/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>702116

>I'm interested in Orthodoxy… But I don't want to upset my mother.

<He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I would advise you to convert secretly but if your mother asks, then say it outright and do not lie to her.You are an adult and should be responsible for your church life.

>>702116

I think you're blowing this out of proportion - all you have said is "I'm thinking of attending some interesting church". It's not like you're going to walk into an Orthodox church and walk out an Orthodox, attending a church can only be a good thing! Pray to God for guidance, and if you are interested, meditate on why - it could be that which you seek is also present in your current church.

>>702121

Thanks man, so what if I convert secretly, and she asks me to go mass with her when i'm back from college? Should i outright say no? Should I accept but refuse communion? Should I accept, take communion, and then when I go back to college confess to the priest?

>>702124

>I think you're blowing this out of proportion

I probably am, but I'm quite a nervous, shy, reserved, and neurotic person generally. I am getting better and growing in confidence, but it's a slow process and I pray God be with me through it all.

>It's not like you're going to walk into an Orthodox church and walk out an Orthodox

True.

>Pray to God for guidance, and if you are interested, meditate on why - it could be that which you seek is also present in your current church.

I will do brother, thanks for the advise.

>>702125

I think that you should be honest and stop hiding it if such situations arise. Its better to be straightforward, rather than deceitful.

>>702129

Would it be permissible to attend a Catholic mass with her though if I convert? So I could say straight up that i'm Orthodox but would that prevent me from going mass with her?

>>702129

I forgot to add to >>702130 that my mother is a recovering alcoholic (sort of), so i like to go mass with her to make sure she doesn't drink the wine.

>>702130

>>702131

I would think that going on a mass with her on occasions is ok, but you cannot participate in Eucharist.

Also, lets be frank, this is a matter that one should consult with his spiritual father, which I am not.

>>702132

>Also, lets be frank, this is a matter that one should consult with his spiritual father, which I am not.

I'll probably get acquainted with the local Orthodox priest, and i'll probably raise these concerns with him, thanks for the advise though.

>>702133

You're welcome, I hope that I was somewhat useful for you.

>>702116

Why become Orthodox instead of Catholic? Why not Eastern Catholic even?

>>702130

It would be better to not to. But if she is oversensitive about it you should go from time to time if you don't want to upset her. It's not that you are sinning if you attend a heterodox church for a reason, especially for people who live in majority Catholic countries. Sin would be only if you had doubts about which the true faith is.

>>702153

>>702141

I am interested in Eastern Catholicism, but there are no eastern churches nearby, so the only real way to experience eastern Christianity is through Orthodoxy atm.

>>702144

See above. If there was a nearby Eastern Rite church then I would go and check it out.

>>702154

I don't know much about eastern Catholicism but i know that it only differs aesthetically from Catholicism, the theology is the same. It's a different thing to be Orthodox than to look like Orthodox.

Anyway maybe you should just visit the church for a start and see where the Holy Spirit will take you.

>I'm worried that If i attend the Orthodox church, and if I choose to convert, then i'll sort of be abandoning my mother if that makes sense.

I know exactly what you mean. I went (well really, am going) through something very similar myself.

You don't have to tell her that you're visiting an Orthodox church for the first time, but absolutely do not convert secretly. That's terrible advice, unless your life would be in danger or something like that (which I don't think is the case). I understand not wanting to disappoint your mother or damage the relationship, but I believe that you do not honor or respect your parents as God commands by keeping such secrets from them. If you become serious about it, you need to talk to her, however hard that may be (trust me, I know it's hard).

If you do find Orthodoxy to be true and end up converting, then do not view it as betraying your mother. Rather, see it as finding the fullness and completion of the faith she gave you. I pray for you in your journey, God bless.

>>702158

Expanding on these thoughts, if you do find Orthodoxy to be true, why would you not want to share it with your mother? If it's the truth then she should know it. Why would you not want to give back to she who gave you so much?

>>702141

good joke.

