/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Well… I just think that this is autism

t. Ortho

>>709252

Orthodox and Latins understand God very differently anon.

Latins conceive of God as persons subsisting in one essence, thus reducing the persons in God to relations of paternity, sonship, and spiration. Causation in God is attributed to the one common essence for Latins. This is why the Latins are so wrong about the procession of the Holy Spirit and confusion of God's energies with his essence.

Orthodoxy Christians go off of the writings of the Church Fathers, not the scholastics. The Father alone is the source of the supraessentual Godhead. God's energies are the actuality of the whole Trinity in the source of the Father manifesting itself in the world, they are not the common essence of God as the Latins believe. This is why Latins believe in created grace, because if they didn't they would be promoting the idea that salvation is pantheism.

>>709259

Why can't Eastern Orthodox just accept that we have a different theological tradition that is equally as valid as the Eastern Orthodox theological tradition? Both of our ideas are found in the Fathers, yours in the east, ours in the west. Eastern Catholics hold the same entelechy as you because we realize that it's an equally valid expression of the faith. We are not heretics, we never were, you just can't appreciate our theologians who have been saying what we are saying from the very beginning. Why are you so sour over it?

>>709263

>Why can't Eastern Orthodox just accept that we have a different theological tradition that is equally as valid as the Eastern Orthodox theological tradition?

Because our theological tradition the tradition of the universal Church, both Eastern and Western. The Roman Catholic tradition, on the other hand is late, post-schism, and based on scholasticism, that is on rationalizations by the fallen human mind.

>>709263

Because this isn't theologoumena.

St. Maximus even believed that when you spoke of things like the filioque he thought you meant the Holy Spirit only went "through" (διά) the Son in an economic sense. Which technically isn't heresy and can be considered Orthodox. However in your own Council of Lyons and Florence you admit that you believe the procession of the Holy Spirit is "of one principle" which is wrong and confuses the hypostases.

Also, the Fathers time and time again talk about God's energies. Have you ever read An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by Damascene? It's the central theme of his theology. This text was even one of the few Greek works available in Latin during the days of the scholastics. Yet your theologians, going off the pagan philosophy of Aristotle, introduced things into God which are impossible! You Latins truly believe you can understand the essence of God, yet St. Gregory Nazianzus and St. Basil says that God's essence is totally unknowable. You are completely heretical. Your tradition started not within the holy tradition of the Orthodox Church but in the confused writings of Augustine and his Latin sympathizers.

>>709267

>rationalizations by the fallen human mind.

Whoa there, friend, that negativity towards human rationality is dangerously to close to presuppositionalism.

>>709316

>>709259

>>709263

The Orthodox tend to exaggerate the differences in western and eastern theology, but it's all essentially the same thing or speculation about things that nobody really understands

>>709323

the filque is correct.

>>709323

No, you under exaggerate it. These are real differences. Your conception of God is fundamentally different of our conception of God.

>>709326

No it's not

>>709327

Yes it is. We believe God the Father is the source of the Trinity. You, on the other hand, reduce the Trinity to simple relations that generate the essence.

>>709328

go to bed jay dyer

>>709329

Looks like someone doesn't have an argument.

>>709332

I'm not going to get into an argument over esoteric theological speculations on the metaphysical nature of God. What does matter is our moral choices, and carrying our cross to die to this world with Christ. In practice Orthodox and Catholic spirituality is the same thing and is meant to bring us into eternal communion with God, we don't believe in different God's we believe in the same Christ

>>709334

>I'm not going to get into an argument over esoteric theological speculations on the metaphysical nature of God.

Wow, that's the exact same argument Muslims and Arians use against the Trinity, that it's an "esoteric theological speculation."

Everything I just wrote is central to Orthodox theology. Orthodox theology rests of the energies of God because it's essential in Theosis, which is what salvation is. Oh but to you these are just "esoteric". They're not. This is Orthodox theology. You believe in heretical theology.

>What does matter is our moral choices, and carrying our cross to die to this world with Christ. In practice Orthodox and Catholic spirituality is the same thing and is meant to bring us into eternal communion with God, we don't believe in different God's we believe in the same Christ

It absolutely is not. You believe in multiple heresies. You believe in the false doctrines of papal supremacy, original sin, actus purus, the filioque, scholasticism, and a host of other heresies. You are heterodox. True salvation is only found in the Orthodox Church.

>>709335

The Orthodox actually do believe in papal supremacy but they've separated themselves from the primary bishop in Rome. The schism was a result of pride, albeit on both sides, but there's no longer any reason that we shouldn't reunite Christendom. I don't believe that all Orthodox Christians are schismatic, and they have valid sacraments and spirituality, but you certainly are schismatic and probably an ex protestant who still holds anti Catholicism in your heart.

