YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
744356 No.529352
How will the EU fuck this up?
https://qz.com/1127984/eu-army-bloc-forging-ahead-with-its-military-integration-to-shake-off-us-dependence/
>It took 70 years, but the European Union finally signed a pact today (Nov. 13) agreeing to integrate military funding, weapons development, and deployment of European defenses. In a way, creating a unified mega army.
7e655b No.529355
By arguing over who gets to foot the bill.
2e9f3b No.529364
By the virtue of being European
ac79bc No.529373
Who the fuck would want to serve in this cucku shit?
cb7ee8 No.529379
They have almost no functional tanks, about ~2000 of various incompatible types from Twardy to Leopard 2a7. By comparison USA and Russia each have about 4000-6000 active, and 10k+ in storage. The vast majority of EU forces ride around in armored cars, which prevailingly use roads because add-on armor makes them too heavy for off road use. Their aircraft are mostly strike aircraft, with only token ability to intercept or fight. Their navies are frigate and corvette heavy, very few destroyers or cruisers.
tl;dr Their military is a force designed for INTERNAL police action, in other words to suppress a revolt by a country that might want to leave.
46661f No.529383
>>529352
What European would die in the name of the EU? It's probably going to be as bad as Vichy France.
b78c15 No.529385
>>529352
How will the EU fuck up Wehrmacht 2.0? before you start sperging I'm calling them the Wehrmacht because they'll be taking their orders from Berlin and enforcing the will of a government that the majority of the continent did not elect and has no say in. Unfortunately they are a lot less likely to fight communists.
>Money - Germany will end up holding the bill, and good luck to them as that would probably be what breaks what's left of their bank account.
>Over Regulation - EU squaddies will be issued more policy documents than rounds of ammunition (and that's measuring by weight rather than number). Policy decisions will not last much past the year they're issued either.
>Muh Equality! - Yes, you might be the most qualified soldier in the continent for this job, but the lobbyists are giving us shit about not having a high enough number of blacks/vaginas/gays/*ERROR, group name not found* in this role. Don't worry, it's all good, when does an army ever actually need someone to do their job well? Oh, and any complaints/reports/references about problems/deaths caused by the person we have appointed will lead to you being court martialed and unpersoned.
>Kit - We must now adopt standardised equipment! No, the committee deciding what kit won't publish their report this decade. No, you can't keep the non-standard kit until the new kit is chosen and produced. No, the new kit will not be chosen to comply with our budget or your budget. No, you don't have any say. No, we don't care about the effectiveness of the kit. Shut up.
>Committees - There will be 50 committees appointed for everything. Every unit, every battalion, every policy, every piece of kit, every god damn thing. If they're lucky they won't have to get mid-firefight orders ratified by civilian oversight.
>Mixed priorities - if they let member states keep their national armies then best of luck getting a penny or non-useless recruit for the EU army. If they try to get most nations to give up their armies then that would result in, at best (for them), the complete death of the EU.
ad9d76 No.529386
>>529385
> I'm calling them the Wehrmacht because they'll be taking their orders from Berlin
Don't you mean Tel-Aviv? :^)
829c29 No.529414
>>529379
the point of having a EU army is to oppress the populace.
744356 No.529415
>>529385
>How will the EU fuck up Wehrmacht 2.0?
Didn’t the Wehrmacht had a leaked documents exposing how they were preparing for the collapse of the eu?
b725f6 No.529418
Simple answer, Austrian-Hungarian army. Multi-ethnic and multi-languages do not mix well in chaotic and stressful situations. If anything ever happens small nations will get bullied into sending their ethnic unit out to the meat grinder, which will cause tension. As soon as anything goes wrong, a retreat etc the soldiers will just band up with whoever speaks their languages/ is from their general country. So everything from friendly fire to other divisions stealing from each other.
Also does anyone have a list of who agreed to this? All articles just say 20 something countries. I would be shocked if Poland agreed to this.
4cfd15 No.529419
>>529391
C'mon Charlie, the letter was spot on; let the kikes kvetch all they want.
>>529415
Bundeswehr and they give it till 2040.
cb7ee8 No.529422
>>529414
I know, just saying that this isn't a guess, I've looked at their equipment. They couldn't defend from Russia or even Turkey invading them. The EU couldn't invade anyone else because they have no expeditionary naval ability, and no actual army.
feb17f No.529423
>>529415
Every military has contingency plans like that.
4cfd15 No.529438
>>529422
But they have all those A400s for air-lifting. Oh, wait.
c85708 No.529468
>>529438
Btw is there a reason nobody makes turboprops at the size of C-5 and An-124?
c90fb5 No.529473
>>529352
> In a way, creating a unified mega army.
Bwahahaha.
It's n+1 accord of that type, it will amount to exactly nothing especially now that UK GTFO (being roughly 1/4 of EU war potential).
