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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: cce2e81af4cf01b⋯.jpg (262.01 KB, 1000x1595, 200:319, Tajweed-Quran-with-case-10….jpg)

b61e59  No.698695

Mecca had a local tribe of Jews and heretical Christians that Muhammad could very easily learn Biblical and Talmudic stories from. Ibn Ishaq in his biography on Muhammad (edited by Ibn Hishām), and Muqatil ibn Sulayman in his Tafsir, reported that Muhammad used to be taught by Christian slaves named Jabr and Addas on the hill of Marwa as well as having reported that Muhammad was taught by a Jewish man named Abu Fakayha Yasar. (Muqatil b. Sulayman, Tafsir al-Qur'an, 2; Foreign slaves in Mecca and Medina in the formative Islamic period p. 345-350)

Many scholars believe the Qur'an began in a proto form as a liturgical lectionary among Arabian Nestorian Christians that was eventually redacted with various "revelations" that Muhammad received, and in a sense, Muhammad's revelations almost serve as a Midrash around the core of the original text; indeed when we read the very first chapter of the Qur'an, Al-Fatihah, we find that it does not sound like a revelation from Allah to Muhammad, as Muslims claim, but rather a liturgical prayer:

>In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

>[All] praise is [due] to Allah, Lord of the worlds -

>The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,

>Sovereign of the Day of Recompense.

>It is You we worship and You we ask for help.

>Guide us to the straight path -

>The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

>Al-Fatihah 1:1-7

(See: The Syro-Aramaic Reading Of The Qur'an, by Christoph Luxenberg for more info on this topic)

We also find in the Qur'an the main title for Jesus being "Son of Mary" instead of "Son of God" (Qur'an 4:171, Qur'an 9:31, Qur'an 5:72-75, Qur'an 5:116, etc.) which is exactly what the Nestorians (a heretical Christian sect in Arabia, Mesopotamia, and Persia in the 7th century) used to refer to Jesus. Further Muhammad refers to the Trinity as making God "the third of three" (Qur'an 5:73) and also he includes Mary in the Trinity (Qur'an 5:116, Qur'an 4:171), which was likely a Nestorian polemic against the Monophysites (another heretical Christian sect in southern Arabia, Egypt, and Ethiopia in the 7th century) who believed Jesus's human and divine nature mashed together to form a distinct divinity. This means that Nestorian Christianity heavily influenced Islamic Christology.

Further we see in the Qur'an numerous Talmudic stories like the story of Abraham and the Idols (Qur'an 21:51-70) which cannot be found in the Bible but originated only in the Talmud in the 2nd century; as well as psuedo-New Testament material not found in the current Christian New Testament but which was widely circulating among heretical Christian sects in Arabia and Mesopotamia at the time of Muhammad such as the story of Mary giving birth to Jesus under a palm tree (Qur'an 19:22-26) which cannot be found in the current New Testament but can be found in the Arabic Pseudo-Gospel of Matthew written about 10 years before Muhammad is claimed to have received his revelation.

Essentially Muhammad was heavily influenced by the local Nestorian Christians and Jews of Mecca and Medina who taught him much about their respective faiths. He took what he learned, claimed he had some revelations from their God, combined what he had learned from the Jews and Christians with a few already existing pagan Arabian practices (such as the Hajj), and had many of his supposed revelations redacted in a proto-Qur'an used as a liturgical text among local Christian to give birth to what we now know as the Qur'an, and boom Islam was born.

Muhammad wasn't even the only supposed Arabian prophet of that time, it's just that he proved most influential only because he got into conflict with the Quraysh and then went onto conquer Arabia from there. Other supposed prophets include: Musaylimah, Al-Aswad Al-Ansi, and most interestingly Zayd ibn Amr who lived before Muhammad, and who belong to a sect scholars call "the followers of Abraham." This sect was neither Jewish nor Christian but adopted elements from both and opposed idolatry, claiming to have worshiped the God of Abraham alone. They also promoted Hagarism, an early form of Arab supremacy. Muhammad likely picked up on all these ideas, and it's very likely Muhammad was influenced or even came into contact with this sect.

dcdb94  No.698699

File: 6ccf5be23ebb920⋯.webm (9.47 MB, 640x360, 16:9, They still think we worsh….webm)


dcdb94  No.698701

File: 9a72dbb6b641b92⋯.webm (11.63 MB, 640x360, 16:9, The bible is corrupted me….webm)


19e815  No.698709

tell this to /islam/

we already know it's a false gospel and their hadiths are a joke


b41f26  No.698946

This is very interesting speculations, although, personally I don't this is enough evidence to convince Muslims that Muhammad was a Nestorian. We need more information.