>>709338

>The Orthodox actually do believe in papal supremacy

We have never believed such a false doctrine. We can talk about Papal Primacy, but supremacy is a horrendous heresy. You, the Roman Catholic Church, split off from the Orthodox Church after the papacy was usurped by heretics. Your Pope is a heretic.

The schism was a result of your being heretics for accepting papal supremacy and the filioque. Also, you have no grace in your sacraments, therefore you have no priesthood, and so none of your sacraments are valid.

You are heretical and there is no salvation outside the Orthodox Church.

>>709340

The papacy is necessary, the proof is in the pudding, the orthodox don't hold councils anymore, they don't evangelize (this is a huge problem), they're a completely stagnant force politically. The primacy of Rome was always understood even before the schism, it's not some made up doctrine by evil westerners. You can believe what you want, but Christ commanded us to all be one, not the national church of serbia vs the greek church vs the copts vs the orientals

>>709342

>The papacy is necessary, the proof is in the pudding, the orthodox don't hold councils anymore

We don't need to hold ecumenical councils anymore, everything necessary for the faith can be found in the seven ecumenical councils and the writings of the Church Fathers. But in fact we do hold councils just not ecumenical. You don't have ecumenical councils either since you are heretics and none of your councils bind in anyway.

>they don't evangelize (this is a huge problem)

We evangelize all the time. We have numerous websites devotes to spreading the Orthodox faith:

https://orthochristian.com/

We even have missionaries:

https://www.ocmc.org/

>The primacy of Rome was always understood even before the schism

Sure, I'd concede you on that, but certainly never supremacy. St. Cyprian of Alexandria (258 A.D.) actually refutes papal supremacy.

>You can believe what you want, but Christ commanded us to all be one, not the national church of serbia vs the greek church vs the copts vs the orientals

Well then, according to your logic, the Roman Catholic Church isn't one either since you have the Latin Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, etc.

Your definition of universal and one is faulty. The Orthodox Church is one, we are all in full communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople and with each other. We all share the same doctrines. The difference is is that we're not ruled by a heretical tyrant who defends pedophiles like your church.

>>709345

Get out.

>>709343

Look I'm glad to see some examples of the Orthodox stepping outside of their own bubble, but it's really not the norm, and it's not completely your guys fault either. In separating with Rome, you've been constantly oppressed by the enemies of the church. Pope Francis isn't the best pope, but that's a people problem, Christ built his perfect church and chooses imperfect messy people to lead it. In the end Christ will prevail, his church will prevail. Popes come and go, the good the bad and the ugly, Francis won't last forever, and liberal Catholics will eventually leave and die off. Reunion has to happen, this prideful arrogance won't work in an increasingly satanic world

>>709323

Converts from Catholicism and Protestantism are usually doing that lol. There are still many differences though.

>>709251

It's just a matter of philosophical point of view.

If you accept the definition of aristotelian logic and philosophy then God can't be potential but pure act. From another point of view were 'potentia' is differently defined then God can have potentiality.

Don't assume a single point of view and a single definition of words: it's only a matter of the limited understanding and frame of the human mind. If we want to bound God according to human thought it is a form of idolatry, we can try to understand him in different ways the best we can but we should never make an idol of this limited understanding.

>>709316

>that negativity towards human rationality is dangerously to close to presuppositionalism

There is no negativity towards the human rationality. The negativity is towards the fallen human rationality which is like a reed shaken by the wind (Luke 7:24) where to each argument there is a counter-argument. The doctrine about the papal infallibility was a necessity because in 19th century the Catholic theology was collapsing, falling apart in its own impotence and contradictions. This centralization, however, only delayed the inevitable. Today the traditional Catholic theology exists no more. Nowhere are you going to find it and this happened long before the current liberal pope. The modern Catholic theology is chaos and this is not exaggeration. The only way the next pope can fix this is by proclaiming that all this doesn't matter, we believe in the same God, we believe in love and other slogans with no substance, paving the way to the Antichrist.

The Orthodox preaching is not in the persuasive words of human wisdom, but in shewing of the Spirit and power so that our faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. Yes, we speak wisdom among the perfect, this wisdom, however, is not of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory. We have received the Spirit that is of God, so that we may know the things that are given us from God. And we speak about these things, not in the learned words of human wisdom, but in the doctrine of the Spirit. Unfortunately, the sensual man didn't perceive this because it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand.

>>709352

>In separating with Rome, you've been constantly oppressed by the enemies of the church.

It is good to confide in the Lord, rather than to have confidence in man.

