in the Abwehr, and the sheer difficulty of beating the military-industrial complex in the right direction even when you realize where exactly it needs to be beaten, the work for which only properly began in '43 or so.
>Still not as bad as Itals and Nips trying to change service cartridge in a middle of war
Well, they rather tried BEFORE the war, but then the war happened. And when it did they (though that they) had to double back on the change. If anything, they should started earlier and have continued and indeed accelerated the retooling, using up the older materiel first before reserving what was left of it as the new rifles & cartridges came into service. Really, the both of them need to establish themselves as proper totalitarian states pre-war rather than getting derailed by compromises with reactionaries (Italy, March on Rome half-revolution and all that followed) or by the autocrat squashing the group that wants his absolute power restored and the centralization of the state & thralling of the capitalist classes rather than compromising with them for their 'cooperation' (Japan, February 26 incident.) And as noted above, the German half-revolution problem is there too, though harder to see. But that is very questionably relevant to the tank discussion and I'd like to leave it there.
91b781 No.580444
>>580393
>Cite a vehicle- a fighting one- that actually, definitely used civilian truck or tractor components
The Stuart tank was powered by a pair of Cadillac V8s driving Detroit Hydra-Matic transmissions, all off-the-shelf automotive parts. Does that count?
7f58aa No.580446
>>580330
Yes, it most certainly does, and thank you for that. I knew the Stuart was driven by two modest-output engines, but not that they were outright car engines & transmissions, that's actually really neat. I am curious, though, as to why the Stuart was dual-engined even when it was using what would become more prioritized power plants. Just a matter of supply & demand for single engines with the same power as the Continental powerpack arrangement, I suppose? And aren't dual engines usually a bit fiddly, how'd they get them synced with each other and the transmission?
3beca6 No.580454
>>580446
>>580444
You are also forgetting that Chaffee used the same V8 engines and transmissions. Matilda was also powered by two of the engines used in the double Decker bus. The M4A4 Sherman also ran on THREE Chrysler multi bank engines. The M3 lee and M4/M4A1 running on an airplane engine is kinda off the shelf?…
Another thing that I have been meaning to say is that the Krauts did convert some panzer 1s into "munition shleppers" which were pretty much open topped carriers primarily used for armored vehicle resupply.
7f58aa No.580466
>>580454
Consider me as eating crow, then, and recognizing that the Wallies did good work in this regard even if they have no idea how to select tank guns reasonably. Aero engines are an off-the-shelf trick I knew about the Sherman using and referenced in the fat writeup above, and are a wise expedience (although as I recall they tend to run hot and eat fuel without limiting & modifications) but it depends on if the engine was civilian in origin or the result of military development if it fits in the civilian off-shelf class. It's also mildly less of an expedience than using civilian car engines, but not by much. Didn't know about the M4A4's whacky arrangement or the Matilda's engines. How'd they even arrange three Chrysler engines? Pyramid stack, fuel tanks to the sides? Reverse? Or one two-stack and a one stack with fuel in one corner?
>Another thing that I have been meaning to say is that the Krauts did convert some panzer 1s into "munition shleppers"
The irritating part is that they only *converted* them, and only a very small number. Exactly 51 on brushing up. It wasn't even much of a modification; they just took the turret off and put a hatch over the turret ring. No actual rebuilding, and not a particularly serviceable layout for serious logistical hauling, since the turret ring hampers what you can cram in there and the angled hull what you can hitch & tie on. In the same fashion, they never threw together a purpose-built Panzer I or II AT vehicle, just some very Orky tack-on rebuilds. They still had the Panzer I tooling sitting around so you'd think they would've used it for something, or else it wouldn't be very hard to reopen a line. Then again, they wanted to do something similar with the Henschel Hs 123 biplane after it was discovered to be an absurdly rough & tumble plane in the mud and snow, useful in the East as a night harasser, but they'd already deconstructed that tooling and for whatever reason did not try to reopen a line on new tooling, so maybe not.
I am regardless firmly confident in the fact that the Germans would have been very well-served by not abandoning the Panzer I entirely and slowly ceasing to bother with the Panzer II, with both receiving upgunning to increase and maintain their usefulness until they're simply too light for the battle line, at which point they receive new roles.
For the Panzer I that'd happen pretty early, and thereafter it gets the Bren Carrier treatment. Not just popping the turret off, a full rebuild into a multi-compartment carrier. The Germans captured plenty enough British examples in France alone, and used them as all manner of light AT or automatic gun carrier and as remote demolition vehicles through the entire war; it's not a big butterfly at all for them to put two and two together looking at a British tankette conversion and then looking at their own obsolete tankettes, and decide 'maybe this isn't a bad idea?' from the getgo.