>>702156

The theology is pretty the same as Orthodox, minus being schismatic. EO like to point out how they're different than the latins because they use different bread or language to describe things that are exactly the same in the RCC, and don't bring up the filioque because that's nitpicking and grasping at straws

>>702116

What, you don't like Novus Ordo or the pope so now you want to go into schism and heresy? You're risking your soul because their churches are prettier and their ceremonies are more solemn? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just asking. It's just that it seems to me you want to convert because of the overall aesthetic and that's not a good thing to commit apostasy over.

>>702170

>it seems to me you want to convert because of the overall aesthetic and that's not a good thing to commit apostasy over.

but OP did not say anything remotely like that. where did you get that idea from?

>>702171

>so the only real way to experience eastern Christianity is through Orthodoxy atm.

>If there was a nearby Eastern Rite church then I would go and check it out.

>check it out, experience

Like a tourist picking his religion on a buffet table. I'll go out on a limb and assume he's not leaving over the filioque and purgatory.

>>702172

tbh, you are sounding a little cultish, fam. I know the clergy scandals have everyone a little unsettled, but it is natural to be curious of another's practice.

>>702173

I asked a legitimate question and expressed valid concerns about the motivations of his apostasy. How I sound to you, I couldn't care less.

>>702116

I’d pray on it and see what God says to do. I bet you that your ma will accept you for who are, even if you’re in a different sect than she is.

>>702169

Catholicism and Orthodoxy are like different religions at this point. Catholics desperately try to convince people that they look alike to gain some credit and to confuse people that are interested in Orthodoxy but the truth always prevails.

>>702169

>The theology is pretty the same as Orthodox, minus being schismatic.

no…

>>702261

Give me an example of Eastern Orthodox theology that isn't Catholic aside from the obvious schismatic view on the church

>>702236

>Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 841: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

>>702263

>Papal Supremacy

>Papal Infallibility

>Filioque

>Divine Simplicity

>Original Sin

>Immaculate Conception of Mary

>Created Grace

>Purgatory

>Forcing Priestly Celibacy

>Scholasticism

>Dogmatism

Then there are minor, more autistic topics like unleavened bread and so on.

>>702263

>papal supremacy and infallibility

The Orthodox claim to believe that the bishop of Rome is the first among equals, but since schisming this means nothing. It's always been understood that the Rome would settle disputes and councils, and that the pope of Rome and successor of Peter had the last say. The Orthodox have no way of holding any more councils, there is no first among equals for them because of there separation from the larger church. The Eastern Catholics are closer to the early church than the Orthodox, and are more honest about their theology

>Filioque

This isn't an important issue, nobody knows the exact metaphysical workings of God, what we do know is what he's commanded of the church to spread the gospel to all nations and the moral law. Unity is more important than who's right about esoteric theological speculations

>Divine Simplicity

I'm not an expert on this but I have a feeling it's no different than other issues that Orthodox claim as reasons for separating from Rome

>Original Sin

The effects on the fall are the same in the west and east, in my eyes this distinction is not as big as it's made out to be by schismatics

>Immaculate Conception of Mary

Eastern Christians have always believed this but never had it authoritatively defined, this is a similar theme throughout most of these differences and excuses to separate from Western Christians

>Created Grace

Again esoteric theological speculations on the nature of God's metaphysical workings are not important, there's room to discuss these things within the universal church, I have a feeling the Eastern view on these things are a result of differences in language and culture

>Purgatory

Eastern Christians absolutely believe in purgatory, they don't describe it in the same way as the west, have you ever heard of Toll houses? Eastern Christians believe that the souls of those who love God will be purified by God's light, this is what Catholics believe about purgatory. It's the same concept, not a reason for schism

>Forcing Priestly Celibacy

Priestly celibacy is superior and a discipline not a theological or moral truth, however Rome allows the Eastern Rites to have married priests.

>Dogmatism

This is a meaningless term, the church has always believed in objective truth and revelation, I think a lot of people become Orthodox because they believe that it's somehow more relativistic than the RCC and that makes them feel better. Read the early church fathers, they were all very dogmatic just as Jesus Christ is.

