/k/ - Weapons

>>531797

Thermal cameras of reasonable size have fuckall resolving ability, so you could maybe use it for spotting, but not for aiming. They also have very bad latency and ghosting/framerate (pick one) because exposure needs to be very high. A lot of normally transparent objects block IR light, too, such as window panes. All metals are IR-reflective and their IR visibility is very low for that reason. A coat of thermal insulation makes objects nigh-invisible in IR as well.

Flashlight on the gun makes more sense because that way you always have rough idea which way it is pointed, and in close quarters it can double as a makeshift laser sight, and you don't typically need to see where the gun isn't pointed.

sounds like you want a camera probe. wouldn't really need one attached to the gun I don't think. not unless you were using a (((cornershot))).

>Wouldn't having a thermal camera on the gun and a flashlight on the helmet make more sense than having a night vision device on the helmet and a flashlight on the gun?

No, it makes more sense to use FLIR to detect movement and use NOD for identification, while keeping natural night vision and not broadcasting visible light if it can be helped.

>It's easier to switch between "normal" and "enhanced" vision that way, and you mostly need the later to observe movement at a distance and to aim the gun itself.

Or, you can use the FLIR to detect movement and then use an PEQ and helmet mounted NOD for identifying and engaging targets.

>Also, having a small light on your helmet all the time seems to be better than putting on and off a heavy night vision device.

Heavy? A PVS-14 weighs 11oz. You also don't remove NODs, they're on a locking swing arm and can be locked up out of the way.

>Moreover, a thermal camera is useful even during daytime, especially if the enemy doesn't mask their thermal signature.

Sure, if the device is to made to the build quality of something like the AN/PAS-13.

>So at this point thermal cameras for guns would be just an excuse for companies like Lockheeb to waste taxpayer's money. Is it an evolving technology, or are there some walls we won't be able to breach in the foreseeable future?

On the civilian market? Yes. Military systems? No.

>So it would be rather easy to hide infantry from IR if it was a real problem, right?

FLIR is a "real problem", as it's on all major combat platforms utilized by major military forces. The difference is the quality of vehicle mounted systems using crogencially cooled imaging detectors over that of weapon mounted systems using a CMOS or CCD.

>thermal

>more expensive than nv

>give thermal to every soldier

Only one vehicle in a platoon should have thermal and only one guy in a fireteam should have a nigh sight on his rifle. Rest should have flashlights and flares.

>>531830

>The hands of a soldier are on his gun most of the time. If they are not they are found wrapped around either a spoon or his dick.

I see youve never been in the army lol

>>531820

Ambient temperature black body radiation is so low frequency that its photons can't excite electrons at all, so photoelectric effect is out of the question entirely and forever. The only way we know of to detect those is to use thermocouple pile to detect heat flux, make them tiny and pack very densely together to create a pixel matrix. Compared to photoelectric pixels they are huge, and are very expensive to manufacture because of complex structure and having to use multiple different metals in specific arrangement in the same microscopic unit. Maybe as technology improves further, you could make these thermopile matrices with higher pixel density, but otherwise there's no forseeable improvements.

>laser sight

It would of course, but you could only use either - light from the flashlight obscures the red dot strongly. With appropriate optics you could focus a small beam of very intense light right in the center to emulate a laser pointer, while having the rest of the flashlight optics work as per usual, dispersing (focusing) light from the LED.

>>531797

see

>>531812

A modern handheld FLIR camera that you could afford (couple hundred bucks) has a screen resolution of about 60x60 pixels. That's super fucking crappy and near useless beyond a few meters for smaller things, add to that weather effects that fuck with thermal (such as fog, rain and snow).

FLIR cameras only rule when you got the really expensive high tech shit on an APC or helicopter/drone.

>>531820

>So it would be rather easy to hide infantry from IR if it was a real problem, right?

Not really, only if you have crappy devices. German soldiers are taught that if the enemy rolls in FLIR, you're practically fucked.

>>531905

>If Heckle my Koch really didn't bother to put some on the iron sights of the G36, then that rifle is indeed barely better than a piece of plastic shaped like a toy gun

>iron sights of the G36

>irong sights

It doesn't have any iron sights, besides some shitty plastic ones that only work once you break off the red dot. The red dot is supposed to replace the irons, which works quite well, since it can be operated by daylight, and only reqires batteries at night. I would prefer backup irons though.

Still a capable 5.56 rifle. Not perfect, but it shoots, got integrated x4 optics, won't jam and is light.