7f58aa No.580467
>>580466
Cue Krautschlepper. Might have a better floor/compartment layout than the Bren, might be worse, but as far as providing a development line for fully tracked and fully reliable multirole hauler in 1940 and available in numbers by '41? It's perfect for that virtue alone. Drag guns. Mount guns. Carry troops. Act as fighting position for troops. It may or may not prevent the Raupenschlepper Ost from being developed, but that's a small price to pay for having an equivalent vehicle before Barbarossa even starts, and if initially inferior to the RSO it can always be upgraded to equivalency by Barbarossa; mounting the slightly stronger RSO engines should be a cinch considering the Ausf. F goofy infantry tank had room for a 150 horsepower engine. As a more definite positive, it stands a good chance of sidelining the hideous amalgm of noninterchangeable half-track variants and forcing them to be collectivized & standardized by the state if they're going to remain relevant and thus continue to earn production contracts for their designers/manufacturers, who will be more eager to cooperate under state auspices if it means keeping those lines open. Still gonna want more and better trucks, but having a fully tracked carrier pre-Russia & Africa is a big deal. Maybe the early implementation of the concept can get some form the Kätzchen APC into the fight by '44 at the latest.
Panzer II, as said, just needs more retrofits, upgrades and a properly filled out production line instead of being neglected to the point Germany had proper combat recon vehicles numbering only in the hundreds. Develop from an interwar light battle tank into two lines of combat recon vehicles and infantry fire support platforms, or really one line that fills both roles with multiple weapons. Autocannons in the 2-3.7cm range for raking light positions and demolishing convoys, 5cm HV guns for popping softskins and harrying tanks, maybe a 75mm stubgun M8 Scott style for providing a light assault platform to mechanized troops. I wonder if they'd be able to cram it into a closed turret if they used the DB style Schmalturm design? Stuck as much barrel & breech forward as possible into a pigs' head cast? Mostly I just want to see what a fully turreted German Scott would look like. The closest they got were open casemate cars & halftracks with the stub, but I don't think they ever put it into a turret on a light chassis. The Panzer III N is as close as you get, and she's a good 23 tons of medium support tank, a lot more tank than the 15 ton Scott and almost twice the 12 ton Panzer II Luchs.
cb665b No.580471
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi-germany/panzer-iv-mit-hydrostatischem-antrieb/
Would developing this technology further helped the Krauts?
>>580211
>Rubber is expensive and scarce; cheaply alloyed and light but for the weight & component class rugged steel tracks are cheap as dirt
I wonder, could you take used up car tires and use them to rubberize steel tracks? I mean today, as used car tires are plenty, and the main problem with tracks is that they beat up asphalte roads.
7f58aa No.580473
>>580471
Well, it was at least better for a gradual/gearless or many-geared system than the petrol-electric system, as the article lays out. You can see the space savings made, at least. Maybe if it were developed further, quicker or earlier it might have been more than novelty. I think it might be easier to just get less deficient electric motor suppliers for Porsche's experiments, honestly. Not because that isn't a dead end for mass production until the Germans can get a serious copper supply on hand, largely postwar in other words, but because a big batch of 100+ Porsche Tigers would be a nice thing to shunt somewhere instead of having turretless hulls with a bum drive that end up turning into Ferdinands. Stick 'em in Africa maybe. I suppose the extra credit given to Porsche's weird drive exploration by the petrol-electric having some success could also lead to the hydrostatic drive seeing more interest and reaching some level of production if it's easier and less material heavy than mechanical systems, and can slightly ease the demand for traditional drivetrain engines & components. The sheer amount of new controls added will probably limit its implementation, since although it might be straightforward to use in practice once you know what you're doing the number of pressures to keep track of might be daunting for drivers to qualify on.
df8510 No.580533
>>580473
my hat to you, thats some quality autism about german hardware.
because i want to read more of your ramblings but just cant think of anything creative, how could germany have won against the bongs?
your scenario hs the soviets well and truely fucked between 44/45 so what about the western front and afrika?
also what about pic related, was there a possibility to unfuck the italiens or would they have been a detriment no matter what?
df8510 No.580536
also because there havent been many tanks lately, here is one that can shake your hand.
sage for double posting
7f58aa No.580553
>>580489
Well, the way I got where I am specifically? Let's bullet them.
Play some shitty Ruskie tonk games. Get mad about shitty Ruskie tonk games. Investigate accuracy. Get curious about particular models, look into them in more detail. Read some Panzer-Tracts and other decent sources, avoiding badly curated ones like Achtung Panzer. Have a fixation on what-if scenarios.
Get fixed on the Axis for whatever reason you may have. Go from the usual 'but what if wunderwaffle' shallow reaching breed, to looking at operational & strategic changes, then come full circle into looking at things from a better-informed military procurement standpoint. 'What tool is necessary, for what purpose and at what time? When can it be available without timeline changes and what changes are reasonable?' Same spectra of autism, more varied color palette.