Congratulations for following the retarded example of Eastern bishops 10 centuries ago. Way to go anon.

>>702154

Wait so you're saying you want to be an ortho because Eastern rites look cool?

You need to convert for the doctrine and truth, not by looks. That's just retarded imo. Byzantine rite looks great but I would never attend an ortho church for that, I would prefer my novos ordo parish 1 billion times more, because the teachings would be true, not some half assed truth mixed with anti Latin autism.

>>702116

I suppose you will find out that the first visible difference between being Orthodox and being Catholic is the changes in your life that the Orthodoxy will bring to you in a way that is difficult to explain. Your goal is no longer to keep yourself from a certain mortal sins. Your goal is nothing less than sainthood. And the more you move towards this great goal, the more the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to see the corruption and the ugliness of the sin living in you.

>Should I go and if I convert keep it a secret?

Let your love be your guide because God is love. (1 John 4:7) It is great that you are concerned about your mother.

There is no need to trouble your mother if you want to visit an Orthodox Church. But if you feel the things are becoming serious, then don't keep this secret from her. How is she going to feel when she eventually learns about your conversion? It is better to tell her duly. If she becomes disturbed, then hug her, weep about her, let her feel that you genuinely love her. And pray that through your love your mother will find her way to the Orthodox Church. If she is a recovering alcoholic, then this will be of great help for her. Maybe you can talk her to come with you once or twice? Just remember: never argue with her, let God work in her heart, your duty is to love her.

As for the dogmatic disputations, my advice is to disregard them for now. Observe, however, one important difference between the Orthodox Christians and the Catholics, a difference which is plain obvious even in this thread: the Orthodox Christians are uncompromising about the faith. Change nothing, add nothing, don't unite with the lie. Catholics, on the other hand, always try to prove that the Orthodox theology is like the Catholic. This is the spirit of Vatican 2. Let us be brothers, the differences are unimportant. The Catholic unity is not unity in faith but unity around a worldly pope. This is the spirit that will lead eventually to the world religion of the Antichrist.

>>702300

I hope for your soul that this is ignorance and not lying.

>>702375

>Change nothing, add nothing, don't unite with the lie. Catholics, on the other hand, always try to prove that the Orthodox theology is like the Catholic.

Could you stop lying for a minute? Why do you orthos always lie? Stop beating false witness. If you don't know what you're talking about shut your mouth.

Pls do tell when the Catholic Church changed one of its teachings. I'm waiting.

All youre going to cry is my spirit of Vatican II and Fr. James Martin which mean nothing since the opinion of sinners doesn't matter.

>>702380

>Pls do tell when the Catholic Church changed one of its teachings.

The spirit of Vatican 2 is not about relinquishing one own beliefs. It is about accepting the beliefs of the others.

>>702385

Oh boy I'd like a source right now. Hmm you don't have one right?

I couldn't care less about what one or two modernists say about something. What retards say isn't Catholic doctrine.

>but muh VII ecumenism

Wow trying to convert prots and orthos is wrong now. Great. Let's make the Catholic Church a closed up national Church like yours. Sure it worked out for you guys. Nice one spreading the gospel around the world. That's why Asia and South America are orthodox now.

>>702389

I suppose the Gospel spreads easier when you use the sword like the Muslims?

>>702390

Give me an example.

>muh South america

>muh Spaniards.

That's why their native population is a mix between Europeans and natives unite the Brits that wiped out the native population.

That's why Pope Eugene IV and others such as the Society of Jesus always stoop up for the rights of the native people and against slavery. And the aztechs only died because Spaniards brought with them lethal bacteria with them and the natives died because they weren't immune to it.

The only colonisers who truly used the sword in the way you claim were the Brits even though their missionary efforts were shit (probably because they killed every Indian). But even Brits had more courage the you guys that stayed in your homeland scratching your asses while getting winnie the poohed by Muslims, internal divisions and lastly being overruled my communists and letting stalin in charge during the regime. And lastly allowing divorce because some king or Prince wanted to do it.