Sweden no later than last week despite being one of the most vocal proponent of "integrating and uniformed EU defenses", having signed countless agreement in favor of this, decided to buy US made Patriots instead of SAMP/T (cheaper, better; EU made, what their own army recommended to buy).
c85708 No.529479
>>529352
>How will the EU fuck this up?
With muslim enlisted.
b78c15 No.529490
>>529473
>(Sweden) decided to buy US made Patriots instead of SAMP/T
Wait, wtf? Are they planning on issuing the M1871 Mauser as their new service rifle too?
That AA missile was about the only good thing to come out of EU defence negotiations, even if Britain, France, and Italy couldn't agree on what they wanted to shoot it from The Type 45 and Horizon Class are kind of awesome
f55ec2 No.529500
>>529385
>I'm calling them the Wehrmacht because they'll be taking their orders from Berlin and enforcing the will of a government that the majority of the continent did not elect and has no say in
Still inaccurate. Also democracy is cancer.
8aebdd No.529510
>>529479
>Enlisted
You mean Muslim officer's don't you? And NCO's! Praying to Allah will get you everything you need because you're a minority!
8aebdd No.529514
>>529473
This EU army will be extremely good for American business, they'll most likely base themselves off of the US military industrial complex. And only the US has the capability to arm itself and other super powers with these weapons. The US won't be spending billions for European defense and will get lovely kickback's to our industry.
AMERICAN STEEL AND AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS!
7e655b No.529524
>>529385
>Berlin ordering things
Last time I checked Brussels ordered things around, quite limp dicked at that.
e7496c No.529531
>>529352
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
THIS CANT BE HAPPENING
cb7ee8 No.529533
>>529531
Relax you can probably crush them.
e7496c No.529534
>>529418
>Also does anyone have a list of who agreed to this? All articles just say 20 something countries. I would be shocked if Poland agreed to this.
>Polska poprze apel o stworzenie PESCO, jeśli tylko nowa struktura będzie otwarta dla wszystkich zainteresowanych i nie będzie konkurencyjna wobec NATO. Natomiast decyzja o tym, czy w tej inicjatywie będziemy uczestniczyć, jeszcze nie zapadła. – To jest w Warszawie sprawa delikatna i skomplikowana
<poland will join if structure isnt conflicting with nato by that they mean that they will strenghten eastern flank because fuck russia and will be open to all interested in cooperating
<decision about us partaining in this project isnt taken yet: its a delicate matter in warsaw
they dont know. and knowing that they are jews and traitors as always just a bit better ones then what rest of the world has we probably will be in that circuss.
i really dont want any fucking smell niggers and insane sand cultists on my turf. if it leads to it, there will be blood.
46661f No.529552
>>529531
TBH Poland is only military power in the region besides Finland UK and Russia that's worth a damn. Good job Poland, you've into regional power in most powerful continent.
e7496c No.529585
>>529552
except for the fact that our airpower is "lacking" and we have virtually no navy
f01638 No.529593
>>529419
Considering that I could end up v& for naming the ((( ))), I'm still not touching that.
f01638 No.529595
>>529500
Your dubs notwithstanding, monarchism a shit.
e7496c No.529597
>>529595
>>529500
there is only one correct system
a5da6f No.529600
What kind of cuck do you have to be to enlist in something like this?
744356 No.529608
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>529600
>What kind of cuck do you have to be to enlist in something like this?
19eb1e No.529614
EU's gonna fuck this up by deciding to "liberate" Russia from that meanie-headed homophobe Putin by invading through Belarus (I get a sense that Macron wants to be a Globalist Napoleon in the same way Merkel is looking to be a Globalist Wilhelm II)- and then proceed to get the absolute shit kicked out of them through the combined forces of CSTO and General Winter so badly that everything highlighted in pic related will be one Russian nation.
The best part is the USA won't do anything because Merkel and Macron were perfectly willing to give up their NATO protection for the sake of a Rapefugee-lead defense pact.
d2ca84 No.529615
It's simple.
>many countries already can't pay EU dues
>EU decides to make military
>increased tax burden means either Germany foots the bill or other nations disarm their national militaries
>???
>German-controlled European superstate
02f460 No.529616
>>529373
>>529600
There are enough people in prisons and enough communist/globalists to fill the ranks for sure.
>>529383
It's not a matter of wanting to die. It is a matter of killing and dying or getting you and/or your family killed by comissars. Just the way it was done in Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Cambodia. Best of all, whatever attrocities this army does will be shrugged off and given the blessing of EU and UN. In the same manner how Pol Pot's happy genocide tour was more or less blessed by the fucking United Nations and the US government.
>>529614
That would be one of the better scenarios for the reason this army's existance. However, the way they are doing this whole things points towards this army being created to fight european citizenry.