Pick over alternate history summaries, possibly though not necessarily diving into the deeper grutz of them. Look at vehicle-specific breakpoints, through IE a piss easy 'X tonk alternate history' search, which'll generally take you to Alternate History where an autist by the name of Wiking has thoroughly tread this same path of 'what can the Germans/Axis potentially do?' Look rather specifically at one thread that asked something along the lines of, 'What if the Germans were technically two years ahead of OTL with no manual strategic changes?' Answer is as I recall, 'things get pretty touch & go.' Pick over others for Italy and Japan and those relating to better Axis cohesion. The results are good.
Since some things were available in concept draft or physical proof of concept earlier than that number, or might only be plausible a little later even if possible at that time, start moderating the time on things individually and start thinking on amalgamating all these little butterflies into an Axis victory, combining plausible procurement & doctrinal changes to the OOB as well as certain persons not dying or having greater or lesser prominence to crash together a hazy timeline. Then, ramble at other autists in related threads when the relevant subjects come up, because I like making what information I have of use to others.
>>580533
The usual hackneyed answer is 'give Rommel more shit.' And it is, as noted, hackish, but not entirely incorrect. To credibly win Africa, the Axis needs a couple things. It needs to clean up the isles in the Med. It needs to have enough forces to actually break the back of the Allies and at some point snowball on the continent, rather than fencing with them and eventually getting pushed out. They need to be armed enough to compete with the enemy on par materiel terms, rather than having to be obnoxiously clever bastards; in terms of tanks, that means more and better Panzer III/IVs than in OTL, the whole glut of 100 VK 45.01 (P) preproduction models, and lots of motorized supply & gun carriers, the latter of which the DaK manufactured for themselves in the form of Rommel's Funnies when they got saddled with horse & bridle logistics, in fucking Africa. You may draw your own conclusions as to the difficulty of feeding and water half-dozen horse teams to tow your guns in this environment. A Panzer I hauler, Panzer II light assault gun/SPG in the vein of the Su-76 and Guderian's 'light motorized artillery' concept, and the StuG will serve your guns-with-tracks needs. A motorized L/56 88mm gun platform would also be very nice to have, but the Tigers are already fitting that role for armored warfare, so less need for that. Cutting off the Sinai is critical, because it makes things dicey for the British by splitting the eastern and western forces somewhat, and is the gateway to penetrating into the Levant, and from there being able to compete for Iran and have a good staging ground for harassing India or opening a southern front with the USSR.
7f58aa No.580554
>>580553
A separate breakpoint of Italian procurement being better and their not converting to the binary division system is a huge boon, nevermind if they have time, funds and energy to properly reform the army. It needs the Italian navy to be bolder while she can be; a flattop like the Aquila early or prewar would also be nice and potentially prevent Matapan from being a fiasco. The Luftwaffe having its shit generally unfucked is good, but the Regia Aeronautica pulling proportional weight earlier/at all will go a long way to avoiding Allied air supremacy and the troubles that causes. For all this, Italy essentially needs some kind of funding source or sources to grease the wheels of her procurement engine, enabling her to get better small arms, tanks, planes, so on into development and production earlier. That economic grease will also help prevent the catastrophe of being forced into using autarkic materials, as better purchasing power means she might be able to get at more of a reserve; it'd also help if the British don't buy up the whole of Turkey's rare metal production without any actual need for them known, closing that source to the Italian economy.
Alternate History had a nice thread or two on precisely this sort of breakpoint, and glosses over the not so possible 'Libyan Oil' resort for the exploitation of some other natural resources in the region, gas deposits, sulfur, don't quite remember. If the Italians don't have an officership of potato retards, troubled Carcanos in two calibers, and oiler pan machine guns, a general advance becomes possible. Give them cruiser tanks par with the British, the guerra di rapido corso becomes a reality. Get a fleet air arm and her flexibility of engagement and recon ability rises. Fix her horrid aeronautic material problems, and maybe her ultra-modern twin engine fighter bomber the Lince won't end up as a plane sized paperweight.
Also, don't go into fucking Greece, and don't start a big fucking Grecophobe propaganda machine the instant Ioannis starts getting flighty in the prewar. Italy and Greece had balmy relations in the interwar, owing to ideological similarities and because/in spite of Ioannis Metaxas wanting to balance himself between all powers; he was a Germanophile, adopted Italian Fascist institutions, and was given to praising his fellow dictators, but was in a weird nexus between the parafascism of Franco and the purer brands in the Axis. Ideologically he was genuinely fascistic, but he ran things as an aloof dictator, with a limited popular support base, no coherent party, and bonded thoroughly to the rule of the King and the army.
And he was thoroughly convicted that Britain would be the winner of a general European war owing to her navy and the Empire, a position informed somewhat by the royalists being dirty Anglophiles. So he was pretty firmly set on neutrality. Mussolini, meanwhile, really wanted a glut of client-states through the whole of the Balkans and the Alps; recall that conflict over the Austrian issue soured German-Italian relations thoroughly, and the first meeting between Hitler and Mussolini was a shouting match over it. Mussolini was screaming for the next few years about how he's going to 'destroy Hitler' and came somewhat close to being in the anti-German block, but drifted back out because Frog & Bong were still bullying him.
