/k/ - Weapons

>>533852

Russian helicopters have actual armor. US helicopters have tinfoil protection, which isn't a substantial exagerration.

>>533858

>Russian helicopters have actual armor

not suppose to hold still long enough to get shoot easily.

>>533858

>Russian helicopters have actual armor.

doesn't stop some goatfucker shooting you down with a rocket now does it?

>>533858

they're attack helicopters not defend helicopters.

Checkmate soviets.

>>533893

Too expensive for something as expendable as a frontline chopper.

>>533858

Can't find sauce now but I recall murkans had modified a Cobra into a Ka-50 rotor configuration and they had concluded that the latter was vastly superior in air combat too.

>>533863

It stops small arms fire and cannon rounds up to 20 mm point blank. Needless to say it stops blast shrapnel easily.

Peaches and watermelons comparison.

Apache is built for lone missions, hovering behind a tree line and popping out to fire Hellfires. Hence the emphasis on that one weapons system, long range sensors and the huge fuel allotment. This is a tactic designed to make it risky for Russian tanks to cross the Fulda Gap, because it's popping behind a treeline you can't take the damn thing out and it can take out an entire armored column.

Ka-50 (and the Mi-28) basic mission is to wait for a heavy rainstorm during nighttime, then as part of a team do a rapid enter of an enemy held arena with hundreds of vehicles in it, and while taking extreme AAA fire cause absolute chaos. Hence emphasis on superior speed, armor, and variety of weapons (including bombs) compared to Apache.

>>533860

They actually are. These choppers are built specifically to attack areas that are defended by AAA.

>>533893

>the only chopper in the world that can do SEAD

Because the DOD is retarded.

>>533913

Niggawatt? Half the Jews on the planet have an American citizenship.

>>533914

>20 mm point blank

where is the proof?

>>533993

>>533914

Does anyone have the video of the Havoc cockpit getting minigunned at point blanc?

>>533923

>>the only chopper in the world that can do SEAD

Can't the Ka-50 do SEAD with the Kh-25MP missile? I mean it CAN in Wargame, but it's not great at it there, but Wargame isn't exactly accurate

>>533993

>>533998

This?

>>534021

But why Dire Straits?

>>534019

Depends what you mean by SEAD I guess. The comanche can't be seen or shot at, and has radar homing missiles.

>>534021

lol Apache windshield is quarter inch plexiglass. I think it's rated to stop pistol rounds from fifty yards.

>>533858

>putting all that unessecary weight on an attack helicoper

Has Russia even won any substantial miltary conflict besides Chechnya? They even lost to Ukrop militias. FSBniggers not even once.

>>534059

Yes, the AGM-122 Sidearm, or basically the AIM-9C with a radar seeker. Definitely cheaper and easier to produce than the AGM-88 HARM or any other anti-radiation missile, while also being smaller, but it had limited performance.

https://archive.fo/pKGF

>>534096

>unnecessary weight

And yet it outperforms everything else currently in the air - on top of having actually good armor.

>>533852

All things said and done real world usage trumps all. In every procurement competition the Apache has been selected over its competitors speaking volumes about it performance and the advantages of the US FMS programs. On the other hand Ka-50/52 was only inducted in Russian service to keep the program afloat (in their competition for primary attack helicopter it initially lost out to Mi-28) and although the coaxial rotor system is on paper better for shipboard use but years of USMC experience with Cobra suggests that conventional configuration works as well.

>>534231

>Out of the two I think the Apache is better simply because of the vastly superior cannon traverse.

The 2A42 has higher muzzle velocity than the M230 and the fixed mounting of the cannon in Ka-50 gives it better accuracy while relying on its greater turn rate instead of a traversing turret. The coaxial rotor also allows "circle strafing" where the helicopter maintains LOS to a target and flies in circles around it.

>>533923

>Apache is built for lone missions, hovering behind a tree line and popping out to fire Hellfires.

This. Because of its mast mounted radar and fire and forget missiles an Apache does not have to stay in harms way so has no need for heavy armor. Whereas, the Ataka (SACLOS via radio) and Vikhr (SACLOS laser beam rider) require the helicopter to maintain line-of-sight with the target and with the Soviet preference for using unguided rockets in shallow dives means that the helicopter is vulnerable for longer time so requires more protection.

