/co/ - Comics & Cartoons

How the West views Ying and Yang.

>So it is good and evil?

<It is a balance of…

>Good and Evil?

<NO! It is a balance between two opposing forces. Neither of them are inherity good or evil.

>I see good needs to be balanced with some evil.

<NO! Why would you want any amount of evil?

Jackie Chan adventures did some fun stuff with Chinese mythology. It did not go too deep, but show genrally managed to avoid relaying on generic Anglo folklore.

>>1033983

So its like how star wars handles the dark side and light side.

The chinese superman actually did use chi and yin and yang. Also, chinese mythology and some Korean mythology too.

>>1033986

>>1033990

I posted this somewhere else.

>Star Wars represents the West perception of good vs evil. The OT had the badguys be pointlessly evil and incompetent. The Prequels had this bullshit about balance between good and evil because the appropriate response to "Ying and Yang isn't about good and evil." is "So it is about good and evil?". Episode 7 reflects how people have to keep viewing themselves as the underdogs because the badguys can't be the underdog. Episode 8 is cancer. Blind faith is good. Good and evil creates each other. Nothing matters because Space Holy Spirit also works for the badguys. No one actually has morals; it is just a hidden integer representing your alignment which Luke can just check. No one consistently good enough not to try to kill his family in their sleep.

I once read a shitty 70's martial arts comic called Yang, from the art it looked like a Spanish artist, dunno if it was a translation. But it had hands down the most hilarious interpretation of Chinese philosophy I've read since Aleister Crowley tried translating the Tao Te Ching.

As the old master tells Yang, while showing him the yin/yang symbol, YANG IS GOOD! YIN IS EVIL!

I'm serious, that is about it.

>>1034055

>Charlton Comics

Looks like one of the many Master of Kung Fu/Bruce Lee/Iron Fist/Dragon's Fists/Kung Fu Fighter titles.

>>1034120

Raava and Vaatu shouldn't have existed in the first place.

>>1034139

The problem is that the spirits weren't ever supposed to be wholly good or evil. Korra's Wan arc just completely simplifies it like all spirits are good until Vaatu suddenly shows up and turns them evil. That's not how it worked in the first series and isn't how the eastern spiritual mindset works either. It's like they did zero research into their own show.

>>1034141

>The problem is that the spirits weren't ever supposed to be wholly good or evil. Korra's Wan arc just completely simplifies it like all spirits are good until Vaatu suddenly shows up and turns them evil. That's not how it worked in the first series and isn't how the eastern spiritual mindset works either. It's like they did zero research into their own show.

The Wan arc ruined everything but it was proof that the spirits can't directly co-exist with the humans. Which begs the question of who is the worst Avatar, Wan or Korra?

I'm imagining all of Toph's relationships went sour because she keeps talking about Sokka in bed.

>>1034155

I'd say that both were equally bad.

>>1034155

Wan for starting this whole mess instead of banishing the spirits in the first place. Since the Avatar is SUPPOSED TO BE the human incarnation of the spirit of the earth. And the spirits are practically invaders keeping humanity bunkered down on turtles. Logically, ignoring everything Korra retconned, Wan should be the Avatar that helps humanity reclaim their planet and then try to keep the peace as all these groups of people fight over land.

Then there's Korra who's done pretty much zero positive things for the world whatsoever.

>>1034160

Do what Bryke didn't. Study what you're basing your setting on.

>>1034164

I've actually been reading books about Hinduism in an effort to actually wrap my head around it, and it's definitely interesting. The fundamental eastern mindset can be easy to understand, but hard to put yourself into.

But in my setting, light and darkness haven't existed until about 300 years ago right before the apocalypse, so people are incredibly suspicious of "the dissonant elements".

>>1034160

Ying Yang has been an old pet peeve of mine because of how simple of a concept that it is yet routinely fucked up. In fact, thinking that Ying Yang is a battle of good and evil is still somewhat better than… you know.

>>1034170

But wikipedia is hard, anon.

>>1034157

One thing that bugged me is how the Wan section completely ignores that humans were originally supposed to be energy benders before bending elements.

>>1034206

That was just added in the last minute for Giant Blue Korra to trash Unalaq in the harbor.