7f58aa No.580555
>>580554
In '39 onwards, with some hiccups of briefly restored relations, things heat up because Mussolini is tired of Greek neutrality by '40, Greece is on the alert since '39 after the Albanian adventure, and the Italian ambassador Emanuele Grazzi, is a seat warmer whose work towards restoring Greco-Italian relations are completely at odds with the actual policy of Italy, which he is not in the loop on. Mussolini gives Greece the Serbia treatment with an 'I want unrestricted mil access' ultimatum. Cue the Greek-Italian war. It doesn't go very well. The misadventure delays Barbarossa a bit, and blows up the 'quiet southern front' desire Hitler had. The Balkans have to be occupied. Troubles all around.
Now, say Italy didn't get so provocative and instead kept trying to seduce Greece, while phrasing openly 'the British are going to go to war with us over one thing or another, and they're gonna clean you out sooner or later.' Britain, who explicitly did not like the Metaxas regime, might actually start rumbling in that direction if Metaxas is more apparently committal to peace with Italy than OTL. Start veiling threats, issuing guarantees, and thinkin' about that soft underbelly of Europe in a new light. Then, when Mussolini demands whatever he demands- maybe mildly more tactfully, to the tune of 'break your neutrality, give us basing rights and join the war before things get ugly'- Metaxas will be sufficiently conflicted to begin negotiating entry to the Axis, as opposed to getting dismantled by one power bloc or the other. Hitler will be really, really pissed that Mussolini didn't follow the whole 'no Balkan complications!' request, but will have to relent considering they gained an ally on that front.
Cue a very peculiar Greek front, as perhaps the Anglophile King and Metaxas' fragmented supporters & other fascist/'far-right' elements split off from each other in civil war; I recall the British expeditionary forces in Greece being second-rate fighters that were eager to give ground once the going got tough, though to be fair the OOB was not at all in their favor, so needless to say this all goes very poorly for the Allied-alligned forces when German-Italian forces can swoop in at once to support the Metaxas coalition with the support of some measure of Greek forces and logistics at their back, rather than the protracted mess of a failed Italian invasion against a unified Greece, followed by German intervention and Bulgaria snapping up turf opportunistically. All in all, a mold for an Axis Greece that isn't a pitiable puppet state of little utility and abhorrent condition due to the damages of the invasion as in the Hellenic State. Possibly accomplished without a Barbarossa delay of note, since the Germans are both obligated and inclined to intervene at once with the Italians, where OTL Italy was on its own with the misadventure until it became a strategic necessity to intervene.
Alright. With that all written up, give me a little bit and I'll be back to throw in some tanks also. I mentioned the KV-4 earlier, and by typo or brainfart mislabeled its weight as 60 tons. None of its drafts have a weight in that range, but it's rather plausible since many do not have a definite weight, and there were over twenty separate concept tanks in the KV-4 program each with their own designer. Given a little time, I'm gonna post the lot of them, because some of them are really fucking weird and interesting.
7f58aa No.580724
I promised an actual tank post to make up for lost posts to autistic tangents, and I'm going to fulfill that now. The KV-4. The articles below, though by a Russian and obvious commieboo, are quite illustrative. Just be wary of some of the German tonk or Soviet-German comparative articles, because plenty appear to result in a war in the comments between half-literate wehraboos bringing up potentially key points (example: 122mm gun test article comments tended to note that the Soviets had a habit of pelting a single hull with no automotive components or gun+mantlet with increasingly large guns in one test, compromising the test values of the larger guns through armor fatigue, and occasionally he's accused of being a Stalin apologist) and getting snide dismissals in response, which is less than confidence inspiring even if the opposition are dunderhead typists. Good in-depth explorations behind the scenes if you cut through the bias, though. The articles on the Maus and E-100 had some illuminating information as to their problems. Turns out, 188 tons don't handle mud well no matter the track width, and 130-150 ton tanks attempting to lobby themselves into existence based on parts sharing with 70 ton tanks end up not sharing so many parts or lobbying very far. I advocate for double to triple digit numbers of these produced in an althistory, but there's good reason it only goes up to those digits and no further.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2013/04/prototype-kvs.html
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2016/03/kv-4-initial-proposal.html
http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2016/02/kv-4-at-edge-of-insanity.html
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/04/soviet-107-mm-guns.html
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/09/grabins-superguns.html
After Soviet intelligence gets some half-intelligible murmurings about a German superheavy tank in the works March 11th of 1941, just a little over three months before Barbarossa, the response was as immediate as it was ridiculous. And yet, in my own mindset, a very sensible kind of ridiculous, precisely fitting the 'build ahead of the enemy' mindset. Being quite aware of the 10.5cm Flak 39 through the whole German-Soviet exchange deal (and having been quite disbelieving that the Panzer IV was the heaviest tank the Germans had during the military exchanges, which inspired some unpursued suspicion in Guderian as to what they were hiding) and knowing that a VK 65.01 was in the works that had a 10.5cm gun of some kind in the drafts, supposedly reaching 90 tons, the Soviets launched a superheavy counter tank project. It received no less than 21 separate drafts.