>>534256

Martian speaks truth.

IMO the best helicopter fleet would be most diverse an approach that unfortunately turkroaches seem to have grasped.

>>534231

Don't look at caliber.

The M230 Apache chain gun is a grenade launcher in all but name, it has an effective firing range of 1.5km, and can't penetrate shit. It almost exclusively uses a dual-purpose shell, a frag shell that has less frag than a 20mm shell, and a tiny HEAT shell with 50mm RHA penetration.

The 2A42 30mm on the Kamov is a true autocannon. The M929 penetrator it fires is superior to dual purpose M789 at 1.5km and can actually hit out to 4km.

>Mk 47

That would make sense.

Although in my private opinion the Apache should be re-worked. It's no longer meant to die in huge numbers in the Fulda Gap to stop Russian T-72s. The hellfire job has been completely taken over by UAVs anyway.

The main job of Apache today is hovering and killing terrorist trucks and terrorists who are digging IED ditches. I think an insurgency version of Apache should be made, with a single pilot, without winglets, without the nose gun. Featuring only one weapon, a Bushmaster 4 in a belly configuration with over 100 roounds. That way one Apache can control the ground space over 6km, instead of using seven current Apaches for the same job.

>>534238

>tfw kiowas have better unguided munitions than apache

I think he specifically wanted the fusing power of the Mk47, which is far more important. A 40x53mm that's fully dedicated to fragmentation, with a fuse, would be devastating. One round would be enough to fuck up an entire terrorist group, instead of using 30-40 rounds of the pathetic dual purpose 30mm, which is hitting and burying itself in the sand before exploding.

>>534295

A single seat Apache was built to test single pilot configuration for the doomed LHX program.

IMO, COIN aircraft like A-29 and Bronco are better than all helicopters with regards to reliability, endurance, ease of maintenance, payload, ease of flying etc.

If one insists on helicopters then something like ARH-70 seems better for counter insurgency. It has much lower operating costs, reduced logistic footprint, ability to be transported in C-130, ability to carry troops (maybe UAV operators like naval helicopters have sonar operators?) etc. With regards to armament, laser guided rockets provide long range accurate firepower and the MG can be replaced by a cannon if needed.

>>533858

i'm actually very partial to russian hardware, but your modern attack helicopters are poo poo. at least it finally has thermal and nv, all weather capabilities, that was nuts that it went so long without.

then again, attack helicopters are a stupid concept in general. an STOL fixed wing is better in every way except "go straight up", and many attack helicopters can't even do that under full combat load.

>>534322

You want some more butthurt, Ivan? Even tiny Georgia with nonexistent counter-air defence shot down up to 24 Russian aicrafts in a few fucking days. And those weren't your regular rusty aircrafts, I mean they could actually fly lol.

>>534334

>shot down up to 24 Russian aicrafts in a few fucking days

Citation needed.

>>534337

That's a Georgian data. I tend to believe it instead of any Kremlin's """statistics""" - daily reminder, they were actually telling everyone USSR lost only 4 million people in WW2 while now officially admitted number is 26,6 million.

>>534343

> they were actually telling everyone USSR lost only 4 million people in WW2 while now officially admitted number is 26,6 million

Maybe it has something to do with a Georgian being chief in command.

>>534317

The "go straight up" capability is a pretty big deal in non-COIN warfare. The ability to use terrain as cover is huge, you can't hover or utilize ground effect lift at low (sub-100 knot) speeds to keep yourself hidden and safe in the terrain in a STOL aircraft.

>>534334

>>534337

>>534343

>russia is soviet union

USSR was at the time led by a Georgian called Stalin. He had a penchant for erasing people from history, lying at mass scale, and slaughtering a hundred million Russians and other Slavs for which Russians still get blamed for.

Pick up a book.

I believe the 24 downed aircraft because Georgia had Soviet SAM, home field advantage, and intimate knowledge of Russian techniques HOWEVER I also believe that it's likely the number includes a dozen or so UAVs and most of the other ones are frogfoots that limped home.

