[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / animu / bbg / leftpol / leftyb / porn / tingles / v8 / xivlg ]

/christianity/ - Christian Theology

Free speech discussion
Name
Email
Subject
Comment *
File
Password (Randomized for file and post deletion; you may also set your own.)
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Flag
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


File: 7757ac3460fa965⋯.png (8.59 KB, 510x179, 510:179, 2tim3.png)

0ece56  No.1091

In 2 Timothy 3, Paul writes that the sacred writings "are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus"

Does this refer to the Old Testament?

If so, this is a defeater for the necessity of baptism for salvation, since Timothy would be older than the scriptures that instruct baptism.

32f3db  No.1094

>>1091

>Does this refer to the Old Testament?

Specifically at that point yes, as he mentions these being known by Timothy since his youth, but his object is to describe scripture in general, all which partakes in the nature of scripture, which is why he then refers to "All Scripture", i.e. all that which is scripture. Hence, this would even describe scriptures which did not yet exist.

>If so, this is a defeater for the necessity of baptism for salvation, since Timothy would be older than the scriptures that instruct baptism.

Treading on exceptionally thin ice here anon, tread carefully. What you're suggesting would delete the NT from the canon, and worst of all it sounds like that's the core of your point.


0ece56  No.1096

>>1094

>What you're suggesting would delete the NT from the canon

what?


32f3db  No.1150

>>1096

You can't chop up the passage. If verses 14 and 15 exclude the New Testament, so do verses 16 and 17


e10918  No.1151

>>1150

Please just re-read the op


32f3db  No.1153

>>1151

The problem is precisely what the OP says. The premise is essentially: '2 Timothy 3 says the New Testament is not canon, so what it says about baptism is irrelevant'.


1e7cf0  No.1155

>>1150

>If verses 14 and 15 exclude the New Testament, so do verses 16 and 17

Verse 16 starts off with "all scripture," so we're talking about all scripture now.


c3a115  No.1156

>>1153

I'm not suggesting any scripture is to be excluded. I'm presenting a case that you can be saved without baptism, because this passage seems to say you can be saved from OT scripture.


32f3db  No.1158

>>1155

Right, except Paul wrote these verses one after the other, so they all stand together or fall together. There is no gap between verse 15 and verse 16

>>1156

>I'm presenting a case that you can be saved without baptism, because this passage seems to say you can be saved from OT scripture.

Then by the same logic, wouldn't you be able to be saved without Jesus Christ? Our interpretation of scripture needs to be consistent. Before we adopt an argument against an opposing position, we must check it against our own position. The New Testament tells us how to interpret the Old. We could not grasp its full meaning without subsequent revelation.


c3a115  No.1159

>>1158

Yes, Abraham was saved pre-Christ. Christ was still propitiation for his sin, but he didn't go to hell.

Romans 4:2-3 KJV — For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

I have no opposition to the rest of what you're saying


1e7cf0  No.1160

>>1158

The whole letter can be about more than one thing. Just because 2 Timothy 1:1 starts off with the word "Paul" doesn't mean every statement in the letter is about Paul.

Later sentences in the epistle move on to related subjects. So, it wasn't until verse 16 that we started talking about "all scripture." Once we started talking about all scripture, then it becomes valid to apply the appropriate statements to it. So, first it was talking about certain scripture that he has known, but then started talking about "all scripture" in the next sentence, so apply each sentence to its own subject; This concept really isn't hard unless you have some motivation to not understand it.

>>1159

Hebrews 11 explains that people were always saved through faith in our one and only Savior. If that seems far-fetched just remember that He was already spoken of back in Genesis 3:15, so there have always been believers in this faith, and His necessary coming was therefore remembered. You find it in Job 19:25 also. John 5:46 states that Moses wrote of him as well (ex. Genesis 49:10, Deuteronomy 18:18-19).


c3a115  No.1164

>>1160

I agree. Any faith that was saving in the OT was for hope of the coming Messiah.

What was not present was baptism pre-Christ, and given the seeming affirmation that Timothy was saved without baptism but after the crucifixion, I'm concluding that this passage also proves baptism isn't involved in salvation.


1e7cf0  No.1166

>>1164

You'd be concluding right, but more proof should be drawn from the positive statements in scripture, not just lack of evidence. A look at all of the relevant scriptures will lead to the same conclusion.


