/fit/ - Fitness, Health, Exercise, Dieting, etc

>>140642

>Mr. Starting Strength man said milk was absolutely necessary, and a big intake too, for gaining strength.

>BUT I keep seeing people say now that milk is actually bad and estrogenic

Now hold on here. Are you guilty of being too lazy to use your own brain and do your own research? Put the claims in perspective.

Mark Rippetoe probably isn't so dogmatic as to suggest milk is the only way, but it's true he highly recommends it. Does he say why? It couldn't be because of the nutritional value of milk which is public knowledge easily found through the most basic of searches, could it? Because if it is, that's a very specific thing you could check with minimal energy spent and go along your merry way once you find the answer.

As for the bad and estrogenic claim, who is saying it and why are they saying it? Are they failing to point to a specific piece of evidence to support this idea? "It's bad, mmkay." is hardly worrying. Why would you listen to anyone that can't be specific and just wants to throw FUD in your face? We know why fitness people who recommend milk are recommending it: it's a good source of protein, calcium and other minerals, various vitamins, etc. Do you know why someone has said it's estrogenic? They couldn't have certain agendas and biases could they? Did you know protein fuels the liver and the liver is responsible for metabolizing random estrogens so they can be excreted? Did you know milk has androgens in it too? Did you know almost every living thing that people eat—whether plant or animal—makes hormonal substances that play androgenic and estrogenic roles if they are not the exact same androgens and estrogens we humans make?

Mammals didn't evolve tits to make their offspring gay with gynecomastia. They did so to feed their young. Next time you eat a steak are you gonna worry about the hormone ratios in the meat because it was a steer that had its balls cut off? (Steers probably have less estrogen btw, because the gonads make estrogen.) Liver health is often what you should focus on to avoid prolonged influences from estrogenic substances. Now if there is some food which you think is highly estrogenic, maybe it's not worth eating, but first establish that idea scientifically and put it in perspective by comparing it to other foods.

>>140644

And yes, there is estrogen in milk (testosterone too). It's almost as if milk came from a living creature that makes hormones. Did you know men make estrogens too? Uh oh, what do we do about that? It doesn't help when many people poorly understand the biological role of estrogens to begin with.

Meurant, G. (1995). Handbook of Milk Composition. Elsevier Science.

https://books.google.com/books?id=MAbQjY0ppgQC&pg=PA479&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

There are many reasons people are extremely cautious about excessive estrogens, and I agree with them. Normal living isn't possible without some estrogen though, as male fertility depends on it. The reason I point this out because it establishes that the mere presence of something estrogenic isn't the end of the world. The question then becomes whether or not hormonal influences are in balance—not whether or not anything estrogenic is there in any amount. The other thing to establish is whether or not these are natural estrogens and not something biohazardous like the garbage found in many plastics.

Zhou, Qing, et al. Estrogen action and male fertility: roles of the sodium/hydrogen exchanger-3 and fluid reabsorption in reproductive tract function. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 98.24 (2001): 14132-14137.

https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.241245898

>Estrogen receptor α (ERα) is essential for male fertility. Its activity is responsible for maintaining epithelial cytoarchitecture in efferent ductules and the reabsorption of fluid for concentrating sperm in the head of the epididymis. These discoveries and others have helped to establish estrogen's bisexual role in reproductive importance.

There are other things which have estrogenic influences, and they don't necessarily act like estrogen simply by acting on an estrogen receptor. Estrogen creates edema or water retention, and other substances which do similar things could be seen as having estrogenic qualities:

Chan, Pak Hoo, and Robert A. Fishman. Brain edema: induction in cortical slices by polyunsaturated fatty acids. Science 201.4353 (1978): 358-360.

https://doi.org/10.1126/science.663662

>Deadlifts 6x more than he benches

Why is that included? Everyone, and I mean everyone can deadlift more than they bench

It is very important that any food products from ruminants (such as cows and sheep) are from grass-fed (ideally 100% grass-fed) animals. Grain-fed cows are mass-produced as efficiently as possible on an unnatural and unhealthy diet of GMO corn, soy, etc. and their milk and meat is definitely estrogenic and bad for you. But as long as you get grass-fed, you're fine. Dairy products should also ideally be raw because then they have beneficial probiotics and are more easily digestible.

Personally, I find dairy to be a fantastic supplementary source of calories and macronutrients for gaining weight. If you're trying to lose weight, then you should probably moderate dairy products other than butter/ghee.

>>140646

The ratio is more like 2:1 of deadlift to bench. Often less. If you deadlift far more than you‌ can bench, then that means you neglected your upper body. This is exactly what the fags do that stay on SS forever. My gymbro had a relatively weak bench until he changed to Canditoes program.