3308de  No.698948

>>698709

Eh, why bother getting a B&D over something they won't believe anyway?


b61e59  No.698967

File: 8029bc8c5d3db7b⋯.jpg (33.56 KB, 300x339, 100:113, isstonekaaba.jpg)

>>698887

Lol stop lying rock worshiper.


fbc392  No.699224

I missed the debunking part?


fbc392  No.699229

>>698699

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Rather, God raised him to Himself. And ever is God Exalted in Might and Wise.

4:157-158


fbc392  No.699235

>>699234

I'm a believer in the Quran, stupid.


ce910e  No.699237

>>699234

>>699235

>muslims try to run damage control on /christian/

>immediately start fighting amongst themselves

Like clockwork.


fbc392  No.699238

>>699237

we're not fighting.


0a212f  No.699240

>>698967

So that's how it looks like…


125ac4  No.699246

>>699229

Nice copy-paste of heresy of Basilides, further proving that Mohamed was a retard that couldnt separate authentic sources from heretical ones…like believing that Trinity was Father, Son and Mary


fbc392  No.699247

>>699245

no problem, I imagine it can get heated around here.

well, I don't know about the signs. but yea, things are interesting.


fbc392  No.699249

>>699246

I love you too brutha.


dcdb94  No.699345

File: 090856a6b606541⋯.png (157.03 KB, 567x567, 1:1, 4acc9d31f885ca05103f7b3de3….png)

>>699229

>And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them

Can you prove that? Forgive me if i have trouble trusting your word, since that one time you fabulous individuals pretended to have gone to a collage class that conveniently debunked the webm you're replying to.


09c450  No.699394

>>699250

Muslims have such low IQs.


68d332  No.699397

>>699229

So how was this other person made to resemble your Islamic Isa? Was he a hologram? Or a clone? Why did your pagan god want to save Isa's life with a hologram, and trick everyone into believing he was cricified?


3308de  No.699400

>>699394

That came from the Baptist Hotwheels, not from Muslims.


8550b9  No.699403

According to the quran, drinking camels urine is healthy

/thread


fbc392  No.699601

>>699345

those were not my words. I simply follow the most beautiful philosophy I can find.


fbc392  No.699607

>>699397

I don't know. that was just one translation. others say words to the effect of "they didn't crucify him, but it seemed like that to the people". it would be no biggie for God to accomplish any of those things you mention though, of course.

well, you know who the head trixer is. anyway, the point of the matter is that he wasn't crucified (thank God), and there is of course a lot more to this subject that would be interesting to know.


172946  No.699844

>>698701

Has any Muslim tried to refute this? It seems pretty airtight to me.


dcdb94  No.699872

>>699844

One pretended to refute it by saying he went to some made up collage class, when asked to elaborate he doubled down, even though it's directly quoting the Koran. I would like to hear a good muslim's answer to it though, but this board is counter discussion for better or worse (have you ever tried talking to a gnostic about Christianity? it's like talking to a brick wall).


3308de  No.699905

>>698701

Quite the conundrum there, though I'm sure the usual "you're using English translations, not Arabic" argument will happen.


fbc392  No.700215

>>699844

what part seems "airtight"?


28728d  No.700218

>>700216

The original gospel of Mark still had the resurrection

>But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

>“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

>Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.


172946  No.700250

>>700216

>strawmans

So is the guy in the video misquoting the Quran or not?


dcdb94  No.700260

File: 01dbd4f728b3aed⋯.webm (12.71 MB, 854x480, 427:240, The myth that the bible i….webm)

File: 48982985f3f18b1⋯.jpg (127.24 KB, 918x628, 459:314, 4e490333b64e4a4091c495dc42….jpg)

File: f4f5a33c5abffb8⋯.png (165.31 KB, 1755x574, 1755:574, Barabbas Theory.png)

>>700216

>>700231

>what part seems "airtight"?

<Nothing lol.

<(The original Gospel of Mark had no Resurrection story by the way if you take a look at the oldest scriptures available. That was just a fanfic Paul added in)

>The original gospel of Mark still had the resurrection...

<He was never killed.

<Also see picrelated for even more holes to be poked in the modern Bible

>the modern bible

>modern view

>(((Max Dimont)))

lol

>Other works include The Indestructible Jews, The Jews in America, and Appointment in Jerusalem.

>The whole story about the piercing in his body and the holes in his hand is stupid

Is that your professional opinion? Personally i think a heaven of porn theaters and x-ray skeleton girlfriends is pretty comical to me.