3dfbc2 No.529620
>>529352
>shake off us dependence
good fucking riddance
maybe you will be less cucked as a result
3e35a3 No.529625
fuck and i wanted to reenlist next year
im not gonna die for the eu kikes
b1f208 No.529630
>>529352
Fucking with Russia and having too much committee bullshit, I see France being the first one to say "Fuck you" and leaving as they usually do with anything, like NATO and the Eurofighter program.
So with that they'll be left with Germany and a bunch of broke countries that have never had any type of huge military campaigns on their own in the past 50 years.
>>529468
Gearboxes get heavy as fuck and the props would be too large, to provide thrust unless they go with a contrarotary system. funny Airbus didn't realize this and used a weird propfan thing which is why they look so odd
if you make a turbine engine that big, you're better off with a high bypass turbofan anyway since it's smaller.
You're also way better off trying to get 2 engines to do the job rather than 4 (less points of failure)
inb4 someone talks about the PW1000 series
the tip speed of the fan in those far exceed those of the propeller that would be needed for an aircraft at this size so less mass and a much smaller gearbox
a699b8 No.529639
>>529373
>>529383
>>529600
>implying it's going to be staffed by fucking Europeans
The German military is already 1/5th foreign.
>>529418
Could we be looking at another Battle of Karansebes in the future?
bc517c No.529643
>>529352
Exclusive contract with Lockheeb Martin
9ed622 No.529682
>>529630
Thanks, mate. That was very educational.
68d85f No.529684
>unified mega army
>EU
>one of the few countries capable of pulling their own weight already left
Just wait for France to leave, EU army will be sub sahara tier
f01638 No.529688
>>529684
Military powers in Europe without the UK
>France
>Poland
>Maybe Germany and Italy, if they get a few years of rebuilding and investment, and in Germany's case a heavy duty uncuckening.
Cutting the last two we have two nations with a rather established sense of pride, and who are both unlikely to hand over the keys of their military (for different reasons but still). The EU military will either just be a parade force to look cute at public events, or more accurately described as a paramilitary mercenary police force used by the EU to 'stabilise' 'troubled regions' by 'pacifying' 'dangerous extremists'.
68d85f No.529690
>>529688
Let's be honest here, despite our "based Polan savior of the white race :DDD" posting Poland is just not capable of doing really anything outside their own borders. There are two powers in Eurabia, and those are UK and France. Everyone else barely registers as a regional power. The UK has everyone in the US batting for them despite every time we have in the past ending in disaster, and honhonhon ui ui baguette has tight control over most of sub sahara and the resources that come with it. We both know Germany despite their power on paper is still mostly impotent and italy is.. Italy
So in the end the ones holding the UN together are the UK and France. The UK is mostly gone, so now we just need to wait for France to say something pretentious and then leave like they always have
68d85f No.529691
>>529690
EU not UN
Though it still works in a way
c2a61a No.529694
>>529688
The french army is exhausted. It has run at 133% compared to it's budget for nearly two decades now.
The french MoD announced they have an outstanding debt of 55 billions € to suppliers… that's over a year and a half of it's full budget! It's de facto broke and it threatens to take down the french defense industry (so most of the EU defense industry really) with it (one can only cash in fake checks for real gear for so long).
Italian army still sort of work, but they were always geared toward defending Europe from the Balkans threat so they're not coming to rescue Germany or Poland from Russia any time soon.
Their navy is quite often overlooked but I'm pretty sure it's currently bigger than the UK (and more modern than the french, or just as much)…
Problem is political, nobody sane wants to rely on Italy for defense. Italy has spent the last 18 centuries always siding with whoever is the strongest when SHTF.
They would actually ally with Russia in a heartbeat if they actually thought they're gonna win.
That leaves Poland (mostly running around with slavshit), Spain (busy gearing for a civil war), Greece and Turkey (too busy gearing to fight each other).
Portugal is actually one of the countries that pull it's (small) weight (at least they did before the 2008 crisis) but they haven't signed the thing.
The German army is the longest running gag of the EU.
02f460 No.529695
>>529688
>The EU military will either just be a parade force to look cute at public events, or more accurately described as a paramilitary mercenary police force used by the EU to 'stabilise' 'troubled regions' by 'pacifying' 'dangerous extremists
It is rather interesting to see how they are accelerating this shit in the wake of "local military officers not being loyal enough to governments that are replacing the native population and reducing them to serfdom"-news from Germany, Britain and Austria.
3e35a3 No.529705
>>529688
>poland
butthurtland would die an deaths after a second of russian invasion
9ed622 No.529712
>>529694
It's simple.
We remove Turkey and Greece becomes the new military powerhouse.
f01638 No.529730
>>529690
>italy is.. Italy
True, but they're about the only ones with any interest in (re)building a serious Mediterranean fleet - which would be a rather significant military development for all of south Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, and potentially even Russia depending on how close they get to Constantinople (and Russia's route out of the Black Sea). They'd need a shitload of EU money (EU money rather than Italian money because, well, Italy is Italy) to actually do that, but it would be a major development if it happened.
