/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>696849

what is the next part of that commandant?

<5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

You can make pictures, statues, etc of anything you want, you just cannot worship them as you do God. This is a prohibition against idolatry, not creating artwork. Thus God can work miracles through man-made artifacts, as in the bronze serpent, but it is not okay to worship said serpent, as worship is due to God and God alone.

>>696851

>This is a prohibition against idolatry,

Then why did God subsequently tell Moses to make a bronze snake that had the power to heal? And why a snake?

>>696851

i should clarify what i said before some smart-aleck shows up to twist my words.

>you can make pictures, statues, etc of anything you want

I would like to clarify that this does not include pornographic images, as those fall under adultery and are also proscribed by the Ten Commandments.

>>696849

The "carved image" in the hebrew more commonly means Idol or graven image, so what the text is stating don't worship or "venerate" any object other than God.

Since no-one did those things to the bronze serpent in Numbers 21, they didn't break any rules.

>the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.

So far as we know this didn't occur during the days of Exodus, but wouldn't put it pass the Hebrews of worshiping the serpent once they settled in the promised land (if you understand their history). regardless, Moses was in the right to obey God and build the bronze serpent.

>>696855

>Since no-one did those things to the bronze serpent in Numbers 21, they didn't break any rules.

yet, but it was inevitable that they would. It can heal them from snake bites. If God wanted them healed, why have them look at a bronze snake?

>>696853

God did that because He wanted to. He didn't command idolatry. He didn't tell them to worship the human artifact. And they didn't until later on. I don't know why He chose a snake. He just did. The statue did not have the power to heal, God used it as a 'conduit', if you will, for His power.

>>696855

veneration is not worship.

>>696858

>And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Anticipation of the crucifixion apparently.

>>696860

look, there is something going on here that you don't understand. You can't just say "God did it because he wanted to" and leave it at that when they way that God did it is meant to explain something.

>>696861

So a serpent represents Christ? Both Jesus and Lucifer are referred to as the morning star and both of them are symbolized with a serpent?

Now you've opened a whole other can of worms.

>>696858

Since God didn't explain Himself, I can only give you my speculation. Maybe to remind them of their sin and how powerless to resist it without God?

>>696860

Distinction without a difference. Might I remind you papist that Exodus 20:4-5 states that you shouldn't adore or serve any created thing?

Oh sure, but God sees lots of things coming. He knows we're sinners and that we do awful things we aren't supposed to do. But he hopes we'll make the right choice.

It's almost as if the command isnt against graven images, but more about the worship of them.

Hmmm really jogs that ol' noggin

>>696864

It's not a can of worms at all, friend. Christ and Satan are both also represented by the lion. Christ is the Lion of Judah, and Satan is the lion wandering around looking to devout whom he may (1 Peter 5:8). A lot of symbols have a double significance. Adam and Eve brought sin into the, and Christ, the new Adam, and Mary, the new Eve, brought life.

>>696872

>devout

oops, meant devour

>>696872

>Mary, the new Eve, brought life.

Not catholic.

it was big tigga

>>696870

You're just skipping over the inconvenient section. God clearly commanded two things in the quoted scripture-

1. Don't make graven images

2 Don't worship graven images.

>>696883

missing the forest for the trees etc

>>696884

Both Moses and pharoah turned their staffs into serpents. What's the deal with serpents?

>>696885

There's a lot of symbolism around serpents. They represent craftiness, but they also represent wisdom ("be ye as wise as serpents"), they represent poison but they also represent medicine, etc. Very interesting from a symbolic standpoint.

>>696885

I think it's a symbol of divine authority bestowed upon the prophets. Moses' specifically turns into a nachash, the term for snakes used to describe the serpent in the garden and Aaron's turns into a tanniyn, a term used to describe Leviathan.

>>696851

The part that says "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them" is really important to note. Most Catholics and orthodox like to distinguish between dulia and latria, but biblically speaking there is no distinction and both are prohibited unless towards God. So even the Mary worship is forbidden in the bible.

First commandment, of which Exodus 20:4 is part, was prohibition against idolatry. And Idolatry is defined as "Giving divine adoration (latria) to creature as to God (those creatures being named idols)".

Serpent was icon of Christ. Icons of angels were icons of angels. And reverence passes through icon too the prototype. And that we should pay reverence, although different, to Christ and those above us is obvious.

>>697041

But when you bow down to statues of Mary and go further as to ask her for intercession. It goes a bit above a simple display of reverence and respect.

>>697123

>But when you bow down to statues of Mary

Do you not bow to kings? Or prophets? Did not David bow to his friend? Did not Solomon built a throne to his mother?

>ask her for intercession.

Did not Paul asks to pray for him? Did not Peter? Did not we sing in Psalms for angels to pray to God? Do you not ask you mother and friends to pray for you?

Reverence to image passes to prototype as Christ proved by Ceasar image on a coin.

>>697041

you reminded me of Daniel when he appeared with the Nebuchadnezzar king bowing before the king but not his golden statue

>>696979

increible! good information what's about seraph nehustan?

>>697146

but mary is dead

>>697151

not him, but I think seraph is the same word as seraphim (a class of angels), although I don't know the literal meaning of the word. I'm pretty sure nehushtan means copper or brass or something.

>>697154

Have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him. You therefore do greatly err.

>>697151

>>697157

"Seraph" means fiery. The Seraphim angels are referred to as such because of their allearance in Isaiah's vision. In the context of the seraph nehushtan, literally "burning serpents", it is thought to refer to the burning sensation caused by their venom.

>>697170

Deuteronomy 18:11

>>697148

Are you referring to the episode with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego? The king here explicitly told people to worship the statue.

(Although I suppose it would still be wrong to bow down before the statue as a way of honouring the king, even if no worship were involved - not because it would itself be wrong, but because in Babylonian culture the onlookers could think that there is worship involved, and so have their faith shaken)