The enemy tank was, of course, quite likely this thing plus some misinformed confusion, see images. The VK 65.01 H. Likely to use a Durchbruchswagen/Panzer IV style turret, with a machinegun zit turret for the radioman. Armament options of short L28 or long L40 75mm gun; it was originally conceived to use an L/20 105mm howitzer, but this seemed too ergonomically ass so it was dropped. Up to 65 ton weight, 80mm armor on all sides; considering this thing is actually heavier than the Tiger, I think even the roof and belly might this thick. 600 horsepower HL224 engine for 20 KPH projected speed. Five man crew. Was scrapped as a project for being ridiculous, because having a 65 ton breakthrough tank that needs to separate into three hull pieces for rail transport (why didn't they just do the transport track trick/) and then takes weeks to reassemble at the front is nonsense and I'm sure someone realized that all-around frontal armor protection level is equally nonsensical, nevermind that the Maginot was killed without these vehicles. The weight is too low for the Soviet projection, but VK numbers as I recall are effectively hull draft numbers, the tonnage before you start sticking in mechanics and plop a turret & gun on.
7f58aa No.580727
>>580724
Alternatively, they might have discovered a very early proto-Lowe in the form of a 149mm/15cm gun carrier, and Soviet intelligence did report the enemy tank as having a 90 ton mass; regardless, whatever they thought up, rumored and garbled together to get their threat projection, it definitely looked more like picture four. And picture four, the Lowe proper, had not been truly conceived until after the Germans had already invaded the Union with masses of filched tinker-tanks and their own intelligence keyed into the Soviet superheavy projects' (brief) existence. It was at that point that Soviet reactive gigantism died and German reactive gigantism was born. You can pick over some info on the Lowe in the following link, but that's not at all our focus.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2017/10/pzkpfw-lowe-german-lion.html
In short, it was troubled but coming together. It would've been an earlier runner than the Tiger II, let alone the Maus. But Porsche's early Type 205 pre-Maus drafts were in a more complete state… which mattered very little, since Hitler raised the weight limits continually in his well-intended and ill-minded foresight of phantom tanks, and Porsche redrafted more and more completely each time instead of settling a design at the original draft weight for production, then moving on to the new one. Hitler himself obviously failed to consider that option. Krupp and the Lowe dropped out when it was clear that the 80-100 ton range was dead and that Porsche was the favored child, though Krupp would come back later with the Tiger-Maus/E-100 to try and weasel back in, to no real avail. The KV-3, 4 and 5 projects were being designed to fight a spy-projected tank that didn't even exist in draft until the Germans heard about their existence. Said tank projects then self-destructed, transmogrified into superheavier versions of themselves, and then saw their original tonnage ground retread by entirely different heavy & superheavy tanks in the Tigers I and II.
The Lowe is also beautiful and perfect and I will not hear otherwise. Adolf wouldn't know a good tankfu if it rolled straight over him. The only thing she needs is a more Tiger II like glacis layout and a thickening of the front turret armor below the mantlet+a Panther G flat chin facing on the bottom side of it to prevent shot trapping. A bustle would be nice. Probably a cupola shift too, since the center-back placement is very suspect breach wise. These exact innovations were pursued, there's no doubt, as the Type 205 uses a Krupp-designed bustled turret that was doubtlessly also intended for the Lowe just by looking at the mantlet layout, the bustle being added in order to solve the issue of how on Earth to load huge high-velocity 15cm one-piece long shells in the round turret. Nevermind that the 15cm is a dalliance and the 10.5cm with some 12.8cm models are more than enough gun.
7f58aa No.580740
>>580727
Had to break away for a bit, connection was out, had skipped lunch and made sandwich.
So, there's all the background behind the start of development of the KV-4 and that its would-be competitor, real and fictional. But what the hell does a KV-4 look like?
