/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I don't think the church really believes in ghosts. All the supposed apparitions are forgeries or demons larping.

One exception is when the witch summoned Samuel but Augustine explains that was God who made him appear, not the witch's power.

Btw the electronic interference is a meme. Souls (which I think it is in my definition of ghosts) are immaterial spirits thus producing no electromagnetic fields at all.

>>704819

Aquinas says spirits are purely logical. Trying to fight one or cause trouble does not sound like a good idea.

>>705277

>I don't think the church really believes in ghosts. All the supposed apparitions are forgeries or demons larping.

Based on scriptural and Church teachings on the fate of the soul in the afterlife, this sounds accurate.

>>705277

>All the supposed apparitions are forgeries or demons larping.

Absolutely heretical. Many apparitions are canon.

>>705294

>>705296

I think he's talking about your garden variety ghosts that your average superstitious person believes in. Not Marian apparitions. (At least I hope so.)

>>705309

While I have my doubts about the talking bedsheet meme, the dead have interacted with the living many times in the past.

>Humans cannot interact with the world or the living after death: This is an easily disproved heresy with 1 Samuel 28. The Marian apparitions and saintly intervention are also evidence of the dead interacting with the world. Even the damned have asked the living for prayers in Orthodox stories.

>>705312

Aye, Marion and Saintly apparitions, the damned asking for prayers, yes that's all good. I'm saying the "Whoa, what's that noise?!?!?" Spoopy spirits/poltergeists/etc. that ghost chasers go into haunted houses to "prove" and the products of Ouija board/seance shenanigans are either fake, delusion, or demons larping.

>>705314

Yeah, that's what I meant by talking bedsheets.

>>705309

We have numerous anecdotes in Orthodoxy when dead would appear to the living. Mostly about prayers

And no we are not talking about autistic wraiths

>>705314

Those who can see them say that "good" and "evil" spirits can intervene in an ouija game, but only demons do it. Those who claim to be able to see them say that they look terrible and their whole existence is suffering. Sometimes they fight against each other to defend their territory. They fear each other too. Probably souls in purgatory or hell undergoing their punishment, or just demons, or something else.

>>705325

>purgatory

>>705325

>Those who can see them say that "good" and "evil" spirits can intervene in an ouija game, but only demons do it. Those who claim to be able to see them say that they look terrible and their whole existence is suffering. Sometimes they fight against each other to defend their territory. They fear each other too. Probably souls in purgatory or hell undergoing their punishment, or just demons, or something else.

"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out."

Luke 13:28

Sounds like spirits who couldn't get past heaven's strict border control. But saints do make apparitions to this world too, so maybe heaven is just a state of being and the Orthodox were right. For some reason heavenly spirits seem rather content. I wonder if it's because having a better understanding of God makes them more powerful and they don't worry about the little nasty spirits.

>>704819

Ghosts do not exist. All human souls are in Sheol/Hades. Neither do witches exist, nor psychics, nor mediums. Anyone who claims to be any of those things are either idiot spiritualists that have deceived themselves, or deliberate frauds playing on gullible people's emotions to get money.

Any and all "paranormal activity" can be explained through natural explanations. Demonic possession/oppression does happen and can manifest itself in the natural world but it is rare and usually happens only to saints or people who have a massive amount of disorder in their life. The appearance of angels or saints like Samuel's appearance to Saul are done by God to give special revelations to specific people in a specific place or time.

>>705330

>usually happens only to saints or people who have a massive amount of disorder in their life

Many intps probably fit both of those. I'm curious now. Is there any correlation between intp and schizophrenia?

>>705330

But what if the people who can see them refuse to be psychics and seances? What if they refuse getting paid for communicating with ghosts? There are many of them in my country living their lives just like normal people. One of my closest friends in elementary school and a catholic monk I once met shared their visions too. I think what they see aren't angels or saints, they were either hopeless or scary beings, some of them deliberately scare people.

>>705335

I found this from a quick google search.

>Cognition styles presented in Schizoid and Schizotypal personality disorder are very similar to those of the INTP; absent minded, fantasy disposed and an internal theoretical world.

I'm going to look further into this.

>>705330

I may not agree with everything you said in your post, Anon. But thanks for unintentionally uncovering this interesting rabbithole for me to look into.

>>705294

Mary is not a ghost.

>>705330

Except that bible mentions them numerous times and how they should be executed. If we take "lol dey not real" stance, there wouldn't be so much prohibitions against divination and witchcraft in general in the first place, instead replaced by "ignore them, they are retards"

>>705329

>But saints do make apparitions to this world too, so maybe heaven is just a state of being and the Orthodox were right.

According to Orthodoxy (at least most widespread view, you are referring to) both heaven and hell are state of beings and not considered as literal places (though this view is not counted as heretical or non acceptablr, of course). Also there was question about this thread asked in hell thread. I wonder if it was made by OP.