They've also got a long history of military cooperation with Germany :^)
>>529694
Shit, I didn't realise things were *that* bad over the channel. I honestly hope you guys can find a way out of that, it looks like you're going to need your military fairly soon.
>nobody sane wants to rely on Italy for defense. Italy has spent the last 18 centuries always siding with whoever is the strongest when SHTF
True, that might actually be the one good argument for an EU army "It'll keep Italy from doing their usual thing".
>>529695
>local military officers not being loyal enough to governments that are replacing the native population and reducing them to serfdom
I hadn't seen those articles, but I wouldn't be at all surprised. Does anybody have a source for this?
>>529712
>We remove Turkey and Greece becomes the new military powerhouse.
Only if you reinstate the Varangians.
e7496c No.529733
a27163 No.529740
>The EU is militarising
I wonder how long until they try and invade the UK for daring to leave.
f01638 No.529758
>>529740
>MFW trident might actually be useful.
02f460 No.529768
>>529730
Generally speaking, only the most notable cases get to news. The best I can tell is that similar purges have been carried out in Finland too, one case that I know of was that a guy got kicked out of territorial troops for having wrong political opinions. I do suspect that similar cases will increase in a rather dramatical fashion once the "Patriot Act, fingolian boogaloo"-gets passed through, and police gets more resources for the investigation and prosecution of "hate-speech"/political wrong-thinking.
https://news.sky.com/story/alleged-neo-nazis-arrested-over-terror-plot-11021360
https://archive.fo/Fr3z0
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4451722/German-army-officer-arrested-terror-plot.html
https://archive.fo/88HSd
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-soldiers-false-flag-arrests-refugees-assassinate-plot-far-right-left-wing-politicians-terror-a7726676.html
https://archive.fo/IcRrH
9ed622 No.529769
>>529730
Sure why not?
After all the few remaining uncucked white-cis male Swedes will need to retreat somewhere when Scandinavia goes full pozzpocalypse.
cb7ee8 No.529813
>>529684
>one of the few countries capable of pulling their own weight already left
UK hasn't been capable of pulling their own weight since the early 2000s. They have to share military with france, which is a fancy way of saying they depend on france for protection but france doesn't depend on them.
They need to bring back harriers and make more than a few hundred tanks.
edf1ef No.529857
>>529813
Military cuts have completely wrecked our Navy as well, not even sure if we could defend ourselves in an invasion scenario anymore
cb7ee8 No.529859
>>529857
Buy 1,000 Bastion AShM from Belarus.
Also buy 100,000 amphibious vehicles from China or Russia, you can literally drive to France in tiny boats of hate like the Vikings did and steal all their (white) women.
cb7ee8 No.529865
>>529859
By the way export version of Bastion is 8.3 million per missile, each has a 200 mile effective range, 550lb warhead, mach 2.5 speed
A east bloc amphib vehicle costs about $100,000 new.
That means 10 billion for vehicles and 8.3 billion for missiles for a total of 18.3 billion to make our Queen safe from the god damn continentals.
This is less than the price of the two QE's and their F-35 complement.
4e8d03 No.529904
>>529352
>How will the EU fuck this up?
>>529355
>By arguing over who gets to foot the bill.
Spot on. How many don't meet their NATO funding requirements right now? It's only a few. The rest have relied on the US to be their body guard for decades and diverted the money they would have spent on defense to social programs. In effect, we've been financing the social democrats and labor party policies of Europe by protecting them at our expense. If they went their own way they'd have to either spend more on their military or get conquered by angry Saudis fleeing the kingdom when it collapses over succession.
edf1ef No.529909
>>529859
>>529865
Need people to crew them though. a BTR 50 has 2 crew members, which would mean we would need 200k trained crew members just to sail over to France, not including the 20 or so lads in the back, we would need an army of around 20 Million to fill the entire fleet up, and if we paid said troops the average wage it would cost around £600bn a year.
I feel the 2 QE's and a few F35's might be more economical.
0385b8 No.529935
>>529909
Just wait until the Caliphate has seized their houses and taken all their money for Jizya. They'll be willing to swim the channel if it means they can raid French pantries.
c2a61a No.529944
>>529904
>How many don't meet their NATO funding requirements right now?
>It's only a few.
It's everyone.
Even France isn't up to 2% GPD in structural defense spending since 2011/2012.
e7496c No.529962
>>529857
> not even sure if we could defend ourselves in an invasion scenario anymore
too late m8
e7496c No.529963
>>529944
poland and greece pay their dues. thats it
and not really because spending was calculated by percent money from previous year
if i understand legalese and that whole situation this is not a case anymore and we will be gradually increasing spending to 3% of projected GDP of any given year
1796f6 No.529964
>>529935
At that point we'd be far more busy cleaning house than wanting to invade France and given the state of France they'd likely be doing the same thing.