>>1034229

I forgot to add that the people were energy bending thing works better before the first avatar retcon.

>>1034206

Yeah and the Lion Turtles were never even implied in the original show to be the ancient humans homes. It's ridiculous how little they care for their production to retcon all this lore. Might as well not even be an Avatar sequel.

>>1034139

>Unalaq never really explained good thing about the dark spirits. Just like the elements things, they brought up some Eastern reference to justify it.

Unalaq had no solid characterization. One minute he's some reactionary North Water Tribe supremacist who serves as Korra's "dark mentor" next he's her Uncle Claudius to her Hamlet and finally he's some cultist for a dark god. The show trying to make it look he had legitimate grievances all along is undermined by how he was working with Vaatu (without any background on what makes Unalaq trust him so) and we have at least one case of a dark spirit infestation coming from his sabotage.

>Even then they could just said that it was Civilization vs Nature or something.

They would just be aping Miyazaki's work (namely Princess Mononoke) even harder.

>>1034141

>Korra's Wan arc just completely simplifies it like all spirits are good until Vaatu suddenly shows up and turns them evil.

Oh it's not just Vaatu. Unalaq just showing up in the spirit world was warping it.

>That's not how it worked in the first series and isn't how the eastern spiritual mindset works either.

Remember Hai Bei the panda spirit? He's the best example of a TLA spirit who could have turned "dark", but how Aang deals with him isn't that he pulls out some some secret Avatar mojo and turns him light again but instead goes into his realm and talks with the beast. Actually treating Hei Bai like how kami and similar creatures have been in indigenous religions.

>>1034155

>The Wan arc ruined everything but it was proof that the spirits can't directly co-exist with the humans.

Which is silly since we see the ocean and moon spirits helping humanity, Wan Shi Tong hostile but willing to help until Team Avatar breaks his rules, and there's no actual segregation between man and spirit as far as spirits care (you don't see WST having to go through a portal to take his library back home). I ask what was the point of showing the ancient past between human and spirit as one of hate (besides Wan as a special snowflake human and the Proto-Air Nomads who are in line with Leftist affection for Buddhism) if they were going to push some pro-integration/multiculturalism/immigration propaganda with spirits.

>>1034206

The lion turtle said "WE" when talking about who used to bend energy. It looked like he was talking about his kind. Besides, having the humans learn bending most elements from lion turtles instead of a variety of beasts and celestial bodies is enough for listing retcons.

Energybending was just a bad idea even knowing that apparently the showrunners long planned for Aang to use some secret technique to take away Ozai's bending.

>>1034239

E;R had a theory/rant that Wan's developmental role was to be a reimagining of Aang among Beginnings' overall direction of remaking Avatar's setting to be mlre suitably Bryke's. Spirits are turned from the world's kami or sidhe to mons who humans are mean to, bending loses its significance spiritually to become mutant superpowers, and the Avatar is now a strongman to keep the meat eating tree killing humans in line.

>>1034230

Energybending should have never been invented. Aang should have just killed Ozai or at least Ozai should have fell to death (maybe after refusing Aang's aid ala Zhao). It's silly for Aang to talk with his past lives and learn that since he's the Avatar he can't put his Air Nomad teachings above the world (from another Air Nomad no less) only for him to meet a Lion Turtle who gets him a way to have his cake and eat it too. Legend of Korra doing nothing to show it was a good introduction backs this up.

>>1034257

But that's not the point of the thread.

>>1034141

> Korra's Wan arc just completely simplifies it like all spirits are good until Vaatu suddenly shows up

Fucking wrong. The spirits are 100% evil and in the middle of genociding humanity until Vaatu shows up and they start genociding humanity with more attitude.

>>1034408

I ask what they made spirits so hostile to humanity for. >>1034248 already pointed examples of friendly or at least negotiable spirits.

>>1034407

When it's Bryke he's in the right.

What do you think ATLA and TLOK would have been like if they'd been created by East Asian creators?

>>1034670

Less bad overall, hopefully.

>>1034670

Probably better and more faithful to the concepts of Eastern religions. Though I think there might be some variations depending on which country wrote it. If it was written by Chinese there might be some stuff about Taoism, or Chinese mythology. if it was written by Japanese people it might be more Zen Bhuddist and feature elements of Shintoism.