>>705343

That's like saying because the Bible mentions that we shouldn't worship other gods that other gods exist. The Bible never says that witches or mediums actually exist as people who can actually conjure up spirits or do magic. The Bible condemns it because it leads away from God and makes people believe they can have control over nature or spirits when in fact only God does. They actively blaspheme God when they do their stupid rituals. They bring degeneracy and spirit or demons worship and superstition into society and that's why they need to be rooted out and stoned to death.

>>705356

>The Bible never says that witches or mediums actually exist

I'm sure there was a court wizard in the Exodus.

>>705356

Pagan priests at Pharaoh's court?

>>705356

>>705359

And a clairvoyant prophesied Jesus' birth to Herod The Great.

>>705356

As >>705357 >>705359 >>705361 have said there are plenty examples of /x/-tier phenomena in the Bible. Absolute skepticism is an enlightenment value and only sounds rational because we live in an enlightenment era.

>>705359

>>705357

Their "magic" was either aided by demons trying to push back, or were illusions created by them and they couldn't even get past the second plague. They could not match God because they had no power from God.

>>705365

The Canon Episcopi from medieval canon law says that belief in the existence of witches or witchcraft is heretical:

>"Bishops and their officials must labor with all their strength to uproot thoroughly from their parishes the pernicious art of sorcery and malefice invented by the devil, and if they find a man or woman follower of this wickedness to eject them foully disgraced from the parishes. For the Apostle says, "A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition avoid." Those are held captive by the Devil who, leaving their creator, seek the aid of the Devil. And so Holy Church must be cleansed of this pest. "It is also not to be omitted that some unconstrained women, perverted by Satan, seduced by illusions and phantasms of demons, believe and openly profess that, in the dead of night, they ride upon certain beasts with the pagan goddess Diana, with a countless horde of women, and in the silence of the dead of the night to fly over vast tracts of country, and to obey her commands as their mistress, and to be summoned to her service on other nights. "But it were well if they alone perished in their infidelity and did not draw so many others into the pit of their faithlessness. For an innumberable multitude, deceived by this false opinion, believe this to be true and, so believing, wander from the right faith and relapse into pagan errors when they think that there is any divinity or power except the one God. "Wherefore the priests throughout their churches should preach with all insistence to the people that they may know this to be in every way false, and that such phantasms are sent by the devil who deludes them in dreams. Thus Satan himself, who transforms himself into an angel of light, when he has captured the mind of a miserable woman and has subjected her to himself by infidelity and incredulity, immediately changes himself into the likeness of different personages and deluding the mind which he holds captive and exhibiting things, both joyful and sorrowful, and persons, both known and unknown, and leads her faithless mind through devious ways. And while the spirit alone endures this, she thinks these things happen not in the spirit but in the body. "Who is there that is not led out of himself in dreams and nocturnal visions, and sees much sleeping that he had never seen waking? "Who is so stupid and foolish as to think that all these things that are done in the spirit are done in the body, when the Prophet Ezekiel saw visions of God in spirit and not in body, and the Apostle John saw and heard the mysteries of the Apocalypse in spirit and not in body, as he himself says "I was rapt in Spirit". And Paul does not dare to say that he was rapt in his body. "It is therefore to be publically proclaimed to all that whoever believes in such things, or similar things, loses the Faith, and he who has not the right faith of God is not of God, but of him in whom he believes, that is the devil. For of our Lord it is written, "All things were made by Him." Whoever therefore believes that anything can be made, or that any creature can be changed to better or worse, or transformed into another species or likeness, except by God Himself who made everything and through whom all things were made, is beyond a doubt an infidel."

>900 A.D.

>>705394

The Bible speaks of witches conjuring spirits and your greentext only condemns assuming visions are physical and inter-special transformation. The paranormal exists and it's Christian to be aware of it but for most it's not as fantastic as Hollywood makes it out to be.

>>705386

I mean, nobody here said the otherwise.

>>705394

Pardon my poor reading comprehension, but I don't think that wall of unparagraphed text denies the existence of witchcraft. It only warns you that witchcraft means collaboration with Satan and having faith in them instead of God.

>>705296

>>705294

My brothers I'm talking about the ghostly apparitions. A completely different phenomenon. Like haunted places and that shit.

Marian apparitions are a completely different thing, probably plbecause they're true.

The problem is all ghosts are demons. Humans go to either hell, purgatory(shut up) or heaven when they die. They dont linger.

>>706100

No, the Orthos were right. The damned still have agency in this world. I’ve been reading about possession and there are cases of human possession which are often very distinct from demonic possession.

>>706100

Remember, that hell(hades) is in the earth and is NOT the eternal pit of fire(gehenna).

>>704819

I went ghost hunting once. Bagged a couple, but it turns out there's very little meat on ghosts and the hide is worthless.

>>706197

Fr. Amorth and other catholic sources say the damned are indeed still involved in possessions and other spooky apparitions, but they are damned with a D, and show up with demons

>>706226

>and show up with demons

As friends or slaves?

>>706243

>friends

no, demons hate mankind

>>706243

>slaves

no (Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4))

>>706197

>>706301

Also for the note. I've talked to priests about the topic and they said that dead do not possess. Not that they cant, but the dont have interest in it. Yes, dead do have agency in this world, but at least in Orthodox tradition it was never about possessions or similar, but mostly asking for prayers or something else but not related to violence or terror. Again, they dont have interest in it.

