04053d No.664
Is what accurate? What doctrine is it meant to represent?
d79f1b No.665
>>664
I want to know if you think this is an accurate portrayal of the general protestant view of faith & works vs the general catholic view of faith & works
2edf46 No.705
Sacraments arent considered works, works are the same in protestant and Catholicism. Catholicism just doesnt have the doctrine "if you dont wanna do works your faith isnt real". You just do the works no matter what even if you dont want to.
87e5c4 No.707
>>705
>Sacraments arent considered works
why not?
2cbe56 No.717
>>665
"faith & works" is not a doctrine
d59729 No.723
>>707
Cause it's just not what they mean. Works are stuff like being a good loving person, keeping the commandments etc. Catholics dont think their sacrament is their works they think their actions are their works. Grace produces works. Sacrament gives you grace.
132af7 No.724
>>717
Are you being dense on purpose
Faith and works are each biblical concepts that interact
>>723
How can participation in sacraments not be action?
3f8ca5 No.729
>>724
Stop shit posting, you got btfo in multiple threads on the other board.
1e10b2 No.730
73c096 No.731
>>730
I hope you get banned from the internet
1e10b2 No.732
>>731
Sorry bud, no safety from inconvenient arguments for you here
3f8ca5 No.733
>>732
You think Prayer is considered works.
You think Sacrements are works.
You think everything is considered works.
You think works are pointless.
You think baptism is just symbolic.
My guy, you are so rigid in your beliefs you can't even understand any one elses point of view.
1e10b2 No.734
3f8ca5 No.735
>>734
You are the baptist poster right?
Note; I do not believe only the Catholic Faith can save.
How do you justify prayer as a work?
3c11eb No.736
>>735
before we get into it, you tell me what you think a work is and why it's relevant
3f8ca5 No.737
>>736
Different kinds of work, In my definition.
For me, work would be doing my best to Glorify Christ through out the day, Charity, Evangilisim, Being dutiful (getting my Daily tasks done to exemplify God) etc, etc. Worldy Activities.
Prayer Life and Sacrements are things we do to join Christ specifically with him as our High Priest. These are things we accomplish in the spiritual realm.
Both in the broad sense are works, but they are two completely different "substances" that we use to edify our selves.
3c11eb No.738
Okay, sacraments are works. If so, why do you make exception for them in light of Ephesians 2:8&9?
<For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9 NAS)
3f8ca5 No.739
>>738
We don't. We believe it's through Grace by Faith.
3c11eb No.740
>>739
Do you need to have the sacraments before you're saved?
I'm assuming you meant "by grace through faith"
3f8ca5 No.741
>>740
I am dyslexic, I am sorry.
>Do you need to have the sacraments before you're saved?
No.
3c11eb No.742
>>741
So we're in agreement on salvation.
What did you think my position was?
3f8ca5 No.743
>>742
Symbolic Baptism, and you do not believe faith and works are what justifies our salvation. It's Faith through works that justifies.
3c11eb No.744
>>743
I'm lost on what you're articulating
Can you make a diagram like the OP image?
Are you saved without baptism or not?
3f8ca5 No.745
>>744
I'm phone posting, I cannot. Yes, you can. I clearly stated so above.
Doing works in faith is what sanctifies us.
3c11eb No.746
>>745
Then why do you object to "symbolic baptism", meaning it's not a saving work?
3f8ca5 No.748
>>746
You can't live a Christian spiritual life without Baptism. Without it the Sacrements have no value, for you are not One in communion of the Church.
It is the first thing to justify us into Faith, it is when we become of Christs flock.
3c11eb No.749
>>748
>You can't live a Christian spiritual life without Baptism.
yes
>you are not One in communion of the Church.
yes church membership should be contingent on baptism
>It is the first thing to justify us into Faith,
ok
>it is when we become of Christs flock.
no, that's the point of salvation when Jesus Christ is in you
>Without it the Sacrements have no value
the very term "sacrament" implies that they bring grace, which is what I reject as that would be works salvation. Baptists use the term ordinance to clarify this.
3f8ca5 No.750
>>749
>no, that's the point of salvation when Jesus Christ is in you
He sets us apart from the others through baptism, I believe we are on the same page here.
>Without it the Sacrements have no value
the very term "sacrament" implies that they bring grace, which is what I reject as that would be works salvation.
Christ is the one who Ministers grace through these vessels of sanctitiy. If you don't have Faith in his ministering then that's on you.
5313b7 No.751
>>750
I meant to say "at" the point of salvation, as in you're in the flock before you're baptised
>Christ ministers grace through these vessels (sacraments)
that's the point of contention
when you say "ministers grace" do you mean something besides salvation?
3f8ca5 No.752
>>751
Only members of the Universal church are of the Flock, else they can have Faith in christ yet believe in Heresy.
>>751
Yes, this is how we grow in our Faith. (Prayer for the obvious example) This is how we become holier Christian individuals. Without using the gifts that Christ has given us we will struggle, we will flounder and we will not grow.
5313b7 No.753
>>752
I'm on board with your articulation but I don't like your use of "grace"
Turns out we were in agreement.
3f8ca5 No.754
>>753
Yeah, I thought we would be. The contention against Catholicism is because it's wildly misunderstood and it propogates through everywhere.
For me, grace isn't just for Salvation, it's any gift that God bestows. Christ was given to us by the Father as grace. Christ gave us salvation by grace, yet he also makes us in his image through out our Christian lives. All things we know of God, is grace.
Anyways, I wish you the best, God bless anon
5313b7 No.755
>>754
well hold on, what you've said is contrary to catholic doctrine
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm
> VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
>1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.
3f8ca5 No.756
>>755
If you're on the Way to baptism and you die before you arrive then the Catholic docterine is that you'll still be saved.
If your heart is where baptism is then you're saved. Technically I didn't lie.
5313b7 No.757
>>756
>If you're on the Way to baptism and you die before you arrive then the Catholic docterine is that you'll still be saved.
show me a catholic authority saying that, because it's contradictory to the catechism page I'm looking at
3f8ca5 No.758
>>757
Okay.
>1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm
5313b7 No.759
>>758
what does it mean to "know the church" here, to the authors?
I'm very aware of catholicism and I reject it. I have not been baptized by a catholic. Am I saved?
3f8ca5 No.760
>>759
>1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82
5313b7 No.761
>>760
was my baptism proper by catholic standards?
3f8ca5 No.762
>>761
Yeah, unless it was Mormon.
5313b7 No.763
>>762
That's interesting to know, but we haven't found the answer to the other question
What is "knowing the church"? My first thought given the phrasing is like a pre-1492 American Indian who had no possible contact with the west or Christianity.
3f8ca5 No.764
>>763
I can't tell if you are being serious here.
It means knowing Christ, through the means of Docterine. Catholic docterine in the specific, but in the general meaning it is Universal body.
2a22a2 No.765
>>764
I'm being serious. You say "the church" in our quote:
>without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace
is referring to all Christians, but I suspect what it means is the roman catholic church given "outside the church there is no salvation"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus
Therefore since I don't meet any of the three criteria
>martyr
>catachumens
>one not knowing the church but seeking God
I am not saved according to catholic doctrine
In any case, it's just a direct contradiction in your catechism to say
>you must be baptized to be saved
>you can be saved if you aren't baptized
3f8ca5 No.767
>>765
I'm finding you to be willfully ignorant , Have a goodnight.
2a22a2 No.768
>>767
rude
bye
stop misspelling "doctrine" and don't capitalize random words
def2e5 No.772
>>724
>Faith and works are each biblical concepts that interact
"Faith" is not a doctrine, and "works" is not a doctrine
78683c No.775