In basic requirements; it is initially 70-72 tons, before bloating further to 80-100 tons. It was to have hull thickness in the vicinity of 130mm on the front, sides and rear, give or take, with 50mm or so thick hull roof and bottom. It was to be armed with the 107mm ZiS 6 gun by Grabin, which was calculated as very promising with on paper penetration (but as one commenter in the 107mm gun article notes, would probably be far less worthy in practice because Soviet shell quality is shatter-prone ass, and until later in the war their shell design is no better) as well as three machineguns, a flamethrower, a PPPsh for the crew, and dozens of hand grenades. It was to use a nonexistent 1200 horsepower diesel, with a layout of two 850 horsepower diesels in the meantime, to propel itself at 35 KPH onroad and 20 KPH offroad, with fuel capacity and automotive systems allowing for 'ten uninterrupted hours of driving.' The driver needs to have non-shit visibility out to both fenders. And verbatim, 'the maximum amount of effort expended by the driver to turn the tank must be 15-20 kg, and the maximum amount of effort to depress the clutch must be no more than 25-30 kg."' That is a technical improvement on the T-34's exhausting transmission controls, but still awful. The Panther takes something in the vicinity of five kgs of force to operate. They did plan for a planetary transmission, and these numbers are also to be fair an upper limit, which may not even be close to what it would have taken with the intended servo motor assists.
As for what was actually made? Let's start with S. Fedorenko's design.
>gomrad, if new KV is proportioned like T-34, pigdog fascists will never see heavy tank coming
>also turret is polygonal pancake with M60 turret's turret, but no cupola and also 45mm gun, yuo ar of liek?
It's like a spacefuture concept tank, except in 1941 and even sillier. The hull is sharply angled. The floor is seemingly made of ammo boxes just like the T-34. The turret is a totally flat asymmetrical rhombus. It has a fucking ball turret mount for the 45mm gun which if the top-right front profile is to be believed has such an elevation that it can be used to shoot at enemy dive bombers directly overhead. Almost entirely unknown stats, but apparently she hits 35 KPH. I blame drag from the turret. Probably rejected for not even being close to the stupid heavy weight range and for basically being a suped up T-34 with a tardo turret, in spite of putting a 107mm gun onto the smallest (likely unworkable) medium-heavy chassis possible. It wouldn't be the only submission rejected for being too light.
Next is this less inspiringly ridiculous design by G. Kruchenykh. My immediate thought was that it sort of looked like a stretched-out/backwards Centurion from the side, but the top profile shows that the turret is more like a really big and slightly modernized T-28 turret. Rounded sides going into a flat front. Two zit turrets, of which one is sitting on the 45mm gun cupola at face level with the commander. I have no idea how he is supposed to operate this. We also appear to have a center turret and a center-front engine? Lots of dead space in the turret, of which a lot doesn't seem to be useful as working room; the loader has to work around the knees of the secondary gunner, who presumably has his own loader, as it has a nine man crew. Driver, radio-MG man, gunner, loader, gunner, loader, commander. I don't know what the hell the other two are doing, because there's no assistant driver position (and this isn't an armored car anyways) and I don't think there's enough room for two 107mm loaders to effectively work. Maybe the bow MG turret has a dedicated gunner with a separate radioman, and the main loaders work in shifts between shots? Is this a tank or a battleship? Still only a bit over half the weight of the Maus. 107.7 tons makes for a big tank, 34 KPH speed, 180mm front armor. 9.13m long, 4.03m wide, 3.78m tall.
7f58aa No.580752
>>580740
Next is K. Buganov's draft, with another Merkavalike arrangement. She has the same taper into an ultra-narrow impenetrable front that the Lowe has that I like, and also sort of the turret ring bulge that the Lowe and the quad-track Chrysler/Associated Engineers tanks, but she does it by turning the turret into a kind of war fan-looking thing from the top profile, with a modest though not terrible working room, restricted by the turret ring extending out into a giant overhang. I get the feeling it'd be obnoxious if the turret has to turn to the direct side, because you'll be pinned between the true hull width and the limited remaining space between the front taper and the back turret space getting constricted; shells'll probably bounce off the turret ring and ping around too. On the other hand, the turret ring- since I don't see any seating or turret basket- might be cozy to sit on until you bang your head when the suspension runs over something it doesn't like. The lower glacis is huge, and I bet if you sloped the upper glacis they'd be at similar angles. The ammo being stacked directly behind the engine is ominous; sure, an engine block is that much more metal for a shell to go through rather than open air, but I don't envy anyone inside if an engine fire starts. 93 tons fat. Frontal armor 190mm, six man crew, 7.70 meters long, 3.80 meters wide and 3.90 meters tall. That's over twelve feet of tank; taller than the 3.63 meter Maus! Kruchenykh's was taller too, in retrospect.
L. Pereverzeva's design is quite conventional. From a naval standpoint, at least. The 45mm zit apears to be forward-center on the hull, and presumably to maintain gun depression- because the Soviets were so very known for their well depressing guns and hull down tactics with all -5 degrees of depression for the T-34- the conventional KV looking turret has been superimposed over it. I can only imagine how inviting a target that foot high turret ring is from any angle but the front, where the zit seems to cover up shot trap and all. Then again, the tank is one hundred tons of fat, so I don't think you need to aim that finely. This one is reasonably sized and armored compared to the others at 125mm frontal armor and dimensions of 6,5m long, 3.8 m wide and only 3,32m tall. Somehow, she still clocks in at 100 tons sharp, in spite of the Buganov having greater dimensions and stronger front armor. Maybe they went for all-around 125mm armor? There's something peculiar about the engine & deck layout and I can't put my finger on what it is.
