/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

What was wrong with the last thread?

>>700057

I made a typo. Sorry.

It's a wild ride. If you enjoy Revelation then brace yourself because the Book of Enoch is like if Elijah's vision, Revelation and Ecclesiastes got together and smoked DMT.

Jokes aside, it's a very interesting read. Lots of interesting visions of the nature of the heavens and heirarchies of the angels.

iirc there are a few churches that hold it as canon… possibly the Ethiopian, Coptic and early Eastern Orthodox but it's been a while since I was reading about its history.

I would say it's 100% worth a look since it's quoted in canon but nearly 100% of Christian scholars would say it falls short of qualifying as canonical scripture.

>>700055

If it was in the bible it would be an OT so think of that what you will.

>Most Christian denominations and traditions may accept the Books of Enoch as having some historical or theological interest, but they generally regard the Books of Enoch as noncanonical or noninspired.

You should definitely read it because it explains some stuff in Genesis in greater detail, but also because it has some of the most compelling prophecies of Jesus in all of Hebrew scripture. It also lines up much more closely with Christian theology than Jewish theology.

>There I beheld the Ancient of days, whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was and why he accompanied the Ancient of days.

>He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwelt; and who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness.

>This Son of man, whom you behold, shall raise up kings and the mighty from their dwelling places, and the powerful from their thrones; shall loosen the bridles of the powerful, and break in pieces the teeth of sinners.

>He shall hurl kings from their thrones and their dominions; because they will not exalt and praise him, nor humble themselves before him, by whom their kingdoms were granted to them. The countenance likewise of the mighty shall He cast down, filling them with confusion. Darkness shall be their habitation, and worms shall be their bed; nor from that their bed shall they hope to be again raised, because they exalted not the name of the Lord of spirits.

>They shall condemn the stars of heaven, shall lift up their hands against the Most High, shall tread upon and inhabit the earth, exhibiting all their acts of iniquity, even their works of iniquity. Their strength shall be in their riches, and their faith in the gods whom they have formed with their own hands. They shall deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and shall expel him from the temples, in which they assemble;

>And with him the faithful, who suffer in the name of the Lord of spirits.

>>700072

>In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell deliver up from hers, that which it has received; and destruction shall restore that which it owes.

>He shall select the righteous and holy from among them; for the day of their salvation has approached.

>And in those days shall the Elect One sit upon his throne, while every secret of intellectual wisdom shall proceed from his mouth, for the Lord of spirits has gifted and glorified him.

>In those days the mountains shall skip like rams, and the hills shall leap like young sheep satiated with milk; and all the righteous shall become like angels in heaven.

>Their countenance shall be bright with joy; for in those days shall the Elect One be exalted. The earth shall rejoice; the righteous shall inhabit it, and the elect possess it.

Honestly, the Book of Revelation is simply the Book of Enoch redux

>>700055

Well, it says one of the fallen angels was called Azazel, but as far as I know Bible says Azazel was a place not an angel, so for that reason among others it isn't considered canon

Thus the Lord commanded the kings, the princes, the exalted, and those who dwell on earth, saying, Open your eyes, and lift up your horns, if you are capable of comprehending the Elect One. The Lord of spirits sat upon the throne of his glory. And the spirit of righteousness was poured out over him. The word of his mouth shall destroy all the sinners and all the ungodly, who shall perish at his presence. In that day shall all the kings, the princes, the exalted, and those who possess the earth, stand up, behold, and perceive, that he is sitting on the throne of his glory; that before him the saints shall be judged in righteousness; And that nothing, which shall be spoken before him, shall be spoken in vain.

Trouble shall come upon them, as upon a woman in travail, whose labour is severe, when her child comes to the mouth of the womb, and she finds it difficult to bring forth. One portion of them shall look upon another. They shall be astonished, and shall humble their countenance; And trouble shall seize them, when they shall behold this Son of woman sitting upon the throne of his glory. Then shall the kings, the princes, and all who possess the earth, glorify him who has dominion over all things, him who was concealed; for from the beginning the Son of man existed in secret, whom the Most High preserved in the presence of his power, and revealed to the elect.