7e655b No.529996
>>529909
Its called investing in the future, so when things become feudal again you can go pillage and rape Normandy like the old days.
e7496c No.530001
>>529996
wasnt it the other way around?
cb7ee8 No.530002
>>529909
100,000 vehicles is a bit much, I was just going overboard.
In reality if you get 10k Vodniks (2+4 lads and equipment) plus 3.3k of Sprut (3 lads), that's only 70k lads. They have the fuel to sail across with 1/4 fuel left to drive around in France, have some boats come with them to refuel. They can fire while sailing, so they're perfect little raid boats.
>I feel the 2 QE's and a few F35's might be more economical.
You can bomb it, you can strafe it, you can cover it with poison, you can turn it into glass, but you don't own it unless your infantry's on it and the other guy's isn't.
The QEs can't even raid, much less invade a place. And they sure as hell can't protect the actual country.
3c6836 No.530003
>>529705
>No flag
Nice try, Khmelnytsky
787994 No.530007
As a Bong I cant wait to destroy some esperanto wogs if the EU army ever gets lairy. Only France is a threat.
When we were arguing for Brexit people laughed at us and called us paranoid for saying the EU wants to build an army which we want no part of. Funny how things work out.
>>529373
Mark my words, the army is going to be a big old multicultural (read: Islamic) stick that Brussels will use to beat down any lairy member states who tear down their national defenses and let those lovely vibrant migrants in. Europeans have moral issues about suppressing other Europeans nationalist protests. Muslims dont give a shit and infact relish the chance to kill the only White men with balls left on the continent. It's the Roman Empire and it's foreign legions all over again.
787994 No.530008
7e655b No.530011
>>530001
Went both ways like a mentally ill person.
b543ae No.530012
>>530003
>Khmelnytsky
"Butthurt belt of Europe" is a commie Russian maymay that includes us as well, so no way it's his ghost. Sage for offtopic.
058187 No.530018
>>529690
>>529730
>>529694
>italy is italy
>allied with strongest for the last 18 centuries
>lel true
what the fuck do the jews teach you about history these days?
Italy was created in 1861 and yeah, nothing good happened to it since.
18 centuries ago the Roman empire was at its maximum expansion and was starting to have internal issues, the 3rd century after christ is the age of the tetrarchy - when the empire was divided into 4, ruled by 2 Caesars and 2 Augusti, when the civil wars happened. That age culminated in Constantine's decision to convert to Christianity in 311, the beginning of the 4th century.
"italy" still was the strongest power in the world for centuries after that, until the rise of the British empire.
>lost war, was useless
no doubt. Italy lost the war to infiltrators and traitors, among which the commanders of elite military units, fallen to propaganda, the promise of "democracy" and "freedom", and doubtful about the German's ability to win on the eastern front, whom deliberately would send reinforcements where they were not needed and leave vulnerable the areas targeted by the allies. Not to mention the infiltrators (and commie rebels) sabotaging communications and supply lines, leaving frontier soldiers utterly abandoned, with no news, replacements, supplies or support - good luck keeping the will to fight a war you didn't want in the first place in such a situation.
f01638 No.530028
>>530007
>When we were arguing for Brexit people laughed at us and called us paranoid for saying the EU wants to build an army which we want no part of. Funny how things work out.
The funny thing is that the original date for the announcement of this was scheduled for the day before the British Independence Referendum. Brussels inexplicably decided to push the announcement back after the referendum date was announced.
c2a61a No.530037
>>530018
>Italy was created in 1861 and yeah, nothing good happened to it since.
Italians had states long before that, the birth of modern Italy isn't the birth of the Italian nation.
>>530018
>18 centuries ago the Roman empire was at its maximum expansion and was starting to have internal issues, the 3rd century after christ is the age of the tetrarchy - when the empire was divided into 4, ruled by 2 Caesars and 2 Augusti, when the civil wars happened. That age culminated in Constantine's decision to convert to Christianity in 311, the beginning of the 4th century.
Which is exactly when they started allying themselves with whoever was the more powerful locally instead of relying on their own values and inner strength as a civilization.
Which has been a constant and a real political doctrine of Italians ever since, that is etched in their collective psyche same as paranoia is to the Russians or fucking with any authority just because you can is to the French.
No reason to fight an enemy you can just pay to go away or be friend with, that's how the Italians, as a fairly unified culture, has survived countless military invasions by different peoples: they don't give a fuck about who is dominating and they keep doing their thing anyway until whoever invaded is either assimilated themselves or GTFO.
cb7ee8 No.530038
>>530012
>commie russian meme
What?
Butthurt belt is a German meme from Krautchan.
869b91 No.530044
>>530037
>or finding ways to manipulate, exploit and expand any authority, so it caters to your whims, just because you can, is to the French.
Ftfy.
Anyway, love your posts.
4cfd92 No.530050
>>530038
But it's used by vatniks to describe Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, etc.