32f3db  No.1178

>>1159

I'm sorry?

>>1160

>The whole letter can be about more than one thing. Just because 2 Timothy 1:1 starts off with the word "Paul" doesn't mean every statement in the letter is about Paul.

Correct. However, on the other hand, considering Paul was talking about scripture, and in the next sentence was talking about scripture, pretending these aren't the same context can't be construed as natural interpretation.

>So, it wasn't until verse 16 that we started talking about "all scripture."

That is not true. He was elaborating on what he just said. You would rightly object if I interpreted something you wrote like this. We would not interpret any other writing this way, if we would not twist the words of men, all the less so should we twist the words of God.

>Once we started talking about all scripture, then it becomes valid to apply the appropriate statements to it

This compartmentalization Baptists practice needs to stop. You can't act like a period means scripture is talking about totally different things now and claim to be seeking the intended meaning. These words were written by men, read it like a man wrote it. When you write or speak, do you suddenly launch into completely unrelated matters every sentence? Treat the word of God with respect

>This concept really isn't hard

It also isn't realistic

>>1164

>given the seeming affirmation that Timothy was saved without baptism

There is no mention of baptism in this chapter.


c31115  No.1180

>>1178

>There is no mention of baptism in this chapter

Re read the OP

Timothy was saved post-christ, from the OT scriptures. I'm arguing that this is still possible, and one detail absent from the OT is baptism. Therefore, baptism is not necessary for salvation.


1e7cf0  No.1183

>>1178

The subject of the first sentence is scripture you have known, the grammatical subject of the next sentence is all scripture. These are related things, which makes sense but they are clearly not the same.

Now if you wanted them to be the same for whatever reason, I can see why you would try to pretend they were.


1e7cf0  No.1184

>>1183

Just to add on to this, was there ever a time when you were talking about something and then added something like "Indeed, we can say this about all X." I guess this is considered launching into completely unrelated matters.


32f3db  No.1188

>>1180

>Re read the OP

The OP is not in 2 Timothy 3

>Timothy was saved post-christ, from the OT scriptures. I'm arguing that this is still possible, and one detail absent from the OT is baptism. Therefore, baptism is not necessary for salvation.

I'll just spell it out for you, there's a word for what you're doing: eisegesis. Paul is not talking about baptism or its relation to salvation. It has absolutely no relevance to this passage whatsoever. You're not just putting words in Paul's mouth, but an entire topic. Do not use this argument, it will not do you good.

>>1183

The only reply this would merit would basically just be a repetition of what I already said

>>1184

That would not be completely unrelated, but a direct continuation of the same discussion, and regardless Paul is not speaking on a whim. Look at the chapter starting from verse 1. Paul's whole discussion is about the last days, when men will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived, and after giving a lengthy description of how the wicked shall be (especially in the deception of imposters), Paul at last turns to Timothy and directs him to that which will be able to serve as a searchlight in those days, the sacred writings, which are able to make him wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus (especially relevant to this thread, considering the messiah is not identified until the New Testament), because all scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, of such design that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work. The unity of the message is abundantly clear, the only way you can miss it is if you want to. Just keep reading to chapter 4, where Paul continues to discuss the last days and the necessity of scripture and the contrast between Timothy's role and the world.


c31115  No.1189

>>1188

If you're accusing me on eisegesis the onus is on you to identify where I'm wrong and why


1e7cf0  No.1196

>>1188

I don't see where you disagree with my actual post.

>That would not be completely unrelated, but a direct continuation of the same discussion

Yes exactly my point. The word of God continues by expanding into all scripture. You had implied at one point that it was "launching into completely unrelated matters". Not sure where that came from. Looks like you agree on this now.


32f3db  No.1223

>>1189

Read the sentence after that word

>>1196

>I don't see where you disagree with my actual post.

It's the part where you argued against the authority of the New Testament

>The word of God continues by expanding into all scripture

It's not an expansion. The point was about mere scripture the whole time. Establish that Paul was speaking of the Old Testament alone

>You had implied at one point that it was "launching into completely unrelated matters"

Which it is, if in verse 15 Paul is saying "that OT is all you need" and then in verse 16 is talking about the nature of all scripture.