He shall sow the congregation of the saints, and of the elect; and all the elect shall stand before him in that day. All the kings, the princes, the exalted, and those who rule over all the earth, shall fall down on their faces before him, and shall worship him. They shall fix their hopes on this Son of man, shall pray to him, and petition him for mercy. Then shall the Lord of spirits hasten to expel them from his presence. Their faces shall be full of confusion, and their faces shall darkness cover. The angels shall take them to punishment, that vengeance may be inflicted on those who have oppressed his children and his elect. And they shall become an example to the saints and to his elect. Through them shall these be made joyful; for the anger of the Lord of spirits shall rest upon them.

Then the sword of the Lord of spirits shall be drunk with their blood; but the saints and elect shall be safe in that day; nor the face of the sinners and the ungodly shall they thenceforwards behold. The Lord of spirits shall remain over them: And with this Son of man shall they dwell, eat, lie down, and rise up, for ever and ever. The saints and the elect have arisen from the earth, have left off to depress their countenances, and have been clothed with the garment of life. That garment of life is with the Lord of spirits, in whose presence your garment shall not wax old, nor shall your glory diminish.

Book of Enoch predicted the Great White Throne Judgement.

>>700074

The Bible doesn't say Azazel is a place. My particular version even has a footnote that says Azazel was probably a spirit being of the desert.

So not some specific place in the desert not mentioned elsewhere.

>>700100

Great video; checkmate, atheists.

>>700055

Jews extract the belief from it that Enoch was transformed into the Angel Metatron. They believe Metatron is a lesser YHWH and that he will come back at the end of time to be the Messiah.

>1. I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation and the firm foundations of the earth. 2. And I saw the corner-stone of the earth: I saw the four winds which bear [the earth and] the

firmament of the heaven. 3. ⌈⌈And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven⌉⌉, and have their station between heaven and earth: ⌈⌈these are the

>p. 45

>pillars of the heaven⌉⌉. 4. I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and all the stars to their setting. 5. I saw the winds on the earth carrying the clouds: I saw ⌈⌈the paths of the angels. I saw⌉⌉ at the end of the earth the firmament of the heaven above. And I proceeded and saw a place which burns day and night, where there are seven mountains of magnificent stones, three towards the east, and three towards the south. 7. And as for those towards the east, 〈one〉 was of coloured stone, and one of pearl, and one of jacinth, and those towards the south of red stone. 8. But the middle one reached to heaven like the throne of God, of alabaster, and the summit of the throne was of sapphire. 9. And I saw a flaming fire. And beyond these mountains 10. is a region the end of the great earth: there the heavens were completed. 11. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns ⌈⌈of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns⌉⌉ of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) ⌈for ten thousand years⌉.'

??????????????????????????

>>700072

> it has some of the most compelling prophecies of Jesus in all of Hebrew scripture. It also lines up much more closely with Christian theology than Jewish theology.

That makes it all the more puzzling as to why it wouldn't be included in the Bible.

>>700255

I apologise. I should have said Bibles used in all denominations.

>>700055

Not Scripture, but definitely worth a read.

1 Enoch is split into five sections: The Book of Watchers, The Book of Parables of Enoch, The Astronomical Book / The Book of (Heavenly) Luminaries, The Book of Dream Visions, and the Epistle of Enoch. While it isn't Scripture, it was likely viewed as Scripture by some early Christians (and the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church now), as Jude's quote of it suggests. In spite of it's being non-canonical, it definitely has a very Christian ring to it and fills in a lot of things that are not talked about in the Bible.

>>700245

>That makes it all the more puzzling as to why it wouldn't be included in the Bible.

It isn't included in the Biblical Canon (save the EOTC's) because it was never included in the Septuagint, which is the basis for the Christian OT (which the text would have had to have been a part of, as it was written before Christ, prior to A.M. 987 when Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven).

You also have 2 Enoch (The Book of the Secrets of Enoch / Slavonic Enoch) and 3 Enoch (The Hebrew Book of Enoch / The Book of Palaces / The Book of Rabbi Ishmael the High Priest / The Revelation of Metatron), but these appear to be pseudepigraphic works made a long time after their purported writing (I personally didn't enjoy them as much as 1 Enoch either).

Only thing I know about it it

>tfw no angelic waifu.

based on all the memes around here (including that of Jay Dyer).