058187 No.530081
>>530037
>the birth of modern Italy isn't the birth of the Italian nation
It is exactly that, and you seem oddly confused on the definition of nation and its difference compared to a "city state".
>>530037
>allying with whoever was more powerful locally
literally pulling it out of your ass. Map related.
In pink "senatorial" provinces, in red "imperial" provinces and in yellow "client" provinces.
Senatorial provinces had been fully integrated and were extended roman citizenship and full priviledges, they were "equals" in today's faggy terms, Imperial provinces were territories either strategic for military purposes or that had experienced revolts/weren't fully integrated from which Rome conscripted manpower.
They didn't "ally" nor relied on "local powers", no such thing existed. Nor did they in the future, with the exception of the crusades.
Once the empire fell the various city states still controlled most of the mediterranean trade and of the wealth of Europe until the discovery of the "new world", hence were central for everyone's survival and prosperity - thus various european groups that formed in time had vested interest in them (especially Venice and Genoa), plus shared ideological/religious views (and language) and vastly relied on them for education. When the economic influence started declining as trade expanded to the US, Italy shifted its focus (even further than it did already) onto education and art - then the Renaissance happened, then the unification, then british piracy and ww1.
>etched in their collective psyche
you know nothing.
>how they survived countless military invasion
the Vatican is how Italy survived this long in spite of every people on the planet wanting to put a mark above Rome or wanting to be "new" Rome. Nobody ever dared attack the Church as it would have caused the rest of the Christian world to unite to fuck them up.
South was invaded and conquered for a couple centuries, north was invaded and burnt to the ground (by your crazed thieving dwarf leader, Napoleon, frenchfaggot).
e7496c No.530097
>>530081
thats the most retarded thing i saw in a good while. good job
cb7ee8 No.530099
>>530081
By that logic USA is the oldest country in the world because it's isolated so no one attacked it, and it didn't change it's mind about what it was in awhile. Or maybe San Marino, it did have a few changes, but was officially founded before USA.
>>530050
Their bigger neighbors arent the only people that dislike members of the butthurt belt. Even other butthurt belters call each other butthurt belt somehow as banter. It's used by everyone who sees them being butthurt.
>>530097
This thread is really special
058187 No.530102
>>530097
not an argument
>>530099
what the hell are you even talking about? Who is oldest has nothing to do with what's being discussed. what logic? That nations weren't nations before the creation of the notion of nations? that's literally just history. As is everything else in the post.
Its fundamental concepts that make the difference, in a nation, the governing entity is representative and property of its people (supposedly), in a monarchy/empire/etc the king doesn't represent the people, just himself, whom the people are subjects (property) of.
7d8856 No.530105
>>530081
I must agree with others, it's extremely retarded. Just to pick out this one:
>Italy shifted its focus (even further than it did already) onto education and art - then the Renaissance happened
The so-called "renaissance" was a period that started well before the discovery of the New World. And in practice it was just a few snobs who thought that they will be able to claim that DEY WUZ ROMANZ'N'SHIIEET if they start copying old stuff they found lying around in Italy. In practice what they did had nothing to do with actual Greco-Roman art. From trivial things like how all those white marble statues were originally painted in bright colours; to the incredibly deep differences between putting isolated bodies that only exist in their own little moment in a relief, and painting a picture where what's going on in the background simply can't be ignored, it's simply not the same thing.
>>530102
You seem to believe that all cultures have the same definitions. A Western nation has nothing to do with the idea of ancient city states, and it's also different from the later religious state that Rome turned into by the time it became Christian.
First Rome was indeed a city state, and you had to go to Rome to have an effect on the Roman Empire. This system was simply unsuited for governing an empire, and that's why the whole thing with Caesar and co happened. But even with the emperor at the head of a "collection of systems" that was the Roman Empire, they were simply not that good at this stuff. Luckily they had the much older civilization of Egypt with its good administration. They could use that to ship enough corn to the city of Rome to keep things in control, at least for a while.
Later these systems (or the Roman Empire, as they are known) started to break down, and the population was first turning to the gods originating from Egypt, and later towards various religions from the Middle East. They also took up the Middle Eastern way of defining themselves primarily by their religion, which eventually led to the need to marry their religion and state. And in Rome Christianity win that fight. So instead of a city state the Roman Empire was now the state of Christians. Or more like a state of Mediterranean Christians. But they weren't the only one, the jews also turned into the city-dwelling scum we all know and hate during these centuries. Also, Islam is just a later part of these developments. Really, Byzantium have in common with the Moslem caliphates than with the European kingdoms, both in its statecraft and the religious way of looking at the world.
Meanwhile the various (mostly Germanic) tribes and the random populations that were living in the ruins of the Eastern Roman Empire formed completely different states that were centered around dynasties. They also took up some form of Christianity from the Roman Empire, but in practice the only common point was the reading of the Vulgata. And Italy was one of these kingdoms first, then it fell into smaller states. But in practice they were still run by noble families who were mostly interested in the prosperity of their bloodlines.