Bryke not only got Yin-Yang wrong but also got chaos wrong (as far as ancient civilizations saw it). Chaos was seen as formlessness, emptiness, nothingness. Not energy, dynamism, activity, but the utter lack of any energy or activity. A dead creature's form, decayed unto nothing. Obliteration. Disintegration. Returned to nothing.

On the flipside, order is not identical with control or rule in many ancient mythologies so much as structure. This is a time where the base state of nature as a very real and threatening untamed wilderness that might devour the city, shatter the bonds of trade and community, and ultimately set every human against each other. The Bronze Age world was a world of small villages and cities separated by vast stretches of lawless and dangerous wilderness. In this context Chaos is not a "welcome freedum" but "the city walls fall, bandits pour in and take the young females as slaves while maiming or murdering the rest" or "the sea rushes in and drowns our harvest." Not only is Vaatu a poor usage of primordial/deep chaos (which I think he was supposed to hint towards along with hinting at Yin and Satan) but so is Zaheer (just some edgy talk about guvmint being meanies).

>>1036205

And LoK happened which canceled it out.

Jackie Chan Adventures and Xiaolin Showdown?

I don't know how accurate they are, but they seem pretty Asian to me.

Also the PBS show with the talking cats

>>1036271

Jackie Chan was pretty cool with how they used the Chinese Zodiac. Can't speak of it in terms of Yin Yang though. Xioalin Showdown felt more manichean with it's morality despite the Asian aesthetic.

>>1036370

It turns out destroying Shendu is a bad idea since doing so unleashes an even greater monster.

What else is there? American Dragon Jake Long? Samurai Jack? …Hong Kong Phooey?

In comics, the martial arts books were Shang Chi, Richard Dragon, Sons of the Tiger, and Yang/House of Yang.

Eastern touches to cape books had Karma from The New Mutants, who had some kind of yin/yang thing going on with her costume, with part of the symbol appearing and disappearing at one point. Daredevil had the Ninja mini-series, where Stick was supposedly the reincarnation of a Japanese something or other.

Ronin was basically Samurai Jack.

Did Wonder Woman's 60's dalliance with martial arts go much into Eastern mysticism? Did Katana ever have her own book?

There was Kabuki, Shi, Shuriken, and Samurai (the old 80's Aircel comic), but hell if I know if they went into the mystical of philosophical side of chopping people up with swords and throwing ninja stars into people's foreheads.

There was a story in Marvel's Kung Fu magazine where Iron Fist travelled to a fantasy realm and, um, basically, you see, he fucked the Phoenix. Before it was even Jean Grey. So Scott got Danny's cosmic sloppy seconds.

And in the same magazine there was Swordquest, but it was more historical than mystical. There was a cool samurai ghost story with some spider demons, though.

In some Fin Fang Foom appearances he was more of a Chinese dragon, like Steve Gerber/Wilce Portacio Darkholders, and the John Romita Jr./John Byrne Iron Man.

I wouldn't call it the best depiction, but Kung Fu Panda at least tried to show eastern shit.

>>1036440

Samurai Jack had a strong Eastern presence. In the 5th season they really hammered that home. Though I do like the episode where he goes into the haunted Japanese castle.

>>1036442

That visual they did by turning the canon ball into the yin yang symbol was pretty cool.

Isn't Two-face supposed to be a Daoist?

>>1036535

I've never heard of that before. As a concept you could work his dual personalities with yin and yang but I think it has its limits.

>>1036631

It said so in his comic book religions article. Although it stated that he doesn't so much follow Daoism as embody it. He has been known to wear a yin/yang belt buckle, though.

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/TwoFace.html

The Chinese Superman comics DC had in Rebirth played with Yin and Yang in an interesting way. It felt like the guy writing it understood Chinese culture very well.

>>1038033

Always thought that guy should have joined Batman Inc.

>>1038209

>He thinks he doesn’t

When was the last time you pillaged anything?

>>1036370

>Can't speak of it in terms of Yin Yang though

One of the talismans split Jackie into yin and yang. One is a pathetic pushover and the other is an edgemaster. Both are still good people.

I don't respect other cultures enough to care whether the depictions are accurate.

>>1038498

I forgot about that one.