>>534391

I think the Buk system has only a .8 chance of hitting a low flying helicopter, while having a .95 chance of hitting a high flying fighter. And if you actually pop behind terrain the chance is 0. It's just one example but it shows there's a significant benefit to flying low.

This is why TERCOM is so important, why cancelling the F-11 (flawed as it was) was a mistake, and why stealth is such a scam overall.

>>534399

>russia is soviet union

Basically it is officially considered to be the heir of USSR and still led by Kremlin with former KGB guys in charge. Sure it isn't such a precise copy of USSR as Belarus, but overall their mindset and methods are more or less the same.

>USSR was at the time led by a Georgian called Stalin. He had a penchant for erasing people from history, lying at mass scale, and slaughtering a hundred million Russians and other Slavs for which Russians still get blamed for.

There's an ironical meme in Russia called "billions fusilladed personally by Stalin". I mean, he was a huge fag and had a lot of power but he wasn't almighty (as well as Putin) and if you'd dig into the biographies of other officials like Lenin, Khrushchev, Yezhov etc you'll find they were pretty much the same. It's not about the one bad guy, the entire Russian control system is retarded as hell and produces catastrophes all the time.

>>534462

It's considered to be heir to USSR because it had the most silos and nukes on it.

If Ukraine had 90% of USSR nukes on their soil, they would be heir to USSR and the other countries with 10% nukes would send it to them.

The Russian people, as a nation, had fuckall to do with USSR or the decisions USSR made. Their only contribution is serving as scientists, slaves and cannon fodder. Russian mindset is completely different from Ukrainian and all other groups that led the USSR, which is why modern Russia is far more capitalist than America.

All of USSR leaders:

Lenin - Jew

Stalin - Georgian

Khrushchev - Ukrainian

Brezhnev - Ukrainian

Andropov - Cossack father, German Jew mother

Chernenko - Ukrainian

Gorbachev - Ukrainian father, Russian mother

Anyone who doesn't know this should be shot for rank stupidity.

>It's not about the one bad guy

lol fuck off. Dictatorships are about the one bad guy, deal with it.

>>534485

>modern Russia is far more capitalist than America

This statement is sooo incredibly autistic, I'm now ashamed to share ayy flag with you solely because of it.

>>534501

OK for the year [2016]

America

>taxes $3.268 trillion

>deficit $1 trillion

>GDP $18.57 trillion

>23% taken from the people

Russia

>revenue 200 billion

>deficit 21 billion

>total 221 billion dollars

>1.28 trillion GDP

>17% is taken from the people

And this is during a crisis, when they're borrowing and taxing like mad. Before 2018 it used to be 10% total for Russia and 18% for America (pre-Obama).

Russia is basically twice as capitalist as America ever since USSR was disbanded.

>>534485

Nobody gives a shit, you dumb faggot.

>>534317

Ka-52 is rated at 3g loads and 8 m/s climb rate, full loadout.

>>534343

Combat losses on eastern front are approximately 11 million for both beliggerents. The rest however many millions are starved civilians in stalingrad, soldiers that died after retirement, unborn infants, and all other shit. This number grows by a million every year. I'm surprised none of the mainstream shills push for ridiculous figures like 100 million executed by Stalin personally and whatnot.

>>534462

>make retarded claim

>get btfo

>start making up excuses

Are you a literal kike? Because it's a kike thing, pulling ad dictionarium fallacies at people with pretense that doing so makes their position correct in an argument, while in reality it completely fucking invalidates all of it.

>>534521

Fucking over anyone who gets shit done, installing your own people and have their incompetence run the company into the ground is a heavy soviet heritage, all post-soviet countries are affected by this, Ukraine has it the worst though. Having employees extremely underpaid and overworked, for the doubly increased profit of kikes, is also a heavy soviet heritage. Both are issued by the government, there are even documented facts on having riot police pulled on strikes over demands of slightly increased salaries.

>>534391

>using helicopters in non-COIN warfare

good luck. the epoch of the attack helicopter came before MANPADs were a thing.

real world effectiveness of pop attacks is dubious. it requires specific terrain, and hovering is the least fuel efficient thing you can do, so loiter time is through the floor.