7f58aa No.580756
>>580752
Realized I forgot the speeds for the last two. Buganov is the speed demon of all the designs at 42 KPH, while Pereverzev's pocket battleship somehow hits 39 KPH.
N. Strukov's design appears to have been drawn on a very small napkin with how the top & side profiles bleed into each other. Repeated resaving as a .jpeg before being uploaded to ru.wikipedia has not been kind to it thereafter. Perhaps it wasn't the revelation of Germany conquering half of Russia using only sausage gun tankettes, Czech tractors and farmer Hans & Fritz' horse team that killed the superheavy KV programs, but Mr. Strukov pulling an Office Space and burning the entire design bureau down Milton-style, after which the whole affair was covered up by collective shame and a fresh round of purges by Uncle Joe. It has a similar turret & pagoda arrangement to the Kruchenykh design, but seems to think better of having a bite-triggered commanders' MG turret and just sticks it coaxial with the 45mm gun. More traditional rear transmission-engine arrangement otherwise. The driver lives in eternal fear that an ammo cookoff will put two dozen 107mm shells directly into his backside; he is born in that fear, molded by it.
Next is a draft on an even dirtier napkin by 'Unknown Author.' There's two unknown author drafts with no information beyond their KPH values of 37 and 40 KPH; but there's only one image of these drafts. It's another frontal zit gun, but this time the main turret isn't superimposed. The turret face is sloped back relatively hard. The zit turret ring is almost close enough to the driver in the constrained hull that he'll start shouldering under it. This is also the first design to feature a normal cupola; it doesn't even have a superfluous MG! The author was, presumably, told to go to Gulag for this vile crime. No one is allowed to have proper commanders' cupolas before '43. Except the KV-1S in '42 and maybe some other limited productions. Maybe.
Kreslavsky's design is distinct for being one of only two designs to go for the co-axial arrangement. It is also distinct for being a teeny tiny stretched-out ruskie Maus, albeit with nowhere near the same level of armor. Center-front engine again, might be a rear transmission which would be ''really' weird, and it has a cupola turret which is mercifully more cupola than turret. I'm not sure if bonding the 45mm and 107mm guns into the same turret actually helped anything as far as weight goes, because the turret is real wide to accomodate the crew around/between the guns and to keep the commander from getting his groin obliterated by either of the gun breaches. 92.6 tons heavy, 32 KPH speed, 125mm front armor, six man crew, 9 meters long, 4 meters wide, 3.225 meters tall. It's not as tall as a house like a lot of the rest, but on the other hand probably has a turn radius as wide as the distance from Moscow to Berlin. Presumably she will drive straight to preempt this problem.
7f58aa No.580759
>>580756
Next is N. Shashmurin's. You will notice in this exceedingly messily cropped image its main gun is plopped into the hull, while a normal KV-1 turret just sorta sits on top. Rather than speak my own mind or paraphrase, I will let the designer speak for himself.
>Having received the task to design a multi-turreted cyclops among the other leading designers of the bureau, I, without the enthusiasm about that condition (just think, we just rejected the "supermarket" SMK) I made a "knight's move", rejecting turrets altogether, and doing what I once did for the KV-1, installing the M-10 howitzer in a caponier structure, a casemate. Since we just made a super-heavy KV-3 tank, I didn't think too hard about a new one.
>I took off the turret and repeated my previous work, a high power SPG, installing Grabin's 107 mm gun. I explained in a note that, if necessary, the gun could be removed and replaced with an infantry squad. This modification was not allowed to enter the competition, as it violated the conditions: not enough armour, mass outside the 80-100 ton range, no turrets. In order to avoid a conflict, I made a compromise.
>Maintaining that a superheavy cannot be a tank, I added the necessary protection, reaching about 90 tons. I kept the main gun in a casemate, but added a KV-1 turret on the roof. I.M. ((((Zaltsmann))) liked the design (due to its "reasonable universality", as he called it) and I received a second place award, 1000 roubles. That was nice, I bought a fur coat for my wife."
92 tons heavy, 76mm rather than 45mm gun in a full scale KV turret, 35 KPH max speed, 188mm frontal armor, seven man crew, 10 meters long, 4 wide, 3.88 tall. Assuming this isn't a postwar Slav photoshop job, which it really has to be going by the sharply lined turret, Shashmurin just haphazardly stitched a bunch of copied draft pieces together, lazily overlaid them directly on top of each other, and spent the rest of his work hours on hard drinking. Time well spent, to be sure.