Honestly, just read Decline of the West from Spengler. He has a very roundabout way of saying these things, but he does a surprisingly good job, because he really grinds the differences between various cultures into your mind.
058187 No.530116
>>530105
the confusion is just stunning. You, and others, simply blank over huge developments and conflate concepts that aren't related, or invert them altogether.
At least, you construe an argument.
>they thought they wuz romans n shieet
they were no more than post imperial romans, but that's beside the point. The point of the renaissance wasn't "we wuz painters and sculptors n shieet" but rather to realign society with the pursuit of virtue which made Rome great, rather than wealth, power or bitches (i.e. proto-capitalism, or better yet, plutocracy, as Venice became in time) in order to rebuild the glory of the past.
>you seem to believe all cultures have the same definitions
Please, no kikey relativism. While not incorrect, it is neither correct. "nationalism" and "nation" are very specific terms and the meaning isn't a matter of interpretation.
>Rome was a city state
Rome was a kingdom, then a republic, then an empire, then a city state (the vatican). It was the republic that was unsuitable to ruling the expanded territory. And even that is cutting it extremely short, there was a triumvirate (the "caesar & co shit") and a tetrarchy (respectively 3 and 4 rulers) at some points. Athens was a city state. Majority of post imperial Italian city states were oligarchies - which is much more similar to mafia clans than a "nation".
>they were simply not that good at this stuff
Factually untrue for a billion reasons
>Egypt with its good administration
What? god-kings ruling with an iron fist - over a relatively small territory of mostly desert? How do you go about saying they had "good administration" and Rome "wasn't good at it"?
>supplied food
Come on now…it was one of the many suppliers, not even the biggest. The reason it was a main supplier for the city of Rome itself is only logistics: it's easier to transport shit by boat than it is to haul it with fukken mules across the Alps.
>in Rome christianity won that fight
Christianity wasn't fighting anything, for a century before conversion there were civil wars (the tetrarchy I mentioned twice before now) among 4 internal factions, one of which, the dynasty of Constantine - Augustus of the orient, converted to Christianity (exactly for its peaceful and cooperative nature) as a means to bring peace and reunite a fracturing Empire from an intensifying brother v brother conflict for dominance.
>the jews turned into city dwelling scum
That's from a related development. Judea was one of the imperial provinces as you can check on the map above, because of their constant insurrections. At about the same period we're discussing, they pioneered the "golem army" by convincing Persia to attack and take Judea, which they did. They then slaughtered the local Christians, Persia stopped them and gave Jerusalem back to the Christians, Jews kvetched and went back to Rome for forgiveness, whom conquered Judea again and scattered the Jews away from "their land" as punishment (aka the great fuckup - leading to them infiltrating everywhere)
>more similar to the Muslims than anything
You have that backwards, Momo the goatfucker drew from and mixed elements of greek, roman, egyptian and christian societies to form his own personal army of fanatics.
cb7ee8 No.530126
>>530102
>>530116
This level of butthurt is stunning.
058187 No.530127
>>530105
forgot two points
>renaissance started before new world
>by snobs
Google incorrectly teaches its from 1300 to 1700, as I assume your school did.
The renaissance didn't just pop into existence on a wave of "we wuz", it evolved from an earlier movement called humanism (1300-1400)-> https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umanesimo_rinascimentale
Not to be confused with the kiked up version of 1900 -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism,
inspired by Francesco Petrarca (1304-1374) whom was a philosopher and author son of a notary, not a noble, and was exactly the opposite of a snob; he wrote of tales of every day people and virtue, heavily criticizing/ridiculizing lords and snobs. Also a close friend of Dante, author of the divine comedy (inferno, purgatory and paradise) whom placed VIPs, including the pope, in hell with the sinners, common people in purgatory and virtuous in heaven.
Humanism is what led to Renaissance, after 2 centuries and many great works of art and literature, hence my "after the new world discovery".
7d8856 No.530137
>>530116
>You, and others, simply blank over huge developments and conflate concepts that aren't related
Do you mean huge developments like Rome turning from a city of more than a million souls into a collection of ruins where only a few herders lived? And then it was conquered by Germanic tribes who had nothing to do with the previous inhabitants? I think you are the one who thinks it was just some small episode.
>the pursuit of virtue which made Rome great
What virtue?
rather than wealth, power or bitches
>So real politik don't real?
>proto-capitalism
Capitalism is quite a specific thing, there were no companies that were led by people thinking in dynamics, instead they were people collecting things.
>in order to rebuild the glory of the past.
The renaissance was an artistic movement with minor influence on the actual politics of the time.
>Please, no kikey relativism.
It's not relativism to see that different cultures are different.
>"nationalism" and "nation" are very specific terms and the meaning isn't a matter of interpretation.
And by these very specifications you should be able to see that their ideas were utterly alien.