>and gets debunked in this video:

The video starts off with the be saying you can't trust the bible, well it's a good thing Christians have more than just the bible to provide evidence for the death and resurrection. This myth that the bible isn't reliable is a dead horse, webm related. It's like you guys just borrow old arguments from whatever obnoxious fedoras or anti-trinity false denominations are the most mainstream.

This argument of Jesus being a common name is also used on the Talmud, yet it speaks of specific spiritual contexts to the name Jesus.

Me, and many Christians here would have loved to consider your information, we miss the old Islam vs Christianity threads and a cooperative Muslim input would be welcomed, regardless of our strict mods. However, your spam has shown that you're not here to exchange. It's the same reason why New Agers, atheist, Gnostic, and now Muslims are removed, they will push debunked, misinformation, and false doctrine.


dcdb94  No.700267

File: 3e8ae35b6d45cce⋯.jpg (158.19 KB, 1000x778, 500:389, you   .jpg)

>>700264


172946  No.700270

>>700265

>>700264

>>700266

>Literally nothing of what you just said is an argument

Literally the same could be said of you. You accuse others of strawmanning and meming but you still haven't formulated a single coherent argument as to why the webm here >>698701 is false, and instead you have to resort to spamming your shitty infographic which again lacks any argumentation. If I didn't know any better I'd would say you were just larping as a Muslim just to amuse yourself by trolling here.


dd150d  No.700271

>>700270

Hey dude, but what's up with the whole Jesus Barabbas story thing? I see some Druze and Gnostics/Freemasons peddling it and the idea that the trial was between Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus Barabbas (which translated to Son of God). Could you debunk it please?


dcdb94  No.700272


dd150d  No.700274

>>700272

Yeah because it's my first point. I see this argument (the Jesus Barabbas argument) and I would like to see a refutation to it.


413381  No.700358

>>700274

A refutation of what? There's literally no evidence of it. There's enough historical evidence to indicate that Barabbas' given name was Jesus, but the fact that Barabbas means 'son of the Father' means nothing. It's literally just a conjecture, and the only references I can find to it anywhere online references one guy who just says something like "Well, the names are really similar, so this, of course, must be true." There's nothing to refute. It's just one guy pulling things out of his ass.


b906c2  No.700369

I wonder about the Jesus Barabbas thing too like maybe it's just bad reporting… like some jews were chanting "Release the son of the Father" and others were chanting "Crucify him" and someone reporting the account just goofed and didn't understand Hebrew and thought they must have been calling for someone else's release.

I mean are all eyewitness testimonies perfect? No. That's one of the reasons the synoptic gospels differ as Lee Strobel points out.

I'd actually like to hear it refuted by someone who has done more thinking on this topic because "Jesus Barabbas" is just a coincidence because it's a common name is like… wilfully retarded.


b906c2  No.700371


807a28  No.700386

File: e6a8cb7eb4c3a58⋯.gif (1.12 MB, 720x404, 180:101, 1510985259706.gif)

Quran doesn't even name Jesus properly. Instead of translating his Hebrew name (Jesus/Joshua) into Arabic, they transliterate the Greek pronounciation (Iesous).

Joshua is the English rendering of the Arabic Yusha, which is known as the name of the first prophet after Moses - Yusha bin Nun.

Jesus in Aramaic would be Jesus, Jesus` is found in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, along with the unshortened form Jesus` ("Joshua").

???????? lmao ????????????


807a28  No.700387

>>700386

wow the word filter (y.eshua) totally made my post incoherent^ lol


fbc392  No.700409

>>700386

Jesus is called Isa in the Quran and in arabic if I'm not mistaken.


807a28  No.700419

>>700409

Yes and that's wrong. If the revelation came from Allah he would know the correct translation, not slang Greek transliteration.


fbc392  No.700421

>>700419

well, it says son of Mary. or Maryam. or you have a problem with that word too?


c7b1b0  No.700496

>>699601

>I simply follow the most beautiful philosophy I can find

Only philosophy? Then what matter is faith to you in reality.


dcdb94  No.700498

>>700274

>and I would like to see a refutation to it.

Look at my post >>700260 the Barabbas post had no refute to it. It's doing a few things. Questioning the authenticity of the bible answered in the first webm. Check the other books by (Max Dimont) the source he posted, And finally he simple tells us that the "original" gospel of mark didn't have the resurrection, which can easily be corrected here >>700218

What hurts the credibility of the Barabbas post is how much of a blatant troll he is about his information, this is why few are engaging him.