514905  No.1229

>>1223

>Read the sentence after that word

I think I know where we're getting mixed up.

It sounds like you reject the notion of implicit conclusions from a text as eisegesis. That's not what eisegesis means. Eisegesis is "reading into" the text, to draw out lessons that are unsupported. Instead of giving any reasoning that my application is wrong, you just asserted that it's unrelated. Even worse, you're being condescending about it.

An implicit conclusion is one that comes by implication from the text. Here's an article so you can learn some basic hermeneutics: ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/explicit-and-implicit-teaching/

Paul tells Timothy "use a little wine for the sake of your stomach (1 Tim. 5:23 NAS)"

an IMPLICIT lesson from this is that wine is permissible, at least in "little" amounts.

The next chapter says "But godliness actually is a means of great gain, when accompanied by contentment. (1 Tim. 6:6 NAS)"

an EXPLICIT lesson from this is that "godliness is a means of great gain, when accompanied by contentment"

it is EXPLICITLY stated.

Now: reconsider the OP question. Given the timeline, was Timothy saved post-christ without baptism? If so, by implication it is possible, and baptism is not a requirement for salvation. If you have reason to believe Timothy WAS baptised before salvation, or if you think Timothy was saved pre-christ so didn't need baptism, that would be an argument worth having. If you think this implication is invalid, you can say why.


32f3db  No.1233

File: 595387ee3425cdf⋯.png (314.78 KB, 600x540, 10:9, smile and optimism.png)

>>1229

>It sounds like you reject the notion of implicit conclusions from a text as eisegesis

No, anon, what I reject is taking conclusions from a text that have nothing at all to do with what the author is talking about. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you, but what you're doing is looking at a topic (baptism and salvation) and looking at the text, and the only conclusion you're actually drawing from the text is that the teaching you're looking for will indeed fit in this text, and then you insert your conclusions into the text. This is the very definition of eisegesis. We can't claim that this verse opposes baptismal justification because we are putting words in the apostle's mouth. Where does the apostle say in this passage that baptism does not save? If the answer is 'nowhere' (which it is), then to conclude that from this passage is eisegesis, it is inserted into the text, because the author does not say it.

It is insulting that you proceed to define eisegesis and implication as if I am unaware of what these mean. I won't define eisegesis because what you've been doing all thread is the best example I can give, but I will explain what an implicit teaching is, and why the insertion of baptism into 2 Timothy 3 is not an example of it. Something said is implicit merely if it is not said in those very words. That is an extremely broad category. Something can be implicit if it is the primary intention of a statement and also if it is necessarily alongside it (something not immediately intended by the author but that would contradict what they said were it to be otherwise). Now, something is not an implicit teaching if it is something inferred from their statement about a completely separate topic that is not related to their purpose (for example, to make a conclusion about baptism from 2 Timothy 3:15). So yes, that verse does imply something about wine, because it actually talks about wine. In contrast, we cannot truthfully say that this verse implies something about baptism, because no part of the passage is about baptism in any way, shape, or form (interpret this in the most literal way possible, it is not hyperbole).

>Eisegesis is "reading into" the text

Such as perhaps reading the topics of baptism and salvation into a text about scripture and the end times?

>Instead of giving any reasoning that my application is wrong

If you were paying attention, you would know I've given nothing but

>you're being condescending

And then, without a hint of self-awareness, in the very next sentence, you proceed to explain the words implicit and explicit as if I was completely ignorant of what these words mean, like I was a child.

>Given the timeline, was Timothy saved post-christ without baptism?

Instead of going over a thoroughly ridiculous and now well-refuted interpretation yet again, instead let's go over what I've said so far. Which part of the text tells us whether Timothy was saved before or after Christ? And which part of the text tells us whether it was with or without baptism?

>If you have reason to believe Timothy WAS baptised before salvation, or if you think Timothy was saved pre-christ so didn't need baptism, that would be an argument worth having

Why in the world would I accept the burden of proof instead of just dismissing your entire argument out of hand? Why don't you give me reason to believe this has anything at all to do with 2 Timothy 3, and then to believe that he's making the point you want him to be.

>If you think this implication is invalid, you can say why.

I think I have




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Cancer][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / animu / bbg / leftpol / leftyb / porn / tingles / v8 / xivlg ]