>>700055

What language is that? It looks like Amharic.

>>700353

Its Ge'ez

It’s terrifying and made me fear God even more than I did.

If the visions were truly inspired, then purgatory is definitely real

It's an interesting book, but any Christian knows it absolutely heretic not to mention it is an obvious fraud of course.

Enoch (1 Enoch), the book of Jasher (book of the Righteous) and the book of Jubilees are all supported by scripture in the Bible and also agree with one another.

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man, Enoch was written for our generation.

The Essenes thought it was important, Jude quoted it directly, Genesis chapter 6 talks about the flood, 2 Samuel 1:18, Joshua 10:13 call the book of Jasher by name, I don't know enough about Jubilees to say anything on it beyond that it tells a similar story.

The tl;dr of all of them is as such:

200 angels(called watchers because their job was to watch and subtly guide humanity) rebelled against God and made a pact with one another to come down to earth and have children with human women. (their reason for doing this was to corrupt the seed of man to prevent the redeemer from being able to be born, it obviously didn't work)

Their offspring were the giants, incredibly unbelievably large in the first generation, getting smaller after that.

The watchers taught various technologies to humanity, among them being how to make implements of war, how to make cosmetics, how to perform abortions, astrology, etc.

The offspring of the fallen angels, called giants, nephilim and mighty men trampled the whole earth, killed, ate and raped humans and committed every kind of degeneracy.

From the actions of the watchers, their offspring and the sins of the sons of Cain all flesh on the earth was corrupted, man, beast, fowl and every creeping thing. There are other texts found among the dead sea scrolls that indicate that the fallen angels were mixing different animals dna and human dna and that the offspring of those experiments were literal monsters.

As judgment for all this evil God passed the judgement of the flood, made the watchers witness their offspring kill each other, he also had the watchers bound for 70 generations of mankind at which point some of them would be let out to lead mankind astray again, the souls of all their offspring are bound to the earth becoming disembodied spirits when they die, what we know of as demons.

In the last of days when the watchers are let loose and knowledge is increased in the earth the rebellion will be brought to its climax and the world will be cleansed by fire the second time, 2 Peter agrees with this.

I think it is inspired, when reading them there is a strong spirit of truth to them, I think they were removed because being forearmed with knowledge against these things would have prepared a great many more people for the schemes of the sons of darkness, but that the elect in these days will recognize the truth anyway.

Jesus is Lord

>>700993

Your "Book of Jasher" is a modern fake named after a long-lost book mentioned once in the Old Testament. The Old Testament refers to a few books of which nothing beyond those mentions is known. I could write something and call it, say, "The Book of the Wars of the Lord" but that doesn't mean that the original would have been restored.

>>701029

Not technically heretical but of concern for it being the Word of God because it teaches really wrong scientific things about the earth and universe. Unless we all want to be flat earther creationists then it certainly shouldn't be in the Bible.

>>701030

Literally nothing wrong with being a young earth creationist, and Enoch supports round earth theory in a similar manner to Isaiah if I remember right.

>>701031

No it doesn't, it says Enoch traveled to the end of the earth and could see where the firmament ended and it proceeds to say he went farther east "outside of the firmament". It also advocates geocentrism. It says that the sun and moon orbit around the earth and travel through portals every month. It's cosmology is outdated.

>>701032

*west

The way it was historically read was to disprove gnostics. The idea was that since angels were corrupt beings in the text it showed that gnostic view of the immaterial as inherently good was wrong.

>>701032

>employs heresy of imminantism and scientism to say that some Christian writing is heretical

The Church has never rescinded the condemnation of non geo centrism, so geo centrism probably is still the theory. From what we know now of space and that there is no "central point" of the universe, suddenly geo centrism makes more sense. Astronomers say geo centrism is a fine model to use but just requires more complicated maths which is why they use a heliocentric model instead (why is wrong seeing as we know the sun is not immobile)

>>700055

>>701029

While the Book of Enoch is an interesting read, it doesn’t mesh well with Genesis or the rest of the Bible and here’s why

Reproduction And Death:

>Wherefore have you forsaken the lofty and holy heaven, which endures for ever, and have lain with women; have defile yourselves with the daughters of men; have taken to yourselves wives; have acted like the sons of the earth, and have begotten an impious offspring? You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do. These however die and perish. Therefore have I given to them wives, that they might cohabit with them; that sons might be born of them; and that this might be transacted upon earth. - Enoch 15:2-5

Vs.