STOLs can also use terrain, flying NOE, and have evasive/speed advantages. The next major conflict against any army that isn't arab tier retarded is going to be the end of attack helos, they even made a poor showing in the gulf wars.

>>534317

>>534628

>STOL fixed wing is better in every way except "go straight up"

Harriers and the F-35 are both capable of minutes of hover before overheating while most attack coppers are capable of hours before running out of fuel, hover in this case includes any time the VTOL / STOL mode is in use with airspeed below ~100 knots.

Basically if you want terrain masking, popup attacks, orbiting cannon / rocket attacks STOL / VTOL is as useless as any other fixed wing.

>The next major conflict against any army that isn't arab tier retarded is going to be the end of attack helos

In a real was against a competent military all that is going to matter is air superiority because everything from choppers to IFVs to MBTs will get wrecked by fast movers. This isn't a valid reason to stop using choppers, IFVs or MBTs because everyone makes an effort of avoiding fighting people that can fight back.

>>533852

GOOD GOD! Did anyone else see that animation of a helicopter with ejection seats?!

Fucking polish made helicopter ejection sets. LOL

>>534633

V/STOL is dead.

1. It requires intensive training, training which can be utilized on other missions.

2. It compromises the aircraft's performance (see F-35B) for a dubious capability which is rarely used.

3. The Forward Operating Bases concept cannot work for maintenance heavy F-35s (also I think F-35s will require more heavier planking than Harrier). Even if it could in peer warfare SAR/GMTI/SIGINT plus MRLs/tactical ballistic missiles means that such bases can be easily targeted. If they are moved back they loose their high sortie rate advantage.

4. VTOL aircraft like other are vulnerable to air defence systems though other aircrafts due to their superior kinematic performance can better make use of terrain masking, evasive maneuvering, higher fuel load for maneuvering and indirect routing etc

Helicopters are best thought of as ground vehicles with high speed 100% cross country mobility.

>real world effectiveness of pop attacks is dubious

Such tactics were well honed in Europe during numerous exercises during the Cold War. Read the reports and you will find how difficult it is to detect a helicopter from the ground not to mention at night and in the confusion of battle. As for radars AEW can detect them but their hands will be full against enemy fighters. Ground based radars will have to be above tree line and no ground based radar cab detect a helicopter if it is behind a farm building, ridge etc

>the epoch of the attack helicopter came before MANPADs were a thing

Attack helicopters now have MAWS, automatic flare launchers and laser/IRCM to protect against IR guided missiles. Then there is the difficulty of the MANPAD operator of visually acquiring the target, IFF issues etc

>The next major conflict against any army that isn't arab tier retarded is going to be the end of attack helos

No one knows for sure untill God forbid such a war takes place. On paper tanks are long obsolete,manned fighters are thing of the past, the Russian IADS is impenetrable like it was back in the Vietnam era and then the Yom Kippur war etc. But history has shown that using one's equipment with proper tactics to maximize their potential and complementing it with others to minimize vulnerability plus using the old dictums of ingenuity, deception, etc victory can be attained.

Now they may be considered a joke but the 1930s France had the best Army, tanks etc and an impenetrable Maginot Line and I dont need to tell you what happened next.

"L'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace"

>>533893

The Commanchee was developed as a recon helo for the Apache, in order to allow fast recon to go ahead of the Apaches and scout for targets.

However, the doctrine was changed, since it was no longer considered a priority to have a recon element in the area before conducting an op, due to the advances in satellite recon.

This means that the apache is now send out on the basis of satellite images taken before an operation, and the enemy won't know that there may be an attack soon.

I would still love to see a proper Commanche though, since the concept of a stealth helo is intriguing me. Yes, helos are loud but you can nowadays lessen the noise levels produced by putting tiny electrically controlled flaps on the end of the rotor blades to reduce wiggle. At that point the main noise production would be the downwash, and that is unavoidable even on normal prop planes or turbine engines

>>534117

Most modern AA is armoured though. Tough luck taking out anything that isn't a massive S400 missile sitting outside of it's silo. Armoured AAA will most likely survive anything besides a direct hit for that pea shooter.