It is good to trust in the Lord, rather than to trust in princes.

The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear?

The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?

If armies in camp should stand together against me, my heart shall not fear.

If a battle should rise up against me, in this will I be confident.

One thing I have asked of the Lord, this will I seek after;

that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life.

That I may see the delight of the Lord, and may visit his temple.

>>709316

>Whoa there, friend, that negativity towards human rationality is dangerously to close to presuppositionalism.

No, we just find usage of fallen human rationality in matters of theology to be retarded. It always ends up with scholastic autism

>>709411

You should know cataphatic theology has a place. Human reason is a divine gift and is capable of understanding Truth, to a limited degree.

While not making idols of theology and theories we must also accept that thoughts based on logic and non contradiction are not entirely artificial constructs. Else we share the same constructionist nominalist nihilism of postmodernists.

>>709400

>Today the traditional Catholic theology exists no more. Nowhere are you going to find it and this happened long before the current liberal pope. The modern Catholic theology is chaos and this is not exaggeration.

You are implying the crap of jesuit theology and similar modernist heresies are not already condemned. Make no mistake, their heresies are not unrefutable claims opposed to Catholic doctrine, they are already answered and refuted.

The problem is not the impossibility of true doctrine among contradictory theory, the issue is just discipline.

>The only way the next pope can fix this is by proclaiming that all this doesn't matter, we believe in the same God, we believe in love and other slogans with no substance, paving the way to the Antichrist.

See, here is the problem: this is not the only way to fix this.

A normal Pope like those of the past only need to say: "you know, we actually believe in this, in case you forgot. All your theories are heretical and we already know this, reject them or go away from the Church".

>The Orthodox preaching is not in the persuasive words of human wisdom, but in shewing of the Spirit and power so that our faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. Yes, we speak wisdom among the perfect, this wisdom, however, is not of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory.

Yeah, I wish I can believe any of this. Sound very idealistic but history show that your theologians sperg just as much as ours over artificial details created by human theories.

>>709420

>Human reason is a divine gift and is capable of understanding Truth, to a limited degree.

Actually, to a great degree. But only when our mind works together with God, not alone, not without the Holy Spirit. Scholastics are modern pelagianists.

>While not making idols of theology and theories we must also accept that thoughts based on logic and non contradiction are not entirely artificial constructs.

If a natural scientist says about his theory that it is the absolute truth, he will be ridiculed. There is some truth in the scientific theories but none of them is the absolute truth. And the same goes when logic is used in the theology. The use of thoughts based on logic in the theology are permitted only when the theologian agrees in everything that has been revealed by God, including to the teachings of the Saints, old or modern, and, in addition, when the theologian acknowledges that everything he has proved but which can not be found in the revelation is uncertain.

>Else we share the same constructionist nominalist nihilism of postmodernists.

We have the continuing Divine revelation.

>>709424

>A normal Pope like those of the past only need to say: "you know, we actually believe in this, in case you forgot. All your theories are heretical and we already know this, reject them or go away from the Church".

I wish this could happen. I really wish this could happen, but it won't happen. Nobody cares. Nobody is going to trade the billion lukewarm who like the things the way they are for the few remaining conservative Catholics.

>I wish I can believe any of this. Sound very idealistic

This is reality for those who walk on the path leading to God. Try Orthodox faith plus asceticism and you will see God.

>but history show that your theologians sperg just as much as ours over artificial details created by human theories.

I agree with you.

>>709251

Because the "Orthodox" widely accept a heretical theology known as Palamism, which introduces a "energy and essence" distinction within the God head, where in God's energy is somehow distinct from his essence but still somehow God.

Now you may be think to yourself that this is utterly absurd and logically impossible, totally contrary to the teachings of the church fathers and the councils of the Church. And you would be 100% correct.

>>710697

Heretics cannot have faith in Christ since they believe in a different Christ than the orthodox do.

>>709328

>relations that generate the essence

Do you even understand these words you're using?

>>709343

>Sure, I'd concede you on that, but certainly never supremacy.