>So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” - Genesis 1:27-28 (this was BEFORE Eve ate the fruit of knowledge and convinced Adam to eat it which caused death and sin throughout the world)

>Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. - Romans 5:12

Reputation of The Nephilim:

>Now the giants, who have been born of spirit and of flesh, shall be called upon earth evil spirits, and on earth shall be their habitation. Evil spirits shall proceed from their flesh, because they were created from above; from the holy Watchers was their beginning and primary foundation. Evil spirits shall they be upon earth, and the spirits of the wicked shall they be called. The habitation of the spirits of heaven shall be in heaven; but upon earth shall be the habitation of terrestrial spirits, who are born on earth. - Enoch 15:8

Vs.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and afterward as well, when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown. - Genesis 6:5

Continue

>>704183

Building of the Ark:

>Now then shall the angels labour at the trees; but when they proceed to this, I will put my hand upon it, and preserve it. The seed of life shall arise from it, and a change shall take place, that the dry land shall not be left empty. I will establish your seed before me for ever and ever, and the seed of those who dwell with you on the surface of the earth. It shall be blessed and multiplied in the presence of the earth, in the name of the Lord. - Enoch 66:2-3 (according to Knibb “labour at the trees” in verse 2 means building a wooden structure or Ark)

Vs.

>And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he. - Genesis 6:13-22

>By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. - Hebrews 11:7

Salvation:

>The second is he who presides over every suffering and every affliction of the sons of men, the holy Raphael. The third, who presides over all that is powerful, is Gabriel. And the fourth, who presides over repentance, and the hope of those who will inherit eternal life, is Phanuel. These are the four angels of the most high God, and their four voices, which at that time I heard.

Vs.

Jesus

>>704183

No, I don't see any contradiction. On the contrary, the texts in the excerpts mesh perfectly together.

#1: The first comparison pair doesn't even talk about the same thing! There is no contradiction. Adam's sin is separate from the angels' later sin.

#2: Being mighty and being evil is in no way contradictory. You may remember that after that Genesis passage the Earth soon becomes filled with evil for some reason.

>>704186

#3: So Enoch is suggesting that the Ark was not entirely mundane and had some supernatural qualities imbued to it. Given the technical limitations of wood, such enhancements could have been useful for safety and other considerations.

For comparison:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_wooden_ships

#4: Again not talking about the same thing. Enoch is talking about the archangels, who have their place in Christian theology. I notice you skipped Michael from the beginning of the list.

Paul quotes Aristotle multiple times. Are the writings of Aristotle scripture?

>>704341

> yes there is contradiction because the Book of Enoch is flat out saying that humans were only allowed to reproduce because they are mortal while in Genesis they were given the ability to reproduce before eating the Fruit of Knowledge (as in before they became mortal)

Is there any evidence of this? Abel, Cain and Seth are only mentioned after the fall, there is no indication that Adam and Eve could reproduce before the fall. If they could then wouldn't an endlessly exponentially reproducing immortal species cause quite a few issues?

I looked up the Book of Jubilees

>Jubilees also contains a few scattered allusions to the Messianic kingdom. Robert Henry Charles wrote in 1913: "This kingdom was to be ruled over by a Messiah sprung, not from Levi – that is, from the Maccabean family – as some of his contemporaries expected – but from Judah. This kingdom would be gradually realized on earth, and the transformation of physical nature would go hand in hand with the ethical transformation of man until there was a new heaven and a new earth. Thus, finally, all sin and pain would disappear and men would live to the age of 1,000 years in happiness and peace, and after death enjoy a blessed immortality in the spirit world."

Another book the Jews memoryholed because it conclusively showed the Christian idea of the messiah was correct.

>>704490

I mean, Adam and Eve fell on day 1, so it's not like they had much of a chance to reproduce lol

>>704490

>Is there any evidence of this?