>inb4 muh G36 scandal! HK A SHIT

Fuck off. The G36 entered service in 1996. Nobody EVER clomplained about it for nearly 20 years. Then some fancy pants show up, claim the rifle is shit, got no proof whatsoever and everyone in the media joins in the choir, first claiming the rifle jams when hot, which turns out to be untrue, then claiming that rifle becomes less accurate when subjecting it to rapid changes in temperature of up to 30°C, which turns out to be true, but what the fuck? 30°C in less than a minute? Unless you take your rifle out of the freezer and into summer's sun it will function fine. Then the "ministress" of defense comes along and says the rifle will be replaecd in 2017, and here we are. No new rifle yet. The old one still works just fine. Spain uses it, Lithuania uses it, we use it, police and special forces around the world use it, the Mexicans tried to copy it…

>>you are a brave Soldat defending cultural enrichment from the pure evil of Putin

Do I sense butthurt? Landesverteidigung is the main task of any military. The fact that for the past 60 years all we had was "Rotland" to train against obviously left an imprint on the miitary structure of the western militaries. Any reference to Russian invaders is purely coincidential of course. It could be any amred force attacking any of our allies.

>>you are sitting in a forest, apparently alone

Never said alone. You are just sitting in the forest in your forward observation position, ready to alert anyone behind you once you see an enemy

>>some Russians decide to play sneeky breeky and so they switch on their lights, because that's how you are supposed to move through a forest unseen

You go ahead and try to move in a dark night, no stars or moon to helo you out, through uncertain terrain without the aid of lights or NVGs go head, try it. Don't worry, I got my flashlight and will be ready to pick you up once you broke your leg in some hole you didn't see.

>>you apparently don't have any night vision devices to try and check their uniforms

Exactly. The entire first half of that post was about combat without NVGs, which is not an unlikely scenario, because batteries run out over time and getting new ones depends entirely on chain of supply, which will be broken eventually. There is a reason many armed forces train at night without them.

>>532097

>> you start shouting at them in German

You don't actually know how identification works, do you?

You shout the first part of a certain set of characters, for example "Alpha Kilo", or "Lima November". If they don't respond with the specified second half they are enemy. If they do they are friendlies. There are 26 letters in the NATO alphabet, so they could pick two or more random letters out of 26. Chances they "guessed" the right ones are VERY slim.

>>they apparently don't have anyone who could answer in what might be German with a weak Russian accent

Shouting "Ja Kamerad! Schnitzel ist gut!" will never be the second half of identification. They need the second half. Even if they tortured some PoWs to get that info, the identification is changed every 24 hours at least.

>>or just a strange German dialect you are not familiar with

I admit there are many, but anyone over the age of 16 at least knows the difference between Rusky and German.

>>instead they randomly start whispering suka blyat, because that's how stealth is done

And how a commander would give orders to his troops, once he notices that he has stumbled upon an enemy position. Communication with "visual hand gestures" doesn't work as well at night, you know?

>>but for some reason they don't immediately turn towards you with their lights and gun you down

You know what foxholes and camouflage are? They work even better in the dark. Flashlights, even good ones, will barely illuminate 10 to 20 meters ahead of you. Your voice can easily be carried for 100 meters or more. vocal identification is possible, but not visual in the dark of night.

>>and in this moment you could win the firefight if only you could shine a light on them

Nobody ever said anything about shining a light at them. What would follow next would be alarming the troops behind you and executing the orders your commander gave you before he positioned you where you are now. Depending on the situation he could have you open fire immediately, or wait for your troops to get into position, or have ordered you to retreat to your own lines.

Alerting the troops behind you can be done by fireing at the enemy, shooting a flare, or tugging on a piecee of string that connects to some cans back at the tents.

>You could, you know, aim at the light.

That's what is logical, and what I suggested, yes.

>Or use a night vision device to identify them

A: no NVGs in this scenario.

B: Try to identify someone from 100 meters, if they are actively trying to hide, using only NVGs. Vocal identification works much better and ensures you didn't mistake that one friendly recon unit in their ghille suits with russian snipers.

>then take a flare gun and light up the night

As suggested, that is one of the methods of ararming friendlies. Usually this is avoided, since the shooter also reveals his position to the enemy. Yes, there are time delayed parachute flares, but even those use lit fuses, which create sparks that paint a line from the flare to the position of the soldier on the ground. A better way of alerting would be radioing back the sighting and keeping your leader informed about distance and number of enemies. This allows your friendlies to get into position without entering combat just yet, and also gives your leader more information that just "they are in this general area". Feuerüberfall is a strategy that is time prooven sine WWI and beyond. It works.

Also: shoot a flare in a dark forest and chances are you will hit a tree.This will literally illuminate you, not the enemy. Flares are usefull, yes, but not as usefull as a radio, or even a tin-can telephone for alarming. Illumination is where they excell at, which is why they are used that way.