3308de  No.700534

>>700524

There used to be a "Christianity vs Islam" general. It reached #11 then it died off. That would be the appropriate place for all of this.


a45412  No.700536

>>700524

The Barabbas theory makes no sense when you keep in mind

>At no point in the Bible is Jesus of Nazareth called the "Son of the Father," or "Barabbas." He is referred to as the Son of God. So your claim that Jesus is only referred to as Barabbas crucified is null and void

>Mary, Jesus's mother, was at the foot of the cross. She knew her son

>When the apostles meet Jesus after the crucifixion, he has holes in his hands and feet. Is that Barabbas too? Are you claiming Barabbas ascended into Heaven?


b6eed7  No.700545

>>700524

>Barabbas is the true Jesus

lmao I’ve never heard this before

Makes sense that Muslims see him as their true prophet though, since he, like Muhammad, was a common thief and a murderer


5f5c5b  No.700549

>>698695

The quran says drinking camels urine is healthy

/thread


dcdb94  No.700558

>>700524

>Can Christians actually make an argument against Islam without banning every Muslim that refutes their arguments?

You never refuted an argument, you just post your information and you just insist you're right, or pretend no argument has been presented to you.

>what part seems "airtight"?

<Nothing lol.

<(The original Gospel of Mark had no Resurrection story by the way if you take a look at the oldest scriptures available. That was just a fanfic Paul added in)

>The original gospel of Mark still had the resurrection...

<He was never killed.

<Also see picrelated for even more holes to be poked in the modern Bible

>the modern bible

>modern view

>(((Max Dimont)))

Enoy your new ban.


7486fe  No.700577

File: 5433a524127e48d⋯.jpg (940.61 KB, 3508x2480, 877:620, Lol.jpg)

>>700554

Just as Jesus predicted. You would stone and reject your Prophets.

What other reason do I have to bring the message of God to you?

>16th ban incoming

Enjoy the torment of the afterlife fellas

If you want proof of my Prophethood just pop over to /Islam/ and wake up


703613  No.700585

File: 478d769f494dbfc⋯.jpg (60.95 KB, 542x447, 542:447, Satanic evil vs Divine goo….jpg)

>>700577

Your "prophet" thrusted his penis between the thighs of a 6 (six) year old little girl named Aisha to massage it until orgasm; he did so because he didn't want to have full sexual intercourse with her until she reached 9 (nine) years of age. He is currently experiencing the eternal torments of Hell and you may meet him one day.

https://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aishas_Age_of_Consummation

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Aisha

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Sexuality#Aisha


3308de  No.700587

>>700577

>If you want proof of my Prophethood

According to Islam, Muhammad was the "last prophet". If that's true, then you can't be a prophet. Either that or you're not Muslim.


775aab  No.700588

Muslims belittle Paul for having a spiritual vision of Christ yet their Muhammad had a vision of a being he couldn't even identify until his wife's cousin said it was Gabriel because he was "familiar" with Jewish and christian scripture….

How dubious is that.


775aab  No.700590

>>700585

That doesn't matter to Muslims. They probably think its hot.

Aisha was still playing with dolls but mohhamad didn't care. He was attracted to kids after all..

In that culture it was normal. And the same evil exists in mans heart still


ebf0e9  No.700593

>>700554

>I think I am a reincarnation of one of the 12 disciples.

Well that's haram


3308de  No.700596

>>700590

It depends on the sect/school of thought. The Hanafi (Sunni) and Jafari (Shi'a) schools put the female age of consent at 9. All other branches of Islam put the AoC at 15.


3308de  No.700598

>>700596

Addendum: The Maliki have 17 as age of consent.


abf2eb  No.700632

>>700587

Aye, I am not a prophet like muhummad. I have merely spoken with the holy spirit and been given guidance that other people may have not thought of.

I havent been approached by Gabriel himself, and probabally wont until the end times. I am merely a messenger, sent to guide christians back to the right path, as I am formerly Christian.

Hadiths are manmade interpretations of the truth, remember only the Quran is truly holy. Allah intentionally decieves many Muslims into committing bad deeds because their hearts were already impure.

I wish christians would understand this

But atleast you didnt immediately ban me this time


abf2eb  No.700633

There have been many, many messengers have been sent throughout the world at different points in time, like myself who have been sent to wake people up, although they are not literal "Prophets".

Some are more influential than others. Some are more right than others. Not all of them are even necessarily muslims. (atleast not consciously)

Examples:

>Buddha

>Aristotle, Socrates, other Greeks etc.

>Joseph Smith

>Jordan Peterson

>Nietzsche (Unironically)

There are many many more. They all embody the truth. They all seek the truth. They all seek to find the good in the world and want to improve it

Becoming a Prophet of God is easy. Embody and speak what you undoubtedy know to be true. You know truth because it stands out from all falsehoods.