Well either trace back the reply posts to the see the chapter and verse that was notifying the disparities or actually go to Genesis chapter 1 and 2 and understand how to read in sequence (it even implies it again in Genesis 2:24 and that’s before Genesis 3:1 where Eve gets tempted). Also basing on your posts, it looks similar to that anon that sperged out because he was told that his favorite fictional role model was going to the Lake of Fire for not believing in Christ

>>704520

The "disparities" are very weak, they're weaker than disparities between books in the actual Bible and I assume you have no problem reconciling those. The Book of Enoch is a legitimate addendum to Genesis, there are some things in Genesis which simply don't make any sense without it.

>When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Why did Enoch alone get the privilege of being whisked away to Heaven without experiencing death? The Book of Enoch explains this.

>The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Who the winnie the pooh are the "Nephalim" mentioned once and never again? The Book of Enoch explains this.

Despite what secular scholars might say the Book of Enoch was written before the book of Genesis. Genesis takes stuff from Enoch but not the other way around. It's also 100% in agreement with Christian theology while it conflicts greatly with Jewish theology. Even Jesus himself references concepts taking directly from the Book of Enoch.

>"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

What fire? There is no explanation for this anywhere in the Old Testament. There is the the Book of Enoch however.

>>704341

#1: As the other anon said, Adam and Eve only had children after the fall.

#2: I gather the Nephilim were supposed to have become spirit beings only after their deaths. But anyway, once again, having greatness as the world defines is not at all contradictory with being evil. Goliath for example may have been a great warrior, but we have no idea whether he was a nice person. The historical kings that are considered the greatest and have the most renown were the ones who went forth and conquered other nations to build empires of their own. You may also want to consider examples like the Greek mythology.

#3: I don't know who Knibb is and why I should trust his commentary.

#4: You know how a CEO can have underlings with specific missions while still being in charge of all that stuff? Archangels are attested in the Bible, and we know that angels do tasks.

>>704521

>Why did Enoch alone get the privilege of being whisked away to Heaven without experiencing death?

That Genesis 5:24 verse translation that you quoted already has a self-containing answer for that, “he walked faithfully with God”. Paul even made this more dead clear in Hebrews 11:5 “By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: ‘He could not be found, because God had taken him away.’ For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.”

Also Enoch wasn’t the only one that got to go to Heaven alive, Elijah did too (2 Kings 2:11)

>Who the winnie the pooh are the "Nephalim" mentioned once and never again?

You should probably read that Genesis 6:4 verse you quoted again very carefully it is right in front of you. Also Numbers 13:33 mentioned them again “We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim).”

>What fire? There is no explanation for this anywhere in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 33:14 “The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: ‘Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?’”

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

4/10 I suggest you sperge less and study the Bible more

>>704522

#1: That still doesn’t nullify that they were given the ability to reproduce in Genesis 1:27-28 and really heavily implied so in Genesis 2:24 both of which occurred before Genesis 3:1 where Eve starts to get tempted to eat the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil as already been iterated before in this thread which goes against the Enoch 15:2-5 statement that people were only allowed to reproduce because of mortality

#2: Not being nice does not equate to being evil unless you believe or still believe that getting shots from doctors, being force to eat fruits and vegetables, not being allowed to stay up late etc. is evil. Also with your implication of kings conquering nations as evil, that would be a subjective matter of perspective in a worldly sense as kings will always have their loyalists and sometimes nationalists who sees otherwise. Also I am sure most the inhabitants of Jericho from their perspective probably saw the invading Israelites as evil.

#3: Knibb is one of the translators of the Ethiopian texts of the Book of Enoch into English. If you don’t believe or trust him you could read R.H. Charles translations which made it a little more clear that the angels were building a “wooden (building)” aka “Ark” (Enoch 67:2 in that translation)

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe070.htm

>>700993

If nephilim are demons then wouldn't there be a lot of their corpses around? Because there are a lot of demons? I don't think we've ever found that many bones, and in anycase that amount would have to be in additon to all the human corpses

>>704565

>4/10 I suggest you sperge less and study the Bible more

Except that neither of those verses have anything to do with punishment for the devil and his angels. Only the Book of Enoch describes the fallen angels and their eventual punishment.

The verse in question if you're wondering

>Then I looked and turned to another face of the earth and saw there a valley, deep and burning with fire. And they were bringing kings and potentates and were throwing them into this deep valley. And my eyes saw there their chains while they were making them into iron fetters of immense weight.