>>532098

>why would they try to sneak with their lights on?

It's pitch black, no moon no stars, in a thick forest. Try to navigate without NVGs or lights, and try to stick together as a group. You will either trip and fall over so many sticks and stones you break your bones, or be a loud motherfucker.

>If the gun has a passive device acting as a sight that enables him to see in the dark then he doesn't need to switch on the flashlight on his head to aim and fire. Instead he has to look through the sight of the gun.

Falling for the NVS meme, I see. What do you do with your sights when day breaks? Do you take off the NVS and use your normal sights, lug around the NVS all day and screw it back on at night?

Or, you know, alternatively you could use NVGs instead, which not only allow you to properly navigate in the dark without having to keep your sights held up to your face, but can also be used in conjunction with your normal sights to work in the night.

All I am saying is that putting the light on your helmet is retarded, when it is much betteer to have it on your gun and be able to immediately switch it off as soon you notice somone nearby.

NVGs on your helmet allow you to easily navigate harsh terrain at night.

>>531915

I have, but I don't brag about it like some fags do. The truth is, military work is just like any other work: work. You wake up in the morning, you put on your pants, you eat breakfast, and do what your boss tells you to do. The only difference is that you are expected to die for the company if required, and that health and safety goes out the windows as soon as the rubber hits the road.

>>531929

I remember my Zugführer telling us that he was in Canada training with the leafs some years ago. Said they used the tarpuline covers for the vehicles to conceal them from the enemy FLIR. They simply proped up the covers between trees and parked the tanks behind them, only the optics sticking out. Of course the covers were painted white.

They also did something similar with the foxholes: They laid their Zeltbahn over them and painted them white as well. They would keep their heads below the Zeltbahn as to not stick out to FLIR and wait for the friendly tanks to advance. Then they sprung out from underneath and attacked. This not only kept them comfy and warm, but also allowed the guys in the foxholes to get some rest, while the tank crews took turns looking out.

He said it worked quite well, many leafs were virtually raked on their own frozen soil. I can't confirm or deny it however.

>>532355

>firing to establish your superiority

Im just imagining david attenborough narrating a hostile contact at night.

"The american soldiers, having prepared their holes for the night, are still keeping a watchful eye for potential predators. A watching soldier perks up, as he hears the faint sounds of an unfamiliar voice. Looking around, he notices a glimmer of light, about 100 meters in the distance. Knowing there may be a threat to his troop, he alerts his fellow soldiers, before calling out for identification."

>insert appropriate callout here

"His suspicions are raised, as the potential foes voices fall silent, and their lights go dark. He calls out once more. Knowing this is a hostile environment with a high chance of unfriendly contact, when he hears silence once more, he opens fire on the last known location as a show of superiority. Though the ensuing firefight will take several hours, there will be no casualties on either side, as the hostile contacts had buggered off right quick. Such is life in the combat zone."

>>532422

For the full effect i want it to have, it needs to take place over about a 5 minute video, complete with all the ambient sounds attenbro likes to use.

>>532355

>pic

That guy is a poser

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/19/night-vision-capabilities-taliban-afghanistan/

https://archive.fo/1nrDf

So even goatfuckers have at least some NV now.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/18/meopta-meonight-1-1-night-vision-device/

https://archive.is/feLQC

Interestingly here's a device that can be simply mounted in front of a normal scope. Sounds like a perfect solution to some of the concerns raised ITT.

>>532422

Well, I guess this is what happens in English military lingo meets the Hungarian stylistic rule that says you should avoid repeating words whenever possible.

>Though the ensuing firefight will take several hours, there will be no casualties on either side, as the hostile contacts had buggered off right quick.

Indeed, that's the most likely outcome.

>>531797

what i dont get is why theres even a debate on this

flaslights:

>pretty fucking basic

>very limited range

>good budget

>literally highliting your won position

Night vision:

>cant be seen

>problems will include any surfaces that mildly deflect light

>not so good resolution if you dont wanna pay big money

>dont ever shine your IR into police helicopters

thermal:

>best performance

>most cool

>"your own funeral" tier prices

>>531797

If you navigate over terrain using flashlight you would be extremely visible especially if enemy has light intensification night vision devices. Helmet mounted NV allows you move without announcing your presence to everyone miles away.

>>547396

Thermals are generally better in detection but there are important exceptions. Light intensification night vision devices are very good if enemy doesn't maintain light discipline (aka uses flashlight like OP). So ideally squad should use mix if devices at once.

>>532355

Aperture wouldn't work that way, it would simply reduce beam intensity without affecting beam shape. Now that I think of it however, it would be simpler to have a flashlight with built-in laser sight, and to no surprise such systems already exist.