/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>691419

>The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as principle, and, through the latter’s timeless gift to the Son, from the Father and the Son in communion (St. Augustine, De Trinitate, XV, 25, 47).

We do not deny the Father is where it begins.

Disregard any Orthodox polemics that use the term "Latins" to describe Catholics.

>>691421

This.

>>691421

What should we say? Romans doesn't sound as good and Roman Catholics is a pain to type over and over. Latins works

>>691424

Catholic is just fine enough. That’s like calling Orthodox the “Greeks”.

>>691427

They aren't Catholics though. Greeks and Russians doesn't work because neither patriarch has immediate jurisdiction over the other, but if someone was saying Greeks I would get it pretty quick and not virtue signal about it

>>691429

Okay, how about we refer to them as Western Christians while you guys are referred to as Eastern Christains, so our panties won’t get in a bunch.

Mods, please don't delete this thread, I'm typing something big.

Bump out of interest. Not really an argument but I read/saw (can't remember) an Orthodox point out that the way we Catholics have the Trinity a lot of people seem to think the Holy Spirit lesser than the Son as opposed to equal.

What I'm writing is turning out to be really long. I'll post a download link to it instead of flooding the thread with posts, once I'm done. I hope it will be useful for discussion.

https://mega.nz/#!mYY3WQpB!YDDUN320VOOCHII_Itvk28iw5qIv8c1juAJ24rAT0mM

I copied down quotes from saints up to the council of Florence (plus the doctrinal definitions of Lyons II and Florence since they're important for Catholics, and show how the final attempt at reunion went.

>>691487

Unfortunately I can't read this until tomorrow. But looking forward to it buddy.

This thread is somewhat pointless because the modern Catholicism is a reed shaken by the wind. With the Jews the rulling Catholics become Jews, with the Monophysites they are Monophysites, with the Orthodox they are Orthodox, with the homosexuals they are homosexuals, etc. Thank God, this is not so with the simple Catholics, but it is true about those making the official Catholic policy.

With respect to the "Filioque" when discussing the issue with Orthodox, they will tell you that the position of the Orthodox is true and that Filioque refers not to the origin of the Holy Spirit, but that the Holy Spirit appears to us from the Son. Which is ok from Orthodox point of view: the Holy Spirit originates from the Father (only) but He is Spirit of the Son and He is appears to us from the Father and from the Son and through the Son – the preposition really doesn't matter in this particular context (as Palama explains).

But all this doesn't mean the Catholicism has changed its theology. It only means it no longer has firm theology.

>>691488

I'm just noticing there are a lot of typos. I didn't sleep in a while, okay. Bear with me here.

The way you're putting it makes it sound as if the Son and Holy Spirit didn't always exist

>>691492

>>691487

Holy crap 14 pages, just having a look now. Looking forward to it.

>>691487

That was an extremely good read. Thank you very much for taking the time to compile it, will be sure to save it for later use in discussions.

Highly suggest other anons in this thread to take a look at it. The anon has compiled an unbiased look at the filioque and put a bunch of quotes from Church Fathers mutual to both the Orthodox and Catholic faith.

>St Gregory of Nyssa

>It is as if a man were to see a separate flame burning on three torches (and we will suppose that the third flame is caused by that of the first being transmitted to the middle, and then kindling the end torch). . . . But if there is really no hindrance to the third torch being fire, though it has been kindled from a previous flame what is the philosophy of these men, who profanely think that they can slight the dignity of the Holy Spirit because He is named by the Divine lips after the Father and the Son?

Would have to say this is my most appreciated analogy from it all.

Bump.

>>691451

Only if they havent read what the Cathecism clearly teaches

The filioque imbalances the trinity. The father is the begettor, the Son is begotten and the spirit spirates/proceeds from the father, The father is unbegotten..They all have unique distinctions.

If the father and son generate the spirit then their distinction is confused, and puts the spirit beneath both.

Also the pope as Christ on earth implies he sends out the holy spirit.

>>691430

There are western orthodox and eastern papists.

Papist works. Or romanist.

>>691427

Well, catholic is a greek word and roman didn't mean from the city of Rome as the average person thinks it does today. The eastern roman empire citizen called himself roman.

It's like calling kikes and the Talmudic Palestine State jews and Israel. Or Zionists, semitism. Funny how both control language like that.

You can't even describe both of them in a politically correct manner without attributing veracity to their usurpation of orthodox cults.

That's why any man free from language bondage ought to call kikes kikes and papists papists. I'm still to find a good name for so called State of Israel.

>>692068

I’ll just call you heratic then, even things out for us.

>>692121

Well this brings me back to my original point, calling us Romans doesn’t make sense. Let’s just call each other Catholics and Orthodox, makes things easier. We shouldn’t be lazy, just type the whole damn word instead of coming with nicknames. Back to the thread topic, what was it again?

>RC's, the Filioque isn't just a problem of "semantics"

Of course it isn't.

It's a meme issue made by the Orthos to Schism.

necessary bump

>>692375

From what I remember it went something like this.

>circa 700 AD

>Eastern churches freak out over the west openly teaching the filioque.

>Things get tense between east and west

>St Maximus resolves the issue by saying that when the west says "and the son" they mean "through the son", The Father is the sole source of the Spirit's existence, he just comes to us through the son.

>problem solved.

>circa 900 AD

>pope gets asked the insert filioque into the creed by Charlamagne to set up grounds for attacking the East.

>Pope openly refuses and writes on silver tables the original creed with no filioque.

>circa 1050

>The pope finally caves in to filioque pressure and alters the creed.

>East goes "what the winnie the pooh", you don't change the creed without consulting us.

>excommunicate each other.

>circa 1400

>Council of Florence explicitly says the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and the Son is a co-cause for the Spirits existence.

So it started off as a meme issue but now its spiralled into an actual issue.

>>701277

>circa 900 AD

>Charlemagne