>You should understand that the head of the Apostles was St. Peter, to whom Christ said, ‘You are the rock; and on this rock I shall build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it.’ After his resurrection, he also said to him three times, while on the shore of the sea of Tiberius, ‘Simon, do you love me? Feed my lambs, rams and ewes.’ In another passage, he said to him, ‘Simon, Satan will ask to sift you like wheat, and I prayed that you not lose your faith; but you, at that time, have compassion on your brethren and strengthen them.’ Do you not see that St. Peter is the foundation of the church, selected to shepherd it, that those who believe in his faith will never lose their faith, and that he was ordered to have compassion on his brethren and to strengthen them? As for Christ’s words, ‘I have prayed for you, that you not lose your faith; but you, have compassion on your brethren, at that time, and strengthen them’, we do not think that he meant St. Peter himself. Rather, he meant nothing more than the holders of the seat of St. Peter, that is, Rome. Just as when he said to the apostles, ‘I am with you always, until the end of the age’, he did not mean just the apostles themselves, but also those who would be in charge of their seats and their flocks; in the same way, when he spoke his last words to St. Peter, ‘Have compassion, at that time, and strengthen your brethren; and your faith will not be lost’, he meant by this nothing other than the holders of his seat.

>Yet another indication of this is the fact that among the apostles it was St. Peter alone who lost his faith and denied Christ, which Christ may have allowed to happen to Peter so as to teach us that it was not Peter that he meant by these words. Moreover, we know of no apostle who fell and needed St. Peter to strengthen him. If someone says that Christ meant by these words only St. Peter himself, this person causes the church to lack someone to strengthen it after the death of St. Peter. How could this happen, especially when we see all the sifting of the church that came from Satan after the apostles’ death? All of this indicates that Christ did not mean them by these words. Indeed, everyone knows that the heretics attacked the church only after the death of the apostles – Paul of Samosata, Arius, Macedonius, Eunomius, Sabelllius, Apollinaris, Origen, and others. If he meant by these words in the gospel only St. Peter, the church would have been deprived of comfort and would have had no one to deliver her from those heretics, whose heresies are truly ‘the gates of hell’, which Christ said would not overcome the church. Accordingly, there is no doubt that he meant by these words nothing other than the holders of the seat of St. Peter, who have continually strengthened their brethren and will not cease to do so as long as this present age lasts.

- St. Theodore Abu Qurrah

>>710699

Orthodox

>Catholics are heretics, no salvation outside of the Orthoduck church in Kazakhstan

Catholics

>Orthodox are our separated brethren in Christ, we must reunite and take back Constantinople

>>709259

>Causation in God is attributed to the one common essence for Latins.

This is wrong. Causation in God is attributed to the person of the Father.

>This is why the Latins are so wrong about the procession of the Holy Spirit and confusion of God's energies with his essence.

No relation whatsoever.

>This is why Latins believe in created grace, because if they didn't they would be promoting the idea that salvation is pantheism.

Catholics believe that God's essence and energies are distinct in the economy but not in the Godhead, so that we do not participate in or understand God's essence necessarily by participating in His grace. In other words, they believe in a virtual/formal distinction but not in a real distinction, following Aquinas.

>>709263

>Why can't Eastern Orthodox just accept that we have a different theological tradition that is equally as valid as the Eastern Orthodox theological tradition?

Monopatrism is a heresy according to Catholicism, you know. You can't say as a Catholic that you and the Orthodox have equally correct doctrines.

>>709268

St Maximus interpreted the filioque to mean the Spirit proienai (progresses) *eternally* through the Son, *thus showing the Son and the Spirit's consubstantiality*.

He did however renounce any notion of causation for the Son.

>>709343

St Cyprian of Carthage denounced that the Pope had supreme authority and judgment, but believed that communion with Rome was necessary to be part of the Church, because Rome has the primacy from apostolic origins and thus it shows the unity of the Church.

St Firmilian is a better example of anti-papism.

>>710702

Stop reading papal supremacy into things like "Peter is the rock upon which the Church is built", "Peter holds the keys of heaven", "the Pope is Peter's successor", "the Church of Rome is the See of Peter", and so on, things that the Orthodox do not deny.

Rather, see the other patristic and historical ideas that the rock is the faith of Peter, the rock is Christ, the rock is every believer who confesses the true doctrine, all the apostles hold the keys of heaven, the See of Peter is shared by all bishops…

The Roman tradition may have consistently seen the Pope as the unique guarantor of orthodox doctrine and praxis, the Church of Rome as being impossible to fall into heresy, the orthodoxy and ordination of all bishops to be derived purely from communion with the Pope, and so on, but the Byzantine tradition had a much more balanced view between primacy and collegiality: the Pope fulfills his role as successor of Peter and the coryphaeus of the choir of the bishops, and the bishops follow in response. Ecumenical councils are ecumenical if all 5 of the Pentarchy agree to it, including Rome's final confirmation of the council's ecumenicity. Communion with Rome is essential to belonging to the Church, as long as Rome is Orthodox - if not, the primacy falls upon Constantinople. Rome's practice is not normative, and can be incorrect, but should be respected. The Pope does not have universal jurisdiction but universal right to hear appeals or get involved in a dispute in another church for the sake of peace and unity. All bishops have the keys of heaven, through Peter, but the Pope's primacy is framed by the honor he receives from being directly ordained by Peter (he is not the only bishop in that position however) and by the Church of Rome's patron saints being Peter and Paul.