Unchanging Faith™

Ancient Faith™

>>702300

I will ignore most parts, due to you missing the point in the most and the fact that I am both lazy and am awful at talking or formulating my opinions.

But

>Eastern Christians absolutely believe in purgatory, they don't describe it in the same way as the west, have you ever heard of Toll houses? Eastern Christians believe that the souls of those who love God will be purified by God's light, this is what Catholics believe about purgatory. It's the same concept, not a reason for schism

First of all, Tollhouses are not dogmatic and this is a really big nuance. In fact, numerous Orthodox outright reject it

And those who accept it do not consider it as places (which is moronic) or state of soul of purification even, but metaphor of our life, while tollhouses being our consciousness and demons there being metaphors for our sins, like Palamas says, or rather as St Cyril of Alexandria says: “each person is bound by the cords of his own sins.”

And third point connected to the first, is that unlike how some modern day clerics try to make it universal (mostly ones that are roseboos) tollhouses were designed for the use in monastic life and must be understood with this in mind, as well as general attitudes at the time (when tax collectors were considered to be subhumans).

Overall, its neither dogmatic, nor universally accepted, but rather designed for specific pedagogical task for specific community. It is not "Orthodox Purgatory"

>>702396

>The only colonisers who truly used the sword in the way you claim were the Brits even though their missionary efforts were shit (probably because they killed every Indian). But even Brits had more courage the you guys that stayed in your homeland scratching your asses while getting winnie the poohed by Muslims, internal divisions and lastly being overruled my communists and letting stalin in charge during the regime. And lastly allowing divorce because some king or Prince wanted to do it.

You know, this post shows exact problems that I have with Catholics (not Catholicism but specifically Catholics.)

I'm sorry that we didnt have Atlantic ocean open to exploit for colonization and conquest and general access to the world, instead of having to fight for survival.

I'm sorry that majority of world powers including yours worked for our demise or exploited critical situation of Orthodox Christians.

I'm sorry that Bagutte and Anglo allied with the turks every time Orthodox tried to do something against the invaders.

I'm sorry that literally every rival faction financed and supported communists to weaken Russian Empire and lead to its ruin, and to break Sykes-Picot-Sazanov pact, (last part always omitted of course). And this is rich coming from a Georgian who's lands are occupied by Russia. But abhorrent ignorance that I see in (you)r and similar posts forced me to play the devils advocate.

Only thing I hope, that at least on the deathbed, or after death when you will review your life, you will see all the filth that is coming from your wicked heart when making posts like this.

>>702116

My whole fathers side is catholic, you just do what you gotta do and I’m Orthodox

>>702415

I'm sorry but you had all Asia to convert. And don't come up with the shit of you're just lucky ottomans didn't invade you.

Protestants for example had more chances than Catholic to spread their gospel and they couldn't do it. It tells us something.

It's fun to see orthodoxs be arrogant as first shitting on everyone "my ancient faith winnie the pooh you Latin cuck" but when someone pays you back in the same way you go back to a corner and cry calling us wicked and pls repent.

The same happen for example when Pius IX invited you guys to watch the Vatican I, but your patriarch answered the lowest way possible. 200 years later shit is going bad to you and now you guys cry poor orthodoxs commies were bad for us. Stop being evil to us Latin.

>>702300

Schismatic thinking right here

>>702649

I'm not even that guy, you moron. I even stood up with you guys on both 4chan and 8chan, when there was topic about something we agreed about.

>you had all Asia to convert.

You too. And yet only Catholic countries in Asia, for some odd and unexplainable reason, are former colonies of Spain and Portugal with formerly pagan' populations.

>Protestants for example had more chances than Catholic to spread their gospel and they couldn't do it. It tells us something.

Only thing that is telling us something is that, alongside radiating odium from your heart, you're also either historically illiterate or simply maliciously lie.