>And I asked the angel of peace who was going with me, saying, “For whom are these imprisonments chains being prepared?”

>And he said unto me, “These are being prepared for the armies of Azazel, in order that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and as the Lord of the Spirits has commanded it, they shall cover their jaws with rocky stones. Then Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, and Phanuel themselves shall seize them on that great day of judgment and cast them into the furnace (of fire) that is burning that day, so that the Lord of the Spirits may take vengeance on them on account of their oppressive deeds which (they performed) as messengers of Satan, leading astray those who dwell upon the earth.”

>>704565

#1: The Bible does not always tell things in strict linear order where a later verse absolutely must take place later in time than an earlier verse. You sound like the people who talk about two different and incompatible creation accounts.

#2: I was saying that greatness as the world sees it and evil are not at all contradictory and are separate dimensiions. The word "hero" in the original Greek had no moral connotations. Being evil can in fact even aid greatness as the world sees it, because a successful conqueror is going to be remembered and trying to bring "subjective matters of perspective" to it only shows that you don't really believe in objective morality, which is Christian morality. Going forth and enslaving the neighboring tribes to make an empire is not at all comparable to taking care of children's bedtimes.

Do you even know what renown is? It is not being held in positive esteem by one's friends and family during one's lifetime and a short while afterwards.

#3: At best you're reading a translation of a translation of the original Enoch. You may need to add a few "of a translation" to it.

>>704569

Maybe human-angel hybrids have more aetherial body?

>>704747

#1: Riddle me this, why does Genesis 2 bother having “That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.” after God created Eve from Adam but not after Eve and or Adam ate the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil as to correlate with Enoch 15:2-5 idea of human reproduction? Genesis certainly had no problem telling linearly how we got permission to eat meat so why would it have a problem telling linearly why we were allowed to reproduce? Objectively Genesis 2 and onwards to the final chapter of the book is meant to be read and interpreted linearly but incase you want to contest this be my guess if you wish.

#2: Nice composition fallacy, I brought up those examples because it seems you are equating of not being nice to being evil. And I see you also miss “in a worldly sense”, not sure if you did that in order insert an ad hominem onto me but nonetheless I will let that part go since my character doesn’t matter in this discussion/debate/argument. Also since it seems you are still implying that conquering others to build an empire is an objective evil then let me ask you this question, even though they are technically a kingdom do you think the Israelites were evil in enslaving the Canaanites to force labor while controlling their villages and towns as described in Joshua 16:10 and 17:13 (assuming you are ok or don’t see wiping out entire villages, cities, towns, countries etc. as bad)?

#3: Should I then assume you can read ancient Ge’ez, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, and Hebrew?

>>704600

>Not my fault if anon didn’t specify and only left it at “what fire?”

He quoted the fire he was referring to

>Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

It's not my fault if you can't read and can't understand that "what fire" obviously means "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" in the immediately preceding quote

>>704832

#1: That sentence is referring to the present. The Bible occasionally inserts comments about the contemporary present in historical narratives. In more than one case these asides begin with "This is why…"

#2: I already used "worldly sense" in my original reply. I didn't mean to say that every single conqueror in world history was objectively evil, but rather that being evil could predispose someone to go on wars of aggression. Then the ones who are competent and lucky enough to make lasting conquests and found dynasties achieve greatness as the world sees it.

After all, my point was that the Nephilim having renown and being considered great while also being evil is not inherently contradictory.

#3: Reading Enoch you're not only relying on your favorite translator's opinion. You're also relying on whoever translated Enoch to Ge'ez. And if Enoch really is genuine, it would most likely have been originally written in a pre-Hebrew language.

Also the passage you quoted sounds like the translators' opinion is not necessarily correct. One version sounds more like what I said, and the other inserts a word in parentheses because the word wasn't there originally but the translator thought he knew what the text implied.

>>704341

>yes there is contradiction because the Book of Enoch is flat out saying that humans were only allowed to reproduce because they are mortal while in Genesis they were given the ability to reproduce before eating the Fruit of Knowledge (as in before they became mortal)

1) If Adam and Eve had sons before the fall man would reproduce unfallen beings according to the spirit. Since they did it after the fall they reproduce fallen mortal beings. It's simply a matter of perspective.