>Rome was a kingdom, then a republic, then an empire, then a city state (the vatican).
Would you say something similar about Istanbul if it was still called Byzantium? Because by the same logic that whole thing with the crusaders and the Ottomans shouldn't have any impact on that city.
>Athens was a city state.
Just like Rome before the Roman Empire turned into an empire of Christians. Athens "enslaved"d most of the Greek world with the system of the Delian League, effectively turning into an empire. Yet it was still just a city state. The main difference is that Athens only had control over other city states, while Rome conquered territories without city states, and so they had to use a different method of taxation there.
>Factually untrue for a billion reasons
List them all. They had to abandon their old religion just to keep it together for a few hundred years, only to be destroyed by mere who were pushed into their territory. Of course Byzantium survived for longer, but by the point Byzantium became a thing it had nothing to do with the Romans of old.
>god-kings ruling with an iron fist
Would you call a corporation inefficient because the CEO rules with an iron fist? Their civilization was some 2000 years old by that point, and you also have to add the ~1000 years that it takes to develop a civilization. Just look at how their taxation and economic life looked like: peasants deposited their corn in central granaries and got tokens that entitled them to take out the same amount they deposited. And they could use those tokens to pay their taxes. To exchange goods among each others they didn't use money, but a complex system of barter. They didn't even have gold coins until the Greeks introduced them around BC 500, and even then they just integrated them into their system of barter.
Now, the Roman system of taxation for the provinces was to literally sell the right to rob a province for one year to somebody, and let him bother with it. Does that sound like a sustainable system? No, and really it wasn't. Their whole economy was based on getting as much as possible, and melting it down to little shiny pieces that they could collect to their heart's content. Spengler even theorizes that they needed all those slaves because they could serve as an alternative to gold coins. And indeed, most of the slaves only did menial labour in households, and they were only there to flaunt the wealth of the pater dominus.
7d8856 No.530139
>over a relatively small territory of mostly desert
So you don't even know the first thing about Egypt. It wasn't an arid desert until the Islamic conquest, because Arab goat herders literally brought in so many goats that they destroyed the local fauna. Before that Egypt was quite a nice place with lots of trees around the Nile.
>The reason it was a main supplier for the city of Rome itself is only logistics: it's easier to transport shit by boat than it is to haul it with fukken mules across the Alps.
So Rome couldn't even sustain itself with the resources available in Italy. And it's true that wasn't the only source, but it was the single greatest source. And even then, most of the rest came from other parts of North Africa, a territory where they only had to conquer the existing city states.
>Christianity wasn't fighting anything
Expect all the other similar religions that didn't became the sate religion.
>You have that backwards, Momo the goatfucker drew from and mixed elements of greek, roman, egyptian and christian societies to form his own personal army of fanatics.
What elements? They just used the same way of defining themselves by their religion, and succeeded with sheer ruthlessness. There is nothing from the Greeks or Egyptians in this.
By the way, if we mention Greek, let's not forget how the language of Byzantium wasn't even Latin.
>>530127
>as I assume your school did
No, according to my education it's between the gothic and the baroque style. The problem is of course that most of Europe didn't experience anything from this supposed reborn of art, so for them it was just a slow transition from gothic to baroque art. Actually, even most of Italy didn't experience it. So you can put it wherever you want in those centuries, because it was mostly just a few Italians playing pretend. Although they did have some influence on the nobles of Hungary and Poland.
>he wrote of tales of every day people and virtue, heavily criticizing/ridiculizing lords and snobs.
And in the end of the day it was the lords who decided what matters, for real politik and life are virtually the same for a man of action. By the way, most of the artists were also financed by these very same lords.
>Humanism is what led to Renaissance
Renaissance is about art, the philosophic part of the equation is humanism. It's true that humanism led to renaissance, but if you want to speak about the philosophy, then say humanism, not renaissance.
57e853 No.530140
>>530038
Kraut /int/ has always been massively infested with Russian sosachers you silly leaf.
b543ae No.530141
>>530140
Sorry, forgot about the VPN.
87a102 No.530148
>>530140
/int/ has always been shit
44820c No.530149
cb7ee8 No.530168
>>530140
>>530141
>everyone who hates with me is a russian
Have you considered you might be an asshole who is hated by everyone?
>>530149
It's not really dues, it's more like the standards of the club. Imagine forming a baccarat club but 3/4 of the members lacked a full deck.
7d8856 No.530216
>>530137
>pater dominus
Correction: the term I was looking for is the pater familias.
869b91 No.530223
The Nile was, and still is, fertile and rich for agriculture, even if the Arabs fucked it up.
How can someone not know that former Carthaginian and Egyptian regions where the breadbasket of the Roman Empire? Tons of grain, nigga.
b97787 No.530307
>>530216
is this the ukranian who got butthurt and raged against a leaf over their respective flags?
>>530223 Tempted to say US history doesn't teach about the world but I'd be lying.