>And yet only Catholic countries in Asia, for some odd and unexplainable reason, are former colonies of Spain and Portugal with formerly pagan' populations.

Because China was a Portuguese colony besides Macau?

Or that most of India belonged to England a great Catholic country right?

>Only thing that is telling us something is that, alongside radiating odium from your heart, you're also either historically illiterate or simply maliciously lie.

What is that supposed to mean? Aren't you aware of the evangelising efforts of Anglicans for example?

And what with that "malicious lie"?

In fact it was your friend that said I quote "Observe, however, one important difference between the Orthodox Christians and the Catholics, a difference which is plain obvious even in this thread: the Orthodox Christians are uncompromising about the faith." or your friend is the ignorant one or is he lying.

I would like people before saying shit have their facts checked and I can't tolerate having loudmouths saying lies pretending their smart.

And That's how that shit started. Some people think they know too much and when they can't support their opinions they resort to "your evil and you lie". I would like to know why.

>>702650

>believing that there's no good reasons for the east and west to not be in communion

>schismatic

??

>>702840

The only major difference between the two churches, is Catholics have a predominately homosexual clergy, while Orthodox do not allow homosexuality. So if you are gay or hang out with gays go Catholic, if not go Orthodox.

>>702843

There are good people and bad people in the church, it's not an excuse for schism. Jesus Christ prayed that we would all be one, not muh Russian church/muh Ukrainian church/muh Greek church/muh Coptic church. The schism was a divorce within the body of Christ, pride and egotism is tearing him apart.

>702116

Are you me?

>>702744

>Because China was a Portuguese colony besides Macau?

>Or that most of India belonged to England a great Catholic country right?

Then stop spewing such moronic statements as "you had all Asia to convert.", while what was conquered at XIX century already had massive Muslim population, or bordered large empires such as China and only normal communications there were established at middle of XIX century

You had far better position in every way, Reached far East by XVI century and yet you didn't use it as you could.

>What is that supposed to mean?

It means that you are either ignorant in history or presenting false headcanon, not realizing that Catholic empires had control over entire south America, half of Africa and large portions of Asia and yet you state something stupid and blatantly false statement as "Protestants for example had more chances than Catholic to spread their gospel". Though it must be noted that SA is becoming more and more Protestant over time.

Only loudmouth here is one guy that has darkened heart and spewing hatred for us. I would simply advise you to cut your Internet cable and go to the monastery to clean yourself from the filth of arrogance.

>>702746

I didnt had any kind of opinion about the subject until certain pretentious prick with typical behavior of a pathetic annoying Internet prick (And I know lots of them on my national forum) started throwing shit at us, swearing, and vomiting Odium at Orthodox. Mere statement "your homeland scratching your asses while getting winnie the poohed by Muslims" demonstrates the hatred this abominable subhuman has. Would you like if some degenerate prick would state that Orthodoxy was spreading in Russia, while Catholics got sexually assaulted by Moors?

I personally have sympathies towards Catholicism, but your """"people"""", at least on this board, is atrocious and cancerous.

>>702415

>And this is rich coming from a Georgian who's lands are occupied by Russia

Didn't Georgia ask for help to Catholic countries like France to be protected from the Muslims (back in the XVIII century or so)? And the response from the West was exactly the same as in the 2008 war. Catholicism is Western after all…

>>702856

We asked several times throughout history since XV century (I wont count Crusaders, thats a bit different story) to either assemble coalition, join coalition or merely help us against Ottomans. All of them were futile and being isolated from rest of Europe, our political elite didnt realize that France was allied to Ottomans against Habsburgs. Though to be honest, this wasnt even solely fault of the west. Russia tried to gain maximal influence here so he offed ambassadors that Heraclius II sent to Habsburgs to leave him with only option to side with Russians.

With that being said, while Catholic countries themselves were degenerate self-obsessed morons, Catholics themselves aided us somewhat, mostly in cultural and social affairs, so theres that.