The Quran is the Gospel of truth. The guiding light for people to make their way through the world

All of them bring

The Antichrist has been sendin


abf2eb  No.700634


053c36  No.700641

>>700632

t. prelest


b906c2  No.700645

>>700634

I'm sure you meet Muslim standards of being a prophet by being a nonsensical illiterate and delusional narcissist. 🤣

Get a load of this self-styled Apostle to the Channers. 🙄


fbc392  No.700714


fbc392  No.700716

>>700549

no it doesn't. but I can tell you it's way healthier than yours.


5380c4  No.700743

>>700645

According to his posts on /islam/, he just converted to Islam a week ago. And here >>700632 he says he's a Quranist (Islam's version of KJV-onlyist). Gotta love LARPers.


5f5c5b  No.700760

File: f51c1ba5156fac6⋯.png (414.09 KB, 1355x416, 1355:416, Tasty urine.PNG)

>>700716

Yes it did pic related. Another example of muslims not reading their own scriptures https://muflihun.com/nasai/1/307

Here are three takeaways.

First, Muhammad’s solution to sickness was drinking camel urine. Why don’t doctors today recommend camel urine for stomach problems? Because camel urine doesn’t help with stomach problems, though this doesn’t stop Muslim merchants from selling camel urine as a cure. One merchant even got caught selling bottles of his own urine as camel urine. Think about how much urine has been consumed by the Muslim community over the centuries because of Muhammad.

Second, Islam’s most trusted sources claim that the Muslims who drank the camel urine left Islam, scattered Muhammad’s camels, and killed his camel-herder—after the camel urine cured them. But is this really believable? Why would they leave Islam and become enraged after following Muhammad’s advice and being cured? Isn’t it far more likely that they drank the camel urine, became even more sick, realized that Muhammad was a false prophet who made them drink camel urine, and scattered Muhammad’s camels in a fit of rage?

Third, Muhammad had his followers chop the men’s hands and feet off and burn out their eyes with hot nails. The men were then left in the heat to die and were refused water. One of them was biting at the ground out of thirst. Muslims often claim that these apostates were tortured, mutilated, and left to die because of what they had done to Muhammad’s camel-herder. But Anas, who narrated the story, was specifically asked whether they were tortured, mutilated, and left to die because of some sin, or because of kufr (their return to unbelief). Anas said that they were tortured, mutilated, and left to die for kufr—unbelief.

Welcome to Islam—the religion that tells you to drink camel urine, then, when you get even sicker and decide to leave, chops off your hands and your feet, burns out your eyes with hot nails, and leaves you to die as you bite the ground from thirst


911871  No.700771

>>700760

>Yes it did pic related.

Thats hadith tho. I mean, technically they should follow it, since Mo said so, but its still not the Koran. Koran, however, has gems like this:

>83. They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, “I will rehearse to you something of his story.”

>84. Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.

>85. One (such) way he followed,

>86. Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: “O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.”


73df4b  No.700775

>>700771

what's the objection here? not muslim, just curious. Is it the metaphorical language about the setting of the sun? Cause that's a fedora tier critique.


c76967  No.700777

>>700760

>Islam’s most trusted sources

which sources?


b7c020  No.700797

>>700775

>Metaphorical language

No Patrick, you can't use this every time you want, especially considering that Koran is clear and literal according to Koran.

Also

>It was narrated that Abu Dharr said: “I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah while he was on a donkey, and the sun was setting. He said: ‘Do you know where this (sun) sets?’ I said: ‘Allah and his Messenger know best.’ He said: ‘IT SETS IN A SPRING OF WATER


fbc392  No.700805

>>700760

no it doesn't (as someone already said).


61f253  No.700807

>>700797

That's not true. Surah 3:7 says there are clear verses and others are unspecific, and those who want to sow discord will cling to the unspecific verses.


911871  No.700816

>>700807

Hey, lets post full verse, shall we

>It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

In short "If you disagree with my retarded headcanons, you disagree with Allaaaaaaaaaaaah!"

And yet:

>Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted. (11:1)

>[Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. (6:114)

>A Book whose verses have been detailed, an Arabic Qur'an for a people who know,(41:3)

Asides this, There is still a hadith, where Muhammad confirms that sunset part is literal

P.S. https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/sura3_7.htm


dcdb94  No.700911

File: 390490211a4d828⋯.png (181.3 KB, 317x267, 317:267, raugh.png)

>>700716

>>700805

>the Koran says to drink camel's urine

<no it doesn't. but I can tell you it's way healthier than yours.

>Posts source

<no it doesn't (as someone already said).




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