>>706303

>they dont have interest in it.

The book I'm reading claims otherwise. Sometimes it's a full possession, like a man possessed by the spirit of a dead little girl dancing and stroking an invisible dress without any control, and sometimes it's just a strong attachment like the spirit becoming an attached companion to the point of threatening to make the boy commit suicide if the parents try to get an exorcism. I highly doubt every case is a larping demon as these cases tend to have very obvious differences between cases of demon possession such as when the obsessing spirit is a human there is almost always a lack of violence unlike with demons. Demons tend to show hatred for the possessed individual much like what you said here >>706301 Given that most (legitimate) interactions with human spirits don't seem to be founded in hatred that really btfos the proddie argument what if the saint's not really in heaven, since human spirits in general don't tend to be focused on harm (probably because of bigger worries tbh) and most often will probably ignore you if they aren't in heaven.

>>705280

Well the soul is where the will that drives our physical bodies come from, declaring that the soul could not have any effect on the physical world after death is pure conjecture, one of the pillars of Christianity is that the immaterial CAN effect the physical, as witnessed by the Gospels.

>>705330

Again more conjecture. Materialism, the a priori complete explanation for all phenomena, such that even when you definitely CAN'T explain something naturalistically, you can just hand wave it away as being explainable naturalistically. The fact that you've somehow reconciled this view with the existence of God and demons is incredible. How do you imagine that your argument is more convincing than the typical atheist pablum that applies your exact argument, only to the divinity of Christ?

>>705365

>Their "magic" was really just calling upon demons or summoning illusions

Interdasting, so their magic was really just demonic powers and projecting apparitions at will, what a stupid pleb he was for thinking that was magic.

>>706303

Father Ripperger claims that he has on multiple occasions exorcised the spirit of Judas Iscariot from a possessed victim.

>>706345

What the hell? Dead people can't possess the living. Only demons can do that. And why would Judas do that if he killed himself because of his heavy consciousness? He's probably crying in some corner in hell while the devil is beating him up.

>>706360

>Dead people can't possess the living.

Modernist bullshit. Take a look at what Christians in the past believed. I know it's shocking because you by default assume what you were taught is the way it's always been.

>>706363

I'm gonna ask you for proof for that brother.

As far as I know only demons possess people, and demons are angels, not wicked souls.

>>706365

Read Traugott Konstantin Oesterreich's book on possession. He was born in the 1800's.

>>706377

Sounds Russian. Ortho or Catholic?

>>706379

He was German.

>>706384

Therefore Catholic. I'll dig up on the subject then.

>>706360

>He's probably crying in some corner in hell while the devil is beating him up.

Disney """theology""", ladies and gentleman

>>706388

>Disney """theology"""

Sublime

>>706390

Why does my IP constantly changes? Its getting frustrating

>>706388

Don't blame me for not bring able to picture hell like it is irl.

>>706301

Fr. Amorth's book suggests damned souls may be tied with specific demons, largely due to occult activity. Whether it is because God has damned them and they are left to the demons, or because the damned cling to the demons that they abandoned God for, is an open question.

>>706360

Hell's more like Inferno, where the demons are mashing their teeth in rage and eternal pain, and the damned are caught between it. That's the impression I get anyway. Hell isn't a happy place for demons.

>>706360

Oh, and additionally, Fr. Amorth claimed to exorcise several damned souls from a little girl. You may be misunderstanding possession as a whole, it's not often that it's just one demon, but can be a host, or a legion, as in the scriptures.

>>706602

The best description of hell is like the one Fátima showed to Lúcia. Of course that I think no one actually thinks the devil is having fun downthere.

And yeah of course Mary magdalene(?) had seven demons inside her. The question here is the following. Can damned souls possess people like demons do or demons just larp as those persons, probably to make those damned suffer even more and the living as well.

>>706606

I would assume the damned follow the demon(s) in, like an open door. Demons can larp as anyone, but under pain of exorcism they are compelled to tell the truth, this is something we need to take into account. I'm not sure of any instance where a damned soul spilled the beans and admitted they were simply demons.

>>706607

Yes it's probable. If I were a demons I'd take a soul with me while I was shitting up his kid or something. Pain for the soul and for the kid that know knows daddy is on hell. Two in one.

>>706608

*if I was a demon

>>706602

>Whether it is because God has damned them and they are left to the demons

Well, from Ortho perspective at least thats stupid

>because the damned cling to the demons that they abandoned God for

I dont know about that, but judging from what I've heard from monks, I'll assume that this is also stupid.

>>706608

Fug, don't possess me after you die.

>>706608

Demons can """take soul with them""", as only God has authority over us.

Though…you gave me an idea or two in case if I'll be damned :^)

>>706608

>>706679

pls don't haunt me after you die

>>706679

*can't

>>706681

dont worry m8. I'll just be "sitting" around, slamming the pots to troll you.