>>710703

If you think, as a Catholic, that Orthodox are not heretics, then you deny several of your ecumenical councils (most obviously Florence).

But hey, maybe that attitude is why your popes have joint prayer services with Muslims and Buddhists.

>>710705

Orthodox are not heretics, our Eastern Catholics brethren share the same faith and it's the Catholic faith expressed differently. The Orthodox churches are in schism, but they were never considered heretics by the church

Where in the King James Version of the Holy Bible does it say any of these things? God is God. Your stupid Cathodox philosophy and heretical church fathers mean nothing.

>Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

>Colossians 2:8, KJV

>>710707

Palamism is heresy dude, and so is this equality of bishops stuff that the Orthodox espouse.

They might be pretty close to the Catholic faith, but they're still wrong.

>>710711

You're all wrong and going to hell unless you repent and accept Christ as your lord and savior. Pleas get rid your stupid icons and stop conjuring the dead at your dumb mass and advocating for cannibalism. Thank you. Now repent.

>>710707

Eastern Catholics agree to Florence. We don't.

Popes have been calling the Orthodox heretics since the 12th century, you know this, right?

>>710711

The equality of bishops stuff is also what Catholics believe…

You don't believe that the Pope is a grade above a bishop. The Pope is a bishop, he is ordained like a bishop, his special charisma as head of the Church and successor of St Peter does not give him a clerical status other than that of a bishop. Even Pope Leo considered the apostles and Peter to be equal in a way.

Equality of rank does not mean identical prerogatives for all bishops though, but again the Orthodox wouldn't say that "Patriarch", "Archbishop", "Metropolitan", etc. are honorary titles devoid of any functionality.

>>710710

>>710712

None of this is philosophy, all of this is revelation. Philosophy is only useful insofar as it allows us to put words on concepts.

You are the hellbound heretic if you reject that Jesus is God who became incarnate as man, with all that this implies.

>>710713

>None of this is philosophy, all of this is revelation. Philosophy is only useful insofar as it allows us to put words on concepts.

Show me where the word "actus purus" appears in the Bible? Can you show me where the word "active potency" appears in the Bible? Point to it and I will believe in these things. But you cannot, because they are stupid philosophy.

>You are the hellbound heretic if you reject that Jesus is God who became incarnate as man, with all that this implies.

Since I am saved I cannot be damned. You are not saved because you belong to a pagan religion. I believe Christ is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, who incarnated as a human. This is what Christians have always believed. Christians do not believe that Mary is a goddess though. Christians do not conjure up the dead or make vain repetitions. And you know what? We don't follow stupid philosophy and traditions of men like you do.

>>710717

>Your caricature of the Catholic faith is as ridiculous as your theology.

<shows picture of pagan idol

>lol, you can't do theology without philosophy, or much of anything else for that matter.

Just goes to show you don't believe in the Bible because the Bible says to stay away from philosophy and vain deceit and science falsely so called (Colossians 2:8, 1 Timothy 6:20).

>Also I'll show you where "actus purus" is in the bible, if you might show me where sola fide or sola scriptura is in the bible k thx.

Sure.

>Sola Fide

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:28

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 11:6

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

>Acts 16:31

>Sola Scriptura

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mark 7:8

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:18-19

>>710714

>Show me where the word "actus purus" appears in the Bible? Can you show me where the word "active potency" appears in the Bible? Point to it and I will believe in these things. But you cannot, because they are stupid philosophy.

I'm not a Catholic. This is not my problem.

Bring up an issue that's actually relevant to Orthodox theology. Maybe the essence-energy distinction? Scripturally it would be better said as the distinction between God's residence in Heaven (which is stated throughout the Bible) and God's existence through all things (which is stated throughout the Bible), best shown by what happened at the Transfiguration.

>Since I am saved I cannot be damned.

So you finished your race? That's funny, Paul waited to be imprisoned and about to be martyred to make that claim. Until then he did not consider his race to be over.

>I believe Christ is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, who incarnated as a human. This is what Christians have always believed.

Congrats, then you're probably not a heretic, although there still needs to be clarification on what you mean by this.

>Christians do not believe that Mary is a goddess though. Christians do not conjure up the dead or make vain repetitions. And you know what? We don't follow stupid philosophy and traditions of men like you do.

When your talking points come from the Quran, that's when you know you took a wrong turn somewhere.

>>710714

Based and redpilled.