Mikhailov's design is another trail blazer, with a semi-soup bowl turret like the KV-3 before it, and no zit turret at all. Instead, it has a hull casemate 45mm, rather like the end war Japanese heavy/mediums. As a result, its layout isn't all fucked up like some of the others. It also has a peculiar hull step protecting the front turret ring/non-mantlet front face. Overall, it's not a very silly design, and is probably one of the best of the lot. 86.5 tons heavy, an actually sane speed projection of 21 km KPH, 'up to 180mm' frontal armor, 5 man crew (how?) and 9 meters long, 3.6 meters wide, 3 meters tall.
N. Zeitz or Tseits' design is a funny one, in that it lost out on the KV-4 contest, but still ended up approved. He won a cash prize of 2000 roubles for third place, but it was not selected for production under that title. But since in the furor of the KV-4 program no real work was done at all on the linked KV-5 program, and after the rejection of having another design competition debacle, they just decided to cannibalize one of the reasonably heavier tanks. Zeitz' was selected for this purpose. The idea here was that by having a giant super KV-2 cylinder turret, the 107mm ammo could be placed in a big vertical ring all around the turret, allowing the loader to easily access and maneuver into breach almost the entire ammo supply. If you ask me, all this is doing is turning the entire turret into a gigantic Tiger II bustle-style 'shoot me here!' sign. The PaK 40 will go through without argument at 500 meters; the KwK 40 doesn't fare much worse.
To compensate for having the Tsar Bell for a gun housing, the actual hull is set really, really low. It's so low that the driver has a cupola-turret to even be able to sit upright. I am fairly certain that both he and the MG gunner have to crawl into their positions, and I have no idea how they will escape in the event of a knockout; these accommodations might manage to be worse than the Valiant. He was sensible enough to think sticking a 45mm pop gun on was a stupid idea, though! 90 tons sharply heavy, 36 KPH max speed, give or take 125mm armor basically all around, seven man crew, 8.35 meters long, 4.03 meters wide, 3.62 meters tall.
7f58aa No.580777
>>580759
Next is something that's neither a true assault gun like Shashmurin's nor is it a tank. A triple design project by P. Tarapatin, K. Kuzmin and In. Tarotko, it's quite similar to the American 'T-28 concept' wooden model napkin sketch. Or in other words, a limited-traverse turret tank destroyer. The automotive components are presumably in the middle-front hull like the Ferdinand. A third of the turret is set back into this hull box; the 45mm turret is set on top of it. It's novel, but distinctly not a tank nor a reasonably proportioned assault gun. And at 92 tons of weight with 188mm front armor, it's somehow fatter than Tseits' super KV-2 boondoggle. Seven man crew, 10 meters long, 4 meters wide, 3.88 meters tall.
Finally, we have the ultimate winner of the contest; N. Dukhov's design. It's… really quite reasonable. It's a fat KV with a proportional gun. Only a side profile on hand right this second. 107mm/45mm coaxial arrangement like Kreslavsky, with a center 107mm turret and the 45mm shoved far outwards. MG zit cupola. Rear drivetrain. No fancy, fucked up hull finagling. It's also the lightest draft at 82.5 tons, not counting the presumably even lighter Shashmurin assault gun before he bloated it with armor and the KV turret. 35 KPH. The hull is just a lengthened, rearranged T-220 with a revised turret. The armor and dimensions statistics are missing from Russian Wikipedia, as well as the better-read articles I'm looking over, but presumably it sits somewhere close to the original draft of 130mm. Wargaming's iteration in World of Tanks appears to be completely fraudulent with 180mm front and 150mm sides, and 90mm rear, while sitting at 97.43 tons; none of the drafts appear to reach this weight, so it seems to be a hybrid between the Dukhov turret and a separate though similar hull.
Last image taken from the below article originally in Slav runes, which I started picking over partways through and might add to or correct anything I've glossed over. From left to right for the first two rows, the KV-1, Buganov's pancake turret draft, Fedorenko's space tank which contrary to what the hull layout led me to believe is just as fat as the rest- the main gun proportions relative to the turret should have been a giveaway- and Kreslavsky's slavmaus, Mikhailov's fattened KV-3 soupbowl, Shashmurin's assault gun of spite, Zeitz-Tseits KV-4/5 bellhouse, Kruchenykh's pagoda, and Pereverzev's battleship.
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://alternathistory.com/tyazhelyi-tank-kv-4-sssr&xid=17259,15700021,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700186,15700189,15700191,15700201,15700205&usg=ALkJrhgEF7GBHOMcWIgrXoP0X3VD5pyeeg
I hope that this has been interesting for you to read, and not superfluous in addition to the articles I myself used for reference. The majority of the KV-4 drafts are terrible and almost half aren't even available to look at, with the drafts of F. Marishkin, G. Moskvin, A. Ermolaev, L. Sychev, Bykov, G. Turchaninov, V. Pavlov, D. Grigoriev, and one unknown author having no associated images that I found while puttering around, but all of them are cute, in a sense. I don't know if I'd call any of them tankfus, but I already have one, and she is pure.
7f58aa No.580778
>>580777
Godsake. Last image corrupted. I'm sorry.